Popular Woodworking: If We Pool Our Spare Change, ... .

[James Waldron]

Today's news: https://lostartpress.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/ch11-fw-media-inc-affidavitdeclaration-in-support-of-fir.pdf

Now you can know what's happened at Popular Woodworking and related pubs.

[Dan Hall]

It's sad. My wife worked her entire life at three daily newspapers all of which are still going but only barely. We spend so much time at these keyboards that we don't have time to fully digest monthly magazines. I still take three, all aviation related but hardly ever do more than glance through them before recycling. We'll see where it all ends up I suppose but not before I've shuffled off my mortal coil.
In the case of the F+W companies it seems that they committed corporate suicide when they jumped full bore into e-commerce without a clue what they were doing. Or so the filing would lead one to conclude.

[John LoDico]

Of F & W’s holdings, Sky & Telescope is still a quality publication. It hits that sweet spot between incomprehensible, professional-journal physics and dumbed down science. I’ll miss it if it goes under.

[John Skibo]

Is this an out of business BK or restructuring ?
I just renewed not long ago. I really like the Magazine but have seen it change lately.

[Dan Hall]

Chapter 11 is a request for restructuring. The problem is that F+W has been attempting to self restructure since 2013 according to the filing and has only dug deeper. What is the first rule of holes? When you find yourself in one stop digging. I'm not a lawyer but I get the sense from reading the filing that the court will likely not allow chapter 11. They are 110 million in debt and don't have any reasonable way to pay it. They've been selling off assets to pay the bills and have run out of things to sell. If the court orders a chapter 7 then remaining assets will be auctioned. Perhaps some will survive. Who knows. Print media all across the country is in trouble. Newsweek magazine sold a couple of years ago for $one dollar. Then folded I think. I think the PayPal/Tesla guy bought the Worshington Post but don't quote me. It's a hobby buy right? Think buggy whips.

[Jim Koepke]

Then folded I think. I think the PayPal/Tesla guy bought the Worshington Post but don't quote me.

If you meant the Washington Post, it is owned by Jeff Bezos, the Amazon guy. The Washington Post has been through a few ownership changes over the last couple of decades. It is still in business, thankfully.

As technology advances, people are getting their entertainment, news and even their social life on line. It is difficult for a magazine to compete with a thousand amateurs on Youtube and other internet forums. People like to get things for free. Many magazines are in the $5-$10 range. No one wants to pay that much for something that has as much advertising content as it does decent information.

The apple cart has been upset and we are seeing the resultant turmoil.

jtk

[ken hatch]

It's sad. My wife worked her entire life at three daily newspapers all of which are still going but only barely. We spend so much time at these keyboards that we don't have time to fully digest monthly magazines. I still take three, all aviation related but hardly ever do more than glance through them before recycling. We'll see where it all ends up I suppose but not before I've shuffled off my mortal coil.
In the case of the F+W companies it seems that they committed corporate suicide when they jumped full bore into e-commerce without a clue what they were doing. Or so the filing would lead one to conclude.

Dan,

What three? BCA? Flying? AOPA? Pro Pilot? Only one of those requires a paid subscription and like you all (when I received them) went straight to the recycle bin. Woodworking mags and for that matter almost all affinity mags are the same, not much content worth reading which is a shame. Times change and paper and ink can't keep up with pixels. Where the problem comes in is history, paper and ink can last for millenniums, digital not so much.

ken

[Tony Zaffuto]

Remember Pogo? Well we've have seen the enemy and he is us! How can a woodworking magazine survive, depending upon paid subscriptions or checkout aisle purchasing, when info equal to, or better, is generally available for free, via the web? Something more had to be offered, and PWW never quite found and then embraced what that was. Thry came close with "Woodworking" magazine and again with WIA, but the numbers must have never been quite right.

Face it, we're dinosaurs! Proof? Look at this forum we spend our time: we're all getting older and our numbers are not filling in, as quickly as some leave. It is sad to see PWW go the way of several other magazines, but we've got the be realistic, looking beyond ascribing blame to anything other than time moving forward with PWW left in time's dust. Maybe enough readers will coalesce behind FWW and Woodsmith, and help those two stay with us.

[Jason Dean]

Remember Pogo? Well we've have seen the enemy and he is us! How can a woodworking magazine survive, depending upon paid subscriptions or checkout aisle purchasing, when info equal to, or better, is generally available for free, via the web? Something more had to be offered, and PWW never quite found and then embraced what that was. Thry came close with "Woodworking" magazine and again with WIA, but the numbers must have never been quite right.

Face it, we're dinosaurs! Proof? Look at this forum we spend our time: we're all getting older and our numbers are not filling in, as quickly as some leave. It is sad to see PWW go the way of several other magazines, but we've got the be realistic, looking beyond ascribing blame to anything other than time moving forward with PWW left in time's dust. Maybe enough readers will coalesce behind FWW and Woodsmith, and help those two stay with us.

Tony, I can't speak for my entire demographic. But, I am in my early 30s and am/was an avid reader of both this forum and Popular woodworking.

I dropped my subscription after they fired Meghan Fitzpatrick. When she took over for Chris Schwarz there was a continuity of style that wasn't seamless but was positive and enjoyable (she managed to be witty without the Schwarz's acerbic bite). With her departure the entire tone of PWW changed.

The magazine had long been about half advertising but the content shifted to simplistic power tool techniques and barely disguised marketing fluff. Bob Flexner and Nancy Hiller where the two remaining regular contributors that I found enjoyable.

I've currently allocated my subscription spend to Mortise and Tenon Mag though I might have to give FWW a try.

[Frederick Skelly]

Wow. Read paragraphs 31 & 32. They got into ecommerce, admitted they didnt know what they were doing and "increased capital expenditures by 385% in 2017 alone".

I sure hope that management team doesnt move to my company after F+W. Geez.

[Dan Hall]

If you meant the Washington Post, it is owned by Jeff Bezos, the Amazon guy. The Washington Post has been through a few ownership changes over the last couple of decades. It is still in business, thankfully.

As technology advances, people are getting their entertainment, news and even their social life on line. It is difficult for a magazine to compete with a thousand amateurs on Youtube and other internet forums. People like to get things for free. Many magazines are in the $5-$10 range. No one wants to pay that much for something that has as much advertising content as it does decent information.

The apple cart has been upset and we are seeing the resultant turmoil.

jtk Thanks Jim. I knew it was one of those high tech billionaires I just can't keep them straight. By the way, I used to live in Woodland Washington not far from you. We still have many friends in the area.

[Dan Hall]

Dan,

What three? BCA? Flying? AOPA? Pro Pilot? Only one of those requires a paid subscription and like you all (when I received them) went straight to the recycle bin. Woodworking mags and for that matter almost all affinity mags are the same, not much content worth reading which is a shame. Times change and paper and ink can't keep up with pixels. Where the problem comes in is history, paper and ink can last for millenniums, digital not so much.

ken AOPA, Sport Aviation (EAA), and Kitplane. That's one heck of a fine animal you got there in your Avatar.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Tony, I can't speak for my entire demographic. But, I am in my early 30s and am/was an avid reader of both this forum and Popular woodworking.

I dropped my subscription after they fired Meghan Fitzpatrick. When she took over for Chris Schwarz there was a continuity of style that wasn't seamless but was positive and enjoyable (she managed to be witty without the Schwarz's acerbic bite). With her departure the entire tone of PWW changed.

The magazine had long been about half advertising but the content shifted to simplistic power tool techniques and barely disguised marketing fluff. Bob Flexner and Nancy Hiller where the two remaining regular contributors that I found enjoyable.

I've currently allocated my subscription spend to Mortise and Tenon Mag though I might have to give FWW a try.

I liked your comment about Megan being witty, but Swartz having an acerbic bite. I find their publishing company, Lost Arts Press, and have purchase many, many titles, with some directly from them, others from catalog stores. The books are superb, both in content and product. With that said, I find Chris to be off-putting in listening to him speak, with his acerbic bite. To each their own. I doubt if I will ever purchase tools from them, or attend their classes, but, I certainly hope Lost Arts Press is around a very long time. In my opinion, their books are really that good.

[Patrick McFate]

I agree that it's difficult for an analog magazine to compete with social media, video conglomerates, and everything else you can find online, but I still believe there is a way for even a magazine for a niche market like woodworking to survive in the 21st century. It starts with proper management, a half-decent editorial staff, and a commitment not to get $100 million into debt. Fine Woodworking keeps chugging along, though of course the quality of their product has diminished. They've held on to their reputation for the most part and have a few good people on their staff (Mike Peckovich, for example). They are staying in their own lane, and if they keep doing what they do best, they'll survive. The corporation that owns Popular Woodworking tried to go after the market share of Family Handyman and This Old House et al., and they crashed and burned. It wasn't the Internet era that did them in -- they did themselves in. Too bad it's the rank and file staff that's going to suffer...

[Marshall Harrison]

If you meant the Washington Post, it is owned by Jeff Bezos, the Amazon guy. The Washington Post has been through a few ownership changes over the last couple of decades. It is still in business, thankfully.

As technology advances, people are getting their entertainment, news and even their social life on line. It is difficult for a magazine to compete with a thousand amateurs on Youtube and other internet forums. People like to get things for free. Many magazines are in the $5-$10 range. No one wants to pay that much for something that has as much advertising content as it does decent information.

The apple cart has been upset and we are seeing the resultant turmoil.

jtk

You hit the nail on the head.

Youtube is free and the sheer amount of new content is mind boggling. Can't justify spending $6+ on a bunch of ads.

[Simon MacGowen]

. Can't justify spending $6+ on a bunch of ads.

I was flipping the pages of Fine Woodworking (Tools & Shops 2019), and saw 6 pages spent on an outfeed table. You kidding me? It was there probably because Christian B. wrote it. What next (in the Tools & Shops 2020), an infeed table...this time by Chris G.? Enough is enough (at least for me). Good luck to all woodworking magazines out there; I am saving all my money for lumber.

Simon

[JimA Thornton]

I was flipping the pages of Fine Woodworking (Tools & Shops 2019), and saw 6 pages spent on an outfeed table. You kidding me? It was there probably because Christian B. wrote it. What next (in the Tools & Shops 2020), an infeed table...this time by Chris G.? Enough is enough (at least for me). Good luck to all woodworking magazines out there; I am saving all my money for lumber.

Simon

I think a lot of folks (experienced woodworkers) are saving their money for lumber as well, Simon. I read somewhere that a magazine has to repeat itself every few years, which tells me that they're aimed at new woodworkers. In your example above, an experienced woodworker with a shop is probably not going to be particularly interested in a new outfield table or a lot of the other content of the magazines.
I know a lot of folks don't like the subscription to website content concept very much, but I really like it. I renewed my interest in woodworking this last fall, so subscribed to the FW web content for several months. Spent a lot of time watching videos and reading articles that interested me. Now I've canceled that and am subscribed to Paul Sellers Woodworking Master Class, since my renewed interest is in hand tool woodworking (after a lifetime of machine woodworking). I've built several of his projects now and have learned a ton. When summer activities start I'll probably cancel that and then pick it up again this fall.

Jim

[ken hatch]

AOPA, Sport Aviation (EAA), and Kitplane. That's one heck of a fine animal you got there in your Avatar.

Thanks Dan,

That's Sweet Maggie Dog she and Sam the Wonder Dog are my shop dogs. They come running anytime they hear the bandsaw as it sometimes means a quartered rawhide bone. I suspect your Kitplane and Sport Aviation are a lot more interesting than BCA or Pro Pilot.

ken

[mike v flaim]

That's nothing. Pop Wood has 10 pages for their outfeed table in the current issue. Next month Wood will dedicate 12 pages with a custom kitty litter box underneath.

[Simon MacGowen]

That's nothing. Pop Wood has 10 pages for their outfeed table in the current issue. Next month Wood will dedicate 12 pages with a custom kitty litter box underneath.

Hahah...Fine Woodworking has larger and thicker sheets than Pop Wood, let's not forget.

Woodworkers Journal has just announced a new time limited offer: $10 for one year print subscription PLUS access to all its digital contents (all past issues as as ALL Premium Videos). Who could beat that kind of deal?

Simon

[Marshall Harrison]

Hahah...Fine Woodworking has larger and thicker sheets than Pop Wood, let's not forget.

Woodworkers Journal has just announced a new time limited offer: $10 for one year print subscription PLUS access to all its digital contents (all past issues as as ALL Premium Videos). Who could beat that kind of deal?

Simon

Simon , do you have a link for that offer? I couldn't find it. I only saw a year for $19 + $6 shipping.

Or maybe it was extremely time limited. :D

[Norb Schmidt]

They have a buyer in mind - will run a 363 process (that's the Chapter 11 portion of the Bankruptcy Code for an Auction) that is supposed to be done by mid June (pending objections by the Creditor's Committee and other challenges). As I read through the Filing, (as a Banker - a real banker that actually lends money, not an Investment Banker that merely brokers them) this thing was set up to File last year. They tried an out of court restructuring, but the Lender's named the Credit Facility the "Pre-Petition Credit Facility" - the operative word there is "Pre-Petition" which allows them to roll some of it into a "Debtor In Possession" credit facility. This is a $100 Million Dollar revenue company - those just don't go away easily. Certainly they want to clean up their mistakes, and a BK and subsequent 363/Auction sale washes up all the legacy contracts and whatnot so the new buyer can make all new mistakes on his/her nickel. My guess is FTI already has a buyer who will be named shortly as the Stalking Horse Bidder. BTW - the real winners in these cases is the consultants and the lawyers.

Media is a challenging industry - one that is feeling the effects of new technology and delivery systems. Chris Schwarz and Meghan have their firsthand account on the changes implemented that clearly didn't work. I make my living on Interest charged to borrowers, and believe that debt or leverage cuts both ways. I personally eschew personal leverage and prefer to follow the sage advice of guys like Dave Ramsey. Mainly because I know what I have to be like professionally when I need to get repaid from a loan that isn't performing....but most people like the idea of a mortgage, a car loan, a credit card - and certainly the United States Government has used debt to build new roads, social welfare systems, and defense. I mean 22 Trillion in Debt is real money...

As a woodworking community - I appreciate the generous sharing of knowledge we have through these media opportunities. Woodworking is largely a solitary sport - we go into our shops and basements/garages and work on a project individually. Our neighbors and family honor us with their praise, but we seek the validation of our fellow woodworkers to make sure we're on the right path, creating a legacy for ourselves and our loved ones. Some of you actually make their living from this craft - and that is both a labor of love of craft and a huge contribution to society. People like Chris Schwarz started publishing companies (and starting a publishing company in the midst of the current state of media in the World is a crazy idea) that have thrived and supported a huge number of people. We support the small businesses, the Lie-Nielsens, the Hamilton Gauges, the Wilding Planemakers, the Lost Art Press's of this world because we NEED them or else what we love will be lost.

This is a changing world. The change happens a lot faster than anyone would like. I used to shop Sears - no more. I owned an Oldsmobile. I had a Motorola cell phone (before Google bought it in Bankruptcy). Jobs are lost. Families are disrupted. It's sad. But it also drives ingenuity like the businesses I mentioned above. If F&W didn't run Chris to start Lost Art Press - does any of the books he published get done? Do we get the fine hand made tools?

I hope media figures out how to make money. I hope we all enjoy these days of very low cost internet access to everything we want. I hope and pray the families dislocated feel supported and encouraged by this community to pick themselves up and find new ways and opportunities to contribute. I hope and pray we find the grace to let them - all of them.

[Jerry Olexa]

It is a changing world...But boy, I sure want that outfeed table plan to build :)

[Keith Outten]

The organizations you support survive, that's the golden rule and it applies to brick and mortar stores as well as online organizations and companies.

Some of you may not have seen my previous posts concerning SawMill Creek. The use of advertising blocking is the norm these days so it is taking its toll on our ability to remain online in our current configuration. We recently removed all free access to email and private messages as a warning about upcoming changes. To date it has had very little impact so we will be moving to a subscription based structure shortly. In about one week we will eliminate all Visitor access here. The timeline for converting to a paid subscription basis is within the next 90 days for those of you who are registered Members. FWIW Visitor access here has always been a huge part of our ability to attract advertisers. Visitors today have no value since they consume resources and provide absolutely no source of revenue.

We cannot sell advertising that you don't view. Since advertising has paid for free access here since 2005 and it has decreased to a fraction of what it used to be all free access will cease to exist. Just so you know this is a wide spread problem for Internet sites that provide services and information, its not limited to just SawMill Creek. When Photo-Bucket started charging for the services they have always provided for free it was a preview of things to come.

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon , do you have a link for that offer? I couldn't find it. I only saw a year for $19 + $6 shipping.

Or maybe it was extremely time limited. :D

Still on their website:

https://subscribe.woodworkersjournal.com/pubs/RK/WWJ/Y9033D.jsp?cds_page_id=237069&cds_mag_code=WWJ&id=1552438913723&lsid=90712001537025559&vid=1

Could it be a response to Fine Woodworking's $100 annual premium content subscription, I don't know.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

It is a changing world...But boy, I sure want that outfeed table plan to build :)

Here: https://www.finewoodworking.com/2018/10/30/w272-build-a-basic-tablesaw-outfeed-table

If you want something not so basic, Google will find you more fancy ones in print or in the video format (free, of course).

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

I hope media figures out how to make money. I

I did not click on the news link, but recall seeing something like a young chap making millions from his youtube (or some social media platform). Many youtube woodworking fellows also profit making creating content and views (I don't know the details either). Many of these are not qualified (or not willing) to write or produce content for magazines, I bet. But they make more money by working in their own shops than working freelance for any publishers. They attract viewers because somebody else (ads) pays for their production while viewers don't. It is really tough for any woodworking magazine to compete in the long term based on paid subscriptions, and that's my prediction.

Simon

[Marshall Harrison]

Still on their website:

https://subscribe.woodworkersjournal.com/pubs/RK/WWJ/Y9033D.jsp?cds_page_id=237069&cds_mag_code=WWJ&id=1552438913723&lsid=90712001537025559&vid=1

Could it be a response to Fine Woodworking's $100 annual premium content subscription, I don't know.

Simon

Thanks Simon, I subscribed. Now to find out how to log in and get access to the back issues.

[Marshall Harrison]

The organizations you support survive, that's the golden rule and it applies to brick and mortar stores as well as online organizations and companies.

Some of you may not have seen my previous posts concerning SawMill Creek. The use of advertising blocking is the norm these days so it is taking its toll on our ability to remain online in our current configuration. We recently removed all free access to email and private messages as a warning about upcoming changes. To date it has had very little impact so we will be moving to a subscription based structure shortly. In about one week we will eliminate all Visitor access here. The timeline for converting to a paid subscription basis is within the next 90 days for those of you who are registered Members. FWIW Visitor access here has always been a huge part of our ability to attract advertisers. Visitors today have no value since they consume resources and provide absolutely no source of revenue.

We cannot sell advertising that you don't view. Since advertising has paid for free access here since 2005 and it has decreased to a fraction of what it used to be all free access will cease to exist. Just so you know this is a wide spread problem for Internet sites that provide services and information, its not limited to just SawMill Creek. When Photo-Bucket started charging for the services they have always provided for free it was a preview of things to come.

I hate to see it come to that Keith. If that is what you have to do to keep SMC up and running then so be it. I'm in.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Thanks Simon, I subscribed. Now to find out how to log in and get access to the back issues.

Just beware the fine print. They send you ONE renewal notice by mail and you will be auto-renewed if you don’t opt out. I’m willing to bet that renewal will be at the $370 rate.

405559

[Simon MacGowen]

Just beware the fine print. They send you ONE renewal notice by mail and you will be auto-renewed if you don’t opt out. I’m willing to bet that renewal will be at the $370 rate.


$370, or more, or less, depending on what has happened between now and one year later.

I know from experience with other service providers that they have loyalty departments to keep people from leaving. When you call to cancel (cable say), they cut your rates to keep you on board. Of course, it is often because they have reduced the rates for new sign-ups long before you called!!!

I hate auto-renewals. Fine Woodworking allows you to renew online, but if you want to cancel mid-way, you have to call, and can't do that online (even via your logged in account). A lot of businesses (big and small), including telecomm, do that these days.

My digital diary reminds me of everything from appointments to (desired) renewals to cancellations.

Simon

[Marshall Harrison]

Just beware the fine print. They send you ONE renewal notice by mail and you will be auto-renewed if you don’t opt out. I’m willing to bet that renewal will be at the $370 rate.

405559

Thanks for the warning Malcom. I set a calendar reminder to cancel for March 1, 2020. But that is all dependent on finding where to cancel on their website. The website is'n very user friendly and you have to hunt for even the simplest things.

[Simon MacGowen]

The website is'n very user friendly and you have to hunt for even the simplest things.
Sounds like the Pop Wood's. I suspect when you add things to an old platform which wasn't designed for digital contents, you are patching up things with inefficiency. I would contact their customer service for direct links to or steps on the contents you want to retrieve.

Simon

[Dan Hall]

Maggie looks like she's got some Dobergirl in her. I've been owned by Doberman Pincers most of my life. Great dogs, especially the females. Anyway, of the three magazines I think Kitplane is the best these days. Sport Aviation has gone completely Brietling all the way. Advertising over content. That one and AOPA I take so that they continue their interface with congress. As it turns out though I'm in the midst of selling off the whole fleet at the moment. Hangar fees, insurance and fuel costs have overwhelmed my retirement budget. I like to do other stuff as well. My Starduster SA-100 has left the building and there are two others to go.

[Dean Arthur]

Mr. Outten,



Visitors today have no value since they consume resources and provide absolutely no source of revenue.


Sure, perhaps no revenue - but for a forum, the primary (perhaps only?) source of value. I am here, and I imagine most are here, due to the high caliber of expertise and knowledge of the visitors on this forum - the ones who so generously answer questions and provide their insight.


I worry you're about to cut off your nose to spite your face. You have a beautiful resource and community here, and you're about to damage it - perhaps irrevocably. I say that now because in the future you might decry that these "dang visitors" were blocking my ads, and that's why the site withered.


That will not be the reason. It will be because you mistook revenue for value, and hadn't discovered the appropriate way to get one from the other - hurting both in the process.

The internet is an interesting phenomenon because in some ways it follows the constructs we're used to, and in others not so much. You mentioned "the organizations you support survive" which is absolutley true. But a forum (in the larger sense) lives and dies on the quality of content and activity of the community - which, again, is obviously currently the case.

In the future, how might someone come to the conclusion that they might want to become a member of this community if they're not allowed to visit?


If the costs of running the forum are outpacing your ability to keep up perhaps the community can make some recommendations for cost savings? For alternative software, hosting providers, etc?

[JimA Thornton]

I subscribed to FW's On-line content at the monthly rate last fall. I cancelled that (online) a couple of weeks ago. Got a prompt e-mail from them verifying that I was cancelled. No problem at all. I'll probably renew again this fall for the winter months.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Mr. Arthur:

I don’t know the right thing to do to preserve the forum, but I wanted to mention that I don’t think anyone who posts here is a “visitor” as Keith is using that term.

If you look at the bottom of the main page it lists who is online. As I type this it shows 24 “members” and 114 “guests.” The members consist of “members” (who are registered but do not pay the $6 per year to be a “contributor”) and “contributors” (who pay the $6 per year).

The unregistered guests who are just browsing without any account are the folks I think Keith is talking about as “visitors.” They are not producing revenue (because of ad-blocking), and they are also not contributing by answering questions, etc.

[JimA Thornton]

Many forums work with a donation system. I wonder if that might work here? Solves the problem of access for newcomers and hopefully enough revenue to make it worthwhile for the owner to keep it running.

[Dan Hall]

I do not use ad blocking anywhere, and I watch the ads one time at least. I never the less will continue to browse until I make a commitment to the hobby (not a pro) and the site. If one can't try before one buys the site will fail. Without a doubt. If more revenue is needed ownership can track visitors and give them a generous free period in which to decide.

I currently contribute $5 A MONTH to several forums. Six bucks is a couple of cups of coffee or one fancy beer. Not much.

I do not like PayPal because of it's nasty fee structure. I'll send a one time $6 but will not make it monthly until I decide. Oh, with contributor status I would like to keep banner ads on. Is that possible.

[Dan Hall]

I got sucked into that vortex using PayPal as a payment source. The company that I had initially signed up with failed to disclose that it was an auto renew membership at $35/month. I was trying to locate a relative. I tried to persuade PayPal to credit me but they refused. I don't care much for those people any more. With a bank credit card one simply tells the bank to shut off payment and it's a done deal.

Paypal loves the auto renew business.

[ken hatch]

Maggie looks like she's got some Dobergirl in her. I've been owned by Doberman Pincers most of my life. Great dogs, especially the females. Anyway, of the three magazines I think Kitplane is the best these days. Sport Aviation has gone completely Brietling all the way. Advertising over content. That one and AOPA I take so that they continue their interface with congress. As it turns out though I'm in the midst of selling off the whole fleet at the moment. Hangar fees, insurance and fuel costs have overwhelmed my retirement budget. I like to do other stuff as well. My Starduster SA-100 has left the building and there are two others to go.

Dan,

Maggie is a Chocolate Lab. Both she and Sam are rescue dogs.

I've been out of the boat business for several years and we sold our Piper Pacer a couple of years ago. The only high draw items left are the shop and the motorhome. I expect a year or two after I finally retire the motorhome will go and only the shop will stay. It's good to simplify.

I spent too many years with an airplane strapped to my butt to want to read about 'em, even if the mags were well written and they are not. It's pretty much the same with woodworking mags.

ken

[Marshall Harrison]

Many forums work with a donation system. I wonder if that might work here? Solves the problem of access for newcomers and hopefully enough revenue to make it worthwhile for the owner to keep it running.

That is basically what we have now. Some of us are contributors and thus using the donation system and get extra privileges. Some are just members without some of the privileges contributors get. And then there are guests that can only read the posts without contributing.

[Rob Damon]

In about one week we will eliminate all Visitor access here.

I fully understand your situation and sadly I agree.

Just curious. I am now a contributor, but 99% of the time I do not log in unless I am planning on posting something or viewing a jpg and just visit as a non-logged on "visitor." It is quicker and easier to do on a smartphone by not logging in.

Since the website software has no way of knowing if someone that is not logged in is a visitor/non-contributor or a visitor/contributor, I guess I won't be visiting anymore/as often (which I do now visit multiple times a day) even though I am a contributor....it is just too difficult to punch in the user name and password on the small I-phone.

This makes me curious if the site statics are accurate.
If you have 10000 active hits today. 5000 are contributors, 5000 are not contributors. Only 20 of the contributors actually take the time to log into the site. The stats would show that 20 contributors are supporting 9980 non-contributing visitors when in fact you really have 5000 contributors, 20 log in and 4980 do not long it, like me.

Plus how many people that don't contribute financially but do contribute intellectual property to the site that helps the site be what it is today. Without intellectual contributions they is nothing to visit for. Hopefully 99% of the intellectual contribution here comes from the financial supporting members and not from the non financially support members.

[J. Greg Jones]

....it is just too difficult to punch in the user name and password on the small I-phone.
Just check the box to 'Remember Me' when you login and in the future the login will happen automatically. Also, if presented with the option to save the login info in your iCloud Keychain, say yes. It's not necessary to remember secure passwords/enter them manually these days.

[Derek Cohen]

I got sucked into that vortex using PayPal as a payment source. The company that I had initially signed up with failed to disclose that it was an auto renew membership at $35/month. I was trying to locate a relative. I tried to persuade PayPal to credit me but they refused. I don't care much for those people any more. With a bank credit card one simply tells the bank to shut off payment and it's a done deal.

Paypal loves the auto renew business.

Dan, you can cancell automatic payments in PayPal, itself.

You need to check what automatic payments are still active or inactive. Do this periodically.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Noah Magnuson]

I was a contributor until I witnessed the whole Stan C. exchange. Now I just stop in occasionally, but quit contributing.

[Mike Kreinhop]

....it is just too difficult to punch in the user name and password on the small I-phone.

I visit almost daily using my iPhone, and can't remember the last time I had to enter my username and password. I am always logged into my SMC account on my iPhone.

[Simon MacGowen]

I visit almost daily using my iPhone, and can't remember the last time I had to enter my username and password. I am always logged into my SMC account on my iPhone.

The reason that I don't sign in most of the time unless I have to make a post whether using the phone or computer is that I don't get to see some of the posts if I am logged in, and I would have to look "deeper" to locate them. I don't have this kind of problem when I am not logged in, or with other forums. That might be a limitation of this forum software. Also, other forums allow me to see the posted images without signing in.

But even when I am browsing other forums, I still prefer not to sign in unless I want to post something.

Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

Mr. Outten,
Sure, perhaps no revenue - but for a forum, the primary (perhaps only?) source of value. I am here, and I imagine most are here, due to the high caliber of expertise and knowledge of the visitors on this forum - the ones who so generously answer questions and provide their insight.

I worry you're about to cut off your nose to spite your face. You have a beautiful resource and community here, and you're about to damage it - perhaps irrevocably.

In the future, how might someone come to the conclusion that they might want to become a member of this community if they're not allowed to visit?

If the costs of running the forum are outpacing your ability to keep up perhaps the community can make some recommendations for cost savings? For alternative software, hosting providers, etc?

We've been discussing this matter for about 2 years, IIRC. I'd be willing to bet Keith has looked into most every option we'd think of. The clock has apparently run out. Not enough people chose to become Contributors when it was raised. (Their reasons are none of my business.) If Keith doesnt take action soon, this forum closes down. I agree we are going to lose enormously by going subscription only. Some of our most knowlegable posters do not contribute monetarily. We will lose all that. But we lose even more if SMC shuts down.

[Derek Cohen]

I will repeat the advice I left on another thread: if revenue from adverts is needed, and ad blockers on the laptops/phones/tablets of viewers are preventing this, then de-activate ad blockers. Many websites have software capable of determining whether the viewer is doing so, and alerts them to switch it off. They cannot view anything with it on (blocked). Once switched off, they can view everything. Why does SMC not do this?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

I will repeat the advice I left on another thread: if revenue from adverts is needed, and ad blockers on the laptops/phones/tablets of viewers are preventing this, then de-activate ad blockers. Many websites have software capable of determining whether the viewer is doing so, and alerts them to switch it off. They cannot view anything with it on (blocked). Once switched off, they can view everything. Why does SMC not do this?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Good idea Derek, if v-bulletin supports it. If not, Keith said he wasnt able to have custom software written.

[Dean Arthur]

Derek,


If people are using ad blockers it means they don't want to view ads.


It's amazing how indoctrinated we've all become that we think there is some sort of moral obligation to endure advertisement. There is not. Advertisement is/was lucrative, no doubt, but if you've browsed the web anytime in the last decade - massively intrusive (I'm speaking generally, not in the context of SMC).


We've already been down this road with email. You used to get mountains of spam every day for a few years, then people got tired of it and the world moved on (there's still spam of course, but 99% of people don't see much of it anymore, thank heavens).


What is effective are trustworthy experts - particularly for niche products like woodworking tools. Derek, you have no idea how many Veritas planes you have sold because people see you as unbiased and, more important, knowledgeable. That is "advertisement" I have a lot of patience for (and actively seek out).


You advocate for SMC to compel users to turn on ads, etc., and though this has proven to be highly ineffective, I can see the allure of the idea for content creators. For a forum, the members (previously visitors) are the content creators. They are also the audience. I've noticed people here put a lot of care into their posts and projects because they know the audience will appreciate it.


The "cost" of visitors is negligible. Bandwidth, disk space, processing power - it's nothing for a site this size. The front page states the most users ever online at once was 6,025 (currently it's about 1000). That may sound like a lot but it is negligible.


I get the counter argument, and really, this is not an argument. You have a bunch of people who enjoy this place and would hate to see it become less than it is. And you have Mr. Outten who has expectations for what he is receiving versus the time, effort and money he is willing to expend. To me a forum isn't a great money making proposition, particularly a small one like this. But it is invaluable.


It's just obvious that not allowing visitors is going to eliminate the possibility for new membership and therefore new blood and ideas, and this small website will immediately shrink from a 1000 visitors to a couple of hundred, and then less and less. And the cost savings for all of this will be close enough to zero.


Mr. Outten has mentioned that he needs help to "support our costs including new hardware, software and bandwidth."


For what it's worth, here is my support:


"new hardware" and "bandwidth"


This is an easy one. Do not pay for new hardware, or hardware at all for that matter. If you're concerned with bandwidth for a site this size something is either misconfigured or you are paying too much.


Instead use what's called a virtual private server. The two best ones at the moment for a site this size are Linode and Digital Ocean. Please look at them.


$20 a month on either provider will be more than enough. For this you will get 4 Terabytes of data transfer, 80 GB of SSD space, static ip, 99.99% uptime (this is measured, not just marketing hyperbole), and you can downgrade or upgrade space, bandwidth, whatever - anytime you want. These resources are allocated to you, you do not share them as you might with a shared reseller hosts. You can rely on them and they will serve you much better than keeping a physical server underneath your desk, in the closet, etc.


You don't have to support photo uploads - just recommend users to use their preferred storage service and link them. I use Backblaze B2, but that would be too technical for most users here. Imgur seems to be the standard right now.


"software"


You mentioned a preference for transitioning over to xenforo. That's probably a great choice (go where the developers go, not the management). Their yearly subscription is $160 plus I assume a one time fee of $150 to buy the vBulletin Big Board importer program so you can transfer over the site in its current configuration.


Or just keep using vBulletin, honestly. Seems to work fine - and in that case vBulletin is $250 per year - plus whatever add ons you want. That's reasonable enough.


And then there's the domain name for less than $10 at your registrar spirit domains, and use lets encrypt for you ssl certificate (which is free).


So nearly ever server in the world runs off a version of Linux, which is free. Plus the PHP language for the forum software, which is free, plus whatever database you are using (PostgreSQL, mongoDB, etc - they're all free). This software is rock solid. It's free of course but not free to setup, you need the expertise.


The expertise to implement these is of course not free. You seem to have a developer you're comfortable working with. Run this by him. If he does not agree you're welcome to PM me and I will be happy to give you my honest opinion.

[Dan Carroll]

Restucting. This is a Chapter 11, and the are looking for a buyer. It is likely only some of the publications will find a market and the likely buyer will be an online retailer that can make it work, not a publisher.

[Marshall Harrison]

I'm willing to step mup to the plate. I don't see any ads but I'm not opposed to seeing them. Just please don't do like some sites and have an ad between each post. That is just too much and very aggravating.