Band saw blade size and burning

[Dan Gaylin]

Hi all,

i finally bit the bullet and got a new bandsaw, Jet JBS-14SFX. I am generally very happy with it but I have two questions:

First the saw seems to burn hardwood of 2-3 thick. I’ve tried different feed rates but it seems to consistently cause some burning. Any thoughts about why this would be? The stock blade is 5/8” deep by 116.25 long, 4 tpi, hook type, 025” thick. Burning happens whether crosscutting or ripping, straight or curved cuts, although it’s worse on curves.

Which brings me to question 2: thinking that the blade that came with the saw is probably not great, one thing I am going to try is replacing the blade. The spec sheet for the saw says it takes a 116” blade. But the owners manual says the blade is 116.25. I can find replacement blades that are 116.0 and 116.5. But not ones that are 116.25. My initial thought was to go with 116.5 to give me a little extra room, but then it occurred to me that since the spec sheet says 116, maybe 116 and 116.25 are interchangeable. Any thoughts here?

I emailed the blade length question to Jet and they have not replied.

thanks for your help!

-dan

[robert wiggins]

First things first, congrats on your new saw purchase. Be correct with with the blade tension and if that is correct it may be wise to buy a quality blade, and there are so many choices that can be confusing.

In general, manufacturers are so tight with their tooth set this burning doesn't surprise me. Table saw blades are equal in that fault but I guess we should feel fortunate too little tooth set in a band blade doesn't promote kick back as it does in table saw blades.

[George Yetka]

What is your main use of the bandsaw? Resawing, tight curved lines, etc?

[Lee Schierer]

1/4" of blade length is 1/8" of movement in your tension adjustment. Without knowing the actual length of your current blade it is difficult to determine if a longer blade would be a problem. Hopefully some other owners of the same model saw will chime in on what they buy.

[Dan Gaylin]

Thanks for the helpful replies. . I do everything with the saw: resawing, knocking the corners off of bowl blanks to make discs for turning, crosscutting dimensioned lumber and boards. Saw is properly adjusted and tensioned. Not a lot of tight curves. I kept my smaller bandsaw for that (old 10” craftsman’ bench top). In general does higher tension or lower tension lead to burning?

Robet, what do you mean by “tight with their tooth set”? I thought 4 tpi on a bandsaw with a 5/8 deep blade and a resaw throat of 13” seemed like a lot of teeth. The blade I am thinking of changing to is a Timberwolf 1/2” deep 3 tpi. It’s a new model saw so I’m not sure how many folks might chime in.

[andy bessette]

Get a 116" carbide blade.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
Get the 116" blade.

When choosing blades follow the 3/6 rule for TPI. No less than 3, no more than 6 teeth in the work. If you were cutting a 3" thick workpiece and used a 4tpi blade you had 12 teeth in the cut. The gullets were not deep enough to clear sawdust efficiently.

Note: the 3/6 rule does not apply to certain blades like the carbide Lenox tri-master or woodslicer blades.

If you are doing a tall resaw or working with thick stock and must violate the 3/6 rule, just use the lowest tpi you can. In a carbon steel blade this is probably going to be 3 tpi.

[robert wiggins]

Robet, what do you mean by “tight with their tooth set”? I thought 4 tpi on a bandsaw with a 5/8 deep blade and a resaw throat of 13” seemed like a lot of teeth. The blade I am thinking of changing to is a Timberwolf 1/2” deep 3 tpi. It’s a new model saw so I’m not sure how many folks might chime in.
************************************************** ************
"tight" meaning not enough set in my opinion. Measure the kerf and the blade blank. Half of that difference will be the approximate set in a tooth.

[Dan Gaylin]

************************************************** ************
"tight" meaning not enough set in my opinion. Measure the kerf and the blade blank. Half of that difference will be the approximate set in a tooth.

Thanks! And sorry for misspelling your name

[Dan Gaylin]

Thanks Edwin, that’s helpful. I was generally aware of this rule of thumb but the additional details are very useful. Why do you think the 116 is the way to go?

[robert wiggins]

Thanks! And sorry for misspelling your name

I didn't even notice. I have a niece that pronounced it like that when she was little so that really isn't new. Even being grown now she still remembers that and uses it once in awhile just to tease her uncle " Robet ".:D

[John K Jordan]

Do you have a bandsaw blade shop? One near here (in Knoxville, TN) will make blades to any length using Lennox stock. I take an existing blade and the guy duplicates the length. The cost is less than buying one elsewhere and he can usually make a blade while I wait. The Lennox web site will tell you if and what blade shops are closest to your area.

I mostly use 1/2" 3tpi Lenox steel blades for preparing turning blanks of all sizes and types, from pen blanks up to 12" thick, green and dry, soft and very hard woods. The "rule" about the number of teeth in a cut is a guideline but not useful for cuts in 12" wood. It also doesn't work with my Woodmizer bandsaw mill since it would limit me to narrow logs. I've used 4tpi blades on 12" thick wood with no problems - might have to slow down a little.

"Consistently" burning sounds really wrong. I would suspect not enough set in the teeth, dull blade, guides not adjusted properly, pushing too hard/fast, or tension too low. If tension is too low the blade can do a variety of bad things, for example bowing in the cut for thick wood. The tension indicator on most bandsaws is worthless - I use a blade tension gauge to be sure of the tension and I consistently have to use a much higher tension than indicated by the marks on every bandsaw I've had and tried. Before you do much else try increasing tension - for a 1/2" blade try the setting for a 3/4" or larger blade.

If you are not yet experienced with bandsaws perhaps you could get someone to look and try yours.

JKJ



Hi all,

i finally bit the bullet and got a new bandsaw, Jet JBS-14SFX. I am generally very happy with it but I have two questions:

First the saw seems to burn hardwood of 2-3 thick. I’ve tried different feed rates but it seems to consistently cause some burning. Any thoughts about why this would be? The stock blade is 5/8” deep by 116.25 long, 4 tpi, hook type, 025” thick. Burning happens whether crosscutting or ripping, straight or curved cuts, although it’s worse on curves.

Which brings me to question 2: thinking that the blade that came with the saw is probably not great, one thing I am going to try is replacing the blade. The spec sheet for the saw says it takes a 116” blade. But the owners manual says the blade is 116.25. I can find replacement blades that are 116.0 and 116.5. But not ones that are 116.25. My initial thought was to go with 116.5 to give me a little extra room, but then it occurred to me that since the spec sheet says 116, maybe 116 and 116.25 are interchangeable. Any thoughts here?

I emailed the blade length question to Jet and they have not replied.

thanks for your help!

-dan

[Zachary Hoyt]

In my 18" Jet I use 132 and 133" blades, both work fine. I can't even recall which one it's supposed to have. There's a range of travel for the upper wheel, and whether your current blade is nearer the tighter or the looser end may help determine what length you want. I buy whichever length is cheaper when I'm buying on eBay or something like that.
Zach

[Chapel Eastland]

Do you have a bandsaw blade shop? One near here (in Knoxville, TN) will make blades to any length using Lennox stock. I

JKJ

Can you tell me the bandsaw blade shop in Knoxville? I'm down I-75 S and have been ordering my Lenox blades from Bandsawdirect. They're good, but take about 10 days from order to delivery. Having someone closer might save me in a pinch.

Thanks.

[Dan Gaylin]

This is all really helpful. Thanks for the replies.

Carbide blades are tempting but so pricey!

John, I’m not an expert but I’m also not new to setting up band saws, and I’m pretty certain I have it correct. In fact I did exactly what you indicated when I noticed blade deflection with resawing: the tension gauge is set at 3/4” for a 5/8” blade. Helped with the deflection but not the burning. Should note it is not a massive amount of burning but it’s there.

Im pretty sure the stock blade is really crappy so hopefully the new Timberwolf will solve the problem.

[John K Jordan]

Can you tell me the bandsaw blade shop in Knoxville? I'm down I-75 S and have been ordering my Lenox blades from Bandsawdirect. They're good, but take about 10 days from order to delivery. Having someone closer might save me in a pinch.

Thanks.

Chapel,

It's Holston Gases. They deal primarily in gas but sell welding equipment and supplies and the bandsaw blades. There's a blurb here: https://www.holstongases.com/

Duane who runs the bandsaw blade shop comes in early and leaves at 3pm so I you want to stop by and get one made while you wait it's best to call first to make sure he has that blade stock on hand and has the time to make one. He's made one or two for me while I waited (just took a few minutes) but when I wanted quantity I ordered them then picked them up the next day or so. I have also called in the morning and he had a blade ready for me to pick up by the time I got there.

If he doesn't have the stock you need it may take a couple of days to get it. Some stock he doesn't normally carry, for example the 1/2" x 3tpi flexback blades I like so the last time I had to buy a 100' coil - my saw uses 11'10" so I got 8 blades from that box. (I typically get that many anyway since I hate to not have a spare or two. Since I resharpen 8 blades might normally last me a year or so.)

He doesn't make carbide blades so when I wanted one he had to order it from Lenox, but his prices was significantly cheaper than anywhere I could find online.

In all the years I've been buying blades there I've had only one break at the weld. He made me a new one at no cost.

Holston Gases used to be south of the river but they are in a new facility now. Take 40 to I-275 north, get off at the Baxter Avenue exit, turn right, and they are the first thing you come to on the left. The bandsaw blade shop is deep in the building, so if I carry in a blade to match or want to talk to the guy about something special, I ask at the counter and he comes up to the front or someone takes be back to the shop. Nice people. I bought all my welders and plasma cutter there as well as other tools and supplies.

JKJ

[Chapel Eastland]

Chapel,

It's Holston Gases. They deal primarily in gas but sell welding equipment and supplies and the bandsaw blades. There's a blurb here: https://www.holstongases.com/

Duane who runs the bandsaw blade shop comes in early and leaves at 3pm so I you want to stop by and get one made while you wait it's best to call first to make sure he has that blade stock on hand and has the time to make one. He's made one or two for me while I waited (just took a few minutes) but when I wanted quantity I ordered them then picked them up the next day or so. I have also called in the morning and he had a blade ready for me to pick up by the time I got there.

If he doesn't have the stock you need it may take a couple of days to get it. Some stock he doesn't normally carry, for example the 1/2" x 3tpi flexback blades I like so the last time I had to buy a 100' coil - my saw uses 11'10" so I got 8 blades from that box. (I typically get that many anyway since I hate to not have a spare or two. Since I resharpen 8 blades might normally last me a year or so.)

He doesn't make carbide blades so when I wanted one he had to order it from Lenox, but his prices was significantly cheaper than anywhere I could find online.

In all the years I've been buying blades there I've had only one break at the weld. He made me a new one at no cost.

Holston Gases used to be south of the river but they are in a new facility now. Take 40 to I-275 north, get off at the Baxter Avenue exit, turn right, and they are the first thing you come to on the left. The bandsaw blade shop is deep in the building, so if I carry in a blade to match or want to talk to the guy about something special, I ask at the counter and he comes up to the front or someone takes be back to the shop. Nice people. I bought all my welders and plasma cutter there as well as other tools and supplies.

JKJ
Many thanks for the help. I'll give them a try.

[John K Jordan]

John, I’m not an expert but I’m also not new to setting up band saws, and I’m pretty certain I have it correct. In fact I did exactly what you indicated when I noticed blade deflection with resawing: the tension gauge is set at 3/4” for a 5/8” blade. Helped with the deflection but not the burning. Should note it is not a massive amount of burning but it’s there.



May or may not be enough, depending on the saw. I checked my 18" Rikon - to get good tension on the 1/2" blades I had to set the tension indicator to over 1".

If you know someone with a tension gauge maybe they could check for you. I bought a Starrett tension gauge but Iturra Design sells one of they make for a lot cheaper.

Iturra doesn't have a web site but can be reached by phone or email:
KALLL@comcast.net
904-642-2802 • Work
4636 Fulton Road, Jacksonville, Fl 32225-1332

There is also a free way to measure the tension accurately, described here by John TenEyck:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250388-Bandsaw-blade-tension&p=2640804#post2640804
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250388-Bandsaw-blade-tension&p=2640833#post2640833

JKJ

[Chapel Eastland]

May or may not be enough, depending on the saw. I checked my 18" Rikon - to get good tension on the 1/2" blades I had to set the tension indicator to over 1".

If you know someone with a tension gauge maybe they could check for you. I bought a Starrett tension gauge but Iturra Design sells one of they make for a lot cheaper.

Iturra doesn't have a web site but can be reached by phone or email:
KALLL@comcast.net
904-642-2802 • Work
4636 Fulton Road, Jacksonville, Fl 32225-1332

There is also a free way to measure the tension accurately, described here by John TenEyck:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250388-Bandsaw-blade-tension&p=2640804#post2640804
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250388-Bandsaw-blade-tension&p=2640833#post2640833

JKJ

If you want to learn an incredible amount of information about bandsaws, contact Iturra Designs at the above email address and request a catalog. More than a catalog, it's valuable and insightful knowledge that won't be found elsewhere. I received the catalog about 5 weeks ago and have read it twice through. Iturra knows his stuff and generously shares it.

As I have studied many of the typical complaints about bandsaw blades, I'm convinced that inadequate tensioning is the culprit for 90% of the problems. The typical tension checks by the deflection or flutter methods leave much to be desired for optimum performance. While some do successfully employ such methods for their particular work style, it's far from accurate and most likely very low from the tension required for excellent performance.

A tension gauge provides data, not subjective or anecdotal guesses.

If those who experience continued problems used a tension gauge to assess the acutal amount of tension that run, they would be shocked to discover how far below the manufacturer's recommended tension they are. Also they would discovered that with larger blades, their bandsaws can never reach those recommendations.

That's why using a smaller blade, but correctly tensioned, will long-term out perform a larger blade in relative sharpness, quality of cut, and longevity.

Spending your money for a tension gauge will save you long-term in costs of blades, poor performance, and aggrevation.

[lowell holmes]

I have the 14" Jet with a riser block and I run a 1/4" blade. I have never experienced burning. I have never cut more than 1 1/2" thick wood.

Check this site. https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US739G0&p=replacement+blades+for+bandsaw

[Dan Gaylin]

Thanks for the additional tips. Chapel I will contact iturra designs and look into a tension gauge. I need to see if there is a local blade manufacturer in the Baltimore-Washington area. Lowell this is a new model Jet saw. 13” throat. Thanks for the link.

[John K Jordan]

Thanks for the additional tips. Chapel I will contact iturra designs and look into a tension gauge. I need to see if there is a local blade manufacturer in the Baltimore-Washington area. Lowell this is a new model Jet saw. 13” throat. Thanks for the link.

Local blade shop:

Enter your location on this page.
https://www.lenoxtools.com/FindRetailer/FindDistributor.aspx
Scroll down the list on the right and look for the "LENOX Certified Weld Center" icon. I see several in your area.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

...The typical tension checks by the deflection or flutter methods leave much to be desired for optimum performance. While some do successfully employ such methods for their particular work style, it's far from accurate and most likely very low from the tension required for excellent performance.


Some people do tension adequately from those methods but I think some hit on the useful tension by accident and some by long experience and trial and error. The problem I see is these are difficult skills for the newer user to learn on his own and not much easier if shown. I've tensioned my 1/2" blades on the Rikon so much and with occasional checks with the gauge that I can almost hit the numbers by feel now - even if I taught someone else to feel the tension it wouldn't necessarily transfer to a different saw or blade.

I think woodworking and woodturning clubs would do well purchasing a gauge for members to borrow. I'm certainly willing to bring mine for local shop visits (but I won't lend it!)

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

I have the 14" Jet with a riser block and I run a 1/4" blade. I have never experienced burning. I have never cut more than 1 1/2" thick wood.


Those 14" saws with risers are capable of incredible performance when tuned up a bit. Besides my bigger Rikon I have a 14" Delta with riser. I spent some time making the wheels coplanar and upgrading some tension parts. (purchased from Iturra)

I used the Delta for years to cut up to 12" log sections into turning blanks and to resaw, up to a 12' long Doug Fir 2x12. With the smaller motor you just have to make slower cuts but it will certainly do the job. I suspect the newer 14" saws are even better but I haven't used one.

JKJ

[Edwin Santos]

Thanks Edwin, that’s helpful. I was generally aware of this rule of thumb but the additional details are very useful. Why do you think the 116 is the way to go?

Dan,
I recommended 116" because it is a common size for the 14" class of bandsaw plus you noticed it referenced in the spec sheet. I think it's better to err to the smaller size, but honestly your adjustment range should accommodate the range of size choices you are deliberating.

Turning to some of the other responses you have received, I will be a heretic and share my opinion that tension is important to a point, but way overblown in discussion forums. I have seen a philosophy that more is better with tension and not only is this misleading, but beyond a certain point, excessive tension can represent harm to your saw. I don't think you need to throw away money on a tension gauge, and whatever you do, beware of the high tension springs that Iturra sells. Instead I would refer you to some of the resources Fine Woodworking has put out from Michael Fortune on his methods for setting up a bandsaw, choosing blades and all aspects of use. I took a class with him, came back to my shop, followed his recommendations, and have never looked back. And the saw he was using in the class was a Jet 14". https://www.finewoodworking.com/2011/04/07/how-to-set-up-a-bandsaw

The tension you need is just enough for the saw to cut and perform to your satisfaction. Any more tension than that is unnecessary and mostly theoretical. In your case, based on the problem you have described, I will be interested to hear if your cutting experience is improved by changing nothing other than the blade to the Timberwolf you mentioned (though since your saw is new, I would recommend aligning it in the way Michael Fortune demonstrates because it's possible your blade is not centered in the kerf). If you try them and find Fortune's techniques do not work for you, then you can try Louis Iturra's recommendations, which will probably involve buying products he sells.

[Chapel Eastland]

"I don't think you need to throw away money on a tension gauge,"

I want to know how much tension is on the blade for the same reason I use a dial indicator to set jointer knives, to check table saw blades, and use a ruler to be accurate in measurements.

As to Michael Fortune, there's nothing in his video that isn't good advice and he also says in another video that blade drift is not a real thing, rather incorrect bandsaw setup. Let's not make Mr. Fortune anti- tension gauge.

As I said earlier, the flutter and deflection method may work for some and more power to those that do so. But flutter and deflection tells you nothing measurable about blade tension.

It's antecdotal at best, not data. And for every one person who finds it works for them, there's 99 others who use those methods without a clue and have problems.

It's like kicking a tire to determine air pressure. I prefer to use a tire pressure gauge. While others are guessing, I know.

[Geoff Crimmins]

Because of the burning, you might want to double-check that the teeth on the blade are pointing down. It is possible to get the blade twisted inside out and then install it with the teeth pointing up, which could cause burning. Not that I've ever done that, of course. :)

--Geoff

[John K Jordan]

Because of the burning, you might want to double-check that the teeth on the blade are pointing down. It is possible to get the blade twisted inside out and then install it with the teeth pointing up, which could cause burning. Not that I've ever done that, of course. :)

--Geoff

Yikes, will it even cut at all like that?

I once put a chainsaw chain on backwards. Before I tried to use it a friend politely asked me if I'd cut anything yet with that chain.

JKJ

[Nick Decker]

Like John, I can't imagine an upside down blade would cut at all. Maybe about as well as a butter knife.

[Dan Gaylin]

John, Chapel, Edwin, Geoff,

Thanks for the followups including the link to the local blade makers and the link to the Michael Fortune set up article. The blade is not upside down but I do see how that could happen! The Timberwolf arrived today and I will install it per the manual and see if the problem is fixed. If not I’ll consult the Fortune setup and see if anything is wrong. I’ll explore greater tension. Then I’ll report back. Thanks again for all the help!

[Chapel Eastland]

This sticky is one of the best in any woodworking forum, and even better that it deals with bandsaw blades. I suggest you read it all from beginning to end. You'll be far wiser on the otherside. Don't forget to contact Iturra Designs either and request their catalog.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?149862-Lets-talk-bandsaw-blades!

[Zachary Hoyt]

The only way to mount a bandsaw blade with the teeth backwards is to turn it inside out. I ran one once that way, for a moment, it was when I switched to a new sharpening service for our sawmill blades and the guy turned all of the blades inside out to sharpen them on his equipment. It only takes a moment to flip them around, and he does a lot better job making the blade sharp with no burrs than the old (now closed) place did. It did sort of cut backward, but not well at all.
Zach

[Dan Gaylin]

Well, good news to report. The new blade solved the problem. Despite the fact that it has fewer teeth per inch and is 1/2” instead of 5/8” it makes much cleaner cuts and resaws straighter. And NO BURNING. Very clean cuts on 4” thick hard maple. That must just be a terrible blade that the saw comes with. 116” worked fine. Thanks again everyone for your help and advice.

-dan

[Mike King]

As to Michael Fortune, there's nothing in his video that isn't good advice and he also says in another video that blade drift is not a real thing, rather incorrect bandsaw setup. Let's not make Mr. Fortune anti- tension gauge.

Except that he definitely doesn’t use a tension gauge and advocates only using enough tension to take the major deflection out of the blade. How do I know? I took a two-week workshop with him at Anderson Ranch and we went through properly setting up a bandsaw.

I seriously doubt that the burning is cause by tension, or a lack of it. The culprit is likely that the gullets are being overloaded, and that could be from an improper blade (not enough set, too many teeth, gullets too shallow, dull), improper technique (feed rate too high), or improper blade alignment.

[Chapel Eastland]

I said earlier (twice) that some people have success with their own methods. I also said that incorrect tension is a major problem with over tension (rare) and under tension (common). If everyone who used a bandsaw was Michael Fortune there would be less problems (perhaps) but correct tension remains a problem, particularly with beginnners and even many who have used bandsaws for years.

[Dan Gaylin]

I seriously doubt that the burning is cause by tension, or a lack of it. The culprit is likely that the gullets are being overloaded, and that could be from an improper blade (not enough set, too many teeth, gullets too shallow, dull), improper technique (feed rate too high), or improper blade alignment.

I realize that you guys may be just discussing this in generalities at this point, but in case you missed my previous post, the new blade (with proper set-up, and a similar approach to tension that I was using with the previous blade) solved the problem entirely.

Chapel, I agree with the band saw sticky (thank you for pointing it out to me) on every point, including the fact that the blades made of silicone steel (e.g., Timberwolf, which is the replacement blade I installed) are very nice initially but dull quickly. I wanted to try this particular blade because I am familiar with them and could quickly get my hands on one in the right size.

I should have noted that the stock blade I replaced was essentially new (I got the saw in February and haven't used it much, in part because it was frustrating me with the burning). So the blade wasn't dull. And it wasn't installed incorrectly. It was just a terrible blade. So my recommendation to anyone who has bought a new Jet bandsaw recently and is dissatisfied with the results is to throw away the blade that came with it, and install a new one from a reputable blade manufacturer.

[Edwin Santos]

Dan,
Thank you for reporting back with the solution to your original issue. Glad to hear you've solved your problem and you're ready to roll.

Edwin

[Chapel Eastland]

The blade that came with my Grizzly was of value only to setup the bandsaw, make sure it worked properly, make a few cuts, then off it came. I buy Lenox Diemaster 2. Initially more expensive, but very cost effective long-term.

I wish Lenox made a 3/16 and 1/8 but they don't so I'm looking to Starrett for those.

Glad your problem was solved.