Concrete block shed for DC and compressor?

[Bill Jobe]

I have quite a number of concrete blocks....enough to build the walls for a small shed to house my DC.
Are there any reasons why this might not be a good idea?
I'm thinking I'll pour a small slab and wet set the bottom row, then mortar the rest.
Any ideas or suggestions ?
Not only would this eliminate much of the sound while in the shop but it might make it easier to quiet it down for the neighbors.
We had a cold spell this winter with -35°. Can a DC handle such temps?
Would moisture be a bigger problem?

[Bill Jobe]

My own post spawned an idea for cheap, effective sound deadening.
Suppose I build this shed. And every other layer or so use the half wide blocks, set them so the large end of the holes is in, then perhaps fill the gap in them with aucustic foam blocks.
Thus, venting through the wall, but using a much broader area to vent the sound.
What do you think?

[Bill Jobe]

I meant to point out that I was referring to the long half blocks, not the short, square blocks.
And, another bonus...no costly 8" duct.

[Tom M King]

Sorry, no help on your questions, but I would think wet setting the first course would actually be more work than laying them on mortar after you have a level footing under them. With the first course nice, and level, it's easy to go up. If it's not, it will be a fight for several courses. It's also much, much faster to set corner guides, even if you make them out of wood, than using a level to try to keep the corners straight.

Don't know what "long half blocks" are. Do you mean 4" blocks?

[Tim Janssen]

If you are venting to the outside, you will have to return air from outside back into the shop. That return air will have to be heated of course during the winter.
Cheers,

Tim

[Jim Andrew]

Concrete does deaden sound. Not sure you need styrofoam blocks, unless for insulation. When I set up my cyclone to exhaust outside, I made an 8" gate, so I can close that gate and use the filter. There is a T on the exhaust. Be sure to use big enough footing. Not sure about setting the first row of block in the concrete, probably better to set on a solid footing. I am no block layer, if you are, use your own judgment.

[Bill Jobe]

Yes, I meant the 4" blocks.

Now I'm confused. When I first considered a concrete pad I had second thoughts about that, thinking the slab would created more noise, someone wrote it would deaden it instead.
Are you certain it would not reduce noise.

[Bill Jobe]

If you are venting to the outside, you will have to return air from outside back into the shop. That return air will have to be heated of course during the winter.
Cheers,

Tim

Yes, but I'm convinced venting outside is the healthiest way to go.
And i think the block house would reduce some of the pollutants for me and my neighbors.

[Mike Cutler]

I have quite a number of concrete blocks....enough to build the walls for a small shed to house my DC.
Are there any reasons why this might not be a good idea?
Nope
I'm thinking I'll pour a small slab and wet set the bottom row, then mortar the rest.
Any ideas or suggestions ?
Sounds like a plan to me. You might consider lining the inside with foam board to further damping the noise, and set the DC on a section of Stall Mat..
Not only would this eliminate much of the sound while in the shop but it might make it easier to quiet it down for the neighbors.
We had a cold spell this winter with -35°. Can a DC handle such temps?
It would be the grease in the bearings that would be the limiting factor. -35 degrees F is pretty cold. My DC starts to complain in the teens.
Would moisture be a bigger problem?
Could be depending on how tight the enclosure is.


Bill
I am with you. Get the DC out of the shop. Whatever losses would be incurred by having to heat the shop, would surely be offset to a large degree by not incurring the cost of filtration in a closed system.
There is no perfect solution. Concrete does transmit sound, but it will also significantly diminish the amount of noise. I think you have a good idea personally, and have been slowly moving in that direction myself.

[Bill Jobe]

Another duct question:
In my new DC, the intake has an 11° angle where the duct connects. I know you are supposed to have a 6' straight run just prior to entering the Cyclone.
I found an 11° 6" drain fitting. Does it go at the entry point of the cyclone or back prior to the 6' straight run?

[Bill Jobe]

This is the style of block I was referring to.
On the ones I have on hand, the hollow openings are much smaller on one side. I was thinking of laying several rows of these to spread out the exhaust. Also, I think the rough larger opening to the inside might obsorb more sound than a straight opening.
I also wonder if using cotton batting in the cavities if these blocks might capture fines and reduce pollutants for both me and my neighbors. The batting could easily be tossed out when dirty and replaced. Not very expensive either.
That might even cut down on noise a bit.
What think ye?

[Bill Jobe]

As for the exhaust port, I'M thinking of taking a 5 or 6 ft. Section of 8" drain pipe, capping the end and drilling a large number of half or 3/4" holes in the pipe to further reduce sound coming from the exhaust.
Any thoughts?

[Bill Jobe]

I purchased a Clearvue 1800.

[Jim Andrew]

Are you considering laying the 4" blocks flat? I made a outlet for the 8" pipe like a dryer vent, the flapper is a piece of 1/4" ply, and I bent a piece of thin flat metal for the outside to protect it from rain.

[Bill Jobe]

Are you considering laying the 4" blocks flat? I made a outlet for the 8" pipe like a dryer vent, the flapper is a piece of 1/4" ply, and I bent a piece of thin flat metal for the outside to protect it from rain.

Yes, flat. With the larger cavity to the inside. I thought they look like that cavity with the smaller opening out. Would reduce sound levels....like a muffler only the size of a shed.
Make any sense?

[Tom M King]

I did a google search for "sound dampening quality of concrete block", and found all sorts of stuff. I didn't read this, but it looks promising for useful information:
http://www.soundivide.com/uploads/content_file/concrete_block_ctu-n13_eng-46.pdf

[Bill Jobe]

Anyone want to comment on my question regarding the 11° inlet ?

[Ryan Liegel]

Anyone want to comment on my question regarding the 11° inlet ?

I also recently set up my CV1800. I'm pretty sure that the intent of the directions is to have 6 feet straight into the existing inlet with no bends so that the flow stabilizes a bit there before things get separated. I've seen people put a bit of flex hose right after the inlet to get the angle they want and know that's not recommended, but am not sure how much it messes with your CFM or separation.

For my CV1800, I really didn't know what I would do with the 11 degree rise since I wanted to use 6" SDR D2729 the whole way and couldn't find any angle fittings less than 45 degrees. In the end, I did some test-fitting of things and sort of winged it and am pretty happy with it so far.

In my pictures, you can see that I was able to use a wye and a 45 rotated just right to actually get a run that is perfectly level with the ceiling to cross the room. Everything thereafter on that run (miter saw, jointer, planer, table saw) has runs parallel to the walls or ceiling. The other output from the initial wye goes to my bandsaw, and angling 11 degrees from vertical in that drop doesn't look too bad. I'm still a novice at this and would not be surprised if there are a number of things I did that aren't optimal, but it at least looks nice and doesn't seem to get in the way of much else in the garage (except that ceiling fan).

407757407759407760

[Jim Becker]

Ryan, I think the way you handled that was excellent...

[Bill Jobe]

I agree with Jim, Ryan. Nice looking job.
And I want to thank all of you for your posts. I appreciate all the help I can get.
Does anyone use Uniseals anywhere in their DC system? I'm wondering if I used the belled end of drain/sewer pipe that it would be tight enough to use to go through the wall.
They are made to fit schedule 40&80.
They are used a lot in koi ponding, a former hobby of mine.
I don't believe I've seen them mentioned here at SMC, but I don't read every post.

[Jim Becker]

If what I'm seeing after Googling "Uniseals" is what I think I'm looking at, a bushing like that might be very helpful with isolating noise and allowing things to shift a little seasonally as they most certainly will relative to the wall penetration. Makes sense if the sizing is correct..slightly large is better than too tight, IMHO.

[George Yetka]

I did my CV1800 in spiral and the duct fits inside the inlet section with enough play to bring it straight. I unfortunately in the location it is in couldnt get the 6' straight up at the 11 degrees I actually had to come up at a 20 degree angle so im like 30 degrees off that. I put mine in the attic and have yet to vent it so im not sure about the sound. But ive seen a bunch of options. I may take some oversized ductwork and line it if sound ends up being an issue.

Im assuming this going to be unfiltered direct vent
As far as the blocks go I would build to keep it moisture free and not worry about the sound so much if it is to be vented(maybe add some blue foam for good measure and batting in the roof) Your DC is going to take all of its air from the shop so it doesnt need it for makeup. Compressor will

I might also recommend putting your compressor out there.

If it is outside I would look into a bin alarm with a strobe inside and may even looking into wiring that into the controller so that it will not run if the bin is full

[Bill Jobe]

If what I'm seeing after Googling "Uniseals" is what I think I'm looking at, a bushing like that might be very helpful with isolating noise and allowing things to shift a little seasonally as they most certainly will relative to the wall penetration. Makes sense if the sizing is correct..slightly large is better than too tight, IMHO.

Jim, they are very useful and cheap. I used them several places in my pond plumbing and I think I recall reading somewhere that they are good up to 40psi., water tight. While I never used them on the pressure side, they probably could be.
You probably read that a lubricant is needed to install them. I once ran a 4" through the wall of one of those black stock tanks and I had to put about a quarter inch or more of about a 20° chamfer and place a 2x6 over it, then lean most of my weight on it to get it to go through.
They fit tight. And, as you pointed out, the material they are made of would dampen sound somewhat.

[Bill Jobe]

They can even be used to join a pipe through the side of a larger pipe and still be water tight.

[Bill Jobe]

Looks like they make them just for drain/sewer pipe.
$6.64 and free shipping.
That's a lot of bang for the buck.
https://www.aussieglobe.com/6_Uniseal_U600SDR35.html

[Bill Jobe]

Can a cement block shed, perhaps 4x6', be built on a slab with no footings?
Either way, can I attach that small slab to the existing 12x20 slab, leaving perhaps a couple of feet between the original slab which has a simple hand-dug footer, ~12", between the shop and DC outbuilding?

In either case , footing or no footing, should I tie the slab and walls with rebar after drilling holes in the slab and securing rebar in the slab?

[Jim Becker]

That sounds like a question you have to ask your local jurisdiction, Bill.

[Bill Jobe]

A thought just came to me I completely overlooked the fact that I can keep my lathe in the attached garage, since even there it would be less than 30' from a DC in an outbuilding on the far end of the new shop.
Should have plenty of power to handle anything on a lathe. Instant bigger shop. And less chance of pulling dust from the DC exhaust that far away. Already wired for 220.
Warmer in winter. Refrigerator just inside the door.
Any thoughts?

I suppose I should just make a blog out of this thing. Not sure too many people are sitting on the edge of their seats since I've dragged this shop build through SMC for close to 3 years now.
But I made up my mind "No more!!"
No more doing things in a hurry just to get it done. I am determined to brake into woodworking with priorities on doing as much as I can the right way first.
I learned a very hard lesson with koikeeping.

[Bill Jobe]

And....the 6" sewer/drain pipe going through the attached garage wall, through the wall of the new shop, then split right away with the best flowing fittings into both the main intake duct for the DC and a makeup duct coming from the garage...each with it's own valve of some type. Warmer, perhaps cleaner, as I wrote earlier.
This makeup pipe could be routed to 1 or more work stations, thus reducing heat loss and, as I've written before I think could be situated is such a way as to cause the air from the makeup pipe to help direct the dust to the intake ports.
Afterall, it's not blowing. It's being drawn to the DC intake pipe.

[Bill Jobe]

Got with my building inspector and he said that a shed like I want to build would not require a permit, and no inspection.
Basically he said do whatever you want but that he strongly recommended a footing below frost level.
30" here, I believe.
What would be the best, fastest way to pour a 4" slab with 36" footings (6" added to raise it above ground level 6".
My intent is to build 8' walls with cement blocks.

[Jim Becker]

A small backhoe (rental if you don't own) to dig for the footings...and then pour them. I don't know if you can pour them and the slab at the same time. Someone else will have to comment on that.

[Eugene Dixon]

... pour them and the slab at the same time.

a.k.a., a monolithic pour. At least that was what it was called when I lived in SC.

[Mike Kreinhop]

A small backhoe (rental if you don't own) to dig for the footings...and then pour them. I don't know if you can pour them and the slab at the same time. Someone else will have to comment on that.

That's how we do it here for small buildings or slabs. After the formwork is set up and rebar is tied, we place the concrete in one pour. Depending on how large the footers are, we might not use forms for them.

[Joe Jensen]

I just found this resource.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/soundproofing-101-how-keep-your-home-theater-quiet

It positions a regular drywall 2 by 4 wall as not that good with only a 40db reduction. My collector is rated at like 82db. I think that means in a drywalled room it would only be 42db outside the room?

I suspect the real problem area for me is the noise passing through the exhaust duct, and also around the door.

[Jim Becker]

I suspect the real problem area for me is the noise passing through the exhaust duct, and also around the door.
It's important to avoid any direct sound transmission, so that's why "bent path" air returns are recommended. I used an insulated steel exterior rated door for my DC/Compressor closet as it truly seals all the way around.

[Joe Jensen]

I'd be happy to have the dust collector drop from 82db to 62db. My compressor is a big old Quincy that runs at 900 RPM so and it's pretty quiet. Jim did you use and special steel exterior doors?

[Frank Pratt]

It's important to avoid any direct sound transmission, so that's why "bent path" air returns are recommended. I used an insulated steel exterior rated door for my DC/Compressor closet as it truly seals all the way around.

And if you want to go one better, screw a 3/4" sheet of MDF to one or both sides of the door, with a tube of Greenglue between each panel & the door. Makes quite a difference.

[Jim Becker]

Joe, the door was a normal, plain, insulated steel exterior door from the 'borg.

Frank, while I'm happy with the significant sound reduction I've achieved, that does sound like a nice idea because of the dampening effect the dense MDF would provide to the thin metal "container" that is the door.

[Frank Pratt]

Joe, the door was a normal, plain, insulated steel exterior door from the 'borg.

Frank, while I'm happy with the significant sound reduction I've achieved, that does sound like a nice idea because of the dampening effect the dense MDF would provide to the thin metal "container" that is the door.

I just went a little nuts because the DC room is adjacent to living space in the house. Now I need to do the same with the door from the house to the garage. Sometimes my wife complains about the loud music. :D

[Jim Becker]

Fortunately, my shop is in a detached building, so nobody hears the volume of the music, at least if the door(s) are closed. LOL

[Bill Jobe]

I'm starting to think that building a wood structure on a slab and applying the savings to sound control would be better all the way around.

[Jim Andrew]

Knew a guy who would dig a ditch around the perimeter of the building, fill it to ground level, then set the form for the slab while the footing was still green, and then pour the slab later. Reason to form while green, is you can pound the stakes into the soft concrete.

[Bill Jobe]

I know there are a number of members here who have built staggered stud walls so sound cannot travel through such a design.
I think most of you used a 2x6s..
I'm looking for opinions on an idea I have...instead of a 2x6, why not 2 2x4s, then insulate both walls and adding a layer of mass loaded vinyl between them?
Since my DC outbuilding can be very small, I think I can afford to make double walls .
But, I'd like to get some opinions from members or, better perhaps...someone who has done it .

[Jon Snider]

No one has discussed a concern my local compressor company had when I was looking at this same option, that of extended periods w temps well below freezing.

[Frank Pratt]

I know there are a number of members here who have built staggered stud walls so sound cannot travel through such a design.
I think most of you used a 2x6s..
I'm looking for opinions on an idea I have...instead of a 2x6, why not 2 2x4s, then insulate both walls and adding a layer of mass loaded vinyl between them?
Since my DC outbuilding can be very small, I think I can afford to make double walls .
But, I'd like to get some opinions from members or, better perhaps...someone who has done it .

Mass loaded vinyl is very expensive, but 5/8" drywall is not. Better to use more of that for far less money. I built my walls using 6" steel track for top & bottom plates & 2 rows of 2.5" steel studs with 1" between them. The space was stuffed with 2 3" layers of mineral wool batts. Each side of the wall has 2 x 5/8" drywall with Greenglue between them. Do not put drywall between the rows of studs or you'll negate a lot of the sound attenuation.

Standing 3' away with the DC remote turning it on & off, you cannot tell if it's running.

[Frank Pratt]

No one has discussed a concern my local compressor company had when I was looking at this same option, that of extended periods w temps well below freezing.

A small electric baseboard heater would easily take care of that.

[Bill Jobe]

Mass loaded vinyl is very expensive, but 5/8" drywall is not. Better to use more of that for far less money. I built my walls using 6" steel track for top & bottom plates & 2 rows of 2.5" steel studs with 1" between them. The space was stuffed with 2 3" layers of mineral wool batts. Each side of the wall has 2 x 5/8" drywall with Greenglue between them. Do not put drywall between the rows of studs or you'll negate a lot of the sound attenuation.

Standing 3' away with the DC remote turning it on & off, you cannot tell if it's running.

I was thinking of using the MLV between the 2 and bump both 2x4 plates and studs against one another, with the MLV separating them, without any drywall between the outer wall and whatever I choose for the interior wall, my thinking is that this might be more efficient than a 6x plate, staggered studs and insulation of some sort
Of course I will be filling the 7"+ cavity with some kind of insulation for more sound deadening.
I know MLV is very expensive, but this building will be no bigger than nessecary to accommodate my CV 1800 and a vertical compressor on wheels.
It may cost me less than the cement block building Iwas planning to build. It would have required far more concrete than I had expected.
I could probably come up with enough used lumber to build it, too, and it would only need a 4" slab with no footings.
My neighbors are right on top of me.
The point about freezing temps is well taken. I think a 120v 1500w electric heater would take care if that problem, as Frank pointed out.
Those of you with a separate building for your DC, how did you build yours?
Anyone see other problems I may encounter building it this way?

[Frank Pratt]

Bill, do NOT have the inner and outer studs touching they need to be isolated from each other MLV is probably 10x the cost of drywall and dollar for dollar, will get you far more results. A single layer of 5/8" drywall has more sound blocking than a single layer of 1 lb/sq ft MLV. MLV is better suited to places that are irregularly shaped & the flexibility is needed. or where there are extreme space constraints.

With all that insulation, a 500W heater will do for even the coldest winter nights. Don't use a fan forced heater because the fans can fail & leave you without heat.

[Derek Meyer]

I used staggered stud walls in my basement around the bedrooms. I used 2x6 top and bottom plates and 2x4 studs. I put drywall on one side, then used Ultratouch insulation in the cavities. Ultratouch is the insulation made from denim scraps. It is much denser than fiberglass and provides pretty good sound absorbing qualities.

One of my bedrooms down there is adjacent to my mechanical room, and my furnace sits right by the adjoining wall. You can barely hear it when it comes on, and you can't hear it when it is running.

[Bill Jobe]

At 24" are these deep enough for an 1800?

https://quadcities.craigslist.org/grd/d/davenport-20-gallon-pharmaceutical/6885200118.html

[Frank Pratt]

At 24" are these deep enough for an 1800?

https://quadcities.craigslist.org/grd/d/davenport-20-gallon-pharmaceutical/6885200118.html

Better if you can find something bigger. I have a 35 gallon barrel & it fills up really fast if I'm planing or jointing.

[Bill Jobe]

I was kinda thinking so, but.....