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Joe Lanucha
04-10-2019, 6:23 AM
Hello,
I wanted to see what folks are using to monitor output CO2 power (80Watt Speedy 300) and how much you had to spend to get reasonable output
power measuremnets to monitur tube degredation over time?

Thanks,
Joe

Mike Null
04-10-2019, 7:46 AM
Joe

After 20 years in the business, that has never been a concern of mine. When the tube degrades it has been very rapid and you know it's time for a repair. You can rent power meters if you need to do that.

Kev Williams
04-10-2019, 11:54 AM
My 'power meter' is simple- Back when I bought my machine(s) and ever since, I've saved the settings that work for certain jobs. 14 years ago I found that 2 passes thru 1/8" Rowmark Ultramatte at XX power and XX speed just ever so barely cuts thru. To this day, the same settings cut thru exactly the same- as do all other settings over the years. If ever the laser DOESN'T get thru in those 2 passes, I know the tube is heading south ;)

Joe Lanucha
04-11-2019, 6:16 AM
Thank you for that input. I have a new Trotec Speedy 300 that I bought with an 80w head, but the tube says 156F. If you go to Iradion's website it says it is a 60watt head. Trotect says the head can be programmed for 60W or 80W and it is a proprietory thing. I want to be able to measure th output to make absolutely sure I have an 80w output with some headroom. Does anyone know about the 156F vs 158F and the claims that the 156F can be programed for 60 or 80W. To me it looks like they are trying to save money by not using and iradion 158F (80w) tube and maybe taking advatage of a 60w tube that say has 25 watts of headroom so it looks like an 80w head?

Thanks,
Joe

Mike Null
04-11-2019, 10:38 AM
Joe
I can't address that issue but my 80 performs like an 80 watt should. I previously had a Speedy 300 45 watt so I have a pretty good yardstick.

Bert McMahan
04-11-2019, 11:30 AM
I use one of these:

https://www.2laser.com/laser_power_meter_probe_and_laser_monitor

You blast the laser at the block for some certain amount of time (30 seconds or so, it tells you in the instructions) then wait 30 seconds, and read the power off the gauge. I've found it very helpful troubleshooting things- you can get calibrations between mirrors, so you can tell exactly how much power each bounce takes off, compare lens types, etc.

Scott Shepherd
04-11-2019, 11:33 AM
I seriously doubt anyone is trying to pull a fast one on you. They are doing exactly what they've always done with them. You are the first person I've ever seen question it and there's a lot of Iridion 80w tubes out there and no one's questioned it or had any reason to. I'd let it go. They aren't an organization known for trying to bait and switch people.

Kev Williams
04-11-2019, 11:33 AM
I have an 80 glass RECI that I can run some cut tests with a little later, it's output is pretty linear so it should be close; I can run a full power and 80% power test on some plex, I'll find the speeds to where the laser just barely makes it thru. I'll even shoot video so you can stopwatch the cut time and get your Trotec to match.. if your tube is at or near 80 watts, your cuts should be pretty close.

I'm pretty sure yours will match up pretty close, if not best my results... check back later :)

Joe Lanucha
04-15-2019, 10:09 PM
Bert,
Can you share your methods, meaning what type of laser test do you run and can you do it with a closed cabinet?
Thanks,
Joe

Bert McMahan
04-16-2019, 1:34 PM
Bert,
Can you share your methods, meaning what type of laser test do you run and can you do it with a closed cabinet?
Thanks,
Joe

Yeah, you do it closed cabinet. I usually do it with the beam defocused onto the black square part a bit. Send a line to the laser and set the speed to something crazy slow so it doesn't move much- you just need to keep the beam hitting the black square for a solid 30 seconds. After 30 seconds, stop the test, wait another 30 seconds until the needle stops moving, and you have your reading.

To check between mirrors, use some tape or zip ties or a dial indicator stand or something to hold the black square somewhere in the beam path you're trying to measure and run the same test. As long as the beam hits the black square (it's about 1.5"x2") for the target amount of time, it'll work fine.

Jerome Stanek
04-17-2019, 8:10 AM
Doesn't Trotec have a meter to rent

Joe Lanucha
04-18-2019, 6:54 AM
On new machines speedy 300 (80w) are folkes seeing 80w, or is there typically some headroom, meaning more output on new tubes?
Thanks,

Joe

Mike Null
04-18-2019, 10:12 AM
Joe
If this is such a concern why not spring for a meter?

Scott Shepherd
04-18-2019, 10:49 AM
Johnson Plastics lists it as available for rental. Laserbits used to rent them, JP bought LB and now they appear to offer it.

I still don't understand the concern. Some wording on some decal has led you to question the power output level. You are misreading the meaning behind the label. The 80 Iridion tubes run about 10% over when new, so it's likely near 90W. You have no reason to doubt that based on actual performance, only a decal. If it performs as an 80W would, then what's the issue?

Mike Null
04-19-2019, 7:31 AM
Joe
To add to what Steve says, I've found that the material settings provided by Trotec are pretty accurate. Try engraving and cutting some laminated plastic using their settings. If the work is good then I would say you got what you paid for.

Kev Williams
04-19-2019, 12:50 PM
Since the most expensive part of a 'western' RF-C02 laser is likely the price per watt, the want to know your machine's output seems reasonable to me! ;) But I agree it's unlikely you're getting shortchanged...

My recent LS100 acquisition comes to mind- My rep explained that Gravograph moved from Synrad to Coherent tubes just because of this issue; Synrad tubes would hit their stated wattage, but with very little headroom. Coherent tubes tend to run over stated wattage by quite a bit...The 35 watt Coherent tube in the LS100 was measured at 47 watts, and it's very noticeable in comparison to my 30 and 40 watt Synrad machines.

It's a shame the measuring equipment is so costly...

Scott Shepherd
04-19-2019, 1:32 PM
I have no issues if someone wants to know the output of their tube, but the concern by the OP is that his tube is a jacked up lower wattage tube, done in the name of cost savings by the manufacturer. They have 1000's and 1000's of these tubes in the wild. They are out there and very dependable. There's zero reason to suggest they have made a cost savings decision that's shortchanging the end users of power. You bought an 80W. It's producing more than 80W. Be happy with that. My 80W Ceramic core tube cuts better than my 75W Synrad tube. The beam appears to be higher quality and cutting the exact same materials gives a noticeable difference in quality. The Ceramic Core on acrylic leaves a stunning edge. We've moved all of our acrylic cutting to that machine because the cut quality is superior.

Just run it and don't worry about what model tube someone lists on their website. It's completely irrelevant. You paid for 80W, you've got 80W.

John Goodrich
04-19-2019, 2:03 PM
This is the first time I've seen a moderator come down so hard on someone for asking a question. Is it possible that Steve may have some monetary connection with Trotec that he is slamming the asker of the question?

Scott Shepherd
04-19-2019, 3:27 PM
This is the first time I've seen a moderator come down so hard on someone for asking a question. Is it possible that Steve may have some monetary connection with Trotec that he is slamming the asker of the question?

Not hardly. The OP is the one who posted that he questioned the actual wattage of what he purchased, not me. I posted where he could rent a meter. I also believe he is dead wrong on his belief.

I’ve asked several times if he is having an actual issue and he has yet to answer me.

I don’t get a penny from Trotec, but my question is valid, is he having an actual issue with his laser or is he worried about something he doesn’t need to worry about. If it’s an actual problem with his laser, Trotec can help him.

Mike Null
04-19-2019, 3:29 PM
You're accusing him of being a shill because he stated the facts. I also don't see that he slammed anybody.

Jerome Stanek
04-19-2019, 5:46 PM
What happened to the post with the size of the tube

Scott Shepherd
04-22-2019, 8:06 AM
What happened to the post with the size of the tube

Post #4, it's there.

Joe Lanucha
04-22-2019, 4:38 PM
The concern is this, brand new machine output between miror 2 & 3 is 80.5W average (measured 3X), by trotect rep. No where near 90W.
Im suprised as a new memeber you are telling me not to worry about it, or I should not be concerned about verifiying I got what I paid for. It is a huge investment for me. Yes, I will be springing for a meter. The data now shows it bareley meets the 80W spec by 1/2W.

Would anyone else be concerned?

Thanks,
Joe

Scott Shepherd
04-22-2019, 6:17 PM
You left that part out. If I had an 80W that was putting out 80.5 at the install, I'd probably have a conversation with my rep. Not a huge deal, it's under warranty. However, it's not like they did something shady by cranking up a 60W to 80W and trying to pass it off as 80W.

Being that we're about on 10 years now on our original Trotec tube on 1 machine, I'd still not be too concerned. If you've ever seen the bell curve of laser tube failures, they don't really lose 1-2 w every so often, they tend to have pretty steep declines all at once.

Bert McMahan
04-22-2019, 6:25 PM
Why would you expect your 80W laser to output 90W? It's an 80W tube. It should output 80W. If you're outputting 90W, you're probably overdriving something and prematurely damaging the laser.

Kev Williams
04-22-2019, 7:43 PM
That's true of DC-glass lasers Bert, not so much with RF-metal/ceramic lasers. Manufacturer's firmware in RF machines handles all that stuff, and they're not going to overdrive tubes and risk a lot of warranty issues---

In Chinese machines, the user is the 'firmware'... ;)

Rob Damon
04-22-2019, 8:20 PM
So the actual question in my mind is where is the measurement taken by the laser tube manufacturer when they don't make the whole machine and can't possible figure in the hundreds of potential combinations of mirrors, lense, focus tubes?

Seriously, Reci certainly tests the output at the end of the tube and not after it has travelled several feet bouncing off three mirrors through one lense and at the correct focus distance from the tube end. Doing so would be a useless test unless your laser came with the exact bed size and exact mirrors, lense and focus tube.
So if the tube is rated by the manufacturer as 80w, it should be 80w at the end of the laser tube and not at the end of the run where it does the engraving UNLESS the manuf. of the overall piece of equipment actually states thier machine is listed as a 80w and they guarantee 80w at the point of focus where the burning occurs.

Bert McMahan
04-23-2019, 11:37 AM
Yes definitely Kev, I was using the "royal you" there- I meant to say that in a general sense, a tube that is outputting more than its rating is being overdriven, either by a sketchy manufacturer or a reseller who managed to jigger the firmware. My point was that you shouldn't expect headroom on top of the rating. While I haven't used an RF tube laser I assumed it's the same as most any industrial grade component; in other words, the spec is the spec, and overdriving is frequently (but not always) a bad thing.

Mike Null
04-23-2019, 1:17 PM
Bert
I am not in agreement with your comment,
I meant to say that in a general sense, a tube that is outputting more than its rating is being overdriven, either by a sketchy manufacturer or a reseller who managed to jigger the firmware.

It has been fairly common for CO2 tubes to test out a bit high when new. That is not due to "sketchy" anything. Early on in my engraving life both Synrad and Coherent explained that tubes are not manufactured so precisely that a 40w is always a 40w. It could be 44w or 50w. If it tested less than 40w it might be sold as a 35w or a 30w.

Since the Trotec Iradian tube is ceramic I have not bothered to investigate whether the variations exist there as well.

Jerome Stanek
04-23-2019, 1:37 PM
Bert
I am not in agreement with your comment,

It has been fairly common for CO2 tubes to test out a bit high when new. That is not due to "sketchy" anything. Early on in my engraving life both Synrad and Coherent explained that tubes are not manufactured so precisely that a 40w is always a 40w. It could be 44w or 50w. If it tested less than 40w it might be sold as a 35w or a 30w.

Since the Trotec Iradian tube is ceramic I have not bothered to investigate whether the variations exist there as well.

But if Iradion says it is a 60 watt tube it is a 60 watt and should be sold as a 60 watt even if it puts out more

Scott Shepherd
04-23-2019, 2:12 PM
But if Iradion says it is a 60 watt tube it is a 60 watt and should be sold as a 60 watt even if it puts out more

Iridion hasn't said it's a 60W. It's a rating they use internally to classify their models. You might be able to use a 60W tube with a power supply that produces 80W. That was the entire point of my posts. A 60w decal from Iridion doesn't mean it's a 60W laser from Trotec, it means it's their 60W class, which can be used in 80W capacities.

Scott Shepherd
04-24-2019, 8:06 AM
For what it's worth, our 80W is a 156F tube as well. It cuts beautifully and compared to the power settings used on our 75W Speedy 300 with the Synrad tube, it's right there with it, so it's certainly doing what it's supposed to be doing. As I have said before, the cut quality on the ceramic core tube is superior to the Synrad on acrylic.

Jerome Stanek
04-24-2019, 1:31 PM
Sort of like buying a car with 165 hp and selling it as a 200 hp if you use methanol

Scott Shepherd
04-24-2019, 3:11 PM
Sort of like buying a car with 165 hp and selling it as a 200 hp if you use methanol

How's that? If you buy a 165 hp car and it's dyno'd at 165 hp, then what's the issue? He bought an 80W, it's measuring 80W, it's cutting and engraving as an 80W should, so there's nothing incorrect. It's more like someone buying an Old's 442 and being upset that it doesn't have a 442 in it. The 442 wasn't the size of the engine.

Paul Phillips
04-24-2019, 4:19 PM
Bert
I am not in agreement with your comment,

It has been fairly common for CO2 tubes to test out a bit high when new. That is not due to "sketchy" anything. Early on in my engraving life both Synrad and Coherent explained that tubes are not manufactured so precisely that a 40w is always a 40w. It could be 44w or 50w. If it tested less than 40w it might be sold as a 35w or a 30w.

Since the Trotec Iradian tube is ceramic I have not bothered to investigate whether the variations exist there as well.

Bert, I think what Mike is trying to say is that RF tubes typically change power a bit when new and "settle in" to their specified power rating. My first ULS was a dual 60 watt machine and when the technician set it up for me he tested the tubes and one tested at 72 watts and the second at 80 watts! They eventually settled in to about 62 and 70. My second machine was similar. I don't know why they do this exactly but if Dave Sheldrake is still around he could probably answer it. I think what the OP is concerned about is that if the tube is starting at 80 is it going to settle down to anything less? A concern I would have also, knowing how RF tubes do settle.

Jerome Stanek
04-24-2019, 6:42 PM
If it measures 80.5 the day he bought it and 2 days later it only measures 79.5 is that ethical

Scott Shepherd
04-24-2019, 8:17 PM
If it measures 80.5 the day he bought it and 2 days later it only measures 79.5 is that ethical

That’s not been stated as his situation. He said it was measured 3 times by the rep and the average was 80.5. As to what’s acceptable tolerance, you’d have to ask the manufacturer.

1/4” thick acrylic has a tolerance of +/- 10%. So it can measure between .225/.275”. If you get a sheet that measures .225” do you refuse it for not being 1/4”? Ask Trotec (or any manufacturer) what their tolerance is.

If his laser tested at 85W should he have to pay for the extra 5W?

I’ve cut or engraved over 3 million parts now over 12 years. We’ve owned Trotec, Universal, Epilog, and Chinese lasers. Never have I ever been so concerned about such a non issue. If it’s a concern, have the conversation with Trotec in Michigan and get the answer directly from them. Then it’s settled.

Mike Null
04-24-2019, 11:26 PM
Jerome

I have used power meters. I would be surprised if you could get two identical consecutive readings.

Like Steve, this is a non-issue and I'm on my second Trotec and previously used Epilog and owned Universal.

Rob Damon
04-25-2019, 10:23 PM
FYI
I just asked Iradion about the 156f. They said the Trotec 80w 156f can and does do over 80w and no issues with it running 100%. So you can sleep well tonight and just jump in and start using your Speedy 300 tomorrow.

David Calabro
06-28-2023, 1:36 PM
You should consider what I have found out myself about Synrad vs Iradion in Trotec machines.

When Trotec changed to Iradion tubes, they also added a beam expander and collimator device to the Iradion setup.
The collimation ensures the beam is kept parallel and the same diameter across the entire bed, as lasers have "divergance" which means their beam expands over distance.
The beam expansion allows the lens to create a much smaller spot size for better cutting. There are calculators online for this.

A beam expander/collimator added to any RF CO2 laser tube will make a great improvement. i.e. if Trotec had added one to the Synrad tube machines, it would have cut better and more consistent across the entire bed.

Martin Safranek
07-04-2023, 3:38 AM
Hi, all
i bought co2 laser power meter on aliexpress for about 200 usd and im able measure on tube output, and 2nd and 3rd mirror output .... Advantage is that i can measure power loss on mirrors .....