corrugated shaper heads

[jim mills]

Ive always been a brazed cutter head user, and have sent my custom stuff out, but am wanting to start doing small runs by myself for obvious reasons. Time, cost, etc. My question is can I buy a 4" tall corrugated cutterhead, and use 4" or smaller knives in it, or should I buy a 2" & a 4" cutterhead? TIA

[David Kumm]

What shaper and spindle? Dave

[Mel Fulks]

One thing to consider is that when you must cut from the bottom of your work ,the tall head might not drop low enough
under the table. The manufacturers have to be so carefull about liability. When I have found it neccesary I have used corrugated blanks or just pieces of wood. Obviously you have to use same thickness steel if useing blanks.

[Jared Sankovich]

I was always told to match the head to the knife and that you shouldn't use knives much smaller than the head.. however you can use a 3" knife in a 2" head (1/2" max stickout top and bottom) though you loose the reference surface of the head that way. Better to get mutiple sizes of heads (assuming you have a shaper capable of using an 3 or 4+ inch head)

[jim mills]

Shapers are T-130 1 1/4" spindle machines.

Also wondering about dual angle 4 pocket heads. Is it necessary to use blanks in the unused slots?

[Mel Fulks]

I only use the blanks if the head won't go on spindle. Just using two knives sometimes distorts the head and keeps it from
fitting on the spindle.

[Jeff Duncan]

If you use the shaper a lot, you'll likely end up with multiples anyway. I started with a 2" then quickly added another as I started doing a custom cope and stick profile on interior doors. No sense in changing knives all the time. Then I added the 4" for a job and my largest is a 5" My opinion for what its worth is buy what you need for the job at hand. These days it only takes a couple days to have something shipped, so not a problem. Next job comes in that you want to keep in house buy the head sized for the project and use it for whatever you can. When another job comes along that requires something bigger.... buy another head. I only used brazed tooling for cope and stick cabinet doors. Everything else is either corrugated or steel for a Euro head.

good luck,
JeffD

[jim mills]

Thanks jeff. That makes the most sense.

[Kevin Jenness]

You will find that manufacturers recommend filling in unused slots with blank knives. Think about what it means to say " Just using two knives sometimes distorts the head and keeps it from
fitting on the spindle." Not filling the blank slots invites trouble, especially with large projections. Here's a link to one vendor's setup guidelines https://www.globaltooling.com/pages/product-instructions-corrugated-cutterheads

[Jared Sankovich]

I never really saw the point for dual hook heads. Knives ground for 12 degrees don't cut the same profile when run at 20, so you either need two sets, or the ability to grind in house to take advantage of both hook angles.

[Mike Kees]

What about heads that have four slots all the same angle ? My four inch high head is an FS Tool head like this. I am going to run this with two profile knives and two blanks,mostly to save money on getting knives ground.

[Larry Edgerton]

I never really saw the point for dual hook heads. Knives ground for 12 degrees don't cut the same profile when run at 20, so you either need two sets, or the ability to grind in house to take advantage of both hook angles.

The two hook angles are an either/or situation. one angle for soft woods, one for hard, blanks in the unused slots.

[Jared Sankovich]

The two hook angles are an either/or situation. one angle for soft woods, one for hard, blanks in the unused slots.

Yeah, I get that in theory, but how many people actually stick to that and match the angle to the wood for shaper work? 20 degrees cuts cleaner and has better edge retention, no downside unless you start tearing out sections. Schmidt doesn't even list 12 degree single hook heads (though I'm sure they make them)

My point being most people wouldn't opt to run 12 degrees until they had issues running at 20, and at that point you need new knives, or better stock.

[Mel Fulks]

I disagree that the mfgs rules are always valid. Lawyers write that stuff. I once called Schmidt and naievely gave them
my "rules" for using the old slotted collars. The guy told me I was right and added the lawyers told them they were
better off saying nothing beyond "be careful". The best rule for commercial shaper stuff is don't let an idiot use it. A good
rule too is never walk away from the shaper before the set up is complete ,but I've seen that done. Fortunately the knives
only hit the guy who made the hazard.

[Darcy Warner]

Yeah, I get that in theory, but how many people actually stick to that and match the angle to the wood for shaper work? 20 degrees cuts cleaner and has better edge retention, no downside unless you start tearing out sections. Schmidt doesn't even list 12 degree single hook heads (though I'm sure they make them)

My point being most people wouldn't opt to run 12 degrees until they had issues running at 20, and at that point you need new knives, or better stock.

I always stick with that. Knives get used for shaper, sash sticker and a couple moulders. Right grind for the right degree pocket for the correct lumber means tooling lasts longer and can be used on multiple machines.

I also always run blanks in unused slots.
That means 3 blanks in my 6 knife heads, unless I run 6 and joint them.

[Joe Calhoon]

I use corrugated for short runs on the shaper. We have a reputation locally for short runs of matching historic moulding on the old houses. Customer always buys the knives if I don’t have a profile that works. Some we run on the W&H but prefer the shaper as I can do it in one pass and the DC 40 feed is easy to rotate. W&H good for some though.

I just use 4” heads and add blanks for short knives. I have a 2 knife 12 degree head, (my least favorite) a 20 degree 4 knife head use mostly on the horizontal shaft of the CNC tenoner and a new 15 degree head that is now my favorite. I think it is a good all around head for the shaper.

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[jim mills]

So Joe, do you dedicate Knives to the appropriate angle head, or do you mix and match depending on the task at hand? I would hate to think I need two sets of knives depending on what type of wood I would be shaping.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jim, most of my knives were made for the 12 degree head. I have been running these in the new 15 degree head with no noticeable difference in cut quality. The profile may be a little different but for what I am doing it doesn’t matter. I don’t use these for profile - counter cuts. The 20 degree head has specific knives for the tenoner and I don’t use them in the other heads. No Idea how they would work.

From here forward I will have new knives made with 15 degree hook angle for the new head.

[jim mills]

Who makes the 15 deg head? Is having a knife ground at 15 deg hook angle simply a matter of specifying 15 deg hook angle? Would any knife shop be capable of that?

[Mel Fulks]

Jim, when you order a head you just specify angle. When you outsource knives you specify grind angle, but if you don't specify
they will sell you something! Some might check with you first. They all have machines that adjust to specified angle.
Some will not grind side clearance even when you specify it, best to tell them you will not accept them without it.

[jim mills]

Thanks Mel. Interesting on the side grind. I can see how a primitive profile grinder would be incapable of side grind. I wonder if it is hand done, or requires a more sophisticated machine?

[Mel Fulks]

Jim, the grinding machines tilt in both directions. Five degrees seems to be common. They even have automated machines, but I've never seen one. For the old square head moulders the grinding was done by hand, even the side clearance. Possible there were grinding machines for those that I just have not seen. Running the square head stuff
was often a life time job with each operator training his successor .

[Joe Calhoon]

Who makes the 15 deg head? Is having a knife ground at 15 deg hook angle simply a matter of specifying 15 deg hook angle? Would any knife shop be capable of that?

Jim,
my new head is a Zuani. Not sure if the 15 degree hook angle is a European thing or just specific to that company.
Mel pretty much summed it up. Some will ask and others don’t. Better to specify your hook angles with the knife grinder. I have been using Hot Knives for some of my corrugated. They are not the cheapest but are top notch if you are looking for precision and options for steel. A lot of companies do this type of work and I sometimes use others for short runs I will know will never repeated.

[Larry Edgerton]

I bought a Wadkin profile grinder, but have not had the time to learn how to use it yet. Looking forward to playing.

[brent stanley]

Ive always been a brazed cutter head user, and have sent my custom stuff out, but am wanting to start doing small runs by myself for obvious reasons. Time, cost, etc. My question is can I buy a 4" tall corrugated cutterhead, and use 4" or smaller knives in it, or should I buy a 2" & a 4" cutterhead? TIA

Jim, have you thought about using euroblocks instead of corrugated? Nothing wrong with corrugated, but they usually take much thicker steel and sometimes a bit more expertise to set in the head. The thicker steel permits greater projection, but that's only helpful if you need it. Euroblocks are handy for the type of work you describe and piles of cost effective knives are available off-the-shelf.

B

[jim mills]

Brent, yes, I've considered the euro block, but can you get custom knives for them? That would be a must for me.
What is a "hot knife"?

[brent stanley]

Brent, yes, I've considered the euro block, but can you get custom knives for them? That would be a must for me.
What is a "hot knife"?

Absolutely, I do it all the time. The thinner steel makes it within the range of smaller shops to grind their own steel too. I could theoretically grind my own corrugated, but I'd probably go broke on grinding wheels because the steel is so thick, so any of my corrugated I get done for me. With a small profile grinder, I grind my own knives for euroblocks sometimes, but even then I usually have it done for me.

B

[Jared Sankovich]

Jim,
my new head is a Zuani. Not sure if the 15 degree hook angle is a European thing or just specific to that company.
Mel pretty much summed it up. Some will ask and others don’t. Better to specify your hook angles with the knife grinder. I have been using Hot Knives for some of my corrugated. They are not the cheapest but are top notch if you are looking for precision and options for steel. A lot of companies do this type of work and I sometimes use others for short runs I will know will never repeated.

Schmidt's moulder heads are 15 degrees.

[Jeff Duncan]

You know I've never had a set of Euro knives ground. I know they do them, but just never even thought about it, just order corrugated, or sometimes modify an existing knife on the bench grinder. I need to run about 24k lf of flooring next week so will be having knives made up. I'm going to talk to the guy who does my knives and see how the pricing stacks up between the two. If they can match multiple sets to set in the head exactly the same it may be worth having the Euro head do the job. Figuring I'll need several knife changes even if I use carbide on the corrugated head, so maybe half a dozen sets for the Euro head.... but...it may save time on alignment if I can swap knives without touching the adjustment of the head..... something I'm going to think on a bit more.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jeff, it’s hard to beat the low cost of corrugated for a short run but 24 k of flooring would dictate carbide and moulder for me.

I have had custom knives made for the euro blocks. I would not waste time on the low cost steel that is stock for those.
Hot Knives recently made custom 45 degree knives for one of mine to insert a edge banding in thick doors to hide the lamination. I had another company try to make these and they couldn’t get the 45 to come out accurate. Hot Knives used good 5mm HSS for the knives. 5 mm will fit in these heads in place of the 4mm. They said they could also do carbide for these. The cost worked out to about 10 or 20% more than corrugated for the HSS. Worth it though if changing out knives often and needing alignment. Their hole tightness seemed a little better than the stock knives also.

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[peter gagliardi]

24k feet of flooring without a molder, or even a set of dedicated flooring heads like Schmidt sells is really brave Jeff.
Thats gonna be some hours!!
Best option long term would be the Schmidt flooring head- knives are mirror image and flippable. 4 cutting edges on one set of inserts.
That is what I now run on my molder when doing flooring.
They also end match well with the tenoning table.

[brent stanley]

You know I've never had a set of Euro knives ground. I know they do them, but just never even thought about it, just order corrugated, or sometimes modify an existing knife on the bench grinder. I need to run about 24k lf of flooring next week so will be having knives made up. I'm going to talk to the guy who does my knives and see how the pricing stacks up between the two. If they can match multiple sets to set in the head exactly the same it may be worth having the Euro head do the job. Figuring I'll need several knife changes even if I use carbide on the corrugated head, so maybe half a dozen sets for the Euro head.... but...it may save time on alignment if I can swap knives without touching the adjustment of the head..... something I'm going to think on a bit more.

I've only ever ground them myself or had Whitehill do it for me but I expect a good shop would be able to index off the pins for you and do the job.....it's not rocket surgery. I have had a few sets made for me for use in either man made materials or long runs in oak and had the knives tipped in carbide. 3000lf in softwood is not uncommon for the good plain steel in euroblocks (triple that for carbide perhaps) but unfortunately the most common knives available in NA are the dollar store variety 40mm or 50mm ones that are low grade steel. They have their place, but not good for long runs and the pin holes are sloppy compared to the proper thing. I bought a whole bunch of blanks in the good steel and am slowly going through them.

24klf of flooring is going to fill a few dust bins!

[jim mills]

Brent, can you be more specific on which knives are good, and which are dollar store variety? I see whitehill is in the UK. Not likely a practical source for me here in the US. Thanks!

[brent stanley]

Brent, can you be more specific on which knives are good, and which are dollar store variety? I see whitehill is in the UK. Not likely a practical source for me here in the US. Thanks!


The small knives commonly available in NA from Dimar, CMT and Tools Today (https://www.amanatool.com/products/shaper-cutters/insert-shaper-cutters/shaper-cutter-replacement-knives/pair-of-40mm-steel-knives-for-profile-pro-insert-shaper-cutters.html) are all mass produced by one company in Germany and retailed by many companies. Whitehill told me they won't carry them because of the poor quality steel, pin hole machining and grinding. I had a card-carrying machinist look at them and they are very poor, but that said, they have their role in my shop for short runs and I do own a number of them. Unfortunately I've been witness to people in NA forming opinions about euroblocks overall based only on experience with these K-Mart calibre knives, which is too bad. The manufacturers that cater to commercial producers typically use higher quality steel in their euroblock knives, Whitehill's is the same as their corrugated and I expect other manufacturers are the same.

I personally own both which allows for taking advantage of what each offers, but to be clear, corrugated can do everything that pin retained Euroblocks can do......they just may be less convenient and more expensive as Jeff mentioned above. There's no question that corrugated is more common over here for now, but when I need knives I just point and click on the web page, put in my CC information and they magically arrive in my mailbox in a few days.....my mailbox doesn't seem to care if they come across land or the Atlantic. Having both styles lets you optimize by taking advantage of the best each has to offer.

B

[jim mills]

I went to whitehill site, and found I had to complete order, and be invoiced before I knew the cost of what I was ordering.

[brent stanley]

I went to whitehill site, and found I had to complete order, and be invoiced before I knew the cost of what I was ordering.

Interesting, things have either changed, or it's different in the US. They need to add shipping manually I guess, but the total costs excluding shipping is in your shopping cart. You shouldn't have to pay their sales tax, just your own. To Canada, shipping often turns out to about 10% of the price in my experience, but that's all with very large packages.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

I went to whitehill site, and found I had to complete order, and be invoiced before I knew the cost of what I was ordering.

Jim,
see my post #30 above. I explained Hot Knives ( and probably some other US companies can make high quality replacement knives for the Euro blocks. They don’t use pre bored blanks but cut and do the holes in house. I don’t know if they use the water jet for this but they are very precise compared to the standard knives that come with these. They can also do carbide for these.They are overnight or 2 days to me. I have had a lot of experience ordering from Europe and air freight depending if it gets hung up in customs can be 2 days to 2 weeks. My order from Whitehill arrived in 9 days. And yes they don’t calculate shipping till the order is complete. I thought it was reasonable though.

I use a lot of different cutters, - braised carbide, high quality inserts for my everyday work, insert on sleeves for door, window and tenoning work and a variety of HSS limiter blocks and of course Corrugated. In my experience corrugated is going to be the best low cost solution for short runs.

[jim mills]

Thanks Joe. When I first read "hot knife" in your original post, I thought it was a type of knife. Now I see it's a knife shop, and not too far from me at that!

[brent stanley]

Jim,
see my post #30 above. I explained Hot Knives ( and probably some other US companies can make high quality replacement knives for the Euro blocks. They don’t use pre bored blanks but cut and do the holes in house. I don’t know if they use the water jet for this but they are very precise compared to the standard knives that come with these. They can also do carbide for these.They are overnight or 2 days to me. I have had a lot of experience ordering from Europe and air freight depending if it gets hung up in customs can be 2 days to 2 weeks. My order from Whitehill arrived in 9 days. And yes they don’t calculate shipping till the order is complete. I thought it was reasonable though.

I use a lot of different cutters, - braised carbide, high quality inserts for my everyday work, insert on sleeves for door, window and tenoning work and a variety of HSS limiter blocks and of course Corrugated. In my experience corrugated is going to be the best low cost solution for short runs.

I see they sell the cheap, round-back three holers too. They work out ok sometimes.

So how does it work if you want knives for a euroblock, are they all considered custom orders, or do they stock profiles too? I know for most companies the stock profiles are usually less than half of the price of ones ground to specs you provide.

[Joe Calhoon]

Not sure they sell the stock knives. I think the picture is there just so people know what they are talking about. They call them a two hole knife.

They are all custom and custom knives always cost more.
Looking at the knife I believe they cut the holes on a water jet.

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[brent stanley]

Not sure they sell the stock knives. I think the picture is there just so people know what they are talking about. They call them a two hole knife.

They are all custom and custom knives always cost more.
Looking at the knife I believe the cut the holes on a water jet.

Selling the rough, water-jet cut profiles that leaves the customer to finish grind is a really neat service they provide for shops set up to grind. I might use that service!

[brent stanley]

Just talked with Hot Knives actually and their prices are almost identical to custom knives, and they use the same grade of steel too. Custom is almost triple the off-the-shelf pricing for profiles which I think is pretty standard.

B

[jim mills]

So what, about $100 for a set of two hole knives?

[brent stanley]

So what, about $100 for a set of two hole knives?

Seems to be a little more than $2 per mm if that helps.....maybe $115 for a set of 55mm knives which is a common size. Seems very reasonable. They said they could do limiters too if you had a limiter style euroblock.

[Jared Sankovich]

Seems to be a little more than $2 per mm if that helps.....maybe $115 for a set of 55mm knives which is a common size. Seems very reasonable. They said they could do limiters too if you had a limiter style euroblock.

I pay $23/inch for corrugated m2 or custom ground 40mm Amana from my local guy. The corrugated is a better deal.

Here is a set I just had made last week, $80 to my door. Ill have to ask about custom blanks, since he cuts the profile on a water jet.
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As for cheap knives.. Yeah they are cheap, and for the roughly $7 i paid for most of them, they work great.
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[brent stanley]

I pay $23/inch for corrugated m2 or custom ground 40mm Amana from my local guy. The corrugated is a better deal.

Here is a set I just had made last week, $80 to my door. Ill have to ask about custom blanks, since he cuts the profile on a water jet.
408595

As for cheap knives.. Yeah they are cheap, and for the roughly $7 i paid for most of them, they work great.
408596

Lower price for more steel is always good! I bet the price difference has a lot to do with boring the holes if they start from scratch. I don't think water jet on it's own is accurate enough so they probably need to go in there as a second step and refine the holes but I could be wrong. When you buy blanks by the train load with the holes already bored, the cost equation changes.

I've been tempted by some job lot purchases of those smaller knives a few times, but never pulled the trigger. There will probably be one at my estate sale though. :)

B

[Jeff Duncan]

Ok so unfortunately my local guys don't do knives for the Euro head, they could source them elsewhere, just not something they do in house. More importantly they didn't think there was enough thickness to do a carbide knife with steel backer and I don't think I'd get very much linear footage per set of HSS so probably doesn't make sense. I'll have to try another company out if I want the Euro knifes ground so will keep in mind for next time.

I considered possibly getting the CG Schmidt flooring insert heads and having the inserts custom ground. Would certainly make changing cutters a breeze. It came down to price point though and I figured it would be almost double the cost of the carbide w/ steel backer for my corrugated heads. And realistically when am I going to use the heads again? This is the 1st flooring project I've done so probably not going to be getting a whole lot more. So I opted to get 2 sets of corrugated knives made in carbide, It'll take more setup time for sure, but I can live with that vs the extra cost. I'm hoping I can get the whole lot through in the two sets, if not I can have them do a quick touchup on them as the tongue is a wedge shape. They're going to make sure the knife ends are squared up perfectly and grind them so that in theory they'll set up easily.

Oh and FWIW yes, this is a large batch of material to run. I'm not milling from scratch though so no need for a molder, that would be too much for my shop to handle and honestly I couldn't compete in terms of cost. Without getting into too much detail, I'm actually taking existing engineered flooring with what looks to be a proprietary T&G, ripping in half, and re-milling the tongue and groove on the cut edge of the pieces. So while it's a lot of drudgery, it shouldn't be that bad. The worst part is going to be the physical movement of the material.

[peter gagliardi]

Well, good luck with the job.
Just be aware that some of the engineered flooring out there is finished with a product with Aluminum Oxide in it to help slow wear. Between that and the glues used to make the flooring, you may experience some frustration.

[Jared Sankovich]

Well, good luck with the job.
Just be aware that some of the engineered flooring out there is finished with a product with Aluminum Oxide in it to help slow wear. Between that and the glues used to make the flooring, you may experience some frustration.

I wouldn't let prefinished flooring close to any cutter i cared about or expected to last more than 100'. Ive killed enough saw blades just cutting for installs to know enough to stay away (in this context)

[Jeff Duncan]

Thanks Peter, I'm going to need it. Brought it in the shop today, 8 pallets 30"d x 87"l x 36"h.... I barely have room to work! I'll be watching the flooring carefully as it comes out of the shaper to monitor wear. The last batch they had run by another shop had some quantities that suffered a lot of tear-out and fuzzy grain. I want to make sure the cut stays clean so I'll probably slow down the feed rate and if that means an extra sharpening in between batches then I'll have a second set of knives ready to go. I feel it's better that than letting the glue lines abrade the carbide too much and ruining the knives and possibly finish cut.....we'll see though.

No worries on finish as this is raw flooring. After I'm done I send it back to the flooring guys and it gets sent out of state for finishing....in oil;).

[Brian Ross]

I hope you are using a set of knives that is designed for flooring as opposed to a standard set of T & G knives. Flooring knives have the lower part of the grove shorter than the top part. With regular T & G knivesthe slightest high spot in your floor and you will not be able get the flooring tight. I have laid hardwood commercially and discovered this when someone milled their own flooring. I apologize if you all ready knew this.

[Jeff Duncan]

I hope you are using a set of knives that is designed for flooring as opposed to a standard set of T & G knives. Flooring knives have the lower part of the grove shorter than the top part. With regular T & G knivesthe slightest high spot in your floor and you will not be able get the flooring tight. I have laid hardwood commercially and discovered this when someone milled their own flooring. I apologize if you all ready knew this.


Thanks Brian, these are not typical flooring knives, could likely be a proprietary tongue and groove as they have a very distinct fit, when they go together the tops are just about perfectly flush and the joint is tight. I've laid a few types of flooring, (but FAR from an expert on it), and I've never seen this particular T&G setup before. It's going to be a lot of fun every time I have to change the knives out:o