Questions on Bailey #7 restoration

[mark mcfarlane]

I'm about 5 hours into restoring a Bailey #7 plane (three patent version). This plane looked like it sat out in the rain for at least a few of its many years. It took a lot of effort to disassemble it, broke a really nice screw driver, broke out the vice grips to remove some screws,...

I am trying to get the plane into usable condition, I don't care about resale value, original parts,...

My 2 questions: Are the following defects going to make this plane unusable?

1) Broken lever cap
2) rounding on edge of chip breaker

I hate to keep working on this if I am wasting my time. There was a lever cap on sale on eBay last week, but it went for almost as much money as I spent on the rusty old plane. Maybe I should just find one in better condition, it seems like I can get a usable one for $120 ish.

I have no experience with hand planes, I thought I'd start learning by restoring and tuning up with this one.

405067

[Joe Bailey]

Neither of the defects is desirable, yet neither would make the plane unusable.
Of the two, the uneven clamping of the lever cap (judging from the photos) is the bigger of the two issues.

What shape are the frog, iron and handles in?

I'm guessing you could score both parts on e*ay for about $40.00 -- $45.00

examples: #123672899668 and 123667979527

[Mike Cornwall]

I think it helped me a lot to start with planes that were pretty useable and learn from there.

I also think most people’s first plane is a smoother and that might be a better starting place? But I’m no expert

[lowell holmes]

Black automotive paint is good to replace the japanning. I would look for a replacement lever cap.
I think you could grind the chip breaker. The plane is definitely a user even with the lever cap.
If you decide not to do it, send it to me.:rolleyes:

[Warren Mickley]

About the lever cap: I think it will work. I recommend getting the plane working and see if there are any adverse affects that can be attributable to the lever cap.

About the cap iron: It needs to be polished on the round portion so as not to catch shavings and carefully mated to the iron so that shavings don't get between the cap iron . Rounding of the cap iron is traditional and desirable.

I would first get the iron sharp and get the plane working. Then you can identify and work on real problems, not just trying to anticipate problems with no experience. I would say that this is a poor plane to learn planing technique with because it is heavy and tiring to use. But in any event sharpen it and give it a try.

[Jim Koepke]

As Warren has already mentioned, the rounding is likely not going to be a problem. As long as the cap iron seats against the back of the blade so none of the shavings can get caught, it will be fine.

Here is my post on fixing up an old #7:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373

It is a little older than yours. It now looks and works fine.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

See if there is anybody around Houston who can spend an afternoon showing you some stuff? Lots of folks on here from Texas, but I have heard it is a big state (almost half the size of Alaska they tell me).

[Stew Denton]

Mark,

You have some advise from some very knowledgeable folks. That said, if it were me, I would want to replace the lever cap. As was pointed out above, it might work just fine, but I would still want to replace it.

If I were you, I would look at how good and how expensive would your plane be once it is in great shape.

Well for the first question, how good and desirable is your plane? Answer: your plane is a type 11, as you probably know, and it just happens to be considered by some of the experts in these old planes as perhaps the single most desirable type number of all of the Stanley Bailey planes ever made. It is a highly desirable model. Once restored it should be a very good user. I like all of them from about the type 10 up to the type 14 or 15 or so. Others like even older models as well.

You have already answered the 2nd question, but a replacement lever cap is going to be much less expensive than one of the Bailey planes I described above that is ready to go. I think any of the lever caps made from about 1900 to 1930 for the Stanley Bailey or Bedrock planes should be just fine, the sizes of plane that will be right for your #7 are the #4 1/2, the #6, and the #7.

Sometimes you can find a broken plane in the right time frame on the auction site, and the right size that you can buy for a bargain price, but you may have to have patience. You might also be able to find one at a flea market that has a big chip out of it, and if so at a flea market you should be able to get it cheap. I bought one a year or two ago that had a good lever cap, chip breaker, tote, the various machine screws and tote and knob brass and steel fittings, and an iron for $7. It might also have other spare parts you would want to keep. The one I bought had only a chip out of the tail end of one of the cheeks, the chip was only about 1/2" long or so and would not affect performance, but I pointed it out and got some bucks off the price.

I think the 1930s kidney shaped slot type lever caps will probably also work, but I don't like them much, so would look at the earlier ones, but even so if appearance doesn't matter, and it works I would go for it.

I would not pay more than about $35 for a lever cap, and would consider that price as practically robbery, but might pay it anyway if in a big sweat to get the plane usable. Even at $35, that is still cheaper than buying a usable #7. That said, only you can determine how much trouble you want to go to, how long you want to have patience to save some money, and whether you would rather spend some more dollars to save headaches. The $35 is more than I would want to go, but would consider that much if frustrated enough or in a big enough hurry.

One thing about buying plane parts on Ebay, there are very limited number of sellers that specialize in these old plane parts, they are EXTREMELY proud of their parts. My guess is that 3 or 4 sellers control perhaps 90% of all of the plane parts listed there. They have priced them quite high for some time, but I looked the other day, and some of them seem to be a little more reasonable right now. Where you can get a bargain is when someone, other than one of these dealers, lists a part, and when that happens you can get a much more reasonable price, but you will have to wait for that to happen. Sometimes you may have to wait a few months.

Stew

[mark mcfarlane]

Wow, thanks everyone for being so helpful. I'll have to study all this tomorrow but I wanted to respond tonight.

Regarding the frog, it had a lot of rust in nooks and crannies but the milled mating surfaces were actually clean metal.

The front wooden knob is in good condition, the rear handle is missing part of the skinny top: it broke in the obvious location.

The iron is heavily pitted in places, but I'm pretty sure I can get an edge on it. It will never be pretty, but there is no pitting on the cutting end and I can mill the rest of it flat, with some pitting away from the edge.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Lever cap might work but it would bother me. I believe a #7 shares lever caps with a few other sizes- 4-1/2, some 5-1/2s, and 6. Anything 2-3/8" wide. Anything earlier than type 12, I think, will look about the same (no logos).

Not wild about the rounded cap iron unless you are going to be putting a lot of camber on the iron. However, as long as you can get the entire surface edge of the cap iron to mate to the iron back then it should work. But that's tricky with the undercut angle on the cap iron, you can't just lap it flat on a stone because there will be gaps at the corners when you set it on the iron. You'll have to do some trial and error. Be careful because there is not a lot of material to work with.

[Pete Taran]

Some things to consider. That lever cap is made of cast iron that can be brazed. If you file it flat and make a piece of mild steel to fit, you can get a simple brazing set at home depot, or take it to a pro. The result will be ugly, but you can clean it up with files and sand paper to be perfect. Just make the piece oversize in all areas so you can file to match.

Failing that, and considering the state of the plane and what you have in it, you might consider ordering some sheet brass and just making a new one. If going this route, you can drill and tap the top for a knurled screw. If you are really crafty and handy, you can drive out the existing pin and install it on the new one.

Considering the two options, I would just braze a piece of mild steel to what you have and roll with it. I once brazed a piece of brass to a steel veneering hammer so it didn't rust when rubbing with hide glue. I had never brazed anything before, but it worked great. The area is so small, with a mapp torch you will get it hot enough. Brazing is like solder, only the metal you are melting melts at a much higher temperature and is more durable. It still relies on very close fitting pieces, flux and the right amount of heat.

If you think you have these skills, you have little to lose in trying it out. This might help: https://www.bernzomatic.com/Projects/DIY/Braze-Metal-Together Looks like the NS3 rod is just the ticket for this type job.

You can watch this to see what you are dealing with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyUE7uyQOW8

[steven c newman]

Or...just see what nhplaneparts has for sale....might be able to get both replaced...

[Matthew Hartlin]

My 7 has a very similar break in the lever cap and has proven to work fine for the last 5 or so years I've been using it.

As for the cap iron, I have replaced all of my cap irons with the Lee Valley/Veritas modern version. Well worth the investment if the plane is going to be a user.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks gentlemen, Based on the possibility it may work, I'll keep on with my restoration and see what happens.

[lowell holmes]

Mark,
In case you are not aware of it, we have a woodworking club in Houston.
I used to go regularly, but after the flood I quit. I will be attending the next meeting.

http://www.wwch.org/HomePage.htm

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Lowell for letting me know. We live in Montgomery which is quite a haul from bellaire. I dont go to Houston very often, but maybe could combine a trip to the club with one to Clark’s 🤗

[John Skibo]

Hi, Lever cap is fine ,could get repaired but I wouldn't , like Matthew Hock or Veritas iron / cap , I put them on a #4 and #5 and was worth every penny.

[Kevin Hampshire]

Mark, It sounds like your original screws are shot.

Where are you getting your replacement screws?

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, It sounds like your original screws are shot.

Where are you getting your replacement screws?

Kevin, some of the screws now have serrations around the edges from vise grips, but I think they are still serviceable. I got all the rust off with Evaporust and a wire wheel. We'll see if the screws still move smoothly enough when I put it back together.

I got sidetracked on a few projects and a quick vacation but hopefully this week I'll get back to the plane. I'm rebuilding my workbench right now to make it more suitable for hand planing.

I did decide to purchase a new iron and cap, so I need to order them.

Anyone else have comments on the Matthew Hock versus Veritas blades and cap irons?

[mark mcfarlane]

FWIW, I ordered a new iron and cap set from Hock Tools. Lee Valley was out of stock, expected April 5th on the 2 3/8" iron sets.

[Tom Bender]

So Pete, you're suggesting that Mark, who is trying to learn to use a plane and has decided to take a path thru plane restoration should first learn to braze? Mark, be forewarned, this is a big pool and Pete is directing you to the deep end.

[Pete Taran]

Yep, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. If Mark has ever sweat a copper pipe to another copper pipe, he can braze. I think Mark can tread water!

[lowell holmes]

I use Veritas irons and breakers in my Bedrock Planes. I highly recommend them.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks everyone for the help, including possible repair techniques.

I reassembled the plane today. Left the cap iron chipped as it was, put in the new Hock blade and chip breaker, and it is shaving wood as expected. The pitting on this tool was very deep (seriously, maybe 50 years buried in the dirt...), so the sole isn't like a mirror, more like an unintentionally corrugated sole :), but it makes nice shavings. I really munged up the screw that holds the cap iron in place, it was rusted/frozen, so its not getting the best purchase right now. Some other adjustments aren't as smooth as they should be, so it still needs a little work and maybe a couple of new screws, but it shaves better than I expected.

My trials were in maple edge grain (butcher block workbench surface) and I got some occasional tear out, but I expect it will take many hours of practice and further tuning and sharpening and eventually I'll get better.

[Jim Koepke]

but it makes nice shavings. I really munged up the screw that holds the cap iron in place, it was rusted/frozen, so its not getting the best purchase right now. Some other adjustments aren't as smooth as they should be, so it still needs a little work and maybe a couple of new screws, but it shaves better than I expected.

Making shavings is what counts.

Check the Saw Mill Creek Classifieds. Someone has listed a ton of Stanley plane parts. They may have what you need.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I love Clark's as well. I need cypress for four lawn chairs.

[Allen Read]

Definitely keep going. The worst that can happen is that you have a little fun & frustration in the construction of door stop. :) But more likely you will end up with a nice user plane that will serve you well for many years.

IMO, a new lever cap is the way to go. I just checked and they are about $25 including shipping. However, the one you have will likely do to limp along for a little while. A new Hock iron and cap iron will add more to the plane's usability than most anything else. Unfortunately, Mr Hock is very proud of his blades too. Fortunately, he has some justification for this attitude. I'm gradually Hocking or is it Hockizing all of my old planes.

Be sure to post pictures when complete.

Allen

[Joe Bailey]

I'm gradually Hocking or is it Hockizing all of my old planes.

Allen

Actually, the proper term is "hockefying"

[Allen Read]

Actually, the proper term is "hockefying"

Thank you! I stand corrected. :) :)

Allen