Table saw safety question

[mat price]

Hey guys I am very new to working with woodworking tools. I have used power tools all my life but table saws and routers and such are new to me.
Background I am a industrial health safety and environmental compliance professional so safety is my living.

I want to confirm something I learned while doing my research on safe cutting on the table saw.

Crosscuts
Confirm this is accurate please
It is safe to cross cut a workpiece using the fence only when the distance between the blade and the fence does not exceed the width against the fence.
So say for example I have a workpiece I have ripped to 34.5 inches by 48 inches. I now won't my workpiece to be 34.5 inches by 24 inches.
This is safe to cross cut against the fence because the 24 inches between the blade and the fence is less than the 34.5 inches against the fence.

If wanted to cross cut my workpiece to say 34.5 x 40 inches I would then need to use a cross cut sled or miter gauge to safety make this cut

Just wanting to make sure I understand this fundamental.

Thanks in advance

[Matt Day]

In general you want the long side against the fence. A minor exception for me would be For large pieces of plywood or glue ups where a reasonable amount is riding the fence. Like a 36” by 48” sheet, I’d be okay with 36” against the fence.

With your level of experience I’d definitely use a crosscut sled. It is a vital jig in the shop. You should make one, or two or three, if you don’t.

Edit: “It is safe to cross cut a workpiece using the fence only when the distance between the blade and the fence does not exceed the width against the fence.” The distance from the blade to the fence has no bearing in my opinion. Weather the distance is 2” or 20”, there is weight and friction dragging on the board that could cause it to pull away from the fence and cause kickback.

[Rick Potter]

No rule is able to cover all situations. A little common sense (sadly lacking in some cases, hence the strict rules) should be used.

In your example, there is 34.5" to bear against the fence and plenty of room to safely control it with both hands. I would, and have many times, cut it.

Safety tip: In this case the danger is pushing too much with the left hand on the left side of the blade. This could still pinch at the end of the cut and cause kickback. A saw with a riving knife protects against this. If you don't have a riving knife look up the many youtube vids on 'splitters', which do the job in a slightly different way.

Now, let's change your example to a 1x6" board 40" long that you want to crosscut to 24". Picture how much (6") is bearing against the fence. Try pushing that through is almost a guarantee of getting a kickback right where it hurts.

This is the kind of situation the rule is really about. You should not try something like this , even with a riving knife. You should use your miter guage with a long backer board screwed to it, and the fence far enough aside that if the wood turns outward at the end of the cut, it cannot jam between the fence and blade.

Hope this helps.

Dammit, While I was taking forever to correct my spelling, Matt snuck in there with a great answer.

[Matthew Curtis]

I don't think there is a hard set rule here. The key is to keep enough of your workpiece to prevent racking as it moves through the blade. I typically will crosscut using the fence if my piece is 12" or so wide. Of course the longer my cut off is the more contact is needed against the fence to control it.
You also need enough space between your blade and fence to safely push it through while keeping your hands a safe distance away from the blade. There are options out there that help make this process safer. Just look at all of the push block options.
If my sled is on the saw I will use it. I fell much safer when I can use it. That is why is on the saw most of the time.

[Mike Cutler]

Mat
Yes, that is a good "rule" to follow.

[mat price]

Thanks guys I should have also said that I would not consider anything under 18 inches in width.
Like a 1x6 I would never crosscut without a sled at any length

[Floyd Mah]

Your question reminds me of a quote years ago regarding a court case where the judge declares that he knows something is obscene when he sees it: "I know it when I see it".
As you gain experience and develop safe habits, you will acquire the ability to determine when is a procedure is safe without having to do the calculations.
As I see it, the act of crosscutting, using just a fence, is made dangerous by the ability of the worker to pivot the workpiece using the contact with the fence as a fulcrum. The shorter the piece (against the fence), the more chance of pivoting. Also, the length of the workpiece opposite the blade (on the side away from the fence) as well as the resistance of the workpiece against the table surface contribute to torquing the workpiece.
Interestingly the most frequent comment accompanying the posts of those who are unfortunate to confess here about injuring themselves was that they make a stupid mistake. Of course, I read those posts carefully to learn how to stay safe.
Years ago, I recalled bemoaning the fact that as an intern, I had to scrub for surgery with the worst surgeons (more advanced residents didn't want to work with these guys because they didn't get to do much). Finally I figured out that my purpose was to watch them closely, so that I wouldn't make the stupid mistakes that invariably got them into trouble.

[Andrew Hughes]

I would like to add. Sleds are great but they do have limitations plus who wants to store a fixture that’s nearly a half sheet of plywood. Plywood sleds can warp just like solid wood.
A straight edge and circular saw is very reliable.
good luck

[Jeff Davies]

Mat,
In general, 'Over-square' is a decent guide to start, but , gee whizz, that's a real small table to be cutting any panels. The open air between the fence rails gives me pause too. Can you make a table for this thing to drop into?

[mat price]

Jeff portability is key for I don't have a garage or shop. So I store everything in my spare bedroom shop. When it's time to work I take it all out to the driveway. Major pia but it's what I have to work with. I do have an out feed table I could actually build an infeed also. I generally don't handle material wider than 24 inches though. I rip sheet goods in half before cutting anything on the saw.

[mat price]

Somehow my post got erased. But I have the dewalt dwe7491rs. I need the small footprint and portability of the saw. Because I don't have a garage or shop. I just use a spare bedroom to store tools and do everything in the driveway. The saw is a beast for rip cuts but falls on its face for cross cuts. I'm building a sled for it but I really don't think I'm going to get much use of it due to short infeed. Probably a track saw is in my near future

[Andrew Hughes]

Mat that’s a basic Entry level saw. Good for a job site for ripping molding and such.
Most woodworkers will outgrow that saw pretty quickly.
Its just not good enough.

[mat price]

Don't disagree Andrew. Once I get my shop built the plan is to upgrade to a more suitable saw. For now it meets my needs even if I have to suplament with a track saw

[Jacob Reverb]

In general, I would agree in principle with the "rule" you ask about, Mat. But as others have said, not every rule or principle can be applied to every situation.

I think it's important to "listen to your gut" with a lot of this stuff – if your instinct tells you some operation isn't safe, very often (in my experience, at least) I've found, later, that my gut was right, even if I couldn't identify what was unsafe at the time. Sometimes in retrospect, you'll realize why your gut was sending you those signals. On the other hand, some things that seem unsafe to a beginner are actually safe (don't ask for an example, because I can't think of one right now, but I know that has also happened to me), but in general I don't think you can go too far wrong by trusting your instincts.

Remember that machines are by their nature "lazy" and will do almost anything to avoid doing the work of cutting, whether that means pushing the workpiece away from the blade or lifting it up off the table, or throwing it at you, or grabbing and throwing a lathe gouge, or smacking you in the gut with the workpiece at the drill press, or breaking your arm when the drill bit on a hand drill punches through a piece of steel and jams...it's helpful to think of them as recalcitrant mules, sometimes (don't stand behind the mule or the TS blade!) :p

Have fun and welcome to the forum...

[Andrew Hughes]

Good to hear. :) For me a stationary tablesaw with outfeed to your liking is a proper tablesaw. Much safer.
Good luck. Sounds like you have lots of satisfying fun ahead.

[Mike Cutler]

Remember that machines are by their nature "lazy" and will do almost anything to avoid doing the work of cutting, whether that means pushing the workpiece away from the blade or lifting it up off the table, or throwing it at you, or grabbing and throwing a lathe gouge, or smacking you in the gut with the workpiece at the drill press, or breaking your arm when the drill bit on a hand drill punches through a piece of steel and jams...it's helpful to think of them as recalcitrant mules, sometimes (don't stand behind the mule or the TS blade!) :p

Have fun and welcome to the forum...

Jacob
Is this all personal experience??:eek:
I never broke an arm with a drill, but they've definitely taken me for a ride cutting holes through floors to install plumbing.
Having horses, It's the front end I worry about most. The backend is pretty capable too. ;)

[mat price]

Jacob
Is this all personal experience??:eek:
I never broke an arm with a drill, but they've definitely taken me for a ride cutting holes through floors to install plumbing.
Having horses, It's the front end I worry about most. The backend is pretty capable too. ;)

Mike, I grew up in a plumbing contracting family. We had that old as heck Milwaukee beast drill and planatary bits to cut through top plates and joists. That thing would tear your arm off if it caught a knot lol

[Charles Lent]

I agree with the others about keeping the longer side of the piece against the fence, or finding another way to make the cut.

A saw sled is a great way to do these cuts safely, but when using a sled, make certain that the blade is hidden and protected as it passes into the fence piece closest to you. Keep your hands to either side of this blade position when feeding the sled into the cut. It's good to have a strip of clear Lexan plastic above the blade that's at least 4" wide. This will reduce the amount of saw dust being thrown into your face and also prevent other possible blade contact as you work on both sides of the blade.


A few more table saw or other power tool safety tips -

My uncle, who first taught me much of the woodworking that I know taught me that with a table saw, or any other tool with a fast moving blade that I needed to keep my hands, fingers, and any other part of my body at least 6" from the blade or cutter. He said that if I ever realize that what I'm doing will result in me getting closer than that, to stop and find another way. It was 6 months after I bought my first Grripper that I was able to convince myself that it was OK for my hand to pass over the blade while holding onto the Grripper handle. I finally added "unless you are holding securely onto the safety device" to my uncle's rule and now have and use 3 Grrippers, 2 for the table saw, and 1 with the narrow side removed for use on my router table. I'm 77 and this training has kept me from serious cutting tool injury my whole working life.

Cross cutting while using a miter gauge works well, as long as you can hold or clamp the piece being cut tight to the miter gauge. When doing this you can use the fence as a stop, but only if you have a fence that can be adjusted to end before the piece being cut touches the blade, or you can clamp a block to the fence that ends before the work touches the blade if the block is only used as a fence spacer the stop for determining the length of the cut piece, so the off cut can move free of the blade and fence as it's being cut.

Never stand directly behind the blade as you feed the piece in. Stand to either side of the cut, so the possible kick back will have less chance of hitting your body.

Always use a material feeding method that holds the work down as well as pushes it forward, especially when cutting smaller pieces. This will significantly reduce the chance of kick back. To me, the push sticks that only feed the board without holding it down are totally unacceptable, even if two are used. Let the blade lift the board even slightly and there is a good chance of kick back.

Always keep the entire top of the table saw clear of everything but the piece or pieces being cut. Shut the saw off if any loose off cuts need to be moved away from the blade.

Never reach over the spinning blade to retrieve a part or off cut. Turn the saw off and wait for the blade to stop before reaching there. I added an out feed table to my Unisaw to catch the pieces that I cut, so there is no temptation to reach over the blade to catch a piece before it falls.

Unplug the saw and keep the plug visible when changing the blade, setting up the tool, or repairing the tool. My Unisaw plugs into an outlet next to and slightly above the top of my saw, and the plug is kept within a few inches of the outlet by a piece of nylon cord. I can easily see when it's unplugged, yet it's easy to reach the plug and plug it in when I'm ready to use the saw again.

Never make a bevel cut where the off cut will be trapped between the fence and the blade. If using a right tilt saw, move the fence to the left side of the blade for the cut. Move the fence to the right of the blade for the same cut on a left tilt saw. The angled blade should never be pointed toward the fence.

Never move the fence with the saw running. Always turn it off before making a position adjustment.

I added a ceiling mounted laser line generator that has a one button remote to turn it on and off. The remote is attached to the top of my fence with Velcro. The laser is adjusted to draw a red line to show the cutting line of my Unisaw and this line shows on the top of my work being cut. If my fingers should ever have a red line on them, they are in the wrong place. This is most important when doing non through cuts and dado cuts where you can't see the blade. It might lift or hit a thin spot in the work and break through.

I have one of the Delta Pop-UP Splitters on my Unisaw, and use it whenever ripping solid wood. I have never had plywood or cross cuts of solid wood close up against the blade and pinch it, so my splitter is only used and needed when ripping solid wood, which frequently does pinch the blade. I Have a Brett Guard that too, but frequently even this guard must be moved out of the way for blind cuts and when using the Grrippers.


Charley

[Rod Sheridan]

My uncle, who first taught me much of the woodworking that I know taught me that with a table saw, or any other tool with a fast moving blade that I needed to keep my hands, fingers, and any other part of my body at least 6" from the blade or cutter. He said that if I ever realize that what I'm doing will result in me getting closer than that, to stop and find another way. It was 6 months after I bought my first Grripper that I was able to convince myself that it was OK for my hand to pass over the blade while holding onto the Grripper handle. I finally added "unless you are holding securely onto the safety device" to my uncle's rule and now have and use 3 Grrippers, 2 for the table saw, and 1 with the narrow side removed for use on my router table. I'm 77 and this training has kept me from serious cutting tool injury my whole working life.









Charley

Charley you had some wonderful safety ideas, thanks for posting those.

I have to disagree with the Gripper however.

Anytime you have to remove the guards to perform an operation, you're either using the wrong machine or the wrong guard.

Regards, Rod.

[Charles Lent]

Rod,

I felt that way too, until I gained some experience using the Grripper. Now I'm completely converted when it comes to sawing small pieces. To me, it isn't ideal for doing larger work, but it's ability to hold down and rip an 1/8" wide piece as well as the piece that it is being cut from, all the way past the blade better than any other way that I've found, is what converted me. Every one of us uses our tools for different things and each has an opinion on what works best for them. Like I said, it took me about 6 months to accept and use the Grripper, and for small work where kick back is a frequent concern, I am convinced that the Grripper has it's place as the safer way to do this. There is a safety device built into the Grripper that they don't advertise. If the blade begins cutting into any part of the Grripper a unique plastic smell is emitted. Trust me, you won't cut any further if you smell this. I managed to mis-position one of my Grrippers and shaved the side of one leg. I only cut about 1/8" into it before the smell stopped me. It's strong and like no other. So actually the bridge and handle of the gripper are the guard that protects your hand as long as you hang onto the Grripper handle, and the sudden smell will stop you from cutting if the blade should hit the Grripper way before it hits your hand.

Charley

[Mark e Kessler]

This maybe good advice or bad, I have worked on table saws everything from my first B&D table with the inverted circ saw @10-12yrs old to big ol iron Tanewitz and Oliver direct drive and Sliders. I was/am a cabinetmaker/furniture maker.

I personally have no problems with 4" x 4" on 12" saw or even smaller. The key is that you know the saw ad are comfortable behind it, have a sharp blade and riving knife. I like the blade to be around 1” or more higher than the material I am sure some will gasp at this but I can tell you from 30+ years of using table saws it is the only way for me. I think the recommendation is something like 1/8”? problem with that is that if you get any kind of lift while cutting (usually due to a dull blade) the material can get caught on the top of the blade and guess what… yea I am speaking from experience I had a 36” x 36” ¾” piece of Melamine lift, spin and slam me in the gut on a slider.


What I do is keep my eye on the blade and fingers at all time (sounds obvious but…) 1. always push to the right of the fence with a finger or two on the fence lip if you can and don’t bear fist the material 2. I like to keep a light but firm grip on the material

For #1. If the material gets away from you have a better chance of your hand moving away from the blade not into it
For #2 hard to explain but the point here is that if the blade grabs it you need to know when to let go to reduce the chance of your hand of getting pulled into the blade which goes back to #1…when you let go OR the wood goes on its own while you are pushing your hand goes out of the way.



Caveat, not that a saw kick back is any safer just better than losing body parts. Yes I had plenty of kickbacks, rarely had any kind of injury from it (watch out for mitered kickbacks!)

Caveat of caveat, for me kick back become dangerous if you are cutting a miter with the blade tilted to the fence, I witnessed a kickback of ½” t x 4ish w x 12ish long of walnut about ½ way through the cut..wamo… all I will say is image a knife edge fling through the air… did not end well for that fella. And yes I cut miters with the blade tilted to the fence and material between the fence and blade..

So much to cover here but in the end it is most important to feel relaxed and not nervous, start with large sizes you are comfortable with and go a little smaller as the need arises

mark

[Brian Holcombe]

I think crosscutting while using the fence to set your distance is going to be disaster prone, it does not take much force to move something out of square and your hands are very near to the blade.

If your saw is having trouble crosscutting you may be using the wrong blade.


I use a slider for crosscutting now, but prior to that I simply marked and used a track saw then trimmed the cut square by hand with hand planes.

[Charles Lent]

Mark,

In 66 years of using a table saw, following my uncle's 6" rule for keeping my hands away from the blade, and using hold down type pushing devices I have never had a kick back. I could never bring myself to allow my fingers that close to the blade either. Only in rare cases, when I want the cut to be as straight up and down as possible, do I ever set the blade height to more than 1/2" above the material being cut. Doesn't this tell you something? How many more kick backs do you need to suffer before changing your ways?

Charley

[mat price]

Mark,

In 66 years of using a table saw, following my uncle's 6" rule for keeping my hands away from the blade, and using hold down type pushing devices I have never had a kick back. I could never bring myself to allow my fingers that close to the blade either. Only in rare cases, when I want the cut to be as straight up and down as possible, do I ever set the blade height to more than 1/2" above the material being cut. Doesn't this tell you something? How many more kick backs do you need to suffer before changing your ways?

Charley

Mark I have a couple gripper push blocks and even with the gripper and the blade set just a half tooth above the wood it gives me uneasy feeling passing close to the blade

[Brian Holcombe]

I wouldn't run my hand over the top of the tablesaw blade for any reason, whatsoever. Period.

[Charles P. Wright]

I use a miter gauge with a 6" long 1" thick stop block clamped to the fence. It ends far enough forward, but gives me enough positive registration and simple math (add 1) to the fence scale. I find the simple stock miter gauge is easier than the sled for cross cuts that are not wider than a few inches or longer than a 2-3'.

[Mark e Kessler]

I have had 2 kickbacks that I can remember in 30 years. 6” is venturing into paranoia... 1/2 is ok but too low for me, hell I might be setting it to 2” does anyone really measure that?... And I don’t remember saying that I was suffering, nothing further from the truth.

66 years no kick backs? Now that is impressive working as a full time trades person to achieve I certainly am envious.


W
Mark,

In 66 years of using a table saw, following my uncle's 6" rule for keeping my hands away from the blade, and using hold down type pushing devices I have never had a kick back. I could never bring myself to allow my fingers that close to the blade either. Only in rare cases, when I want the cut to be as straight up and down as possible, do I ever set the blade height to more than 1/2" above the material being cut. Doesn't this tell you something? How many more kick backs do you need to suffer before changing your ways?

Charley

[Jim Becker]

Matt, there's a lot of good advise already. I will add that with the particular type of saw you have you have to be "more careful" relative to the fence because smaller, portable saws tend not to stay completely in alignment. That can affect both ripping and crosscutting when the fence is involved. Alignment is measured in thousandths and the worst case is if material gets pinched between the fence and the blade at the back of the blade if the fence doesn't stay oriented properly. Be careful and work slowly...use push blocks and sleds, and keep your hands as far from the blade as practical at all times.

[Carl Beckett]

I use a miter gauge with a 6" long 1" thick stop block clamped to the fence. It ends far enough forward, but gives me enough positive registration and simple math (add 1) to the fence scale. I find the simple stock miter gauge is easier than the sled for cross cuts that are not wider than a few inches or longer than a 2-3'.

I use a miter guide more than a sled...

[fred everett]

I think it's important to "listen to your gut" with a lot of this stuff – if your instinct tells you some operation isn't safe, very often (in my experience, at least) I've found, later, that my gut was right, even if I couldn't identify what was unsafe at the time. Sometimes in retrospect, you'll realize why your gut was sending you those signals. On the other hand, some things that seem unsafe to a beginner are actually safe (don't ask for an example, because I can't think of one right now, but I know that has also happened to me), but in general I don't think you can go too far wrong by trusting your instincts.


All the safe methods have been discussed. I'll just say the "gut" is an amazing thing. I've had two issues in 20 years....TS kickback and drill press. In both situations my gut said "DON'T" and I didn't listen. The TS kickback happened so fast it was incredible....I was lucky only small scratch. At the DP (with it running) I reached in to grab a smaller piece after the cut....gut said "NO SHUT IT OFF" and I didn't listen.....forstner bit vs finger below. Warning graphic. I listen to my gut intently these days.

407904

[Jeff Davies]

On 'over-square ' cuts, I used to tell my guys to "watch the lead edge of the work-piece as it contacts the fence- if you allow it to drift off a sixteenth, you're in trouble."

[Jim Dwight]

I like the oversquare rule but it is also key to remember the risk is the workpiece moving away from the fence and getting caught in the blade and thrown. Little saws like the DeWalt are less dangerous for kickback in my opinion, however, because their motor is small enough you can stop the blade with a strong grip on your workpiece even in a kickback situation. But they are more dangerous in another way because the fence is so short. For years I used a Ryobi BT3100 about the size of the DeWalt. I screwed an auxiliary fence of melamine that was longer to it's fence to help it. I also built several bedroom sets and lots of other furniture with it. But I have found my SawStop to be easier to do good work with.

[Rick Potter]

Fence? Back in the good old days (C.1967) I knew nothing about tools, but I got a 9" Atlas TS well used with no fence.

25 years old, second house, first new addition, and I was dumb enough to draw a line on a sheet of plywood and just cut it freehand, all by myself. All the roof sheeting on my addition was cut that way, as well as the paneling for the interior walls.

The only thing that saved me from being a statistic was the saw had an old 1/2 HP motor that would stall when it bound up, which was often.

Ahh, the good old days, when I survived being young and stupid.

[Nick Decker]

Fence? Back in the good old days (C.1967) I knew nothing about tools, but I got a 9" Atlas TS well used with no fence.

25 years old, second house, first new addition, and I was dumb enough to draw a line on a sheet of plywood and just cut it freehand, all by myself. All the roof sheeting on my addition was cut that way, as well as the paneling for the interior walls.

The only thing that saved me from being a statistic was the saw had an old 1/2 HP motor that would stall when it bound up, which was often.

Ahh, the good old days, when I survived being young and stupid.

Don't get me started, sir.