A few "easy" Arkansas Stones questions: Translucent vs Surgical Black

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I am hoping that these questions are easy and that it does not spark a huge debate. I am hesitant to do this, but, I just want to be sure that I understand things correctly.

Let me start by saying that finding these things on eBay was an effort in frustration for me, so I simply purchased a few new stones. I purchased from here: https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/category_details.php?category_id=59

I had no trouble at all with these guys and I like my stones based on my limited exposure to them.

So, question time.

Please correct me where I am wrong:



The stones "grit" or definition seems to be set based on the stone density. So, if I say "hard", I have some kind of range.
Surgical Black and Translucent are mostly the same in that they have the same density range. Translucent is more expensive only because it is less common. I should see a similar edge produced from either of these stones.
I keep reading things about how "surgeons" love the surgical black stones. Did I miss something here? I doubt that any surgeons resharpen their scalpel blades these days. You open a fresh blade from a sealed package, otherwise you would need to sterilize them (or similar). I assume that they mean that back in the "good old days" when a surgeon was judged on how quickly he could saw off a limb after giving you a dose of whiskey to kill the pain, surgeons liked surgical black stones to sharpen their blades.


I have purposely not asked questions that are overly subjective. I have a few, but, I am afraid to ask them.

I decided to dip my toe into the Arkansas Stones pool because I wanted to do some hand sharpening of pocket knives. I intend to teach a friend how to do it after I figure it out. I think that a hard Arkansas stone will be more difficult for a new person to mess up; more specifically, I am less likely to cut into an Arkansas stone while pushing a blade into the stone than I am with my water stones, so...... Arkansas Stones.

I noticed that Woodcraft has a set of 3 stones that look suspiciously like stones available from Best stones where I got my other stones. It is the RH Preyda - 6”x2x1/2 Hard Blk/Hard/Soft 3 Stone Kit for about $40.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/6-x2x1-2-hard-blk-hard-soft-3-stone-kit?via=573621f469702d06760016cd%2C5764196e69702d6 593000317%2C5797916769702d61c10004f1

The stones that I have for myself are larger, but, if the only intent is to sharpen pocket knives, this set should be great. I actually picked up one of these little kits with two stones, oil, and an angle guide for about $20

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006705CU

The stones all seems nice, but, the Hard Arkansas stone is really small. The soft stone is 4 x 2, which is fine, but, the 3x1 stone, although I could use it, I really did not care for it. Don't get me wrong, I was able to make it work, I just felt like I wanted something bigger for hard stone. Also, it comes with an interesting little angle guide, but, it is only for 23 degrees. I really like this set of angle guides that cover from 10 to 20 degrees.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NF1RYXV

Could I make them myself? Sure, I probably could, but, I was able to very quickly figure out what grind was used on a knife and then duplicate it. I still need to free hand it, but, having a decent starting point is great, especially when I need to figure out what angle was set to start. With an older knife, I am more likely to just regrind to the angle of my choice since it often changes along the blade in strange ways (like a used Buck I got for a great price on eBay recently). Some of my nicer knives, I just want to copy the factory edge, and it seems that some of these factory knives from Case have been done freehand and they differ by a as much as 8 degrees between two knives; but I am just guessing as to why. Case tells me this is normal..... and now I see that I am rambling!

[Tom M King]

They're natural stones, so will vary some. Sometime around 1973, I bought a set of stones that included a Black, from Smith's. They were thrown out of a shop of mine that was hit by a tornado in 1988. A couple of them were broken, but not the black. A few years later, I bought another, larger set that also included a Black. The two Black stones are different. The newer, larger one would never put the edge on that the first one did.

It had been decades since I ever cleaned the old oil stones, and I don't even remember the reason why I did, but after cleaning the old Black stone, and holding it up to a light, I discovered, probably after 35 years, that it was actually a Translucent Black. I doubt I had ever heard the term Translucent back when I first bought them.

[Jim Koepke]

The dental technicians at my dentist office sharpen their tools, sometimes during a cleaning session. They do sterilize their tools between patients.

Are your stones 1/2" thick?

Many years ago one of the Woodcraft sets was purchased. It never seemed that great a set to me. With a Dan's hard Arkansas, a dark translucent purchased at a gem and mineral show and a piece of jasper used as a polisher, my blades can get an edge pretty close to what my 8000 Norton water stone can achieve.

My recent order from Dan's Whetstones should be hear later this week or next. Ordered a soft 8X3X1" a couple of slipstones and an 8X3X1/2" black Arkansas Ultra Fine.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Speaking of sharpening knives, and surgeons, I used to carry a little Solingen steel pocket knife that I sharpened with those Smith stones. I quit carrying it because I got tired of taking people to the emergency room who had asked to borrow it.

The first person cut the palm of his hand. In the ER, the doctor looked at the cut, and asked what had made the incisison. He said he didn't have a scalpel that could make a cut any cleaner than that one.

[ken hatch]

They're natural stones, so will vary some. Sometime around 1973, I bought a set of stones that included a Black, from Smith's. They were thrown out of a shop of mine that was hit by a tornado in 1988. A couple of them were broken, but not the black. A few years later, I bought another, larger set that also included a Black. The two Black stones are different. The newer, larger one would never put the edge on that the first one did.

It had been decades since I ever cleaned the old oil stones, and I don't even remember the reason why I did, but after cleaning the old Black stone, and holding it up to a light, I discovered, probably after 35 years, that it was actually a Translucent Black. I doubt I had ever heard the term Translucent back when I first bought them.


Tom,

You made me curious. I had to go see which if any of my stones were translucent. Turns out there was only one surprise, My Norton Hard White is and the Translucent from Dan's is, the rest are opaque. I'm not sure translucent makes a difference, the hard black and the translucent are both from Dan's and I've had both for years. In use I can't tell any difference in the results, I think the translucent has a touch more "tooth" than the black but I expect if blindfolded I couldn't pick the translucent any more than random. The Norton hard white is a great set up stone for the two "finer" stones, a little quicker than either and with a strop can yield an edge almost as good as any.

ken

[bridger berdel]

In use the translucent and black are very similar. They both are finishers. For most general purpose sharpening like pocket knives a medium or washita is very nice to work with and leaves a very useable edge.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have a translucent Arkansas that has one good spot that still cuts. But the rest is pretty dead has anyone tried to roughen one back to life. Maybe I got dud :( I don’t use it very often.

[Warren Mickley]

Arkansas stones are polishing stones. They are not good at removing material. In the 18th century natural water stones were used to remove material and oil stones were used to polish the edge.

[steven c newman]

Andrew: when you arrive over here...I'll hand you a brown plastic box...from Loray Sharpeners Co. to use on the knives...made over in Grafton, OH.44044.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The dental technicians at my dentist office sharpen their tools, sometimes during a cleaning session. They do sterilize their tools between patients.

Are your stones 1/2" thick?

Many years ago one of the Woodcraft sets was purchased. It never seemed that great a set to me. With a Dan's hard Arkansas, a dark translucent purchased at a gem and mineral show and a piece of jasper used as a polisher, my blades can get an edge pretty close to what my 8000 Norton water stone can achieve.

My recent order from Dan's Whetstones should be hear later this week or next. Ordered a soft 8X3X1" a couple of slipstones and an 8X3X1/2" black Arkansas Ultra Fine.

jtk

I have two primary sets that I will keep. I have a four stone set that is 8x2 at 1/2" thick (soft, hard, black, and translucent) and my three stone set is 10x3 at 1/2" thick (course, medium, and surgical black).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

In use the translucent and black are very similar. They both are finishers. For most general purpose sharpening like pocket knives a medium or washita is very nice to work with and leaves a very useable edge.

Although I had not specifically asked that, it was a question burning in my mind, especially since I am new enough with these to not have the practical experience.

My expectation was that this was exactly correct, and some people made fun of me on a knife forum when I mentioned using some finer stones. I also noted that the stones that came with the Case specific sharpening set. I had intended to give the Case set to my friend, but decided to get him something nicer since I am pretty sure that what I get him will be the last sharpening set he ever gets and uses.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have a translucent Arkansas that has one good spot that still cuts. But the rest is pretty dead has anyone tried to roughen one back to life. Maybe I got dud :( I don’t use it very often.

I heard that yes you can. The context had to do with re-flattening a stone. Understand that I have no practical experience here, but....



With use, the stones cut less and polish more.
If you "flatten" the surface by the method of your choice (diamonds, sand paper, what ever), it will leave you with a rougher surface again.


So, if this is correct, and if you want a rougher surface, then do something to that surface. I would take an opinion other than mine before you did it, especially while figuring out how you wanted to do it.

Also note that Warren pointed out this is probably mostly a polishing stone anyway. I would wonder if maybe the stone was 'clogged", is that a thing with Arkansas stones? Again, I think that the answer is yes, but, my creating facts because they seem plausible in my mind does not make it so.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Arkansas stones are polishing stones. They are not good at removing material. In the 18th century natural water stones were used to remove material and oil stones were used to polish the edge.

I tried to sharpen a knife on a medium stone that was not awful, but not good either. I quickly decided that I would use that stone to keep the knife sharp, but not establish the edge. Thanks for the reminder.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andrew: when you arrive over here...I'll hand you a brown plastic box...from Loray Sharpeners Co. to use on the knives...made over in Grafton, OH.44044.

Sweet! Even made in Ohio (where I live!).

[bridger berdel]

I have a translucent Arkansas that has one good spot that still cuts. But the rest is pretty dead has anyone tried to roughen one back to life. Maybe I got dud :( I don’t use it very often.

If you use water stones, use the translucent as a nagura. It'll stay very fresh.

[Warren Mickley]

If you use water stones, use the translucent as a nagura. It'll stay very fresh.

If you abrade the translucent stone, it will cut faster, but lose its effectiveness as a polisher. There is no point in degrading an expensive stone. These are not water stones, where you want fresh grit. If you want a coarser stone than a translucent, try a soft Arkansas or a Washita stone. Or some kind of water stone.

[Tom M King]

I've never done any flattening, or abrading, of my Black stones. The old one had gotten so nasty that it couldn't be handled without getting smudges transferred. It's been several years since I cleaned it, and don't exactly remember what I used to clean it, but it was some sort of spray cleaner-probably either carburetor cleaner, or brake cleaner.

It's definitely a polisher, and probably won't do anything noticeable unless following the other stones in a progression. Each finer one does get the edge progressively sharper though.

[michael langman]

It is important to always use a good thin honing oil every time you use the translucent stones, or any Arkansas Stone. You do not need much, but cover the entire stone.
If the steel being sharpened or polished id in the low 50's on the rockwell scale or less then the stones can clogged.
As Warren said they polish more then cut. The hard white Arkansas stones which are cheaper should be used after the softer medium stone, and before the translucents.
The translucents will seem slippery after much use but still polish.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I am not a sharpening guru, but the “hard” grade from Dan’s (in between the “soft” and the “true hard”) is a pretty nice stone. I have an india stone for my coarser stone, but 90% of the time it is not needed.

The india stones Norton makes are much cheaper than trying to find a Washita. I have an 8x3 and I think it cost $20. Norton also has the “carborundum” line, but for what I do the India stones work really well.


If you abrade the translucent stone, it will cut faster, but lose its effectiveness as a polisher. There is no point in degrading an expensive stone. These are not water stones, where you want fresh grit. If you want a coarser stone than a translucent, try a soft Arkansas or a Washita stone. Or some kind of water stone.

[Matt Lau]

The dental technicians at my dentist office sharpen their tools, sometimes during a cleaning session. They do sterilize their tools between patients.

Are your stones 1/2" thick?

Many years ago one of the Woodcraft sets was purchased. It never seemed that great a set to me. With a Dan's hard Arkansas, a dark translucent purchased at a gem and mineral show and a piece of jasper used as a polisher, my blades can get an edge pretty close to what my 8000 Norton water stone can achieve.

My recent order from Dan's Whetstones should be hear later this week or next. Ordered a soft 8X3X1" a couple of slipstones and an 8X3X1/2" black Arkansas Ultra Fine.

jtk

They're dental hygienists--the dental technicians might take offense. :P
The Hygienists *definitely* will take offense, as they're a prickly lot. ;0

In most dental programs, a small black arkansas honing stone would be included for sharpening scalers.
The one I got wouldn't hone worth anything.
I've ended up using small ceramic slip stones for my office.

The older stones that I inherited....are pretty great.

[Jim Koepke]

They're dental hygienists--the dental technicians might take offense. :P
The Hygienists *definitely* will take offense, as they're a prickly lot. ;0

Sorry, they usually introduce themselves by name and not their job title. My mistake was in assigning a title instead of just saying the women at my dentist office use a stone to hone their tools during a cleaning session.

jtk

[ken hatch]

It is important to always use a good thin honing oil every time you use the translucent stones, or any Arkansas Stone. You do not need much, but cover the entire stone.
If the steel being sharpened or polished id in the low 50's on the rockwell scale or less then the stones can clogged.
As Warren said they polish more then cut. The hard white Arkansas stones which are cheaper should be used after the softer medium stone, and before the translucents.
The translucents will seem slippery after much use but still polish.

Michael,

The Hard White is a great stone, it can be a finish stone but its greatest value is as a set up for either the Hard Black or Translucent.

ken

[Dave Zellers]

Michael,

The Hard White is a great stone, it can be a finish stone but its greatest value is as a set up for either the Hard Black or Translucent.

ken
I don't have much to add to this discussion except that I bought a large Black Arkansas from Dan's Whetstones maybe a year ago and WOW. Just Wow. With my chisels and plane irons, I do all the preliminary sharpening on Shapton water stones usually using a honing guide and then I finish on the black Arkansas with oil. I don't find any problems moving from water to oil in the same sharpening process. I finish freehand on the black Ark with maybe 1-2 dozen light strokes. Then a leather strop and oh my goodness, be careful where you put your finger. I really didn't have any complaints after my 12,000 Shapton, but something made me want to try a black Arkansas so I did, and I'm glad I did. it's amazing. When you bring hard Arkansas stones into your process, you have to forget about grit comparisons. It's crazy hard, crazy smooth and polishes to a mean bevel. It is the final stone now, every time.

Acknowledging the forum, I know there is at least a level above this. Not ever going there. :cool: I can't believe I even went this far... :eek:

[Tony Zaffuto]

Arkansas stones are polishing stones. They are not good at removing material. In the 18th century natural water stones were used to remove material and oil stones were used to polish the edge.

Warren,

Are you including Washita's in the Arkansas category? Have you any experience with modern Norton soft Arkansas stones? For the record, I freehand on either Spyderco ceramics or a much cherished Washita then a black Arkansas and occasionally a strop while using tools. Choice of stones is dependent on steel in the chisel or blade.

[Warren Mickley]

Tony, I have a soft Arkansas stone which I have used on every edge since 1983. It is so well worn that it can be used as a finishing stone. I sometimes end with that stone, sometimes with a black. I don't think it is a Norton soft Arkansas.

There is a diversity of Washita stones, and I am not familiar with them all. The one I use the most I generally use as an intermediate between a coarse stone and the soft Arkansas. (I sharpen full flat bevel every time). For carving gouges, however, I always start with the Washita and continue with soft and black Arkansas.

The coarse oil stones we have today are mostly man made, and before their advent water stones were usually used for coarse work. There were a few stones that were marketed and used as all around stones, coarse enough to cut and fine enough to leave a decent edge. Examples would be Washita, Queer Creek (a very fine sandstone), fine India, and coticule.

[michael langman]

I really like the hard white stones Ken. They are good at keeping your tools sharp before they get too dull. I like them better then the fine India stone, but still use that on occasion.

[Steve Voigt]

The india stones Norton makes are much cheaper than trying to find a Washita. I have an 8x3 and I think it cost $20. Norton also has the “carborundum” line, but for what I do the India stones work really well.

Yep, India stones are a great bargain. My fine and medium stones are six years old. I flatten them regularly and they've lost a good deal of thickness, but I could probably use them for another four years, so…two bucks a year, amortized? Not bad.
While I'm on the subject, it always bugs me a little when I see people warning of the dangers of flattening oil stones. It's worth mentioning that there is a diversity of expert opinion on the subject: some people say they never flatten their stones, others do it every day. I'm in the middle; I flatten them about once a month, and I'm a pretty heavy user.
There are two reasons to flatten oil stones. One is to make them cut faster, and the other is to keep them flat. I think most users will get frustrated with oil stones if they never flatten them: the stones will cut too slowly, and as the stones develop hollows, it will become increasingly hard to maintain flat backs and remove the burrs produced by more aggressive stones.
It is true, as some here have said, that a freshly abraded stone will produce a (slightly) less keen edge. I frankly doubt most people would be able to tell the difference in actual use. But if it's an issue, there are multiple ways of dealing with it. You can spend a couple minutes flatting a plane iron's back, and the stone will quickly become less brash. You can use a strop with compound after the stone. Or you can use a fine diamond plate to grade the stone. My friend Darryl Gent matches diamond plates to stones--a coarse diamond plate to abrade coarse stones, and an extra fine diamond plate for finishing stones. I don't do that because I'm too cheap, but one of these days…

[bridger berdel]

If you abrade the translucent stone, it will cut faster, but lose its effectiveness as a polisher. There is no point in degrading an expensive stone. These are not water stones, where you want fresh grit. If you want a coarser stone than a translucent, try a soft Arkansas or a Washita stone. Or some kind of water stone.


Very hard fine stones are prone to glazing over, especially in my impatient hands. I have had this happen with translucent white, surgical black, spyderco UF and jaspers. When this happens they pretty much stop cutting. Using them to raise a slurry on a waterstone cleans out the surface without grading them coarser. I don't use the waterstones much because of the messiness factor, but when i do i'll break out some finishers to use with them.

[Charles Guest]

I'm dying to see the portfolio of anybody who can tell the difference, explain the difference, and exploit the difference (particularly the latter) between a translucent and a surgical black.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I bought a surgical black, but then I saw the specific gravity for all three on the Dan’s site is identical. I figure I fell for a marketing gimmick, but it is a nice stone, so I am not too upset.

There is a big difference between the black and the “hard.”

[ken hatch]

I'm dying to see the portfolio of anybody who can tell the difference, explain the difference, and exploit the difference (particularly the latter) between a translucent and a surgical black.

Charles,

Best I can tell their ain't any. In use, as I've posted, my translucent feels slightly "toothier" than the black but that could just be my imagination. Lots of time I will use the translucent just because I can see the swarf where with the black not so much.

ken

[Andrew Hughes]

I went looking for my Translucent Arkansas stone. I couldn’t find it anywhere so I must have thrown it away probably was having a bad day.
So I have a new quest for a new polishing stone. Now that I have different wider selection of chisels steel I am hopeful.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with Ken. I've noticed that in sharpening info you will see "I really like the transluscent " . Never seen " the transluscent sharpens better" Every one likes see-thru rocks.

[bridger berdel]

I'm dying to see the portfolio of anybody who can tell the difference, explain the difference, and exploit the difference (particularly the latter) between a translucent and a surgical black.

They are natural stones so there can be considerable variation from stone to stone of the same type. Any difference between "translucent white" and "surgical black" has to be less than the variation within type. Add to that that they behave considerably differently fresh than broken in and for all practical purposes they are interchangeable.

Someone (here, i think) told a story of buying a surgical black, using it for some years then cleaning it with some solvent and having most of the black wash out. Turned out it was an off color translucent white dyed black and sold as a surgical black.

[Tom M King]

I wondered if that was what happened with my first one, that I cleaned with a very strong solvent. It had always looked black to me before, I bought it as a Black, and had never seen anything about a Translucent at that time. It does put a finer final edge on that the newer Black one.

[Charles Guest]

Charles,

Best I can tell their ain't any. In use, as I've posted, my translucent feels slightly "toothier" than the black but that could just be my imagination. Lots of time I will use the translucent just because I can see the swarf where with the black not so much.

ken

I've used both (but now own neither) and couldn't tell any real difference, so my experience essentially mirrors yours.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I've used both (but now own neither) and couldn't tell any real difference, so my experience essentially mirrors yours.

It is my understanding that they should be essentially the same, but, there was some question in my mind about it.

[Kurtis Johnson]

1. ...
2. Surgical Black and Translucent are mostly the same in that they have the same density range. Translucent is more expensive only because it is less common. I should see a similar edge produced from either of these stones.


Eight years ago I read an article on the internet that translucent was harder than black, and that the finite translucent was nearly, if not entirely, mined out and that any existing translucent were being being halved in thickness from 1" to 1/2" to double supply. The latter two points are plausible, the first, that one is harder than the other, maybe, I don't know. And maybe it's more true with the older mined stuff. Maybe ....

I'll leave my maybes behind and contribute the following:

You appear to be correct about density, which perhaps is determined by grain and compactness of that grain. An info sheet that came with my 1/2" thick "Translucent Arkansas" from Dan's Whetstone Company purchased maybe eight years ago, states:

"Two basic classifications of whetstones are known as Hard and Soft Arkansas and Soft Arkansas. The Hard Arkansas is very fine grained, hard and compact. The Soft Arkansas ... is relatively less compact resulting in high porosity and less density."


And there are three grades:
"SOFT ARKANSAS (Medium) …
HARD ARKANSAS (Fine) …
BLACK and TRANSLUCENT (Extra Fine) stones are classifications included in the TRUE HARD ARKANSAS grade category according to specific gravity density standards. True Hard terminology was adopted to include all extra fine stones regardless of color. Black Arkansas stones are black or blue-black in color. Translucent stones may be a translucent shade of gray, white, yellow, brown or sometimes even pink. They are most commonly used for industrial applications where an extremely fine polish is required."

407849 407850 407851


A friend gave me this 1" thick beaut a few years back:

407852 407853 407854


Circa 1953...

407855 407856


I just thought folks might be interested in the literature.

Kurt

[Kurtis Johnson]

… And here's the instructions for sharpenning your knives if interested:

407857

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I found the link below on the Dan’s website. They show the same specific gravity and same “grit” for the “true hard” “translucent” and “black hard”.

The “true hard” is referred to on the same page as the “finest grade abrasive available today.”

They state clearly that the “translucent” grade is just because some customers prefer the color. But then they go on to refer to the black with some marketing mumbo-jumbo that makes it sound like it is even better but at the same time seems to be pretty carefully phrased to avoid coming right out and actually saying that.

My guess is the “true hard” “translucent” and “black” are pretty much identical except for the color.

https://www.danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/

[Charles Guest]

If one can tell the difference, and more importantly exploit the difference, then you are a rare craftsman indeed.

[michael langman]

Any toolroom I ever worked in the translucent was the only Arkansas used for polishing. These were used every day in working on tools and dies. Never saw a surgical black.

[Mel Fulks]

Any toolroom I ever worked in the translucent was the only Arkansas used for polishing. These were used every day in working on tools and dies. Never saw a surgical black.

Since they work equally well I think the ordering was done by a buyer. Not the owner.

[Jim Koepke]

My two new bench stones came today. It was funny when the UPS truck pulled up a kitchen knife was being sharpened. It may have looked strange to the driver seeing me holding a knife and stone at the door to my shop. He may have not noticed since it is about 50' away from where he was.

Anyway down to the rest of the story. Here is my current set of Arkansas stones:

408263

From left to right they are a soft Arkansas, a hard Arkansas, a black Arkansas and top right is a dark translucent Arkansas, the one on the lower right is a translucent Arkansas slip stone.

The soft is 8X3X1, the hard is 10X3X1 and the black is 8X3X1/2".

All but the dark translucent came from Dan's Whetstones. The dark translucent was purchased at a gem and mineral show for $1.

The soft is quick to turn a burr but doesn't feel as aggressive as my Washita stones.

The translucent slip stone feels a bit more aggressive than the black bench stone. The dark translucent seems to be the least aggressive of all the Arkansas stones. My jasper honing stones are even less aggressive.

The dark translucent has seen a lot of action so it isn't as aggressive as it used to be. The slipstone has seen a lot of work, mostly on gouges and molding plane blades.

It is about time to clean up the bench that holds my oilstones and maybe build a box to hold all the small slipstones and such.

Of course this is only my opinion based upon how a couple of new stones feel.

As always, 408264

jtk