Why not a 96" Biesmeyer ??

[Marc Jeske]

So I have a 52", and can cut just past a half 8' panel.

When I want to cut a 4x8 to 4x 7' I have 7' to left of blade that needs outboard support.

So now, while brainstorming options for larger saw overall work surface..

I have plenty of room to extend in either direction.

I'm starting to think.. Would it be better to extend to right and fab a 96" Bies rail and permanent ext table ?

*** Assume for this conversation it can accurately solidly properly be done.

I'm wondering - Don't many of you think a rail longer than the " 52" " if you had room be better or worse than cutting to left?

Marc

[Cary Falk]

Putting 7' between the blade and the fence on the right would be easier then putting 1' between the fence and the blade on the right. You could have your fence on the left of the blade and 7' away from blade with the same results. On a 4x8 sheet of plywood it would be a little awkward. I wouldn't do it on a 16"x8' board like you were asking about in the other post. Too much chance of racking. Didn't you say that the end may or may not be square? Just ripping off an end is not going to fix something that is not square.

[Marc Jeske]

This would be in a case starting w a good square edge... w a full 4' along the fence.

Otherwise it would be back to the sled.

Marc

[Michelle Rich]

IMHO you are trying to overshoot the capacity of your saw. Racking will be your issue and that can be very dangerous. Get a circular saw or a track saw and you will achieve your goals easily.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I've knocked down 4' X 8' sheets down a foot or so more times than I can remember. Get a good circular saw and a cross cut guide. Always use tape on both sides to minimize splinters.

Many years ago, when I did this stuff for a living, we had a table saw set up to do what you are suggesting. I was a lowly apprentice, but even the most experienced (Delta Uni), would have minor (blade burns) to major (going off line of cut). Being in the 1970's, safety items, such as splitters, if available, were removed. Every once in a while, a piece of ply would ride up off the blade. Not exactly a kickback, but definitely called for a change of drawers.

[Rhys Hurcombe]

Would be much better getting a sliding panel saw. Way easier to manage large panels with higher accuracy IMO.

[Jacob Reverb]

Sounds about like trying to cut an inch off the end of a telephone pole using your miter gage and rip fence simultaneously. Lots of kickback potential.

[Justin Rapp]

breaking down full sheets is much safer with a long straight edge clamped to a well supported board and a good circular saw. If you need to cross-cut or rip you can support the sheet on a sacrificial 4x8 foam insulation sheet and set your saw blade to just enough to cut the plywood sheet. The insulation sheet protects your blade from destroying your supporting table (2x4's on saw horses)

[Frederick Skelly]

I deliberately bought a saw with a 52" Biese, thinking it would be great for breaking down sheetgoods. But I never really felt comfortable handling that 4x8' sheet, on that tablesaw, all by myself. For me, it just didnt feel well controlled. So I broke them down with a circ saw and later a track saw.

Cutting off 1' with the fence left of the blade sounds worse to me than extending your Biese to the right and doing it. But personally, I wouldn't be comfortable making that cut either way. I'm thinking about racking, like Michelle. YMMV.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
If you have to perform this operation repeatedly, then maybe a vertical panel saw would be a good option for you, if you have the space.

Just like they use in every Home Depot store for ripping and crosscutting plywood. I think Milwaukee makes a nice one that's more affordable than the industrial ones.

[John Gornall]

Go ahead with a 96 inch fence. Lots of shops had 96 in the old days. Delta had the Unifence in 96 inch in the catalog.

[Bradley Gray]

maybe a vertical panel saw would be a good option for you,

+1 on this

[Ben Rivel]

Yea panel saw or track saw for breaking down sheets. I have yet to need past 36" on my table saw. handling pieces larger than that on a table saw IMO just isnt safe. Too unwieldy for me.

[Mark Bolton]

In my opinion your breaking the cardinal rule of never ripping anything with the fence that is wider than it is long. Major kickback nightmare there. Imagine pushing a 4x8 sheet through the saw trying to cut it to 7' with the 7' between the fence and the blade. You will be standing behind a rectangular frisbee that will without a doubt come back at you. Cut a piece 2'x4' and look at feeding it though the saw with the 4' between the fence and the blade. Nightmare waiting to happen.

[Matt Day]

I agree, you’re using the the wrong tool for the job, just like in your other thread.

Tools to consider that would do the job better and safer:
Track saw
Panel saw
Sliding table saw

[Nick Decker]

Marc, several people have mentioned track saws. If you've never used one, you're like me before I fully understood just how good they are. For large crosscuts like you describe, I don't think a table saw can rival the accuracy and clean cuts of a good track saw, to say nothing of the safety issue. Maybe a slider, I don't know.

The Festoolers swear by that brand. Me, I'm happily amazed by my Makita.

[Edwin Santos]

Marc, several people have mentioned track saws. If you've never used one, you're like me before I fully understood just how good they are. For large crosscuts like you describe, I don't think a table saw can rival the accuracy and clean cuts of a good track saw, to say nothing of the safety issue. Maybe a slider, I don't know.

The Festoolers swear by that brand. Me, I'm happily amazed by my Makita.

Marc, In case you perceive the track saw as being a pain to set up versus just walking up to your table saw, keep in mind that with the track saw, you could gang cut two, possibly three pieces at a time and regain some efficiency that way.

To add to the convenience, here is a link to a crosscutting jig Fine Woodworking showcases in this video. Pretty simple to make and keep in the corner for when you need it and of course you could size it to your purpose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ateKCJx069w.

[Frederick Skelly]

To add to the convenience, here is a link to a crosscutting jig Fine Woodworking showcases in this video. Pretty simple to make and keep in the corner for when you need it and of course you could size it to your purpose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ateKCJx069w.

Thanks for the idea and the link Edwin!
Fred

[Jacob Reverb]

In my opinion your breaking the cardinal rule of never ripping anything with the fence that is wider than it is long. Major kickback nightmare there.

+1

For an analogy, imagine trying to rip an inch off the edge of a 96" x 10" board using nothing more than your miter gage (if the miter gage bar were long enough).

Think about how the board would have a tendency to wander, twist and bind the blade (and kick back).

[Marc Jeske]

We don't have racking trouble when we set our fence at 49" and cut an 8' L to R full sheet.

IF one has large ext tables, it can safely and accurately be done by one person.

At least once on the table, I think we agree on this ?

And actually, I still always do have a helper for large sheets.



Why would there be any problem if fence were able to be set at 86" ?


My potentially proposed "96" " bies would be super solid in all ways as my current 52.

When I installed my 52 ext table.. I added welded steel framing so was substantially braced... solid in all directions as Gibralter.

Not only does it depend on the standard Bies bar, angles, legs.. but there is a braced 3x3x1/4" angle mobile base .. after all is tied together.. effectively as solid as a Northfield factory wings.

So all I am saying is - I propose to make a very concientiously designed and executed super solid 96" system. And it will have permanent very solid ext tables in also all other directions... infeed table will readily be shiftable L to R.

I fully realize that for production use this is not optimal... but at my level I am ok w it.

John said - "... Lots of shops had 96 in the old days. Delta had the Unifence in 96 inch in the catalog."

I suppose they fell out of favor w the intro of Euro panel saws, vert panel saws, and now w the track saws.

But was there any problem w them otherwise ?

Jacob said - "For an analogy, imagine trying to rip an inch off the edge of a 96" x 10" board using nothing more than your miter gage (if the miter gage bar were long enough).

Think about how the board would have a tendency to wander, twist and bind the blade (and kick back)."

Thank you but I am well aware of this issue and would not do that... anything ratio'd like that would be on an appropriate sled. and would never have the cutoff end restricted.

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

Honestly.. I think for me it all goes back to a lifelong desire for a TS w a BIG SOLID work surface.

That's why I picked up the R/D 12/14... I did NOT need the deeper cut... but for the stability, table size, and romance of it.

Marc

[Jacob Reverb]

We don't have racking trouble when we set our fence at 49" and cut an 8' L to R full sheet.

But cutting the edge off an 8' sheet of plywood would mean having a lever arm almost twice as long. Much more tendency to rack.

I don't think anyone cares whether or not you do what you've proposed. You asked for opinions, and you got them.

Good luck. Don't stand behind the blade.

[Marc Jeske]

I don't understand the geometry of any problem making a cut w one foot "drop" to left of blade, and 7' between blade and fence on a good solid foundation.

The above refers to a 4x8 sheet w 4' bearing against fence.

In fact, is that not less "lever arm" than crosscutting in CENTER of 4x8 ?

What am I missing ?



Marc

[Frederick Skelly]

Stay safe Marc.
Fred

[Matt Day]

You ask for opinions, you get them, and basically ignore them.

You don’t understand the levering action we are all talking about. Having a longer board left to right than against the fence. That makes you’re idea a bad one from a safety standpoint. What’s not to understand?

You’re not listening.

[Marc Jeske]

You ask for opinions, you get them, and basically ignore them.

You don’t understand the levering action we are all talking about. Having a longer board left to right than against the fence. That makes you’re idea a bad one from a safety standpoint. What’s not to understand?

You’re not listening.

I was away a bit here and thought about the lever thing.

I thought something different was being explained.. in my mind.. I did not even consider the above because I thought THAT was obvious.. rather I was digging in my head tying to understand past that.

If that makes any sense.

I think I am listening.. but thought it was about something "deeper"

Feeling frustrated here.

OK.. So are you Folks saying it is basically unsafe to get much more L to R between blade and fence than the ballpark 40" or so whatever the fence length is?

Further.. so that is another reason why most fences max out at around 50" ?

And yet further... Are you saying there is no truly safe way to have a "drop" piece narrower than ballpark 50"

So one more then - I'm wanting to end up w a 4 x 7 usable piece, it should have the 7' to left of blade?

Problem I have w that is even if on a large L ext table, as the cut is nearing completion.. it is too easy to open or close the kerf hence getting a very possible uneven cut on the keeper 7' piece.. including that tiny hanging chad chip at the very end evidencing one allowed the kerf to open at the end, hence the last 1/8 snapped open rather than clean cut.

Have patience Guys and please realize I am generally quite safety conscious and analytical... normally anyway. :)

Marc

[Matt Day]

Last time. Pick one:
Track saw
Panel saw
Sliding table saw

Note that the TS is NOT on the list.

[Marc Jeske]

I did read that.. I look at all posts multiple times.


Could we forget for the moment aALL my previous posts.. and let me just ask..

WHY did the "old days" saws mentioned above w the 8 or even 10' fence go out of style ?

Was it SAFETY reasons ?

OR.... the fact that more efficient and practical saw configurations were developed and marketed ?

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

In this older thread, majority says go w the wider option.

I understand diminishing returns.. To eggaretate.. obviously no point to a 20' fence.. but does this not support a 96" over a 52" if one has the space and does not want to deal w a tracksaw ?

Marc

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?141853-Cabinet-saw-Is-wide-rip-capacity-all-that-important/page3

[Frederick Skelly]

Last time. Pick one:
Track saw
Panel saw
Sliding table saw

Note that the TS is NOT on the list.

Why the snarky stuff Matt? There's no value in it. The man said he is trying to understand.
Fred

[Edwin Santos]

I did read that.. I look at all posts multiple times.


Could we forget for the moment aALL my previous posts.. and let me just ask..

WHY did the "old days" saws mentioned above w the 8 or even 10' fence go out of style ?

Was it SAFETY reasons ?

OR.... the fact that more efficient and practical saw configurations were developed and marketed ?

Marc

I've never heard of a table saw with a fence capacity of more than 50" right of blade. If there was an "old days" saw that had a wider capacity, I cannot fathom why, unless it was designed for sheet goods that came in a considerably larger sizes than are typical today.
If there was such a saw, then I would surmise it was discontinued for safety reasons, not because of slider saws appearing on the market. To have such a large fence capacity is inviting someone to do what you are proposing which is inherently unsafe due to the laws of physics. I think Mark Bolton summed it up in his post - the cardinal rule is to never cut anything on a table saw AGAINST THE FENCE that is wider than it is long. Doing so increases the risk of kickback dramatically.

Illustrate this principle by taking your two hands and placing them on the desk in front of you about 6" apart. Push your right hand forward away from you representing the workpiece pushed along the fence. Simultaneously pull your left hand back toward you slowly representing the blade's forward motion which is pushing the work piece in the operator direction. Imagine these two opposing forces working against each other. Now do the same exercise with your hands two feet apart. Do you see the levering occurring? Now you could overcome this levering and the opposing forces by pushing against your rock solid fence and rails really really hard, but you are being advised not to do this because physics is not on your side and the people responding don't want to see you get hurt.

Footnote: drag on the surface of your table saw makes this equation much worse. Even if you waxed the heck out of your table saw's surface, the sheer area of the work pieces you are contemplating will create enough drag to encourage the work to lever. Another footnote: part of the challenge is pushing the workpiece evenly across it's width. If you push too hard, far way from the blade - lever city. If you push too hard near the blade, you could lose your bearing against the fence - lever city.

On a personal note, I have never been cut at the table saw, but I have had one kickback incident. It involved a piece of 1/4" ply that was about 30" square. It dragged on the table just a wee bit, enough to create a slight levering, such that one of the back teeth on the blade caught it, rotated it around, and smacked me in the abdomen.

I hope the above example makes some constructive sense.

Edwin

[Frederick Skelly]

"If there was such a saw, then I would surmise it was discontinued for safety reasons, not because of slider saws appearing on the market."

+1. I had the very same thought Edwin.

[Marc Jeske]

Why the snarky stuff Matt? There's no value in it. The man said he is trying to understand.
Fred

Actually, I am the guilty one who generally started the snarkiness.

It's all good, no problem.

But I do get very frustrated when folks don't seem to be reading.. thinking I am cutting within a glass microparticle Silicosis storm.. after I clearly explained it is 1/8 tsp FAR from the blade on the extension tables.

I probably should have made that last point clearer.

In person give and take Socratic is way easier than texting back and forth.

Marc

[Matt Day]

Why the snarky stuff Matt? There's no value in it. The man said he is trying to understand.
Fred

Why the snarky stuff? How many more times does it need to be said that there’s risk of the stock shifting and therefore kickback? What more is there to understand?

What about using two incra type miter gauges, one in the standard right miter slot, and install another miter bar 5’ to the right, and tie them together. I have a 52” long bar , for instance, that would work. Push from the middle.

[Phillip Mitchell]

If efficiency and accuracy with this one particular cut is what you're concerned with, which seems to be why you're asking the questions to begin with (maybe not? pardon me if I'm wrong here) you should get a track saw and cut 2 (or 3 with a TS75) sheets simultaneously without having to move them to the table saw and feed a full sheet across a table. Cutting a small amount off one edge or end of a full sheet of plywood is certainly easier, less fatiguing in the long term, potentially faster if you stage your material properly and way safer than what you keep proposing on a table saw.

If you really just want a 96" fence and massive side feed support on your table saw, go to town and do it...but thinking that it's an overall better way to accomplish the particular task you've outlined is misguided in my (and many others') opinions.

Track saws are new fangled and cost money, yes, but there's a reason they are popular and it's because they are fantastic at breaking down full sheet goods and solving solving some of the issues inherent with dealing with full sheets of ply on a traditional table saw.

[johnny means]

Same reason you don't put a ladder rack and tool box on a Porsche. Sure it could be done and used, but the utility and results would be poor. They make vans for a reason.

[Andrew Seemann]

I never quite understood why Biesemeyer made a 96" fence for a table saw. I have seen pictures of saws with them, but only maybe a half dozen in 30 years. I could maybe see a 60" fence for 5x5 baltic birch sheets, but nothing really comes wider than 5x5, so any more than that doesn't really have a purpose.

The safety issue is that the blade wants to push the material back at you. To prevent this you push diagonally to against the fence to simultaneously move the material forward and counteract the pushback from the blade, while the fence keeps the material aligned with the blade and kerf. On a board wider than long, the blade has more leverage to push back at you and overcome your diagonal pushing. If it does overcome your diagonal pushing, the blade stops cutting the wood fibers and starts pushing(throwing) the wood at you, known as kickback. It gets really dangerous when you get to the end of the cut and don't have much purchase against the fence and you have little mechanical advantage in your diagonal pushing. That is when it is easy to loose control of the material and have the blade grab it and throw it back at you. On a piece of plywood where you would be cutting 2 feet off of a 4x8 sheet with your fence set at 6 feet, it would be nearly impossible to push against the fence enough to overcome the push of the blade back at you, especially at the end of the cut. Ergo, what could possibly be the use of a 96" rip fence? There really isn't any safe way to use that extra capacity.

I had a similar experience to Edwin, except that the cause of the kickback was stupidity on my part (we'll skip the details). When the plywood flipped up, I caught it right as it hit me in the stomach, but since it knocked the wind out of me, I dropped it back into the blade, and it kicked back and hit me again in the exact same spot. That time my knees buckled and I mercifully dropped to the floor before it happened a third time. After an experience like that, you get really conscious about anticipating and avoiding kickback.

[Mike Kees]

There is a 96'' Biesemeyer fence on a General cabinet saw at the Windsor plywood location in Lethbridge Ab. They use it to ..you guessed it cut plywood sheets to shorter lengths. I too would say this is not very safe. I like the 'do not cut a piece that is wider than the length of the cut' rule. Have had a kickback with a piece of plywood that was about 24'' square,drilled me in the midsection.That was 26 years ago,I have not forgotten how fast it happened or how much it hurt.Marc just listen to any of the advice guys have posted in both of your threads. Where you started with crosscut sleds is a much better option than a 96'' fence. In fact I would say every other option given to you is hands down better than this 96''fence idea. At the end of the day,it is your life and money do with it what you will.