Opinions...Is glue enough?

[fred everett]

Building 11' ribboned Sapele ships ladder. Sides are 5/4 by 6". The 9 treads are 18" wide 5 3/4" deep and 7/8 thick. Treads will sit in 1/2" deep stopped dados.

Obviously all face to end grain glue joints, but would you trust going without fasteners?

I was thinking screw/plug 4 treads (top, bot, middle) but want to get opinions. Thanks.

[William A Johnston]

Fred

I think I would definitely use some type of fastner. I've never built a ladder. But with the dados that will give you some strength for the treads but I'd be concerned about any side to side movement.

Sapele looks like a beautiful wood. Almost resembles a Mahogany. It has a Janka hardness of 1400 so it's around the hardness of Sugar Maple. I'm sure you won't get any vertical flex.

I think if it was me building it I like your idea of a fastner and a dowel plug. Of course you could use a contrasting wood for the plugs and add some character to the ladder.

Bill

[Jamie Buxton]

No, glue alone is not good enough. It is an end-grain glue face, there's a fair amount of racking force, and the consequence of joint failure in use is severe.

I'd add a 2"-tall stretcher under all treads, so the step cross section is T-shaped. Then I'd use three mechanical fasteners -- screws, miller dowels, etc -- at each end of all steps.

[John TenEyck]

Traditional ladders have a metal rod that goes under the tread secured with nuts on both sides which provides both support for the tread and holds the joints together. Jamie's solution will give you an even stiffer tread, but I wouldn't rely on screws in end grain to keep the joints together. Miller dowels or cross dowel bolts would be a more robust solution.

John

[fred everett]

No, glue alone is not good enough. It is an end-grain glue face, there's a fair amount of racking force, and the consequence of joint failure in use is severe.

I'd add a 2"-tall stretcher under all treads, so the step cross section is T-shaped. Then I'd use three mechanical fasteners -- screws, miller dowels, etc -- at each end of all steps.

You guys always teach me something new..... I never heard of miller dowels, but they look very useful.

Not sure I understand the need to a stretcher as at 7/8" Sapele is rock solid and will not flex when treads are stepped on. Would you add this to prevent ladder from pulling apart?

[Jamie Buxton]

You guys always teach me something new..... I never heard of miller dowels, but they look very useful.

Not sure I understand the need to a stretcher as at 7/8" Sapele is rock solid and will not flex when treads are stepped on. Would you add this to prevent ladder from pulling apart?

The stretcher's purpose isn't to make the tread stiffer. Its purpose is to make the tread taller where it joins the ladder rail. The added height gives more leverage against racking forces.

[johnny means]

I've built dozens of small ladders for children's beds in a manner very similar to what you describe, except my mortises where always 3/4' or deeper. IMO, 1/2" isn't much better than a butt joint I never had a ladder fail.

[Jamie Buxton]

.. but I wouldn't rely on screws in end grain to keep the joints together. ..

It is true that an end grain screw has less holding power than a face screw for the same length of screw. So make the endgrain screw twice as long, or three times as long.

[Jim Becker]

Personally, I'd be more comfortable with the addition of a sturdy metal fastener countersunk and plugged. If this is for a true marine application, be sure to use metal fasteners appropriate for that environment, even when they are hidden. The ladder I built for my recent bunk bed commission was glued but it also had sturdy #10 x 2.5" screws countersunk and plugged for added strength over time. "Long" fasteners is a good thing. Proper pre-drilling is essential.

[Pat Barry]

Building 11' ribboned Sapele ships ladder. Sides are 5/4 by 6". The 9 treads are 18" wide 5 3/4" deep and 7/8 thick. Treads will sit in 1/2" deep stopped dados.

Obviously all face to end grain glue joints, but would you trust going without fasteners?

I was thinking screw/plug 4 treads (top, bot, middle) but want to get opinions. Thanks.

No, you need something to TIE the two sides together in several places (top, middle, bottom). Glues and screws as you decribed is no good.

[fred everett]

Personally, I'd be more comfortable with the addition of a sturdy metal fastener countersunk and plugged. If this is for a true marine application, be sure to use metal fasteners appropriate for that environment, even when they are hidden. The ladder I built for my recent bunk bed commission was glued but it also had sturdy #10 x 2.5" screws countersunk and plugged for added strength over time. "Long" fasteners is a good thing. Proper pre-drilling is essential.

Thx. It's a loft ladder so no environmental issues. Seems long screws plugged is the consensus. Would you screw every tread? Obviously the goal is to not interrupt the beautiful Sapele ribbons....or interrupt as little as possible would be a better way to say it. Of course I don't want it to fall apart.

I have experience plugging Sapele....it is very tricky. Doable, but tricky with the way the ribbons change at different angles.

So I guess a new consensus question. Would you guys screw every tread?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If you don’t want anything showing on the outside of the rails, I suppose you could think about dovetailing the steps.

If you are using screws, then yes I would definitely screw every step. I have kids, and they have a way of making things move that are not supposed to move.

[Tony Bilello]

I have both built and repaired boat lots of boat laddersThe standard is usually 2 lag bolts on each side of the steps counter-sunk and plugged. You can get a plug cutter to fit an electric drill and make your own. I also always used the non-skid black stair treads which are quite pricey They are made for boat use. We have lived on my boat for over 20 years and I can tell you from experience, this project is not the place to cut corners. Actually, there is no place on a boat to cut corners, so to speak. I have always used white oak with a clear lacquer or a high grade marine varnish finish - no stain. And a high grade marine varnish is not something you can find in Home Depot. The lighter color will make the interior feel much bigger.

[Jamie Buxton]

Yes, trying to grain-match plugs on a chatoyant wood like sapele is very difficult. Instead consider a contrasting wood like wenge or ebony.

[Bill Dufour]

I would look at the photos of the San Francisco fire department ladder shop. I am sure they know how to make. proper ladder that will hold up for years.
Bil lD.

Looks like tie rod every forth rung or so with brackets at top and bottom. I am very surprised the rungs are round but it really is a non issue with ladder soles in their boots. I bought a pair of fire boots for pressure washing on a ladder and they have a ladder sole. No pressure on the arch at all with a steel plate inside the sole to spread the rungs presssure out.

https://hookandirons.com/blogs/hook-and-irons/8327104-the-san-francisco-ladder-shop

[Jamie Buxton]

I would look at the photos of the San Francisco fire department ladder shop. I am sure they know how to make. proper ladder that will hold up for years.
Bil lD.

Looks like tie rod every forth rung or so with brackets at top and bottom. I am very surprised the rungs are round but it really is a non issue with ladder soles in their boots. I bought a pair of fire boots for pressure washing on a ladder and they have a ladder sole. No pressure on the arch at all with a steel plate inside the sole to spread the rungs presssure out.

https://hookandirons.com/blogs/hook-and-irons/8327104-the-san-francisco-ladder-shop

I remember a show Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) did in that shop. At one point he was assembling those round rungs into the ladder rails. The rungs fit so tightly into the holes, he was pounding them together with a five-pound sledge. That kind of fit, on both ends of every rung, does provide a lot of anti-wrack stiffness.

[peter gagliardi]

If you use 2-3 screws with plugs through the stringers into the end grain of each end of the treads, of a #8 or#10 body size, and ONLY dado them in 1/4” and glue it, it will be as strong as you need. By a lot.
I would not dado any deeper, you need strength in the stringers, and you need room to countersink and plug, AND still have wood in the stringer between the screw head and the bottom of the dado.

[Tony Bilello]

Original Post Requirements: Building 11' ships ladder. Sides are 5/4 by 6". Nine treads 18" wide X 5 3/4" deep X 7/8 thick. Treads sit in 1/2" deep stopped dados.

Given the above info, I would make the stopped dados no deeper than 3/8"

Question: You are calling this a ship's ladder. What exactly will you be using this for?

[fred everett]

If you don’t want anything showing on the outside of the rails, I suppose you could think about dovetailing the steps.

If you are using screws, then yes I would definitely screw every step. I have kids, and they have a way of making things move that are not supposed to move.

My original design included dovetailing the steps. I know many of you cut dovetails in your sleep, but with my current skills I don't want to put myself through trying to get 36 cuts right.

I hear you on kids....in fact my 13yr old son will be the primary user of the ladder and he can destroy things quick.


Yes, trying to grain-match plugs on a chatoyant wood like sapele is very difficult. Instead consider a contrasting wood like wenge or ebony.

I am warming up to this idea. The nice thing is it wouldn't cost much as I could use pen blanks to make the plugs.


If you use 2-3 screws with plugs through the stringers into the end grain of each end of the treads, of a #8 or#10 body size, and ONLY dado them in 1/4” and glue it, it will be as strong as you need. By a lot.
I would not dado any deeper, you need strength in the stringers, and you need room to countersink and plug, AND still have wood in the stringer between the screw head and the bottom of the dado.

After reading everyone's opinions, I'm going to screw/plug each step. 1/4 vs 1/2 depth is something to think about considering 1/2 won't buy me strength.

[fred everett]

Original Post Requirements: Building 11' ships ladder. Sides are 5/4 by 6". Nine treads 18" wide X 5 3/4" deep X 7/8 thick. Treads sit in 1/2" deep stopped dados.

Given the above info, I would make the stopped dados no deeper than 3/8"

Question: You are calling this a ship's ladder. What exactly will you be using this for?


I agree on the dado depth....you guys have convinced to go shallower.

Loosely referring to it as a ship's ladder.....it will be used for a loft.

[andy bessette]

Yes, trying to grain-match plugs on a chatoyant wood like sapele is very difficult. Instead consider a contrasting wood like wenge or ebony.


...I am warming up to this idea. The nice thing is it wouldn't cost much as I could use pen blanks to make the plugs...

Negative on contrasting wood! Ugh! And negative on pen blanks! Using a Fuller plug cutter, cut the plugs from scraps of the same wood as the rails. The grain will match perfectly. You need the grain going in the same direction as the grain in the workpiece--NOT end grain! Also use the Fuller counterbore/countersink for making the plug hole.

I would dado 1/4" deep and use at least two fasteners per side, per step.

[Jim Becker]

Andy's plug technique has merit and with some careful consideration of the donor board to the workpiece, one can cut plugs for specific spots for best match by visually insuring that the grain and ribboning breaks match between the plug and the counterbore position. It takes time, but the end result can be nearly invisible. Using tapered plugs is essential for this. I use cutters I obtained from Lee Valley for this.

[Tim Bueler]

Negative on contrasting wood! Ugh!

I think Greene and Greene would disagree with you. ;)

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Tim in the sense that the style of the construction/room/furniture will influence greatly whether or not plugs are hidden or made contrasting. The latter could also include design elements like flush or raised and round or square as well as flush/flat or domed/pyramid in style. Contrasting would absolutely have to be carefully place for symmetry of look along the length/height of the ladder as even a minor deviation in spacing would be more noticeable.

[Jared Sankovich]

Why not just use wedged through tenons. Im not a fan of the metal cross bolt in furniture ladders.

[andy bessette]

...Using tapered plugs is essential...

Actually the preferred (Fuller) plug cutters make straight-sided, not tapered plugs. These are very slightly oversize for a tight fit. And they are tapped in until they bottom out in the counterbore, leaving no void. Fuller is the brand of choice of boat builders everywhere and we use a LOT of plugs.

[Allen Breinig]

Why not just use wedged through tenons. Im not a fan of the metal cross bolt in furniture ladders.

Yes wedged tenons would be my choice as well. If I didn't want any grain disruption on the ladder sides I would break out the Kreg jig and screw them together under the stair treads.

[fred everett]

Why not just use wedged through tenons. Im not a fan of the metal cross bolt in furniture ladders.

Thx Jared. WTT's were on my radar for a bit but I don't want to interrupt the long sweeping ribbons in the Sapele.


Yes wedged tenons would be my choice as well. If I didn't want any grain disruption on the ladder sides I would break out the Kreg jig and screw them together under the stair treads.

Contrasting plugs are now out. I may wind up using the Kreg. The underside of lower 3 treads won't be seen so Kreg's a no brainer on those. I'm good at toning with Trans-tint so if I'm able to tone Kreg plugs I'll Kreg all 9 treads. If not, I'll screw/plug the sides. Bought a USA made plug cutting kit years back that works very well. Can't remember if it cuts tapered or not but...I've used it on Sapele with excellent results.

[andy bessette]

...Kreg's a no brainer on those. I'm good at toning with Trans-tint so if I'm able to tone Kreg plugs I'll Kreg all 9 treads...

OMG, nooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Jacob Reverb]

Traditional ladders have a metal rod that goes under the tread secured with nuts on both sides which provides both support for the tread and holds the joints together. Jamie's solution will give you an even stiffer tread, but I wouldn't rely on screws in end grain to keep the joints together. Miller dowels or cross dowel bolts would be a more robust solution.

John

Maybe I'm anal, but I think I'd find a way to incorporate the metal rod John mentions that's used in ladders, pull-down attic stairs, etc. Ladders like this take a lot of abuse when you carry stuff up and down them, and when you start to lose your balance and rack/twist the ladder, etc. Just listen to the way they creak when you climb them. You wouldn't want anyone to get hurt, and in the case of an injury and claim, the insurance people are going to be real interested in how this ladder was constructed...

[Tom Bender]

A few thoughts;

11' is a long fall, cut no corners

The treads are 5 3/4 wide but make the tenons 4" to leave more wood in the stringer

Make double tenons 1 1/2" wide leaving 1" of stringer wood in the center

Now you can go back to 1/2" deep

Put the rod across under the tread, make it decorative with a fancy nut then paint it. A spray can of gold paint is cheap and will look good. Now you can forget about the plugs.

What will the user hold when climbing? Be sure he never gets a splinter, even when the ladder is old and no longer in great condition

[Al Launier]

My initial thought was also to use a metal rod (~3/16" dia.) under the treads to pull the sides together. If preferred, a slot (square or preferably rounded. i.e. bull nose router bit) could be milled to the bottom of the tread to accept the rod since the dado will be supporting the tread vertically. Since the sides are 5/4 there is ample thickness to c'bore & plug the holes at each end of the rod. This would add stiffness while hiding the rod.