More About Keyless Entry

[Jim Allen]

Our car has keyless entry/start and a keypad to open the door without your key (STUPID).


On vacation several years ago, parked in a hotels parking lot, our car got broken into, (nothing was broken). Searched the web; a thief can view your VIN number, go on the dark web and find the default pass code for the keypad.


It was Christmas time our car was full of presents, we lost about $800 worth of stuff (presents and cold weather gear) and then spent another $120 to have the keypad disabled.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I don't have a car like that, but my Harley won't start without a key fob, or you have to know the security bypass code.
Most owners are too lazy to change the factory pin code, but many (me included) do.
Did you not have that option? I'm surprised the factory would not have included that ability in the software.

[Paul F Franklin]

I love the keypad on my escape. It comes in handy often. On the escape, at least, once you personalize the code, the factory default no longer works. It can be reset to factory default, but that requires access to inside of car.

[Jim Allen]

I don't know, but I think the Factory Pass Code doesn't go away, how will the police get into the car without breaking a window if they can't use the FPC?

[Paul F Franklin]

Don't know. Same way they do on cars without keypads I guess.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't know, but I think the Factory Pass Code doesn't go away, how will the police get into the car without breaking a window if they can't use the FPC?

How often do police need to get into a car?

It isn't even needed to tow a car to impound.

jtk

[Bill Orbine]

I don't know, but I think the Factory Pass Code doesn't go away, how will the police get into the car without breaking a window if they can't use the FPC?

So, maybe your theif was a cop?:rolleyes:

[Bill Dufour]

I just installed a keyless deadbolt our front door. the instructions tell you to change the master code and erase the default entry code. The codes are like 0000 and 1234
Bill D

[Doug Garson]

Had an interesting experience with keyless entry/ignition a while back. Wife and I went shopping, dropped her off at the store and went and parked the car. Tried to lock the car with the button on the door and it wouldn't lock, that's when I realized I had forgotten my fob at home and we had been using her fob. I was able to lock it using the lock button inside but if I'd had to restart the car I wouldn't have been able to. Still love the keyless system but it can fool you.

[Doug Garson]

I don't know, but I think the Factory Pass Code doesn't go away, how will the police get into the car without breaking a window if they can't use the FPC?
Other than an emergency, when smashing the window would be faster and justified, why would the police be able to legally get into your car?

[Frederick Skelly]

Other than an emergency, when smashing the window would be faster and justified, why would the police be able to legally get into your car?

Maybe only to open the door if I lock myself out? Probably depends on where you live and what you drive. I don't know if a "slim jim" works on a car with power locks.

[Lee Schierer]

Our Honda Accord will not let you lock the key fob inside the car passenger area. You can however lock a key fob in the trunk.

[James Waldron]

How often do police need to get into a car?

It isn't even needed to tow a car to impound.

jtk

When a child or dog is locked in a car in the hot sun, it's better to have a pass code than to break a window.

Oh, wait, you're in Rainville, WA where there's never sun. Never mind. :D

[Doug Garson]

Maybe only to open the door if I lock myself out? Probably depends on where you live and what you drive. I don't know if a "slim jim" works on a car with power locks.
I think that is what roadside assistance plans are for, wouldn't calling the police to open your car door if you lock yourself out a misuse of the police? Not familiar with the keypad systems for cars, I have one for our house and it works great, never have to remember to carry a key. But how does the ignition work with keypad type entry systems? Do you need a fob? If so what's the advantage of the keypad over a single button on the door linked to the fob? Or is there a second keypad to start the car?

[Doug Garson]

Our Honda Accord will not let you lock the key fob inside the car passenger area. You can however lock a key fob in the trunk.
According to the dealer, the same is true of my Nissan Murano but it did malfunction once and locked with the fob inside, had to call BCAA to get in, tried to lock the car with the fob inside to test the system (with the window open) and it always refused so the one time was a fluke.

[Doug Garson]

When a child or dog is locked in a car in the hot sun, it's better to have a pass code than to break a window.

Oh, wait, you're in Rainville, WA where there's never sun. Never mind. :D
That might depend on how long it takes to get the code, a couple of minutes can make a difference.

[Jim Allen]

I don't know, but I think the Factory Pass Code doesn't go away, how will the police get into the car without breaking a window if they can't use the FPC?

Unless the breakin wasn't through the VIN/keypad the FPC does not go away (Ford product) because we changed our PC as soon as we got the car.

[Jim Koepke]

When a child or dog is locked in a car in the hot sun, it's better to have a pass code than to break a window.

Oh, wait, you're in Rainville, WA where there's never sun. Never mind. :D

In my memory there hasn't been many police calling a special number to get into a car in such situations. Maybe some see it as an educational experience for the person who left another living entity to endure a situation beyond their capacity. If the person comes back more upset about the broken window than the affected life, maybe an arrest would be in order.

jtk

[Paul F Franklin]

On my older (2009) escape, you still have a key to start the car; the keypad only opens (or locks) the doors. If I take it somewhere for service and can't get there to pick it up until after they are closed, I just have them lock the key in the car. I can open the door with the keypad, retrieve the key, and drive away. Or if my wife and I go to a big flea market or shopping at the mall or wherever, she can open the car to deposit treasure without having to take a second key. If we go to the beach, we can lock the keys in the car and not have to worry about them being lost or stolen while we are swimming. Granted, all of these situations have other solutions, but it sure is convenient with the keypad, and you don't have to think ahead and remember to take a second key.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Maybe only to open the door if I lock myself out? Probably depends on where you live and what you drive. I don't know if a "slim jim" works on a car with power locks.

Slim jim won't, but a wedge and a bent radio antenna does. Four years ago, while on vacation over in Canada, left wife in car to ask about paying for parking. Wife gets out of car and locks door with keys inside. Call locksmith,and he tries slim jim to no avail. Gets a plastic wedge, like the ones used with chain saws, pries on top of door and inserts wedge. Using bent radio antenna reaches in and hits power lock button. which releases the door locks. "That will be $55 (US) sir, and have a good day."

[Pat Barry]

Had an interesting experience with keyless entry/ignition a while back. Wife and I went shopping, dropped her off at the store and went and parked the car. Tried to lock the car with the button on the door and it wouldn't lock, that's when I realized I had forgotten my fob at home and we had been using her fob. I was able to lock it using the lock button inside but if I'd had to restart the car I wouldn't have been able to. Still love the keyless system but it can fool you.

So you're saying that the car recognized you were impersonating your wife and wouldn't let you drive. Crazy!

Note: what brand of vehicle do you have. I don't think this can happen with a Chevy without the car beeping at you.

[Pat Barry]

Our car has keyless entry/start and a keypad to open the door without your key (STUPID).


On vacation several years ago, parked in a hotels parking lot, our car got broken into, (nothing was broken). Searched the web; a thief can view your VIN number, go on the dark web and find the default pass code for the keypad.


It was Christmas time our car was full of presents, we lost about $800 worth of stuff (presents and cold weather gear) and then spent another $120 to have the keypad disabled.

Is it possible the door(s) weren't actually locked? I habitually lock my car with the door lock on the inside of the door before I close it, then use the keyfob to verify a couple times while I'm walling away. My wifes Equinox HAS to be locked after the doors are closed with either the keyfob or the exterior button on the door handle with tje doors closed. If you use the interior button, the door unlocks automatically if the door is open because they don't want you accidently locking your keyfob inside the car.

[Frederick Skelly]

I think that is what roadside assistance plans are for, wouldn't calling the police to open your car door if you lock yourself out a misuse of the police?

I'm certain that you're right about that being potential misuse, Doug. I wouldnt even consider it in a major urban area. They'd laugh and tell you to call a truck. But I've seen Police unlock a car a couple different times in mid-size towns. Depends on how busy they are.

[Doug Garson]

So you're saying that the car recognized you were impersonating your wife and wouldn't let you drive. Crazy!

Note: what brand of vehicle do you have. I don't think this can happen with a Chevy without the car beeping at you.
It's a 2007 Nissan Murano, it probably beeped as she walked away and I didn't hear it, it does beep several times if you close the door with the fob outside and the engine running but it will keep running without the fob just won't restart or allow you to use the outside door buttons to lock it.

[Jim Becker]

Some vehicles will "make a noise" briefly when the fob leaves the vicinity and others will "make a noise" continuously...it depends up on the make and model. It's a very nice way to drive a passenger left in the running vehicle in the latter case. :D :D :D

[John K Jordan]

I just installed a keyless deadbolt our front door. the instructions tell you to change the master code and erase the default entry code. The codes are like 0000 and 1234
Bill D

I have keyless deadbolts on house and shop doors (great so I don't have to carry a key with me when I'm walking around the farm.) All the Schlage keypads I've bought do come with a default code but not a global master code as far as I can tell. I've bought eight deadbolt locks and they each have a different apparently random code. The codes are on stickers on the instructions but also inside the lock housing if you remove it from inside the building.

One potential problem with these locks is if you never carry a key and don't hide one outside somewhere you may be locked out if the battery runs down and the lock won't open. I have more than one lock on each building so I figure they won't all go dead at the same moment.

The 9v batteries on these, BTW, last for years. I thought the mechanism is clever: a tiny low-current electric motor turns a stainless steel spring used as a worm gear to move a catch to enable/disable the engagement of the deadbolt knob which otherwise freewheels.

These have worked flawlessly for years now. If anyone is interested I generally get this model: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NJJ1MQ I use a passage lever so I can open the door from the outside with my elbow when my hands are full.

For my interior sunroom door I did put a different Schlage entry lock that has a lever but is not a deadbolt. I don't like it at all.

As for cars, my wife has a Murano with a keyless entry that uses a button on the handle to lock/unlock. We discovered a terrible thing about it - one cold day I grabbed the spare electronic keyfob to start and warm up the car, then put it back in the house since my wife always has her key fob in her purse. We drove 30 miles to the church and when leaving we discovered she DIDN'T have the keyfob that day! The car, once started, can be driven anywhere without the keyfob being in the vehicle but can't be restarted once turned off.

JKJ

JKJ

[Marshall Harrison]

Had an interesting experience with keyless entry/ignition a while back. Wife and I went shopping, dropped her off at the store and went and parked the car. Tried to lock the car with the button on the door and it wouldn't lock, that's when I realized I had forgotten my fob at home and we had been using her fob. I was able to lock it using the lock button inside but if I'd had to restart the car I wouldn't have been able to. Still love the keyless system but it can fool you.

I have had that happen a few times with my Lexus. Luckily I have caught it before the wife gets too far away from the car. Still she isn't any too happy about coming back to the car so I can lock it.

Still I love y keyless entry and push button start.

[Frank Pratt]

Does anybody know the reason why a car can be driven with no fob present? That's how my Accord is & it seems most other cars as well. It's a terrible security hole, but there must be a good reason why it is so, I just haven't been able to think of it.

[Jim Becker]

I'm not sure why that is Frank. You do at least need the fob to start the vehicle (including when using remote start), but once it's fully in run mode, not having the fob doesn't seem to matter with most vehicles that I'm aware of outside of the (hopefully) annoying sound that comes out when the device is perceived as missing.

[Frank Pratt]

I'm not sure why that is Frank. You do at least need the fob to start the vehicle (including when using remote start), but once it's fully in run mode, not having the fob doesn't seem to matter with most vehicles that I'm aware of outside of the (hopefully) annoying sound that comes out when the device is perceived as missing.

Mine does beep when leaving a running car, but I still think it would be better to have the engine shut off when someone attempts to drive off. In the winter it would be nice to be able to start the car & leave it running without having to worry about theft.

[Jerome Stanek]

Mine does beep when leaving a running car, but I still think it would be better to have the engine shut off when someone attempts to drive off. In the winter it would be nice to be able to start the car & leave it running without having to worry about theft.

Here it is against the law to let a car run without someone in it.

[Jim Allen]

Is it possible the door(s) weren't actually locked? I habitually lock my car with the door lock on the inside of the door before I close it, then use the keyfob to verify a couple times while I'm walling away. My wifes Equinox HAS to be locked after the doors are closed with either the keyfob or the exterior button on the door handle with tje doors closed. If you use the interior button, the door unlocks automatically if the door is open because they don't want you accidently locking your keyfob inside the car.

My wife has programed the car to fold in the mirrors when the car is locked, so it's quite easy to verify that it's locked.

[Frank Pratt]

Here it is against the law to let a car run without someone in it.

In colder climates it can be a matter of safety to let the engine run a couple of minutes so the defroster will function. Unfortunately that idea is horribly abused & you see vehicles (mostly pickups) left idling all the time.

[Lee DeRaud]

Our Honda Accord will not let you lock the key fob inside the car passenger area. You can however lock a key fob in the trunk.What year? That doesn't work on my 2016.
We went crazy the first time on vacation, because GF couldn't leave her purse (with the spare fob) in the trunk. Ended up having to get one of those Faraday-cage pouches to keep the spare in.

[John Lanciani]

Does anybody know the reason why a car can be driven with no fob present? That's how my Accord is & it seems most other cars as well. It's a terrible security hole, but there must be a good reason why it is so, I just haven't been able to think of it.

Imagine if the fob battery happened to die while you were driving on the freeway. The net result would be the same as if the fob wasn’t present. I personally would prefer that my car not shut off when I’m cruising along at 65+mph.

[John K Jordan]

Mine does beep when leaving a running car, but I still think it would be better to have the engine shut off when someone attempts to drive off. In the winter it would be nice to be able to start the car & leave it running without having to worry about theft.

On my Jeep using the remote to start the car locks the doors. If the door is opened then the car still cannot be driven until the keyfob is in the car and the operator manually presses the start button.

Besides warming the engine starting remotely when cold outside also turns on the seat heat. I don't use the remote start much but I do occasionally in our freezing winters. You know, when the temperature gets down below 40. :)

[Frank Pratt]

What year? That doesn't work on my 2016.
We went crazy the first time on vacation, because GF couldn't leave her purse (with the spare fob) in the trunk. Ended up having to get one of those Faraday-cage pouches to keep the spare in.

Mine's a 2013 & you can't lock the fob in the truck either.

[Frank Pratt]

Imagine if the fob battery happened to die while you were driving on the freeway. The net result would be the same as if the fob wasn’t present. I personally would prefer that my car not shut off when I’m cruising along at 65+mph.

That's a good point.

[John K Jordan]

Imagine if the fob battery happened to die while you were driving on the freeway. The net result would be the same as if the fob wasn’t present. I personally would prefer that my car not shut off when I’m cruising along at 65+mph.

The control software could easily keep the engine running if the vehicle is in motion or just running at the time the keyfob battery died, not disabling it until the vehicle is stopped and turned off. It could display the problem and a warning to replace the battery before the next time the engine needs to be started.

The owner could keep a spare battery in the vehicle.

But my experience is the battery loses power slowly, first evident by the need to get closer to the vehicle to unlock it. At that point we replace the batteries.

EDIT: Now that I think of it with our two cars that use these keys nothing happens if the key dies while driving. The engine does not stop. You could throw the fob out the window and the engine will still run fine. On one car there is no indication the key is missing; on the other car there is an annoying and persistent beep. That beep would alert you to stop somewhere and get a new battery. (The batteries in our last for years.)

JKJ

[Jim Becker]

Mine does beep when leaving a running car, but I still think it would be better to have the engine shut off when someone attempts to drive off. In the winter it would be nice to be able to start the car & leave it running without having to worry about theft.
Remote start systems provide what you want without endangering the vehicle to drive offs...while the engine is running, the vehicle cannot be moved/put in Drive without the fob present and in most cases, a second push of the start button on the dash to fully start the vehicle's electrical systems. Remote start also generally locks the vehicle at the same time as the remote start. Some systems turn the vehicle off when the driver's door is unlocked and opened (our 2016 Subaru Outback Limited with Eyesight); others do not shut down (my preference) but require the second soft-start. (my 2012 Grand Cherokee Overland Summit that I just sold) The new Subaru Ascent Touring I have on order has an updated remote start system that doesn't shut down when the driver door is unlocked but like the Jeep, requires a soft-start with the fob present in order to drive off.

[Doug Garson]

It would seem to me that the logical solution would be to require the fob in the car to shift the transmission out of park.

[John K Jordan]

It would seem to me that the logical solution would be to require the fob in the car to shift the transmission out of park.

That's the way my Jeep Cherokee works. If the engine is running you can't shift the transmission out of Park unless you have the keyfob inside and push the button on the dash.

[Phil Stone]

Another fun thing to consider with keyless car systems is that there is now a two-person hack that uses two devices to boost your fob's signal to gain access to the car. It works by having one crook stand near you (presumably with your fob in your pocket), and another near the car. The one near the car has a device which can imitate the car's signal it sends to the key fob to see if it's in range, only amplified quite a bit. The guy standing near you has a corresponding receiver; it fools the fob into thinking it's near the car, and so the fob responds with the correct code. This is received by the device near the car, which passes it to the car, which then unlocks (and can also start! -- though one wouldn't be able to restart it after going any distance).

See here for details: https://hackernoon.com/signal-amplification-relay-attack-sara-609ce6c20d4f

So now you can buy RFID-shielding key fob wallets to hide your fob in when you're not using it. Sort of defeats the convenience of keyless entry/ignition, though. Apparently car-makers could fix this vulnerability by making the timing more critical, but their current response is to pretend that this vulnerability does not exist.

Edit: just noticed there is an entire current thread devoted to this topic. Sorry for the noise.

[Doug Garson]

Why would a RFID shielding key fob wallet defeat the convenience?

[Frank Pratt]

Why would a RFID shielding key fob wallet defeat the convenience?

Cause then you've gotta get it out of your pocket & then out of the wallet.

[Tom Stenzel]

Imagine if the fob battery happened to die while you were driving on the freeway. The net result would be the same as if the fob wasn’t present. I personally would prefer that my car not shut off when I’m cruising along at 65+mph.

My wife's Dodge is keyless. If the fob battery gets low a warning message pops up on dashboard. If the battery goes completely kaput the door opens with a key and the car can be started by holding the fob against the dash. Someplace, I forget where. The car can then be started. Don't know if the fob is moved far enough away it stops, we haven't had the problem yet.

I don't think the car will just shutdown if it loses fob connection. I doubt the manufacturer's legal department would find that a good idea.

-Tom

[Phil Stone]

Cause then you've gotta get it out of your pocket & then out of the wallet.

Exactly. I actually wish there were an on/off switch on fobs -- but again, car manufacturers would have to acknowledge the problem to do this.

[Lee DeRaud]

Exactly. I actually wish there were an on/off switch on fobs -- but again, car manufacturers would have to acknowledge the problem to do this.And then you'd have to take it out of your pocket to switch it on, then remember to switch it off when you get out of the car.
Or worse: "Honey? The car won't start." "Did you switch on the fob?" Do that twice and the switch will get permanently taped to the 'on' position.

[Phil Stone]

And then you'd have to take it out of your pocket to switch it on, then remember to switch it off when you get out of the car.
Or worse: "Honey? The car won't start." "Did you switch on the fob?" Do that twice and the switch will get permanently taped to the 'on' position.

You're probably right, but it's still a little easier than the pouch solution (which I'm using right now).

[Doug Garson]

Cause then you've gotta get it out of your pocket & then out of the wallet.
Agree, it would reduce the convenience.

[Lee DeRaud]

You're probably right, but it's still a little easier than the pouch solution (which I'm using right now).Except maybe for "can't lock the spare fob in the trunk", I'm curious what real problem the pouch solves.

For some reason, it brings to mind "TEMPEST shielding" and "random TSA pat-downs". But maybe that's just me.

[Phil Stone]

Except maybe for "can't lock the spare fob in the trunk", I'm curious what real problem the pouch solves.

For some reason, it brings to mind "TEMPEST shielding" and "random TSA pat-downs". But maybe that's just me.

It protects against the attack listed in my above post (i.e. two thieves with signal amplifiers). Whether that's of concern to you is another thing.

[Lee DeRaud]

It protects against the attack listed in my above post (i.e. two thieves with signal amplifiers).And my question remains, just how big a problem is this? As I read it, the "attack" was a proof-of-concept test of a potential vulnerability. Whether the attack method is "easy", using "readily-available devices", is certainly open to question, not to mention whether such attacks are common (or even existent) in the wild.

There are certainly easier ways to steal cars. Does anyone seriously believe these keyless systems are less secure than anything involving a physical key?

[Doug Dawson]

And my question remains, just how big a problem is this? As I read it, the "attack" was a proof-of-concept test of a potential vulnerability. Whether the attack method is "easy", using "readily-available devices", is certainly open to question, not to mention whether such attacks are common (or even existent) in the wild.

There are certainly easier ways to steal cars. Does anyone seriously believe these keyless systems are less secure than anything involving a physical key?

I had my keyless car (with the alarm set!) broken into in my driveway with no sign of forced entry last year. I think they were looking for the garage remote (which I keep locked up in the house.) All they found was my James Taylor CD and my CD of the original Broadway cast recording of West Side Story, which they took out of sheer spite. Bastihds. No damage to the car though aside from some grubby fingerprints on the interior, which is otherwise immaculate.