Hammer k4 vs Felder k500s vs k700s [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

View Full Version : Hammer k4 vs Felder k500s vs k700s

Mark e Kessler

03-08-2019, 8:49 AM

Hello, looking for opinions on the above machine. Anyone out there use these. This would be for ex professional with slider experience looking to do a part time side business. Mostly all furniture some ply work but no plans to hite or quit my day job.

Here is what I know
The k4 and k500s share the same slide, outrigger (i think) and fence,the slide extrusion is heaver than the hammer and looks close to the xroll but with ball bearings, they also have the same saw aggregate as the k700s, i also think the frames are the same, slightly lighter build than the k700.
The k4 has a separate scoring motor.
K4 is 10’ which will fit but way tight, i would prefer 8’ the k700s will probobly be slightly out of budget but if I went with the shorter slide could make it work.

Thanks Mark

Mike Kees

03-08-2019, 1:38 PM

Mark I can not comment on all these saws because I only have experience with a K700s. I bought a barely used one this summer. I think the internals are heavier than the k500,but I may be wrong. My saw has a 10' slide and the x-roll bearing in the slide. It also has a 7.5h.p. main motor and 3/4 or one horse scoring motor. I bought this saw because I got an awesome deal in a package with a Felder edgebander. I was looking at Minimax when I found this. The saw is amazing,I smile every time I use it. My previous experience with sliders was a Minimax Sc2 with a 5' stroke. That was a great saw as well. For me personally I would either go short stroke or 10',8'seems like it would not be long enough for sheet goods or straight line ripping 10' stock. The short stroke worked well on sheet goods ,you just learn to think differently. Crosscut first then break down. What type of work are you anticipating doing the most ?

Rod Sheridan

03-08-2019, 2:07 PM

Hi Mark, the Felder saws have the X-roll table, you're correct that the K4 has a heavier ball bearing table than the other Hammer machines. The K4 does have the Felder saw aggregate.

Honestly if I was looking at the K4 versus the K700, I would go for the K700 to get the X-roll table with the 8 foot table.

I always caution customers that they have to live with the footprint of the 10 foot slider, if you have tons of room you're OK, if not the 8 foot may be more suitable.......Rod.

Mark e Kessler

03-08-2019, 9:01 PM

The K700s internals are heaver than the K500 but the same in the K500s. With the 98" table and a 12" blade you can cut ~103" not ideal but doable, I can fit a 10' but would be too tight. Would love the K700S but affording the 98" may not even be possible which is why I might compromise with the K500s which gives me the xroll, k700 internals, slightly lighter build and lighter fence than the k700 and I might be able to swing the 100" which would be the sweet spot.
I am trying to stick with mostly small to med sized furniture as that is what i was originally trained in, but I want to be able to rip a min of 8' to handle the min amount of sheet goods that will cross my path and so I can rip 8'timber on the outrigger.

mk

Mark I can not comment on all these saws because I only have experience with a K700s. I bought a barely used one this summer. I think the internals are heavier than the k500,but I may be wrong. My saw has a 10' slide and the x-roll bearing in the slide. It also has a 7.5h.p. main motor and 3/4 or one horse scoring motor. I bought this saw because I got an awesome deal in a package with a Felder edgebander. I was looking at Minimax when I found this. The saw is amazing,I smile every time I use it. My previous experience with sliders was a Minimax Sc2 with a 5' stroke. That was a great saw as well. For me personally I would either go short stroke or 10',8'seems like it would not be long enough for sheet goods or straight line ripping 10' stock. The short stroke worked well on sheet goods ,you just learn to think differently. Crosscut first then break down. What type of work are you anticipating doing the most ?

Mark e Kessler

03-08-2019, 9:13 PM

Well, here is what it looks like with the 10' K4 in the ideal location for me. would have to limit the forward stroke, but in this layout I wouldn't be able to change the blade i the load position. I have been told by felder that I can cut the table, would be nice to have the 10'....

but cuttingthe table? I think the K500s might be the ticket as it has the K700 internals, xroll and 98" or 110" slider I think the price will be close to the k4. however would do the k700s if funds allow

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and here it is full stroke, albeit wood storage rack missing

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David Kumm

03-08-2019, 9:46 PM

Used K700 or equivalent come up periodically. The longer the slider the more important the build of the base. Dave

Mike Kees

03-09-2019, 12:13 PM

Mark when I bought my saw I drove to Winnepeg Manitoba from Grassy Lake Alberta (1300 km one way). There are people who think that is nuts but I saved $8500 over the same combination used locally and about 25000 off new. My saw is 8 years old and built one set of cabinets and two bars before I owned it,the edgebander only did the one kitchen it is 4 years old. If you are looking used expand your radius ,road trips are fun.

Tom Bain

03-10-2019, 9:11 AM

Jim Becker

03-10-2019, 10:09 AM

Mark — If you really want to be able to rip 8’ sheet goods then you might want to consider a 9’ (110”) slider length if you have the room for it. The 8’ length doesn’t afford much (if any) room for any kind of hold-down clamps and such with a full-sized sheet on there.
This is sound advice. I have an 8'6" wagon and it's tight properly clamping down a 96.5"-97" long piece of sheet goods for a "rip" cut. Very doable, but right to the limit. Less of a factor for the solid stock I normally work with because I rarely have 8' long components in a project.

Mark e Kessler

03-10-2019, 7:50 PM

This is sound advice. I have an 8'6" wagon and it's tight properly clamping down a 96.5"-97" long piece of sheet goods for a "rip" cut. Very doable, but right to the limit. Less of a factor for the solid stock I normally work with because I rarely have 8' long components in a project.

Good point, I did think about that but I never found the need in the past to use clamping on the 8' as I never had issues. However this time around I will want to be able to do that as I want to use the slider to rip narrower pieces on the 8' stroke. Looks like I will have to get quotes on the 110".

mk

Mark e Kessler

03-10-2019, 7:56 PM

Mark — If you really want to be able to rip 8’ sheet goods then you might want to consider a 9’ (110”) slider length if you have the room for it. The 8’ length doesn’t afford much (if any) room for any kind of hold-down clamps and such with a full-sized sheet on there.

Thanks for reminding me of this, I have a feeling that I will be priced out of the K700s on the 110", I have pretty much decided that I will want the xroll so I may have to got to the K500s for the 110", xroll and 700 internals or a shorter stroke k700s.

Jim Becker

03-10-2019, 7:57 PM

There have been a few times that I wished I had another 6" of length on the wagon just to make things a little easier loading/unloading and clamping when working with nominal 8" material. That 110" option is a nice one to have for sure.

Mark e Kessler

03-10-2019, 8:13 PM

I don't plan on doing a lot of sheet goods the little that I would do I could do a work around as you suggest with little pain. I wanted to be able to rip lumber at 8' without removing the fence and also to be able to do tapering on say a bed post (the 80" would work for that maybe even the 60") I also want an outrigger with at least 96" of adj stop. So 80" would work but... the few times I would need the 96" I know I will be cursing myself so that's what lead me to the 96" but...now I think it will need to be 110" for clamping ability. Really the 60"-80" would work for small to med sized furniture as I can just cut the lumber down to work in that envelope, I suspect 20% of the time I would have preferred the 8-10' stroke. Mark

Mark e Kessler

03-10-2019, 8:27 PM

The other question I have is do I even need scoring If I use the right blade I can pretty much eliminate tear out, or am I fooling myself... no chance of using melamine or laminates...

mk

Tom Bain

03-10-2019, 10:19 PM

The other question I have is do I even need scoring If I use the right blade I can pretty much eliminate tear out, or am I fooling myself... no chance of using melamine or laminates...

mk

Just one man’s view, but if you are going to work with sheet goods even some of the time, the scoring blade is well worth the money. Do you really want to switch blades every time you switch between solid lumber and plywood? It’s one of the big advantages of going to a slider in my view. I remember when I had a conventional table saw I used to painter’s tape the cut line every time I crosscut plywood ... what a PITA.

Jim Becker

03-11-2019, 9:15 AM

Wakahisa Shinta

03-11-2019, 4:34 PM

FWIW...I had a contractor cabinet saw. I sold that and bought a Hammer K3 with 79-in slider. A KF700SP recently arrived with a 3200mm slider. Both the Hammer/Felder has scoring; the latter has a dedicated motor. The scoring is very nice for cutting plywood, etc. The K3 was good with sheet goods as long as I use my track saw first. The KF700SP relegates the track saw to small tasks I find annoying to take to the slider. Going back, I would forgo the K3 and go straight for the KF700SP with the longest sliding table. Truing one edge of a full sheet of plywood or 8-ft lumber in one stroke is effortless. Haven't tried 10-ft lumber.

The sliding action of the K3 is no where near the X-roll table. Not even close!

With pneumatic clamps (or the F&F jig) and parallel fences, ripping solid wood is a lot safer than using a cabinet saw, though a bit more involved setting up. I am no where near the blade and stand to the side of the saw. Hands and fingers are a few feet away from the center of action. This makes the wife happy.

Mark e Kessler

03-12-2019, 8:01 AM

Just one man’s view, but if you are going to work with sheet goods even some of the time, the scoring blade is well worth the money. Do you really want to switch blades every time you switch between solid lumber and plywood? It’s one of the big advantages of going to a slider in my view. I remember when I had a conventional table saw I used to painter’s tape the cut line every time I crosscut plywood ... what a PITA.

Good point, when i had a slider it was dedicated to sheet goods and never saw solids.

Mkessler10@gmail.com

Mark e Kessler

03-12-2019, 8:10 AM

Mark, I've even used my scoring blade with solid stock on occasion to insure that the bottom was clean. Sliders don't typically have "zero clearance" for the blade, either, so that has to be factored in. Having scoring capability means you can use it if you choose to. Not having it means it's an option that just isn't on the table...err...under the table, as the case may be. :)

Right, forgot about the no zero clearance. My previous experience with panel saws was sheet goods only including 2-3 months straight build of 8- 30’ 3’ diameter column wraps in sapele with stainless lami reveals between each 26”ish section... fun for the first week then pure hell...

Mark

Mark e Kessler

03-12-2019, 8:17 AM

Jim Becker

03-12-2019, 9:01 AM

Ok here is my next question.

I am interested in using a parallel guide wich can only be used on the xroll i am told because the other table extrusions do not have the strength.

Can the shorter crostcut fence with stop be used the same way? The only issue i see here is that how do you make sure the fence is parallel with the other at different distances from the front fence? If its not parallel the stop measurement would be off.

Mark
I don't get the idea that you can't use parallel guides with alternative arrangements...pretty much all of us who use sliders with solid stock use parallel guides and Fritz/Franz jigs for precision ripping on the wagon. I don't understand why the type of "bearing" would matter. Unless what you are describing is something Felder specific that I wouldn't know about...

Using the stops on the outrigger fence in combination with the shorter miter fence (which I have on my S315WS from SCM/Minimax and have used occasionally that way) certainly demands that you have the two fences setup accurately, but that's something you want anyway. That said, this technique is a little cumbersome as compared to dedicated parallel guides or a Fritz/Franz jig because of the additional effort required to move the miter fence along the wagon to adjust for stock length.

Rod Sheridan

03-12-2019, 9:31 AM

Mark e Kessler

03-12-2019, 9:43 AM

I don't get the idea that you can't use parallel guides with alternative arrangements...pretty much all of us who use sliders with solid stock use parallel guides and Fritz/Franz jigs for precision ripping on the wagon. I don't understand why the type of "bearing" would matter. Unless what you are describing is something Felder specific that I wouldn't know about...

Using the stops on the outrigger fence in combination with the shorter miter fence (which I have on my S315WS from SCM/Minimax and have used occasionally that way) certainly demands that you have the two fences setup accurately, but that's something you want anyway. That said, this technique is a little cumbersome as compared to dedicated parallel guides or a Fritz/Franz jig because of the additional effort required to move the miter fence along the wagon to adjust for stock length.

Not sure where you got the idea that I thought that Parallel guides could not be used in different arrangements... and I guess you mean by "pretty much all" you are referring to hobbyists?

I will clarify that I was speaking of the Hammer and K4 (anything without Felder xroll slide) Felder told me that you should not use a long guide like the on that they sell attached to the side of the table extrusion, the slide is not designed for the cantilevered load. Which was the reason for asking about using the shorter cross cut fence which I know would work but curious on someone with experience using it this way.

Honestly I have never used or found the need in the past for all these do-dads that everyone is using and never saw them in commercial shops that I have worked/been in, however now that I have a job that pays me money I am interested said gadgets as my skill has declined...

mk

Wakahisa Shinta

03-12-2019, 11:16 AM

The Felder OEM parallel guide is heavy and does not fit a K3 sliding table. I made parallel guides for my K3. Ugly and took a couple hours to make out of plywood scraps, but work fine. I made the mounting T-nut for the slot in the sliding table out of oak and threaded the holes. I made about 8 feet of the T-nut stock and have only used about 2 feet of it. When not used as parallel guide, the extension serves as support for sheet goods, table to place tape measure, pencil, square, etc.

Jim Becker

03-12-2019, 7:48 PM

I guess I misunderstood...but it's been clarified that the "Felder" parallel guide setup is heavy and not recommended, rather than "parallel guide" in general. Sorry about that...

Mark e Kessler

04-09-2019, 9:50 PM

Quick update, so I decided on the k700s 110", 49" with power rise/fall of blade, on/off switch on end of slide, overhead saw guard, indicator for tilt. Deposit has been placed.

Mark

Rod Sheridan

04-10-2019, 8:10 AM

Nice machine Mark, have fun...............Rod.

P.S. Does it really have an off switch on the slider or 2 start pushbuttons?

Mark e Kessler

04-10-2019, 8:27 AM

Rod, it is in fact an on switch and an off switch. It is no longer the remote, they have engineered some sort of sliding electrical contact...

mark

Nice machine Mark, have fun...............Rod.

P.S. Does it really have an off switch on the slider or 2 start pushbuttons?

Jim Becker

04-10-2019, 11:04 AM

Congrats, Mark! I'm sure you'll enjoy that new machine for a good long time!

Rod Sheridan

04-10-2019, 11:54 AM

Rod, it is in fact an on switch and an off switch. It is no longer the remote, they have engineered some sort of sliding electrical contact...

mark

Oh, that make sense since the stop function cannot be a wireless remote.

That will be very handy.........Rod.

Mark e Kessler

04-11-2019, 8:56 AM

I actually struggled with the on/off upgrade as the cost is high and I don’t plan on doing a lot of panels, i was actually considering the shorter stroke 80” non “s” series but it was more $$ than the 96” “s” and it was not that much more to go to the 110” . Their pricing is complicated, discounts depend on the build and what is being built so when you change one thing it can totally swing the price in a weird direction. For example I had more discount on the power rise fall then it cost, if i took it out it raised the price. I think it will be nice to have all the controls on the front, definitely not necessary but will come in handy when setting up a miter, things like that.

My quoting was also not the norm as Felder was making good on the issues I had with the AD951, they definitely lived up to their promise on making it right.

Oh, that make sense since the stop function cannot be a wireless remote.

That will be very handy.........Rod.