Crawlspace to workshop conversion?

[Andy Fox]

Hi all,

Thought I'd ask something a little different for my first post.... :)

I currently work (for fun) out of a mostly uninsulated and underpowered two car garage which is always either too hot or too cold, and it tends to attract cars :mad:, trash, lawn tools, and mosquitoes. I have a partial basement adjacent to a "duckspace"--called this because there's enough room in there to walk rather than crawl, as long as anyone over 5'7" ducks a little. :D When we had the house production-built 8 years ago, we could've had a full basement for $3,000, or a walkout basement for $8,000. :rolleyes: I'm thinking about hiring a contractor and having the house lifted and the duckspace excavated to create a full basement with about 1/2 of it being workshop.

I've heard that house movers and foundation contractors do stuff like this, but would like to hear how it went from someone who actually did it. Disconnecting all mechanicals and lifting the house sounds pretty scary! :eek:

Here are the duckspace facts:

Dimensions 9'6" x 26'
Potential full basement dimensions: 25' x 26'
Potential workshop dimensions (includes part of current basement): 13' x 26'
8" Concrete block walls supporting two story wood-framed house
20" high concrete block wall to step up from the basement
Floor is plastic/gravel-covered dirt
One 26' wall of duckspace is 3' exposed above grade due to slope in backyard. This could allow a small Bobcat access to the crawlspace with a little digging and wall demolition. The access hole would be a convenient location for French doors for walkout access.Questions:

Maybe not worth the risk of property/mechanical/dust damage?
Am I crazy? :confused:
Any guesses what the cost might be?Other options I'm considering:

Finishing and heating attached garage and running a subpanel ($2,000-3,000 cost)
Moving to a house with a big basement ($10,000-$20,000 min. cost, but we wouldn't mind moving anyway, for other reasons)

[Bob Nazro]

Andy,
Seems to me you could build a detached shop with more space than excavate your basement and risk moving the house. You would also be keeping the paint/stain/ fininsing smells and sawdust out of your house. See what the cost is, but I would opt for the seperate facility if the dollars worked out. Just my $0.02 worth.

[John Miliunas]

Hey Andy, welcome to the Creek!:)

If given a choice, I would most always opt for a seperate facility. Yes, lots of guys have basement shops and there are certain advantages, especially with HVAC. BUT, that same advantage can work against you. Ducts carry sound, fumes and dust. Even without ducts, as in radiant heat, you still have higher levels of the above in the house (typically). Also, unless it's an unusual building plan, your headroom will also be somewhat limited. Probably 8' tops, usually less, depending on style of house and where/how utilities are run. If you can swing it, go to the stand-alone shop!:) :cool:

[Andy Fox]

Forgot to mention.... I live in a neighborhood with deed restrictions which prohibit any type of outbuilding. I'd be in hot water if I built a 2' x 4' storage shed.:rolleyes:

When we bought/built the house, I wasn't interested in woodworking at all. I would've made different choices now.

[David Wilson]

Andy. Welcome aboard. I also would recomend a seperate shop.

[Art Mulder]

I'm thinking about hiring a contractor and having the house lifted and the duckspace excavated to create a full basement with about 1/2 of it being workshop.

I've heard that house movers and foundation contractors do stuff like this, but would like to hear how it went from someone who actually did it. Disconnecting all mechanicals and lifting the house sounds pretty scary! :eek:


Andy,

No personal knowledge. However, we have friends in town who had that exact thing done to their house in August of 2004. It was an older (50-100yr) house. The house was jacked, everything disconnected, they had to move out for a few weeks, the old foundation was knocked down. they dug it all out with a small bobcat, poured new footings, poured a new wall, and set 'er back down and hooked things up.

They now have a lovely basement. Decent sized windows. Tall ceiling. Dry. Now, in their case, it was an older house, with lathe and plaster, and it had sagged out of plumb. The act of jacking the house levelled it in the span of minutes - versus the weeks that is normally advocated for tweaking your teleposts. This resulted in a LOT of plaster damage to the house. They basically had to rip down and replace the plaster in two of the bedrooms.

It is a huge disruption to the family

Here is another consideration... I don't recall which magazine, but I have read of of people who dug down their basement about 18" without jacking up the house. (Actually, I think it was in Fine Homebuilding). Less disruption to the house, but a bit more labour intensive. The foundation was replaced in sections.

I think you can also do it where you dig down without touching the walls, so you end up with a 1-2' "seat" around the edge of the basement, and a deeper section in the middle. No messing with the footings in that case.

best wishes,

[Rob Russell]

Andy,

Welcome to SMC.

If you're in an area where outbuildings are prohibited (which you pretty obviously state), then your choices are limited to the basement or garage. I think you'll find that the cost to raise the house, excavate and put concrete under there will make moving financially attractive.

If: you can move to another house that has a walkout basement,
the move is only $20K,
you don't mind the move,I think you'll be happier with the new house.

I'd be surprised if you can raise and put a foundation under the house for $20K. I also wouldn't do concrete block - it can leak a lot more easily than a poured foundation.

Rob

[Scott Loven]

If you deside on jacking the house, why not go 9 feet? Give you enough room to stand a sheet of plywood on end, and enough room for a dust collection system.
Scott

[Steven Shelby]

Welcome, Andy!

It strikes me that the most cost efficient, legal way to get you the shop you want is to put a little money and effort into turning the garage into a comfortable and workable shop.

We recently moved into a house with a finished basement. I had originally planned on demo'ing some walls and turning the basement into a shop. As I continued to consider my options, I realized that I could take my 24x24 garage and make a heckuva shop. I was facing many of the issues you are talking about: cold, heat, lack of power.

I designed the shop to be mostly against walls with all tools on rollers. I insulated and called an electrician. While the expense was small, I got a great shop (or at least the work is in progress) and I didn't have to demo half the basement or build another building.

Give it some thought. There is a design on WoodMagazine.com called Idea Shop 2, which gave me a good beginning and some great ideas. The guys here at the Creek will certainly be happy to give you our .02.

Have fun!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Andy........First....Welcome to the Creek!

I would be surprised if you can get your house raised and the basement enlarged for $20,000. Then you have to put up with the trials of having a basement shop. What kind of access do you have for bringing machinery and materials into the basement shop? If you have a basement shop, it's difficult to prevent migration of sawdust and finishing fumes from ending up in the living quarters. I know my wife wouldn't put up with the mess and the hassle.

I'd consider 2 alternatives:


1. Rework your garage; upgrade the wiring, insulate and install heat. Put all of your tools on rollers. If well planned a lot of people do well with this.

2. Consider moving to a different house with either a separate shop or an attached shop that utilizes it's own heating and/or cooling system.

Regardless........Welcome to the Creek and Good Luck with your decision!

[Brett Baldwin]

I would go with either the finished garage option or the moving option. I would be very surprised if you could convert your basement and finish it out for less than $50,000.

If your your garage is big enough for your needs already then finishing it out would be your least expensive and stressful option. It may not add as much value to your home as the cost though so it would be mostly an expense. (as opposed to a finished basement which could add value but probably not $50K worth).

[Vaughn McMillan]

Welcome to the Creek, Andy. Add me to the chorus of voices who think raising the house would be the most expensive option (even compared to the new house idea). Back in the mid-80's I was involved in work on some relatively new houses that had subsided, and the contractor was jacking the house and replacing the slab on grade and foundation with a monolithic post-tensioned slab/foundation combination. As I recall, this was costing about $80,000 per house, and that was about 20 years ago. You could do a heck of a garage renovation for $80K. ;)

- Vaughn

[John Bailey]

Andy,

You've probably thought of this already, but is there a chance you could add on to the garage. I've seen some pretty nice add-ons to garages. If you can use part of your garage now, it wouldn't take that much to make a fairly decent sized shop. Don't know what your set-up is, but it would be a relatively inexpensive way to do it.

John

[Andy Fox]

Thanks all!

After reading all of these replies, I think I'm going to focus on drawing up some plans for getting the attached two car garage functional as a shop. Moving somewhere with land for a dedicated shop is still a good future option, but we tried to sell for 6 months this year with no offers, and we're done with trying for a while.

I've been reading many of the previous threads on shop design and layout, and have gotten many great ideas! I think the garage is probably a safer and healthier option than the basement anyway, especially with kids!

[Andy Fox]

You've probably thought of this already, but is there a chance you could add on to the garage.

John, thanks. I live in a tract neighborhood where the houses are 5' from the lot line. I have a "larger" lot with my house angled due to being on the corner, and the front of my garage is about 15' from the lot line. Adding onto the side would give me a 10' x 8' addition. I could probably add 6' onto the front too. This might free up some space and give me more room to store the non-woodworking stuff.

[Jim O'Dell]

Andy, I'll add my welcome to the Creek as well. It's a great place to bounce ideas around, as I believe you've already experienced.
I agree with John...is it possible to add on to the garage? If not, do the current garage as is with the upgrades you need in electrical, and plan a shop based on mobile equipment if you still need to get other items in it from time to time. Keep us informed on what you decide, and remember, pictures of the progress are required!!:D Jim.

[Alan Schaffter]

Digging out a crawl space is doable. A guy with a frame over brick/block house in my neighborhood had his 3' crawl space dug out for a 9' full basement. A small backhoe dug holes for temporary footers, one at a time, around the foundation. Then he undercut the footer to the inside edge with a shovel. Concrete was poured for these new "big" temporary footers. Once they were done - don't remember how many, but at least one in each corner and maybe one each, midwall- enough to support the house, he punched a hole in the foundation wall and had a small Bobcat dig down until he could get under the sole plate and excavate the crawl space and. He also dug out for new drain tiles and a sump pump well (wet soil area), poured new footers, and installed block up to bottom of (inside?) the old footers, then poured a new basement floor. He did it fairly cheaply- friendly labor and a lot of self-help. It made a mess of his yard and not sure what he did with all the dirt. He also lost about 1-2' of floor space around the perimeter because the new basement walls were located inside the inner edge of the old footer. I think you would need a "certified" engineering plan to get approval to do something like that.

You might also be able to dig out the duck space, by punching holes in the foundation and install temporary I-beams to support, without actually jacking, the house.

[Bart Leetch]

When I was about 17 years old my Dad who is a retired building contractor & I dug out under the house.
Here is what we did. Using 4x12 across under the existing beams & steel posts with concrete pads we raised (jacked) just enough to bear the weight & installed short posts & pads & installing a beam then knocked out the foundation at the end of the house & started digging with a tracked loader leaving the current foundation in place under the old part of the house we kept the new basement back 3'- 4' everywhere accept the end where we knocked out the foundation & dug down installing a beam & 10’ posts as needed to help support the house. We also added a big living room with basement under it. After the digging was done a 4’ high foundation was poured & the wall was studded up from there to the ceiling. I don’t see why you couldn’t dig the basement as deep as needed to get the ceiling height you want.

Oh I forgot we didn't disconnect anything & lived in the house the whole time.

[Bill Fields]

Andy--

Trust me on this--sell.

The incredible hassle, expense, dislocation and probability of an unsatisfactory outcome of trying to force the property and existing structure into something it is not--arrggh!

Well you get the idea. There is developable property somewhere -- be it an existing house , or a new contruction--that can fit your family and woodworking needs.

I say all this with no knowledge of your goals, means and energy level--so forgive me for that.

BILL FIELDS

[tod evans]

andy, welcome! if it`s within your means try to keep the sawdust seperate from where you live, you will be much happier and your marriage will not be taxed:) .02 tod

[Sparky Paessler]

Andy

I just finished digging out 300sf of crawl space out from under my house. Having Very hard clay I was able to dig to within 18" of the old foundation. I then poured the floors and layed block walls. I poured concrete on the shelf that went from the top of the new wall to the old wall. I did mine by hand since I didn't have room to manuver a bobcat in the basement. Used a demolision Hammer with a clay spade on it to break up the clay. Shoved it into a yard cart and pulled it out with my lawn tractor. Was a lot of Work but now I have a lot more room and was a lot less money per square foot than building a seperate building. I will post pictures sometime now that it is finished.

[CPeter James]

Looks to me with the options you have and the fact that you said you don't mind moving, that this would be the thing to do. Find a place that either has or you could build a separate shop. My shop is 50 feet from the house. Near enough to make the run on a cold winter morning and far enough to keep the noise, dust ans smells out of the house.

CPeter

[Neil Bosdet]

My thoughts were similar to what Bart has done. I wouldn't lift the house. I'd move instead of doing something like that.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I think it would be very costly to raise the house. I decided to move to a place where the shop was detached and I LOVE IT! Good luck in whatever choise you make!

[Chris Mann]

I had my foundation underpinned last year. Dropped the floor in the basement 2 feet and excavated the crawlspace under the porch/living room. It was much more than $20k. The job was pretty much a disaster. Took three times as long, went way over budget, lots of bickering and pointing fingers, but it's done now. The house was built in 1912, the current basement was a glorified root cellar and had a creek through it when it rained. Now we have 8.5' ceilings and radiant heat in the slab. Plus with the cost of housing in the DC area we couldn't have found anything better anyhow. Especially not in the area we wanted to live. Most everything has 6.5' basements around here.

For a new house in the burbs I'd recommend moving or building a bigger garage.

[Bart Leetch]

Referring back to my previous post I don't believe this is all that hard of a job. The width of your house will determined if you can step back 3'-4' from the current foundation. If you can This is the way to go because you don't need to raise the house & can live in it while you build the basement. I know from first hand on the spot experience.

I still remember how before this project I thought Dad had an easy job running the dozer on another project.

Well he put me on the Dozer to push the dirt away that he dug out & dumped up on top of the bank of the basement with the tracked loader. Gee Dad it isn't easy running a dozer all day but to this day I still love running a dozer & used to run a D7 in the National Guard.

I wouldn't hesitate 1 moment to get in there & jack & set the beams & start excavating.

So how big could your shop be if you set your walls back 3'-4' from the original foundation accept on the end where you would start the excavation?

[Reg Mitchell]

Hello Andy,
I would only inject one item....insurance. I am not sure what it would be but I do know that a workshop attached to your home will raise the insurance.
Thats the reason when I was looking to build a home it didn't include looking into restricted property. And I really do like looking at deer, turky and an occasiona fox or cyote running through the yard :)

[Andy Fox]

Bart,

Here's a GIF drawing of my current basement and another of my potential basement if I get off my behind and start digging. I'm not sure I understand where all the footer setbacks would need to be, so maybe this drawing will help me figure it out. A 3' ledge (along back wall at top of drawing, adjacent to deck) sounds like it my reduce my narrowest workshop floor dimension to a max of 10', and I don't think I could put in a walkout if there's a 20" ledge there?

[Andy Fox]

My wife and I were talking about the duckspace to workshop conversion, and she recalled how we were thinking of adding on living space to the back of the house. We were thinking of a den and maybe extending the kitchen. She pointed out that we could also add a laundry room and storage closet, and that would free up even more space for a workshop in the basement without digging out the duckspace. If the addition gets big enough, it could have a full basement which could be a workshop. An addition would be easier to build, benefit the entire family, and increase the value of our house more. But, that project is probably a year or more into the future.

This weekend I was looking at the sketches of my basement I posted, and I realized that it wouldn't be that difficult to setup a shop in my partial basement as it is now. I had hoped to wall off the duckspace section and use it to reduce dust getting to the rest of the house and the laundry area and furnace.

I started a new topic for my temporary? basement workshop setup.

Thanks to everyone who replied for the many ideas and suggestions and reality-checks!

Andy