Antique Hide glue to be repaired with epoxy

[Ted Howard]

Good afternoon folks,

I am an upholsterer. I am working on a fully upholstered antique sofa - with no show wood. I have removed all fabric, padding and springs. It is down to the cleaned bare wooden frame. I am now ready to disassemble the frame. Many of the doweled joints are broken or loose. All joinery was made with hide glue. I want to use epoxy to do all repairs along with all new dowels.

I have a few questions:

What are the best techniques for removing the old hide glue (in some cases, there have been other glues used over the original hide glue) from the dowel holes?

The best way to remove dowels that are still firm on one end?

If the holes are not cleaned perfectly, will the epoxy adhere to the old hide glue?

The dowels may not fit tightly in some of the holes. This is due to the furniture being used for years with loose joints. How would you go about repairing these? Plug and re-drill? wrap the dowel pins with something? ????

Any information, help or comments are greatly appreciated.

ted

[Mike Henderson]

I'll give you my experience. See below:


Good afternoon folks,

I am an upholsterer. I am working on a fully upholstered antique sofa - with no show wood. I have removed all fabric, padding and springs. It is down to the cleaned bare wooden frame. I am now ready to disassemble the frame. Many of the doweled joints are broken or loose. All joinery was made with hide glue. I want to use epoxy to do all repairs along with all new dowels.

I have a few questions:

What are the best techniques for removing the old hide glue (in some cases, there have been other glues used over the original hide glue) from the dowel holes?
I usually chisel it out. But note that this usually makes the hole bigger so you have to use a bigger dowel.

The best way to remove dowels that are still firm on one end?
I saw them off and then drill out the hole. Again, you usually wind up with a bit larger hole so use a bigger dowel. You can theoretically soften the old hide glue with heat and then remove the dowel. Give it a try but my experience is that it's tough to get enough heat into the wood to soften of hide glue. I put in larger dowels so cutting off and drilling works well for me and exposes fresh wood.

If the holes are not cleaned perfectly, will the epoxy adhere to the old hide glue?
Yes, but you need to make sure that the old hide glue is well adhered to the wood. I like to remove as much of the old glue as possible.

The dowels may not fit tightly in some of the holes. This is due to the furniture being used for years with loose joints. How would you go about repairing these? Plug and re-drill? wrap the dowel pins with something? ????
Drill out for the next larger dowel size. My experience is that plugging and then trying to use the smaller dowels doesn't work well.

Any information, help or comments are greatly appreciated.

ted

[Ted Howard]

Thank you, Mike. I too have used the same techniques. I just wanted to compare notes. Appreciate your time.

[Dan Hall]

Hey Mike, I'm really new to all this but what's wrong with using one of those little steam pots to clean out the holes then using Titebond I. Is there no payoff staying with the hide glue as original?

[Derek Cohen]

Good afternoon folks,

I am an upholsterer. I am working on a fully upholstered antique sofa - with no show wood. I have removed all fabric, padding and springs. It is down to the cleaned bare wooden frame. I am now ready to disassemble the frame. Many of the doweled joints are broken or loose. All joinery was made with hide glue. I want to use epoxy to do all repairs along with all new dowels.

I have a few questions:

What are the best techniques for removing the old hide glue (in some cases, there have been other glues used over the original hide glue) from the dowel holes?

The best way to remove dowels that are still firm on one end?

If the holes are not cleaned perfectly, will the epoxy adhere to the old hide glue?

The dowels may not fit tightly in some of the holes. This is due to the furniture being used for years with loose joints. How would you go about repairing these? Plug and re-drill? wrap the dowel pins with something? ????

Any information, help or comments are greatly appreciated.

ted

Ted, I have some very good news for you! :)

You do not need to remove any of the old hide glue!

The wonder of hide glue - unlike any other glue - is that new hide glue revigorates old hide glue. It bonds without any problem at all.

You can use a little heat (hot air) to soften it, to make it easier to remove chips/blocks that lie in the way of the joint, but otherwise just paint on the new hide glue and away you go!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mike holden]

I do hope you have discussed using epoxy on this project with your client.
If you had used epoxy on MY wood furniture, you would be facing a lawsuit for destruction of property!
There is a reason to use hide glue on furniture. It is repairable. Epoxy is not.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike Holden brings up a good point. The repair work I do is on furniture with no resale value - the people just want it fixed. On a chair, the dowel holes are usually worn oversized because they continued to use the chair even after it got loose so I have to go to larger dowels - or loose tenons. I use epoxy most of the time because it's a good, strong glue.

Of course, if the furniture needs repair later, it will be because the joint came loose again and epoxy or hide glue doesn't matter - the joint is loose. If one side of a joint comes loose that hole is oversized and the other side will have to be drilled out for the larger dowel.

But if the furniture really is an authentic "antique" with value, pass the work to people who specialize in that kind of work.

Mike

[For most joints that fail because of stress, it's the wood that fails, not the glue. And when the wood fails, the hole is enlarged so you have to go to a larger dowel. Most of the time, you can't just re-glue a failed joint and expect it to last because the joint is no longer "tight" (you don't have a good wood-to-wood bond).]

[Mike Cutler]

Ted

Here's an "oldie, but a goodie", thread on the subject.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?21822-Are-Your-Glue-Joints-Repairable

[Jacob Reverb]

I do hope you have discussed using epoxy on this project with your client.
If you had used epoxy on MY wood furniture, you would be facing a lawsuit for destruction of property!
There is a reason to use hide glue on furniture. It is repairable. Epoxy is not.

Sure it is. And you take it apart the same way, with heat.

Lawsuit. :p Golly!

[Pete Staehling]

I am not an expert on antique restoration or anything so take this for what it is worth...

I agree that Mike has a very good point that needs to be considered. If this is a valuable antique piece, restoring/repairing it properly means using hide glue and using epoxy would be a very bad thing. Even if you don't think that it is, there is a good chance that the owner might. Also there is a lot of variability in what someone might call a valuable antique piece.

Also consider the fact that someone may convince the customer that their valuable antique never should have been ruined with epoxy after the job is done. Maybe even quite some time later and maybe even if they didn't think it was ll that valuable at the time you did the work. Sounds crazy, but I have heard of it happening. My point is that you should be careful that you have a good understanding with the customer if you are going to do this.