Best quality shapers w/ small(er) footprint...

[Jeff Duncan]

So getting ready to close my shop this summer and trying to figure out what to keep and what has to go. My Martin and SCM shapers unfortunately are too big to keep, so they're going to have to move on. For the next few years the only "shop" space I'll have is in the basement which is a typical older New England style basement.... dark, damp, low ceilings and access through a door built for a hobbit. So anything I need for equipment has to fit through that entrance, and the big shapers just won't fit. Besides it really wouldn't make sense trying to power up 7 and 8 hp machines in a basement. So I'm trying to come up with alternatives. One option is to keep my Lin-Mac, an Asian made shaper thats pretty stout. It's only 3 hp which is a plus, and its tilting another plus. It's table is as large as the bigger shapers but is removable, and the base is much smaller allowing for it to fit. The downsides are the fence is really garbage and I hate setting it, and I only have a 3/4" spindle and a router collet for it which means having to get a 1-1/4" spindle made for it, as well as a phase converter of some sort. So its one viable option.

I'm curious to get others input on the possibility of a smaller footprint machine though. Not at all interested in Delta or Powermatic machines, have had both so know them well. Too light duty for my needs. Also not looking for older American made machines, like Northfields, Olivers etc.. Great machines, but don't have the flexibility I'd like. I'm looking for something not too much larger with interchangeable spindes, capability of running router bits, and something that has a decent fence. In a perfect world I could take a shrink ray and shrink the Martin down to fit. I know there are some decent modern European machines out there just haven't had any firsthand experience with them, but figured this would be the place to ask those who have. So what do folks recommend? Is there anything out there that would satisfy, or is it just a pipe dream?

thanks,
JeffD

[Brian Holcombe]

Jeff, I have no experience here but I’ve been passively looking for a older Frommia to eventually replace my router table. They appear stout and without consuming a huge footprint.

My determining factor for bringing a machine into the basement is the weight of the base once everything is removed. I wanted to bring the Maka into the basement but the base was heavy enough to snap the foot off of my hand truck and popped one of the tires so I decided not to test the load rating of my stairs and leave it in the garage.

[Kevin Jenness]

Scmi T110 is a nice size but perhaps too big a motor for your circuitry. Maybe a MiniMax T40 or T50 would be available in 5 hp single phase. I think Peter Quinn mas one of those, maybe he will post. After that, Felder? Bridgewood (long gone) had some fairly decent looking mid-size shapers that are probably still available, maybe under other brands like Sunhill, etc.

Sorry to hear you are closing up, I have enjoyed seeing your projects here and on Woodweb. Best of luck with the home shop.

[David Kumm]

Jeff, are the Felder 700 or older 7 series shapers too big for your basement? They are as versatile as a mid size shaper can be- same for MM mid size machines. The single phase motors are usually in the 4 hp range. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

I would suggest a Hammer F3, I have the B3.

The F3 is 4HP, 4 speed, tilting spindle with a sliding table.

I have a stock feeder, a tenon table and hood and a curve guard.

It comes stock with a 2 function Shaw guard.

I have the 1.25” and 30mm spindles since most tooling in the world is metric, and it let’s me use the Schleifix sanding drums........Rod

[Patrick Walsh]

I have a Felder f700z single phase 4hp variable speed. It’s not terrible heavy and if the choice was dictated by single phase as was when I purchased it I would hands down choosemthis machine over any other than maybe a Minimax.

It’s plenty fine for basic cabinetry work and the occasional millwork type cuts.

I might be willing to trade you for the t21..?

[Jeff Duncan]

Brian, I'm not as worried about weight as it's only 3 concrete steps. Of course weight is still an issue, but one I can deal with within reason.

Kevin, thanks appreciate it. I'm closing the shop and so won't be doing large projects, kitchens etc anymore, but may still post a smaller project or two in the future. I think the T-110's are similar in size to my Martin. Nice machines, but not going to fit. I'll have to look into the Mini-Max machines to see what they're about.

David, I haven't seen on in person so it's one of those I'll need to look into and check dimensions.

Rod, does your Hammer also have the ability to utilize a router bit collet? It's something I find quite handy to have.

Patrick, I'll look into the Felder dimensions as well. Does yours have router bit collet capability? The three phase thing isn't a big deal, I'll have other machines I'm keeping that I'll have to tackle that issue with as well. I wouldn't rule out a trade, I'm still early in the planning stages, but will keep in mind.

thanks guys!
Jeff

[David Kumm]

Jeff, the Felder 700 series has a router collet available but they are expensive unless you get them with the machine. 15000 rpm is the top limit. Knapp made a mid size shaper that had a router collet that ran up to 23000. Knapp machines are rare but it would fit your bill and likely be cheap if you found one. You are so used to heavy builds, it will be interesting to get your take on light duty machinery. Keep us ( me ) in the loop. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Northfield shapers have a pretty small footprint. Excellent shapers, but not really intended for constant set up changes, so probably not a great fit use wise.

[Martin Wasner]

I might be willing to trade you for the t21..?

Remember that time you went through a tablesaw nose to tail?

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, does your Hammer also have the ability to utilize a router bit collet? It's something I find quite handy to have.

Jeff

Hi Jeff, mine doesn't however with the MF spindle system the new Hammer shapers do have interchangeable spindles, and a router collet spindle.

One other item is that there are 2 lengths of table extensions available for the in and outfeed, something that's handy. I often use a table extension when doing insertion molding so I can attach stops to the tables.....Rod.

[Brian Holcombe]

I was looking at the Minimax TW55es for a little while, I believe it can be had in single phase. The motor that SCM puts into most of their single phase machines is managable. (5hp~)

Big HP is difficult to manage on single phase since it requires huge wiring and a giant circuit.

I have some experience with German machines now but not a lot, I think they are awesome stout beasts but the Minimax machines don’t let me down at all.

Still..,,might be cheaper to have a structural steel guy make a new opening in the wall and build an industrial dumb waiter system...,,just saying :D

[Jeff Duncan]

David, good to know on the Felder. Not too worried about the top speed though. Top speed on the SCM is 10k and I'm not partial to it.... sounds like an airplane taking off or something and gives me a little shiver when I run it that fast:o On the Lin-Mac I think I run maybe 6 or 8k with the router collet. The stuff I do on it doesn't usually require a higher speed like a router. As far as lighter machines.... thats going to be the real challenge in this transition. I am seriously considering keeping the 20" Delta bandsaw and just shoehorning it into the basement! Not on par with some of my other equipment, but she does the job and I'd hate to be stuck with a smaller saw.

Martin, I believe your right on both accounts. Great machines but just don't have the flexibility I'm after.

Rod, I'm not too worried about the table extensions. I have a set of Aigner extension tables that are really handy for long work. If your not familiar with them you may want to give them a look. You can pop them onto just about any machine in your shop quickly and easily. I use them on the shaper, the bandsaw, and the jointer.

thanks guys, this at least helps narrow my focus on the search. Still a lot of homework to do though.
Jeff

[Joe Calhoon]

Logosol has a really cool little shaper. Not even sure if available in the US or the cost. The shaft moves and tilts all the way over like the Hofmann. And can be used as a router, drill or mortiser. I played with one at a show and seemed to be built and engineered well for a small machine.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Jeff,

Did you ever solve this conundrum? I’m in a similar place (space wise) and came across this thread when researching shapers.

[Paul Haus]

I was reading this, even though it's an older thread. I'm kind of surprised that no one had mentioned Delta, Powermatic or Grizzly. Reversible, interchangeable spindles, reasonable footprint along with size and price. Just a thought.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I was reading this, even though it's an older thread. I'm kind of surprised that no one had mentioned Delta, Powermatic or Grizzly. Reversible, interchangeable spindles, reasonable footprint along with size and price. Just a thought.

In the OP, Jeff mentioned he wasn’t interested in that flavor of shaper because it was too light duty, which I tend to agree with.

There was a Minimax T3 with sliding table on BOYD at OWWM for $500 obo a month or so back that I almost went after but it was a 10 hr drive one way and didn’t feel like sorting out freight details / $$ but looking back, that would have been a good choice. 3 HP, Italian built, sliding table, heavier build than Taiwanese clones and old Deltas / PM. Oh well.

[Mike Kees]

Phillip I too passed up a T3 that I regretted for a while. I have a Minimax T50 with a sliding table and tilt spindle,5h.p. single phase 1 1/4'' spindle. I love this machine and use it constantly. Not sure how much space you have available but this one is not super small. I could measure the footprint at my shop and let you know. The t40 are a nice size and 3h.p. 1 1/4'' spindle is pretty common.

[Bobby Robbinett]

We have been looking for good deals on used SCMI or similar shapers so if any of you fine gentleman have one or more to part with please give me a call at (870)679-9618.

[Jared Sankovich]

Jeff,

Did you ever solve this conundrum? I’m in a similar place (space wise) and came across this thread when researching shapers.

How much space do you have to work with?

[Phillip Mitchell]

How much space do you have to work with?

Hah, not enough...I’m in a basement shop that’s maybe 400 sq ft of chopped up but usable shop space with lots of obstacles. A footprint / table size of 3’x3’ with a sliding table or a sliding table that could come off fairly easily would be about the max I could shoe-horn in, unless I got rid of the big Tannewitz Model U table saw and replaced that space with a shaper, which I’ve considered...it has about a 42”x42” ish table.

[Jared Sankovich]

Hah, not enough...I’m in a basement shop that’s maybe 400 sq ft of chopped up but usable shop space with lots of obstacles. A footprint / table size of 3’x3’ with a sliding table or a sliding table that could come off fairly easily would be about the max I could shoe-horn in, unless I got rid of the big Tannewitz Model U table saw and replaced that space with a shaper, which I’ve considered...it has about a 42”x42” ish table.

3x3 would fit the "small/medium" size imports. My bridgewood 511 is 36 wide and 28 or 29" deep (but needs another 10" for the dust collection hose on the fence.) The 511s regardless of manufacturer are super common, and relatively capable, sometimes 5.5hp, usually 7.5.

Otherwise a wadkin bursgreen brs seems to be about the most cast iron in a compact package, finding one will be the issue.

[Phillip Mitchell]

3x3 would fit the "small/medium" size imports. My bridgewood 511 is 36 wide and 28 or 29" deep (but needs another 10" for the dust collection hose on the fence.) The 511s regardless of manufacturer are super common, and relatively capable, sometimes 5.5hp, usually 7.5.

Otherwise a wadkin bursgreen brs seems to be about the most cast iron in a compact package, finding one will be the issue.

Thanks Jared. I’ll keep my eyes open for a 511 machine. Looks like a decent compromise in a small shop. Is there a European machine (Italian?) that comes to mind that is a very similar size / capability?

I watched a few videos of Jack’s on the Wadkin BRS. Looks like a sweet little machine...I think you’re right though, that they are a bit difficult to track down in fully operational condition. Probably looking for something a bit newer for a shaper actually, which is usually the opposite way I lean with machines.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks Jared. I’ll keep my eyes open for a 511 machine. Looks like a decent compromise in a small shop. Is there a European machine (Italian?) that comes to mind that is a very similar size / capability?

I watched a few videos of Jack’s on the Wadkin BRS. Looks like a sweet little machine...I think you’re right though, that they are a bit difficult to track down in fully operational condition. Probably looking for something a bit newer for a shaper actually, which is usually the opposite way I lean with machines.

Not having seen one in person but the griggio t100 is similar in size to the 511 and I'd assume capability.

The scm t100 is smaller.

[Warren Lake]

SCM had some smaller foot print shapers and likely the T100 or 110. I saw beige ones at one auction and only once and they went way too high price wise at that auction. Even the auction guy was stunned.

Be hard to go backwards on a shaper or any machine once you have had better quality it will take patience to go backwards.

[Phillip Mitchell]

SCM had some smaller foot print shapers and likely the T100 or 110. I saw beige ones at one auction and only once and they went way too high price wise at that auction. Even the auction guy was stunned.

Be hard to go backwards on a shaper or any machine once you have had better quality it will take patience to go backwards.

Yes to both of those points. I’ve watched SCM shapers at auctions go for a good bit more than I’d consider a good price for me and always shake my head. Wouldn’t mind a smaller SAC shaper with sliding table...sometimes they seem to fly under the radar a little more than SCM even though they are built heavier by most accounts.

That’s my problem is that all my machines are either vintage Italian (SCM and the like) or old American arn (Oliver, Tannewitz, Powermatic) and I don’t really want to bring in a Taiwanese machine, though I’m sure some of the better QC brands/models would likely be just fine. Less of a political/purist thing and more of a quality / reliability / simplicity thing.

[Mike Kees]

Phillip I have looked at the 511 machines and they are well built. I just bought a Cantek P20 HV planer with a helical head, Cantek is one of the brands selling 511,512 shapers. I am pretty positive this will be my last planer. Most of my machinery is Euro stuff ,and this planer is right there . Also just bought a Delta/Invicta RS 15 shaper with a 7.5 h.p. motor. The build is very similar in the 512 shapers to the Invicta but a bit smaller and lighter.

[Jared Sankovich]

Yes to both of those points. I’ve watched SCM shapers at auctions go for a good bit more than I’d consider a good price for me and always shake my head. Wouldn’t mind a smaller SAC shaper with sliding table...sometimes they seem to fly under the radar a little more than SCM even though they are built heavier by most accounts.

That’s my problem is that all my machines are either vintage Italian (SCM and the like) or old American arn (Oliver, Tannewitz, Powermatic) and I don’t really want to bring in a Taiwanese machine, though I’m sure some of the better QC brands/models would likely be just fine. Less of a political/purist thing and more of a quality / reliability / simplicity thing.

Lots more options if you were looking for a T130 sized machine. My casolin was about 1/3 of the going price for a used scmi.


The 511 was sold as the delta 43-791/792, and the powermatic 29. The current powermatic ps29 is a 512 or 513.

I

[Mike Delyster]

I found a T110 a few years ago, less than an hour from my shop. It came with a very handy bolt on slider attachment. I really like this setup. I think it was near the end of the green ones, the sliding attachment is the more recent color combination.
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