What are the actual rates of serious accident in the woodshop?

[Andrew More]

So I've been thinking about getting a SawStop for a while. Not going to happen just yet, mostly because of budget.

The safety aspects are clear, and nobody wants to have a table saw accident. However, what about the other tools in the shop? Having a saw stop doesn't help me much if I mess up on the band saw. Does anybody know what the actual rates of accident are for the other various tools in the shop? Also how common are table saw accidents?

Just wondering if anybody has any indepth studies of exactly which tools are the most dangerous, and what are the most common injuries.

[Martin Wasner]

I'd be surprised if there was any real data out there, I'm not sure I'd trust it either.

In 15 years of running a cabinet shop we've sent two people to the emergency room. Once was a tablesaw, a few stitches nothing major. The other was a router, same thing a few stitches. There's been a few times myself personally I should've gone in, but I've played triage on myself enough that I know going in sometimes only results in a waste of money.

You can't fix stupid. I shoved my middle finger in the blade of my panel saw a while back. It takes effort to be that stupid.

From working at a big shop where the guys were getting pushed pretty hard, I'd guess somewhere around half of the injuries were from a tablesaw. The rest ran the gamut. We sent someone to the ER about every other month on average I'd bet.

[Stan Calow]

You'd have to compare number of injuries per man-hours of use (which no-one tracks) to determine "most dangerous". But for sheer number of accidents, hand tools probably win.

[Martin Siebert]

I guess if a sawstop gives you added confidence to use it more than definitely go for it. I don't have one and I seriously doubt I ever will. I tend to look at things a little differently than the rest of the world, I believe that machines don't hurt anyone, people try to use them and hurt themselves. It's kinda like saying a particular road or traffic area is "dangerous" and that it causes accidents. Well, for every accident that occurred there how many drivers were able to negotiate that section of road safely? You can slow people down to 20mph and put a red light every 50 feet and someone is still going to come along and wreck. Was it the car, the road or the drunk behind the wheel???
I believe that if someone really and truly feels like they have to have a sawstop so they don't cut their arm off they probably should look for a new hobby. That last sentence really grinds against the guys that paid all that money for one, but go back and read my very first sentence, if you like it go for it. But, as already pointed out, a single machine that has been made accident proof does nothing for the safe use of the other machines. Safe operation of any device is on the user and a mechanical safety is no substitute for safe operating practice.
To say one machine is more "dangerous" over another implies that there must be some non-correctable reason why it cannot be operated in a reasonably safe manner {the machines fault or the way it must be operated with no choice if you have to use it}. If that was truly the case then manufacturers would either find a way to make it safe or get sued out of business. As with anything that can hurt you, use at your own risk.

[Jon Singer]

I spoke to someone at Delta about a manufacture date on a 6" jointer I picked up. He explained it to me like this: "Do you know what scalloped potatoes look like? At least when the TS/RAS bites you, the doctors have something to sew back on." (seriously, the delta guy really said that to me on the phone)

[Richard Coers]

This article sites a study.
https://www.wwgoa.com/article/shop-accident-statistics-woodworking-safety/

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Andrew, every study I've read shows that the table saw has the highest number of incidents. If I remember correctly there are over 30,000 table saw incidents per year in the USA.

That's related to poor training, number of hours of use and of course they're the most prevalent saw in wood working.

Of course there are injuries from band saws, however except for cross cutting of cylinders, there are very few blade grab or kickback injuries possible with a band saw.

Jointers and shapers are the machines with really ugly injuries, however those incidents are less in frequency due to lack of hours and ownership.

regards, Rod.

[roger wiegand]

Here's a summary of a survey-based estimate (https://www.wwgoa.com/article/shop-accident-statistics-woodworking-safety/):

Table saws win, by a lot.

A brief look through various publications suggests that in the broad classification of workers with wood that loggers and carpenters suffer much higher injury rates than cabinetmakers.

[glenn bradley]

These conversations often break down. As Martin stated, there is inaccurate data, a history of statistics being used to make a point, etc. I don't know that anyone has been able to perform a solid scientific method of tracking incidents versus hours of use of a given machine, therefor the most common machine or the one that attracts the most attention wins . . . or loses :).

Injuries of people hitting themselves in the face on the back-swing of a claw hammer are surprisingly high. Given an investigative effort and budget I bet we would find all sorts of fascinating data.

I happen to own a Saw Stop. Ignoring the safety feature, at the time I was looking it was as good as or better than other competing colors. For a third more money the market hits another tier of really fine machines. In the $3k tier I have been happy with the machine I have. As has been the case for many years, we now buy the product, not the brand or color ;).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The most dangerous tool on my worksites is not a tablesaw, it's the stupid utility knives we all carry. None of us have ever been hurt by a tablesaw (not counting my back when I moved one last week), but we've all got scars from the knives. That's a comment that is completely anecdotal and irrelevant for your pure data desire. Point is, how good is any study when it has to be manipulated so much to reach a statistical conclusion, that it completely misses this class of accidents?

[Andrew More]

Thanks for the article, lots of good data, and it seems it's in line with some of the anecdotal comments as well.

I also wonder how many of those table saw injuries could have been prevented with a blade retraction/stopping technology like SawStops. Kickback also seems a serious source of table saw injury, which is partially addressed by riving knives equipped on every modern saw. (My current tablesaw also lacks a riving knife, which is another good reason for an upgrade)

The other struggle I'm going through it whether or not to hold off in hopes that Bosch, Jet, Grizzly, or Powermatic will introduce a SawStop competitor in the next couple of years as the SawStop patents expire. Personally I think the Bosch technology is an improvement over the SawStop approach, but Bosch doesn't sell cabinet saws.

[Roger Feeley]

+1 on the utility knife.

When I was college learning to teach shop, I was told that a bench chisel was the most dangerous tool. The reason given was that the sharp edge was always on the move whereas the danger area on a bandsaw is known and in one place. I wasn't so sure about it but ok.

I have a Sawstop and love it. But you can make any table saw a lot safer by aligning and tuning it so that it cuts straight. Also, I have two of every blade type I own. That encourages me to to switch blades and get the dull one sharpened. Having to push the work introduces more forces and increases the chance of a slip and injury.

That said, some saws are pretty much beyond redemption because of the fence. If you can't align the fence, you are asking for trouble.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Andrew, the method of preventing kickback is to prevent contact of the work piece by the rear, or top of the blade.

Contact at the rear is accomplished through a splitter or riving knife, contact at the top is prevented by a blade guard.

To have adequate saw safety you'll need both, and they can be supplemented by an active safety system such a Sawstop, or other manufacturers solutions.........Regards, Rod.

[George Yetka]

I'd say the TS would have to win. Almost everyone working with wood starts with one and then adds the other power tools. The one that scares me the most is the router though, Theres tools that can do more damage but none as likely to kick.

[Warren Wilson]

I guess part of the reason I am suspicious of these statistics is that there are thousands of hobbyist woodworkers out there putting in hundreds of thousands of hours, no doubt — mostly invisible to collectors of data.

I bought a Sawstop last year with little interest in the blade-stopping feature and much interest in the build otherwise. With the upgraded fence and blades, it’s a fine tool. Buttery-smooth, burn-free cuts have a lot of appeal to me.

[Rod Sheridan]

I guess part of the reason I am suspicious of these statistics is that there are thousands of hobbyist woodworkers out there putting in hundreds of thousands of hours, no doubt — mostly invisible to collectors of data.

I bought a Sawstop last year with little interest in the blade-stopping feature and much interest in the build otherwise. With the upgraded fence and blades, it’s a fine tool. Buttery-smooth, burn-free cuts have a lot of appeal to me.

Hi, I expect it is exactly the opposite, many hobby users with unreported injuries.

If a hobby user gets a nick, they won’t seek medical attention, that doesn’t happen in industry.......Rod

[Mark Wooden]

By far, the most dangerous tool has two legs, two arms two hands and starts out with ten fingers. Things go downhill from there.

[Martin Wasner]

, that doesn’t happen in industry.......Rod

You gotta stop making stuff up.

If it doesn't require a medical attention, it's going to get a bandaid and be the end of it in my experience.

[Martin Wasner]

By far, the most dangerous tool has two legs, two arms two hands and starts out with ten fingers. Things go downhill from there.

Right?! I've seen dummies amputate body parts on machines that should've been almost impossible to get hurt on

[Rod Sheridan]

You gotta stop making stuff up.

If it doesn't require a medical attention, it's going to get a bandaid and be the end of it in my experience.

Where I work if it needs a bandaid, you get a bandaid and fill out the log book. I think we’re differing on what we consider a nick, I’ve seen many people who needed a stitch or 2 decide they just needed a banaid.

If it needs more than that you get medical attention because the company isn’t willing to undertake the liability for no gain.

When we had a nurse on staff she would do the determination, now if it’s more than a banaid we don’t get the choice because we no longer have any expertise on site.

If we have a near miss we fill out a near miss form and it goes to policy committee for analysis. Near misses are an extremely valuable learning experience.

Regards, Rod

[Martin Wasner]

Across the board, that is extremely unusual.

[David Utterback]

Thank you, Roger and Richard, for finding the report on NEISS surveillance. Below are the main observations, IMHO, by the study investigators at CPSC. The surveillance program is designed to yield population-based national estimates from data provided by a sample of 100 hospital emergency departments. There is a lot more information in the report which can be accessed at cpsc.gov/PageFiles/108980/statsaws.pdf. I have highlighted the data on saw ownership since others have wondered.

Copied from pdf of the cspc report:
the estimated total number of hospital emergency department-treated injuries related to table/bench saws in the United States during the calendar years 2007–2008 was 79,500.

injuries related to table/bench saws account for 78.0 percent of the survey-based estimated total number of 101,900 injuries associated with all stationary saws (i.e., table/bench saws, band saws, radial arm saws, and miter saws).

the operator of the saw was the victim in 95.7 percent (76,100) of the cases. The estimated average age of the injured operators was 55.4 years

Injuries to operators were due to contacting the blade in 88.0 percent of the cases

93.0 percent of the cases, the victim was examined/treated and released from the hospital

fixed cabinet saw was in use in the majority of the cases (68.7 percent), followed by a semiportable contractor saw (18.3 percent), and a portable bench saw (10.5 percent). The saw was owned by the operatorÂ’s household in 86.7 percent of the cases.
(emphasis added by me)

the blade guard was removed (75.0 percent) for operational convenience. A riving knife was attached to the saw in 20.4 percent of the cases, and an anti-kickback pawl or spreader assembly was attached to the saw in 24.4 percent of the cases

the type of cutting operation performed was ripping along the length of the stock (85.7 percent) and primarily for vertically straight cuts (94.7 percent)

about 67.1 percent of the injuries happened when the operator was actually cutting or in the middle of a cut; and in 28.9 percent of the cases, injuries happened when the operator was at the end of a cutting operation

the stock kicked back or jumped in 40.5 percent of the cases


[/B]
Here's a summary of a survey-based estimate (https://www.wwgoa.com/article/shop-accident-statistics-woodworking-safety/):

Table saws win, by a lot.

A brief look through various publications suggests that in the broad classification of workers with wood that loggers and carpenters suffer much higher injury rates than cabinetmakers.

These data are over 10 years old. Newer data might reveal lower estimates following occupational injury trends in general industry. I would stick my neck out a bit and say that more integrated and effective safety devices may be available to more woodworkers these days due to ancient machinery being replaced by newer. I also would guess that the development of the web has also made relevant safety information more widely read. Increased popularity of WW could push the estimates higher.

Thanks again for posting!

[Larry Frank]

I worked many years in a very large world wide steel making company. All injuries were supposed to be reported and investigated by both the company and the union. Close calls were also investigated. The goal was to try to prevent all injuries. Rod's comments were in line with what we did. However, we had a complete medical setup and treated the injuries on-site if possible.

Accident and near accidents were the topics of safety meetings before shifts started. We monitored accidents and tracked safety training.

[Martin Wasner]

Crazy. Never heard such a thing, but the trades are a little different from most.

Could be a regional thing too.

[Kevin Jenness]

I worked for 14 years in a shop with five cabinetmakers. In that time we had two ER trips that I remember, one from a handheld router kickback- bad cut planning, and one from a gloved finger caught in a jointer- hurrying to correct a mistake. We had a fairly serious safety program with a written manual and a policy of documentation of all injuries, all with an orientation to insurance issues. Suppose you get a superficial cut, don't document it, then it gets infected and you need to make a workmen's comp claim- it's a lot easier if it was written up in the first place. When there is a serious accident the insurance provider is going to want some assurance that you are taking safety seriously, and if OSHA gets involved your paperwork really needs to be in order. The cost to an employer of a serious accident far outweighs any loss of production involved in a systematic safety program. People will do stupid things, but if they get regular reminders to use safe techniques it can really help. Nothing crazy about it.

[Andrew More]

fixed cabinet saw was in use in the majority of the cases (68.7 percent), followed by a semiportable contractor saw (18.3 percent), and a portable bench saw (10.5 percent).

Interesting report. A few things stand out to me. First that this report doesn't mention other tools, such as jointer or routers. Second, that a majority of the injuries were on fixed cabinet saws. I find the high incident among cabinet saws odd, because I would bet good money that cabinet saws are in the minority, while contractor or bench saws the majority.

Any idea what would make the cabinet saws more dangerous? Particularly since it would be more likely that they are in the hands of an experienced operator?

Finally, why do the average ages trend high? Is it because wood working is more common among older people? And keep in mind that 55 is the average, meaning 50% are ever older.

[Scott Winners]

I agree with a couple or three previous posters that you really need to look at injuries per hours of use to make meaningful conclusions about which tool is the most dangerous.

Given tablesaws are far and away the most commonly owned homeowner power tool it is no surprise to me, at all, that they are the most commonly involved in injuries. The "at the end of a rip cut" remark about tablesaws above got my attention.

Two things I would want to correct for, mostly among amateurs and hopefully a tiny fraction of pro injuries - safety gear removed and blood alcohol content of injured patient.

I _think_ if we had good data and could peel off the folks that had been drinking and/or took the safety gear off their power tools the remaining injury rates would be shockingly low, probably safer than driving a car on pubic roads or smoking.

[Larry Frank]

In the CPSC report, it says that in 75% of the reported accidents the blade guard was removed.

[David Utterback]

Hi Andrew,
The report itself is very informative. The text I highlighted says that 86.7% of the saws were owned by the operator's [U]household[U]. I interpret this observation as home shop use of the saws, not industrial, although not necessarily all home use.

The average age of 55 is also consistent with home shop use. I would not be surprised if the average hobbyist member age for this forum is near the same number of years. Also the median would be the number where 50% would older. In large populations, such as used in this survey, the difference between median and average is likely to be small.

I would also guess that Larry's employer, "a very large world wide steel making company," was self-insured for workers' comp. This would mean that injury costs, both medical and indemnity, would be paid directly by the employer. Having a union would likely mean bargaining over safety issues and extensive written safety program. These elements to manage safety for the benefit of both employer and employees are the norm in large unionized industries.

[Zachary Hoyt]

My personal rate of injury is none that were serious in over 20 years of using power tools, and 18 years of using chainsaws and farm machinery pretty often. I'm 33 now. I have cut myself with knives and chisels a few times, but never to the extent that I needed stitches. I have also sanded some skin from my fingertips a few times on a disc sander, trying to sand very small pieces. My one injury that required medical attention was an ingrown toenail that I got from dropping a piece of firewood on my big toe while wearing rubber boots that didn't have a steel toe. I didn't go to the doctor for that for several months, and when I did he said it was the most ingrown that he had ever seen. I'm hoping to continue to retain all of my appendages indefinitely.
Zach

[Joe Jensen]

I bought a Sawstop ICS, later traded for a Euro slider. I would guess the table saw is named most often as the reason for an ER visit because most people would have a table saw as a first machine. Bandsaws are more dangerous IMHO because you get lulled into a sense of safety as you don't get explosive kickback. A butcher in my small hometown slipped on fat on the floor and lost his entire arm. He nearly bled to death. Always always think about how a tool could injure you before you start a cut.

I've never been to the ER but over 40 years I've had some serious cuts from:
- table saw
- router
- bandsaw
- utility knife
- etc etc.

I personally think investing in safety is smart...joe

[John Kee]

So I've been thinking about getting a SawStop for a while. Not going to happen just yet, mostly because of budget.

The safety aspects are clear, and nobody wants to have a table saw accident. However, what about the other tools in the shop? Having a saw stop doesn't help me much if I mess up on the band saw. Does anybody know what the actual rates of accident are for the other various tools in the shop? Also how common are table saw accidents?

Just wondering if anybody has any indepth studies of exactly which tools are the most dangerous, and what are the most common injuries.

Andrew I don't think you could ever get an honest answer, everything and almost everyone has an agenda today especially concerning tablesaws and Sawstop. Safety zealots, insurance industry, government agencies etc. will find the numbers they want one way or another to try and justify their cause. In some peoples mind even a hotdog type injury would require forms to be filled out and a trip to the ER. Consider, even badly cutting yourself on a newly sharpened sawblade could be considered a tablesaw injury. Trying to get some good industry related safety and machine operation training is one of the best courses of action.

[Jeff Davies]

Hi Andrew- I spent over 45 years on cabinet shop floors. in the thousands of hours using a table saw, I got tagged once --in a Rube Goldberg insane progression of events that would be impossible to duplicate or protect yourself from. it was not serious. the serious injury I sustained was from incessant lifting of things that were too heavy .
I used to say it was more the man than the machine. Some guys are hyper-vigilant, they don't get surprises, they thought of what might happen and protected themselves. those guys made good cabinetmakers because not only did they realize that cross cutting shelves on the table saw could be risky, but that those same shelves may not span 30 inches without sagging - no surprises .
Other men would bind up a saw, fling a quarter sheet across the shop and then declare " wow, I din't see that a commin !!" these guys got into fender-benders with their cars and their personal lives were often trainwrecks. they were the ones that built tall bookcases and then brought them back to the shop to be cut down because they wouldn't lean up.
Back to specific tools , the injuries you don't heal from were typically dished out by jointers or large shapers . I won't talk about the collar shaper that came apart in 1973 or the guy that slid his hand into a wood frame 14 inch rip saw -both those were antiques and you would more advised to worry about being run-down by a model 'T' .
As I have opined before, if I were managing my own shop again with my choice of employees, I would not have a 'Sawstop'. If I were responsible for a shop class with people I did not train , or persons whom I did not know, I would not be without one.
Given that since you are an enthusiast, and you are asking about safety , I would say you should be fine . the guys that get hurt are almost invariably the the guys who are not interested in discussing safe operation or are just accident prone .
So ask yourself : Do you dent your truck? Have you slipped on your porch steps? Have you cut a tree and had it go the wrong way? when was the last time you broke glass?
Kind regards, J J Davies, cabinetmaker .

[Patrick Walsh]

Jeff that's to funny,

I never thought of it that way but I'd say your perspective is dead accurate..

[Rod Sheridan]

Very, good, I enjoyed reading that Jeff.............Regards, Rod.

[Randy Heinemann]

If there was anything available that had safety features like Sawstop for a bandsaw or jointer, I would look seriously at those also. For me, cutting the risk of cutting my fingers off on the tablesaw is worth every penny given that the Sawstop saws are high quality saws and cost about the same as other saws in their categories. Even if they cost more than others (and the Jobsite Saw does), I consider some price worthwhile for the piece of mind that the saw will stop if I ever do run my hand against it.

I understand the argument that people mostly are the cause of tablesaw accidents because they mishandle wood on the saw or don't use proper tablesaw cutting method. But . . . no sense losing a finger or hand because one day you made a mistake or were just inattentive for a fraction of a second. Plus, sometimes wood just doesn't act the way it is supposed to on a tablesaw.

So, if getting a Sawstop gives you piece of mind, I doubt you will ever be sorry that you bought one.

[Martin Wasner]

. . . no sense losing a finger or hand because one day you made a mistake or were just inattentive for a fraction of a second.


View it like a pilot would. When you screw up. Everybody dies. The good news is you probably won't be killed by a piece of woodworking equipment, and you won't be taking another 230 souls with you. But you might loose a digit or two as penance for your inattentiveness.

I typed out a whole bunch more, but this thread doesn't really need to go down the pro/con of black saws. We've beaten that to death over the years.

[Greg Parrish]

Jeff, that’s almost funny about the tree comment if it were not so scary. Chain saws are probably way worse than table saws due to lack of respect and misuse, combined with pure lack of thinking it through. Just go on YouTube and watch all the mayhem with tree drops gone wrong. It’s the “here, hold my beer” crowd.

[Andrew More]

Good answer Jeff. The truth is that I'm a bit absent minded, and likely to push my hand into the blade while thinking about other things, hence the question about safety. However, your point about safety is well taken, people who pay attention are less likely to get hurt. OTOH, I also watched the Jimmy Direst Tablesaw tips video where he talks about running table saws for decades without incident, and then one day put his hand into the blade. So if he can do it, I can definitely do it.

As for the last time I dented my car, I got a nice dent in the roof when a short, crappy piece of board fell out of the garage rafters. It was just long enough to fit between the two rafters, but short enough to fall after enough wind or whatnot pushed it around. Previous home owner had carefully saved that board for me just in time to make a nice dent! Boy that was an expensive "free" board. :)

[Jeff Davies]

Hey Pat & Rod, thanks for the kind words .
Andrew, I still think you will be OK . Just the fact that you are thinking about it sets you apart.
There came a time when I had been around saws so long that I could not relate at any level to those who had not . That is when I would have one of the younger guys teach the new-comers about the table saw.
One warning I gave to all my guys about table saws that I know you guys are aware, but maybe some readers are not, and I would like to pass on...when beveling long edges on man doors, suppose you have a scrap stripe left on the saw, say, 1/8th X 1 3/8ths X 80 . it is left in contact with half the blade just as it was cut off. It does not matter exactly what it is, just a scrap stripe laying there between the blade and fence. A natural tendency was to grasp it far from the blade and feed it all the way out ,,,but ,, if it is allowed to move backward any slight amount, the blade action may grab it, and the unhappy person will have a finger or two being compressed against the fence so that they cannot be withdrawn and then passed back through the blade in a fraction of a second .
This was perhaps the only specific warning I would give , partly because it is not intuitively treacherous, and partly because the results were not just a cut or a gouge, those digits are coming off, instantly.
But enough of the supposedly wise old hands boring everyone to death with valuable safety admonitions like ""make sure you never cut into barrels filled with gasoline" and "Never use full Nitro-glycerin bottles to hammer on saw blades while the saw is running " ,, , Have fun and be useful while wood whacking . Regards, JJ

[Tom Stenzel]

My first learning experience with power tool safety was when I was a teenager. I wasn't even working at the saw. Dad was ripping a section of plywood on the radial arm saw when it got away, flew across the room and hit me in the chest. I wasn't hurt but Dad just about had a coronary.

My most serious injury was when I was cutting a ceiling tile with a knife and doing a fine job. Shortly after the nice Henry Ford emergency room doctor put 4 stitches in the back of my hand and did a fine job.

My brother nicked his thumb with his table saw. I don't know the circumstances but luckily it wasn't serious.

Another brother of mine put on his safety gear and used his very sharp chainsaw to cut up some wood. When he was done he took off his safety gear. Cleaning up he was putting the chain saw back in the case. It slipped and the blade scraped his leg. That one only took 6 stitches.

My point: it can happen to you. Especially when you don't expect it.

-Tom

[Jeff Davies]

Or you can keep a sewing kit in your tool box.....that's what I always did...saves time and money. like this pic from a few years ago , me playing doctor after ""oh look, I just found a sharp chisel in that pile of shavings on the bench.""
Regards, JJ


406646

[David Utterback]

That looks a whole lot better than the 3 stitches I got in my left thumb at Urgent Care last fall. Of course, I was flopping my hand all over the place each time she shot me with the needle. It was 6 or 7 times so I think I had convinced her that I was not into pain. What type of needle did you use for the sutures?

A few more tidbits. 66% of users who contacted the blade had their hands behind the blade. I also saw that only 2.6% of users with a table saw injury were ill, or using any medication, pot or alcohol. Almost 60% of the saws used a blade directly attached to the motor (lower cost saws?). 13% were not using any protective equipment.

All in all, I think there are a lot good safety lessons in the report.


Or you can keep a sewing kit in your tool box.....that's what I always did...saves time and money. like this pic from a few years ago , me playing doctor after ""oh look, I just found a sharp chisel in that pile of shavings on the bench.""
Regards, JJ


406646

[Randy Heinemann]

In the end, I'm not sure that collected data really matters to me. What matters to me is that I reduce my chances of losing a finger or more. While I know what I'm supposed to do and have not had any finger threatening injuries in over 40 years of woodworking as a hobby, I don't believe it can't happen. If I can find an essentially fool-proof way to prevent an injury I'm going to do it.

[johnny means]

In twenty years as a professional, I've seen very few oldtimers (which I now consider myself), without some sort of amputation. Some were just a pinky without a nail. Some were the arc of horror (five digits spun through a saw blade). Most were a half finger or two. I would guess that less than one in five pros leaves this world in one piece. But that's just my observation.

[Jeff Davies]

David--" What type of needle did you use for the sutures?" ...... Medium small I guess. Too small and it's hard to thread the needle. Have done this a number of times , starting about 1979 when at the ER with a doctor, I asked what the hold-up was. He replied "waiting for an anesthesia nurse". I did not have insurance at the time and said "I am paying cash and we need to keep the payroll down ,... if you can stand it , I can ." The young intern obliged , but began shaking badly ...I put on a good laugh and said 'don't worry, I'm fairly tough'. That nice young doctor changed the charge code to 'brief exam' and I got out of there for 38 bucks. talk about reinforcing bad behavior %;<)
The next time, an old Army doc whom I was doing a job for, walked in.. . "What in hell are you doing? - Let me see that "...Humm, he says "A lot of us doctors do wood work as a pastime, but I haven't seen a dam cabinet maker who did doctoring as a hobby....I guess you'll live."
Seems like all the equipment prior to WW2 was by today's standards , insanely dangerous. One shop I worked in during the late 60's had machines dating back to the 1880's. I have no idea what their aversions to guards were. Open 40 inch bandsaw wheels, huge open gears on the side of a prehistoric planer, leather flat belts running every which way , Oh,, and the 16" swing saw....talk about Frankenstein's castle! the handle was deep and close inbetween the lightly guarded blade and the drive belt, am shuddering just looking at the picture in my mind ! JJ

[David Utterback]

With that much experience, no wonder it looks so neat. :)


David--" What type of needle did you use for the sutures?" ...... Medium small I guess. Too small and it's hard to thread the needle. Have done this a number of times , starting about 1979 when at the ER with a doctor, I asked what the hold-up was. He replied "waiting for an anesthesia nurse". I did not have insurance at the time and said "I am paying cash and we need to keep the payroll down ,... if you can stand it , I can ." The young intern obliged , but began shaking badly ...I put on a good laugh and said 'don't worry, I'm fairly tough'. That nice young doctor changed the charge code to 'brief exam' and I got out of there for 38 bucks. talk about reinforcing bad behavior %;<)
The next time, an old Army doc whom I was doing a job for, walked in.. . "What in hell are you doing? - Let me see that "...Humm, he says "A lot of us doctors do wood work as a pastime, but I haven't seen a dam cabinet maker who did doctoring as a hobby....I guess you'll live."
Seems like all the equipment prior to WW2 was by today's standards , insanely dangerous. One shop I worked in during the late 60's had machines dating back to the 1880's. I have no idea what their aversions to guards were. Open 40 inch bandsaw wheels, huge open gears on the side of a prehistoric planer, leather flat belts running every which way , Oh,, and the 16" swing saw....talk about Frankenstein's castle! the handle was deep and close inbetween the lightly guarded blade and the drive belt, am shuddering just looking at the picture in my mind ! JJ