Veritas Combination Plane Tuning

[William Fretwell]

Previously frustrated with this I put in on the shelf for a year.

Trying again, rounded the nickers, sharpened them to 10,000. When you install them the ‘flat’ side goes out from the groove which creates a groove for shavings to collect. This pushes the blade out further and a wobbly edge to the groove results.
Considering putting epoxy in the bottom of the groove with cling film and installing the blade over it to fill the gap that the shavings collect in. Has anyone tried this?

The other issue is the friction, lots of it. Going to polish the outer metal faces that rub on the groove being cut. The wooden fence needs to be larger and waxed.

Any other ideas?

[Kevin Hampshire]

I feel I should do something to try and help.

Should I PM my shipping address?

[William Fretwell]

Don’t let all those brass knobs get you excited!

[Derek Cohen]

Previously frustrated with this I put in on the shelf for a year.

Trying again, rounded the nickers, sharpened them to 10,000. When you install them the ‘flat’ side goes out from the groove which creates a groove for shavings to collect. This pushes the blade out further and a wobbly edge to the groove results.
Considering putting epoxy in the bottom of the groove with cling film and installing the blade over it to fill the gap that the shavings collect in. Has anyone tried this?

The other issue is the friction, lots of it. Going to polish the outer metal faces that rub on the groove being cut. The wooden fence needs to be larger and waxed.

Any other ideas?

Hi William

Please do a search on this topic. There have been two recent threads in this regard. The common point being that I do not recommend using the set screw for the nickers. Mine protrude a smidgeon from the sides and only because they were bent by the screw. Also note that the nickers are only needed for cross grain work. That is a small part of the tasks used for with a combination plane. So retract them. And wax the contact areas (as you would with any plane).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

William; regardless of those fancy brass knobs, my advise would be sell that boat anchor and try and get some of your money back.

regards Stewie;

[William Fretwell]

I would certainly like it to work. The resistance when making a 1/4” dado for a drawer bottom in white oak is quite remarkable compared to any other plane I have. The guides are responsible for this. Wax or oil helps a little but polishing or corrigating them may help more. The nickers are a lost cause I fear as jammed wood makes them wander, rounding them makes the ‘nickering’ better. They may be essential for cross grain but should help with the grain also.
Going to try polishing first.

[Derek Cohen]

I would certainly like it to work. The resistance when making a 1/4” dado for a drawer bottom in white oak is quite remarkable compared to any other plane I have. The guides are responsible for this. Wax or oil helps a little but polishing or corrigating them may help more. The nickers are a lost cause I fear as jammed wood makes them wander, rounding them makes the ‘nickering’ better. They may be essential for cross grain but should help with the grain also.
Going to try polishing first.

William, are you using the nickers for a groove for a drawer bottom? If so, that is your problem. Retract the nickers - they are ONLY for cross grain work (i.e. dados). What you call a dado is a groove (grooves run with the grain).

Did you read my previous email?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

William
1) if you are not working cross grain no need for the nickers.
2) you are describing a groove for a drawer bottom, not a dado (cross grain)
3) I suspect because of the resistance you describe that the skates are set too wide for the blade in use
4) if the skates are set too wide all of the things you describe would occur
5) I suggest you take time to review the instructions for your plane.

I feel strongly that the reason that combo planes get a bad rep is they don’t get set up properly. I don’t own this particular plane but have had the opportunity to experiment with one. It works a treat.. I use my 45 often and would not want to not have it. When set up properly combo planes work as easily as dedicated planes with the exception of possibly lighter cuts have to be used because of mouth opening is different than dedicated planes. Sharp and lighter cuts usually tame that.
Jim

[Mike Brady]

This may be more of a statement about my skills than about a particular tool, but the plane in question is the only one I ever returned to a manufacturer for credit (within their warranty period). My small plow plane gets frequent use, however.

[Warren Mickley]

The tool is set up very differently for a groove than a dado. If you set up as for a dado you will have almost as much of a mess as if you set up for a groove and tried to make a dado. We use nickers only for the dado. A lot of machine people use the word "dado" for both grooves and dadoes. For us the way we make them is so different that we could not mix them up.

For a groove the edges of the blade are what forms the side walls of your groove. The blade has to be outside the skates, otherwise the skates will rub (as you have discovered). If you put a straight edge across the skate at the bottom along the side it should be obvious that the blade protrudes. (Not just below the skates but outside the skates as well. It will actually work if the skate is quite a lot in from the edge of the blade.

The Lee Valley people might not have realized this but it is nice if the blade itself has some relief at the edge, so a slight bevel at the edge of the iron maybe 80 or 85 degrees is helpful to make a nice groove.

[Jim Koepke]

Before trying to reengineer your Combination Plane there are other things you should do.

First, get the nickers out of the picture.
Second, make sure the blade is proud of the skates, (this may be what you are calling the guides). For the plane to work properly the blade has to stick out from the edges a hair. If the skates (rails, guides, whatever one wants to call them) are set as wide or wider than the blade it is going to bind.

One of the blades for my Stanley #45 has an improper grinding on one side and will not project from the side and causes this problem every time. If you have a different blade, try it on a piece of scrap to see if it could be the problem of a single blade.

You may also be able to reach out to a LV store near you, if there is one, for help.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Jim is giving you good advice.

Remember, we have had these discussions before. There are many who have learned to set up the combo plane. It is very straight forward once you understand the process. No luck involved.

Dados or housing joints: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCombinationPlane-dados.html

... and a little more: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasComboDadoMore.html

Grooves: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Veritas%20Combination%20Plane-grooves.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Yes Derek the nickers were barely showing. I believe they were working until wood jammed behind. I will retract them totally.

[William Fretwell]

Yes Jim the blade is just proud of the skates. I will experiment with this ‘proud’ amount but the resistance will likely remain.

[William Fretwell]

Thanks Warren I can add a small relief when I next sharpen the blade. Getting this to work should be a fun learning experience!

[Jim Koepke]

After all of the above, how thick of a shaving are you trying to cut?

See if you can get the plane cutting with a minimal shaving thickness before advancing the blade. Once you have the plane taking a good shaving, the blade can be advanced for a thicker shaving.

There are surely those who can take off 1/16" on each pass. Leave that for the weight lifters. Most of the time my shavings aren't much more than 0.010". If you just get to, it not much time is needed to plow a groove 1/4" or more deep.

jtk

[Christopher Charles]

Hi William,

Good advice above for sure. I'll add that I've found my joinery planes (I also have the LV skew rabbet) to be by far the most fiddly, which sort of makes sense because they need precision in more than one plane (geometric plane that is...). A bit like a sports car-- amazing when well tuned and well driven, but (disastrously) unforgiving when not.

I have the combo plane and really like it for grooves. I do score with a gage oftentimes if the grain isn't perfectly straight and also start with a thin shaving and then go for thicker.

Best,
Chris

[William Fretwell]

Jim, think my shavings were modest but my target groove was 1/2” in my practice. They varied quite a bit from stroke to stroke. Toying with the idea of dimpling the outside skate faces to reduce friction. If I dimple first then polish it will be easier.

[Tom M King]

I don't understand why there is friction from any part of the plane, other than the iron. This is a picture of me plowing a 1/2" groove with an old Stanley 55, that I'm sure is in much more need of many things than that new combination plane. There is no need to push down hard on the plane, and that goes for any plane.

[James Pallas]

William, if you are having problems using the plane and can not diagnose the problem I don't think you modifying the plane will do anything but just make it worth less when you give up and sell it. Lots of good advice given to you last year and this time as well. Read the book take some good advice. Dimples and epoxied in nickers are most likely not a cure.
Jim

[William Fretwell]

Tom there is friction from the fence, the bottom of the skates and the sides of the skates, plus the cutter of course. I waxed the fence and it soaked it up like a sponge.
James I will read the book again but the LV demo guy they set me up with had no more luck than I did. At this point the money is not a factor I would rather modify it up the ying yang in an attempt to understand it. That’s my R&D background.

[Jim Koepke]

Tom there is friction from the fence, the bottom of the skates and the sides of the skates, plus the cutter of course. I waxed the fence and it soaked it up like a sponge.
James I will read the book again but the LV demo guy they set me up with had no more luck than I did. At this point the money is not a factor I would rather modify it up the ying yang in an attempt to understand it. That’s my R&D background.

If you can not get it to work and the folks at LV can't get it to work maybe it is time to appeal up the chain of management to see if they have someone who can trouble shoot the plane or exchange it for one they can at least get to work.

One thing to check would be to make sure the fence and both skates are all parallel. It only takes one of them being slightly out to cause problems.

jtk

[Tom M King]

That friction shouldn't amount to anything unless you are pushing hard with the plane against the wood. I have heard of people waxing planes, but I have never done it, and have planed wood for many hundreds of hours. The plane body needs to only kiss the surface of the wood. Pushing hard is just extra work. The iron should be the only part, to amount to anything, that needs force applied to it.

Also, look at those chips in the air in that picture. They are only chips, instead of a long curl, because the grain must be rising sharply ahead of the cutter. I'm not pushing really hard, but the stroke does have some momentum behind it before the iron contacts the wood. If you are pushing down really hard with the plane, and trying to ease into the cut with the iron in contact with the wood, I can see where it would seem like there is too much friction. That old 55, with all the nickel plating off of it from sweat, must have many factors more friction than a fancy, new one.

[lowell holmes]

I have found Lee Valley to be extremely accommodating. I bet Rob Lee can help.

[William Fretwell]

Some progress!
When you cut a 1/4” groove as the fence descends it reduces the ability to stop the plane tilting right. There seems no reason the top of the fence should be level with the skates. I flipped the fence over so it was 3/8” above the skates. This seemed to improve control but you loose at the bottom end, so I made a new fence. It is 3/8 above the skates and restores the original depth plus 1/8”.
I also made it 2” longer at each end. Control is improved. The friction issue both, forward and backwards is bothersome. I honed the outside faces, 800 then 6000, then 10,000. That also seems a little better. Comparing the back stroke with and without the blade in place suggests half the friction is the back edge of the blade. Tapering it to 80 degrees as suggested earlier is very hard but did round the edge a little.
I do think the handle is too high, it has too much leverage which fights the skates and fence so my next project is to replace the handle with a large knob that straddles the support with a fitted groove an inch deep and keeps your hand far lower and keeps the force forward not down so the fence can do it’s job.

The very variable cutting action is still a mystery, I wonder if the bottom of the
skates ahead of the blade should be raised slightly.
408599

[Tom M King]

I've never thought about it, but I don't think I back up in the groove. If I do, neither the iron, nor the plane is bottomed out.

I would like to get my hands on one of these planes, but have no need to buy one with all the old planes I own.

[John Schtrumpf]

Some progress!
When you cut a 1/4” groove as the fence descends it reduces the ability to stop the plane tilting right. There seems no reason the top of the fence should be level with the skates. I flipped the fence over so it was 3/8” above the skates. This seemed to improve control but you loose at the bottom end, so I made a new fence. It is 3/8 above the skates and restores the original depth plus 1/8”.
I also made it 2” longer at each end. Control is improved.
Yes, there is a difference between a "Plowing" fence and a "Rabbeting" fence. When rabbeting, a fence that clears underneath the skate(s) and blade is needed. When plowing, a fence that comes above the bottom of the skate(s) is best. Your making another wood fence for plowing is a good idea.

The Veritas Combination Plane comes with a rabbeting fence, the Veritas Small Plow Plane comes with a plowing fence. You can see the difference in the relationship between the skate(s) and fence in these two diagrams. One is of the Veritas Combination Plane, the other is of the Veritas Small Plow Plane.

Note: For making small rabbets, the Veritas Small Plow Plane has a notch in the fence to clear underneath the blade.

[Kevin Hampshire]

William,

Am I understanding that you push forward making the planing cut, and then pull the entire plane backwards through the cut?

Not saying That’s wrong, I have never done that with any of my planes or hand files etc., but I am open to other ideas.

[Derek Cohen]

William, the photo shows you making a 1/4” (or so) groove using both skates. Remove the second skate and only use one. The double skate set up is only for wide blades. The extra skate will be causing unnecessary friction.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Kevin the recommended procedure is to start planing at the far end in small stages and work backwards. Leaving the plane in the cut feels more natural and when you are well into the cut pulling it out is far more work. When you pull it backwards there is a partial lift going on.
Derek I will try as you suggest but keeping both skates in the cut was an attempt to keep the thing level. The merest adjustment of the depth of cut has dramatic results and when you have it set for a fine cut it will just stop cutting; seemingly for no reason. With only one skate I fear the cutting variability will be far worse but I will try it.
I have lots of planes that I get to work beautifully, none are as perplexing as this one!

[Derek Cohen]

William, aha .. you are using the second skate to balance the blade and keep it square in the cut. That is where your problems springs from.

Lose the second skate. The aim is to balance the plane and keep the cut square using one skate only. It is not like riding a unicycle. No circus trick needed :)

The balance will come with practice. For now, place a large square (e.g. 12" combo square) where you can use it as a reference for vertical.

The plane will stop cutting when the groove depth reaches the depth stop. Also, setting the depth of cut too finely may not enable it to project below the skate, and then it will not cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Well Derek, tried with the one skate. The instructions make it sound optional “ to lower the weight”. It is compulsory for the small blades!
Most informative as I discovered that the small blade with both skates it moves! Yes it twists despite the retaining knob as it’s too low down. This explains the cessation of cutting! It also explains the crazy resistance as the twisted blade is now cutting the side of the groove in both directions!

With one skate and the small retaining knob all is good. I do like my new fence, I grooved it to reduce friction.
408730
I have an appreciation for the high quality of the engineering of the plane. One small issue is the brass knobs securing the rods, when you adjust one end of a rod the other often falls off. The area of contact is very small on the rod, perhaps a larger knob would increase the torque enough to lock it properly.

[Warren Mickley]

On the Stanley 45, for 1/4 inch groove, we put the two skates right next to each other, then center the 1/4 iron so that it protrudes on each side. I measured just now; the skates are .233 apart and the iron is .261 wide. So there is about .014 clearance on each side. We use the single skate for 1/8 and 3/16 grooves.

[William Fretwell]

On the LV combination you can do the same thing for the 1/4”, the skates go together and the blade protrudes a smidgeon each side. The blade retaining screw ‘just’ reaches the blade edge but it’s too low down to stop skewing of the blade during use. The blade skews and gouges a slope to one side of the groove you are making. Hence the resistance and consequent failure to cut. All looks good but it is not. Removing the second skate is essential.