"Knife wall"

[Derek Cohen]

In a very recent blog and video, Paul Sellers claimed (https://woodworkingmasterclasses.com/videos/the-paul-sellers-knifewall-technique/)he invented the knife wall and gave it its name. While I consider this to be a simple advertising stunt, it piqued my curiosity - how far back was this "method" documented, if this is actually possible? What other names have been used? Are you smiling?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

I could see a wall with knives sticking out of it. Something to release pent up tension, not that I have one of course.
The wall left behind by a marking knife clearly pre-dates the pencil. It was probably pre-dated by a scribe, I’m sure the Romans would have a good laugh at Paul’s expense. The Romans loved walls of all kinds; Hadrians wall, city walls etc. So a knife wall would have been second nature to a Roman carpenter.

[Simon MacGowen]

Sellers may have popularized the use of the knife wall for many woodworkers, but he did not invent it ((he did invent the term "knife wall", I think). Charles Hayward called it the sloping groove, cut with a chisel or trimming knife. At least another author has written about it, before Sellers.

Simon

[George Wall]

Sellers does not claim he invented the technique. He does make a claim that he coined the term "knife wall"; in the video, he mentions what he heard it called previously.

[Vincent Tai]

Darn, thought this thread was going to be Derek making a magnetic knife wall thing. Still a possibility?

[Derek Cohen]

Darn, thought this thread was going to be Derek making a magnetic knife wall thing. Still a possibility?

Or perhaps one using blue tape? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Sellers may have popularized the use of the knife wall for many woodworkers, but he did not invent it ((he did invent the term "knife wall", I think). Charles Hayward called it the sloping groove, cut with a chisel or trimming knife. At least another author has written about it, before Sellers.

Simon

Yeah, Simon. But it is implied, to be believed by his ultra loyal band of followers. That's what I find narcissistic.

On the other hand, I think the content of the video - the techniques - very useful. And Sellers is a wonderful teacher. Put the pronouncements aside, and he has some good content to offer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Vincent Tai]

Or perhaps one using blue tape? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Lol, I should've been more clear. Blue tape, that'll be a classic line if it isn't already. I meant those magnetic boards of wood that people use to store their kitchen knives. So I was genuinely quite excited for another DC build!

[Derek Cohen]

.... So I was genuinely quite excited for another DC build!

Thanks Vincent. I am in the planning stages of one that, hopefully, will be very interesting. At the moment I am building framed panels for the kitchen. Nothing exciting.

Back to the topic ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My guess is the method of cutting a line across a piece of wood and then excavating a notch next to it was used before Man figured out how to make a saw.

This method repeated over many times would eventually cut through a piece of wood.

Woodworkers have also likely created a wall with a marking knife or gauge when starting a rebate/rabbet for centuries.

My first question to myself when stumbling upon a new trick for the first time is, how many other woodworkers have done the same thing in the past?

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

But it is implied, to be believed by his ultra loyal band of followers. That's what I find narcissistic.

Interesting observation.

[Richard Jones]

Yeah, Simon. But it is implied, to be believed by his ultra loyal band of followers. That's what I find narcissistic.

On the other hand, I think the content of the video - the techniques - very useful. And Sellers is a wonderful teacher. Put the pronouncements aside, and he has some good content to offer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Agreed. And narcissistic is a perfect fit.

[Tony Zaffuto]

In defense of Sellers, maybe a decade ago or, when Sellers first came on the eaching scene, he released a series of DVD's and my dear wife bought the set for Chistmas (I gess she thought some of my techniques needed refined?). Puting aside the weird production graphics, the content was quite good, albiet basic.

At the beginning of each DVD, and several times through each, Sellers made the statement each DVD contained secrets of past masters. The knife wall was used throughout the series. If I recall correctly, he may have alluded to inventing the term.

I saw the use of a knife line technique many years before the Sellers series. Sellers being narcissistic? Ithink it maybe whoever advises and produces his videos. If he were on the other side, as the student, I hink he would cringe.

By he wa, hat DVD series would be excellent for a beginner. I can't recall if I was each all the way through, though, as virtually eaverything shown, I was already familiar with, and sime things I disagreed with (his convex chisel sharpening methods). He book hat accompanied the series, was excellent, though, and far better than the video.

[George Wall]

I'm not sure where it was implied anywhere that Sellers invented the technique. And from reading the comments, few, if any, subscribers seem to think Sellers invented the technique.

[Richard Jones]

Put down the knives boys, note the date.

How is the date relevant? Asking a question, not questioning................

[Mark Maleski]

Like Vincent Tai, I didn’t have any idea what a “knife wall” was when I clicked on this link. I admit part of my curiosity was that George Wall had last commented on the knife wall (ha!). Now I’ve ruined that by posting (follow me up, George!). All I really have to add to this discussion is that now I understand the term I’m going to stick with the terms I’ve always used: “strike a line” and “knife mark.”

[Pat Barry]

Why not give the guy credit for the term "knife wall"? Why care about something so trivial.

[Richard Jones]

My take, for what it's worth: I don't think Mr Sellers said he invented the technique, but I do think it was implied, maybe by omission.......

Me, I like different techniques by different people. Andy Rae, Tage Frid, Chris Gochnour, Mike Pekovich, Paul Sellers, etc. I do not blindly follow each and every thing they do or say. Make up my own mind, I do. Each one has something I like and don't like, and that's OK. But the 'his way or the highway' crap is silly. That pretty much negates any innovation, doesn't it, say, for something like diamond stones? Did his mentors have diamond stones? Why did he switch to them? Because they're better?

A really good teacher doesn't limit you by saying that this is the only way to accomplish something; they show you a method and then tell you that this is one way to do it, maybe you can find a better way. I don't see that in Mr. Sellers' 'teaching', and that's a shame.

BTW, I've 'coined' a lot of terms in my life as well, most of which are not appropriate for this forum!

[Jim Koepke]

Why not give the guy credit for the term "knife wall"? Why care about something so trivial.

Actually, it seems like he is taking credit for removing the space or hyphen and squishing it into one word. Buy the man a round.

jtk

[Richard Jones]

Why not give the guy credit for the term "knife wall"? Why care about something so trivial.

In my mind, I had already done just that. I didn't need him to tell me.

'Why care about something so trivial?" Exactly.

[steven c newman]

need to post here, to get back to the current file in my computer....;)
404789
Except I just call it "Knife a line".....

[Matt Evans]

My first question to myself when stumbling upon a new trick for the first time is, how many other woodworkers have done the same thing in the past?

jtk

Yep. And my first assumption is nearly always that I am merely the last in a very long string of people to arrive at the same conclusion/jig/technique/etc.

Dovetails have been around for 4000 years or so, so I'd imagine there isn't much new to discover making them.

[Frederick Skelly]

https://paulsellers.com/2017/12/whats-knifewall/

Put down the knives boys, note the date.

Good article Jim. Thanks.

Guys, Im not a Sellars follower. But I guess I don't see how claiming he invented a new buzzword for an ancient technique is narcissistic or negative. Here's part of what Sellers said in that article. Do you see something that I dont?

"It’s not that I invented its work, more that I defined the result of using it. [The term] Knifewall didn’t exist when I thought it up, started using it and then penned it, ......... So there I was, looking at my knifewall and standing in front of 20 students when, right out of the blue, I just said it. ‘KNIFEWALL!’ I said it again and then again, to solidify it, you know, and, well, it just fit. I’d said the word knifewall for the very first time and it meant exactly what it said. It was made with a knife and the knife made the wall you see. So I coined it, the word ‘knifewall‘, in the absence of an accurate term, to take its rightful place in the vernacular of woodworkers."

Fred

[Art Mann]

Mr. Sellers seems to think he has done something important or significant by making up a name for a technique used for centuries. I beg to differ.

[michael langman]

Makes me wonder how narcissistic the fellow was that came up with the word Woodworking!:o

[James Pallas]

This is really deep in the weeds. The practice is older than my working career, some 60 years now. I have to admit that I never heard it called a knife wall until I saw some of Seller's videos. I was just taught, knife a line or use the edge of a chisel to do so. Chisel up to it and use it as a guide for your hand saw or don't chisel it and use it to line up your power saw blade and prevent chipping of your good edge. If you use the chisel edge you have one less tool to keep track of and you have a flat side to run against your square or rule. It's like the tape thing too. I never used it for dovetails until I saw Derek's description of it. I did use masking tape, the old white kind, to mark many hinge butts for house doors that had finish on them so you wouldn't scratch the finish and other similar cases.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

This is really deep in the weeds. The practice is older than my working career, some 60 years now. I have to admit that I never heard it called a knife wall until I saw some of Seller's videos. I was just taught, knife a line or use the edge of a chisel to do so.
Jim

I pointed out that Hayward and others have covered the knife wall in their writings before Sellers, but I do believe that it is Sellers who has made thousands and more through his DVDs/videos aware for the first time of its power in getting clean results. Not only that, he was also able to, where others have failed including Hayward, demonstrate by step by step how a knife wall was knifed and chiselled. Using a knife then a chisel is slower, but easier to learn and do (some other people use just a knife; Frid a chisel only).

It is one thing telling you "chisel a sloping groove" in a passing mention (which by the way could mean anything, including a perfectly shaped V-groove, to someone starting to learn to use hand tools), and another showing you with clarity, as Sellers does, how to cut one.

Can anyone find evidence that someone else has done that with such clear instructions before Sellers? Alan Peters? Roy Underhill? Rob Cosman? James Krenov? Tage Frid? So I see Sellers' contribution here not in invention, but in making the knife wall popular. The knife wall concept and technique might have existed for a long long time, but how many modern day hobbyist woodworkers had been using it before Sellers popularized it? Almost none in the group of hand tool pals I have hung around with.

Simon

[Tony Zaffuto]

I pointed out that Hayward and others have covered the knife wall in their writings before Sellers, but I do believe that it is Sellers who has made thousands and more through his DVDs/videos aware for the first time of its power in getting clean results. Not only that, he was also able to, where others have failed including Hayward, demonstrate by step by step how a knife wall was knifed and chiselled. Using a knife then a chisel is slower, but easier to learn and do (some other people use just a knife; Frid a chisel only).

It is one thing telling you "chisel a sloping groove" in a passing mention (which by the way could mean anything, including a perfectly shaped V-groove, to someone starting to learn to use hand tools), and another showing you with clarity, as Sellers does, how to cut one.

Can anyone find evidence that someone else has done that with such clear instructions before Sellers? Alan Peters? Roy Underhill? Rob Cosman? James Krenov? Tage Frid? So I see Sellers' contribution here not in invention, but in making the knife wall popular. The knife wall concept and technique might have existed for a long long time, but how many modern day hobbyist woodworkers had been using it before Sellers popularized it? Almost none in the group of hand tool pals I have hung around with.

Simon

I believe I saw it much, much earlier than by Sellers, maybe Underhill or Frank Klaus. Whoever ir was, they struck a knife line, and then used a chisel to pare wood out, leaving the shoulder to guide a saw. Whoever it was is not that big of a deal, except to show a very useful technique.

In my earlier post, I did say Sellers said he was "unlocking" secrets of "old masters", and that he did. The main thing that puzzled me, was his convex bevel on his chisel sharpening.

[Simon MacGowen]

The main thing that puzzled me, was his convex bevel on his chisel sharpening.

His method did help a lot of people start freehand sharpening, because it is easy to copy for many people. If people can put a concave (hollow ground), why not a convex, right? I prefer a flat bevel since it has worked all these years for me.

But one taking from Sellers' sharpening method is that sharpening is something many obssesed people like to make it more complicated than it should be.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

But one taking from Sellers' sharpening method is that sharpening is something many obsessed people like to make it more complicated than it should be.

Simon

That is really the truth. It took me a while to learn that truth - many jigs and sharpening supplies - but eventually you learn that it's pretty simple.

I now use a WorkSharp with a diamond plate to establish the primary bevel and Shapton stones to put a secondary bevel on my tools. I hand hold the tool on the stones. Quick, easy and gives an excellent edge.

Mike

[James Waldron]

Among many others, I have an automatic feed of the Sellers blog; he posts most days. Without commenting on knifewall issues, I have observed that in the last time, since he moved to Oxford, he seems to post more and more "editorial" content on the "real meaning of woodworking" types of posts, waxing philosophic and nostalgic. Maybe he doesn't have enough instructive content to fill his blog on a daily basis. Maybe he's getting on in years and feeling his mortality. Maybe he's surrounded himself with so many minions running his expanded empire that he has a lot less to do and needs to fill the time. Who knows.

Some of it is of at lease passing interest, some not. It's his blog and his pence that pays for it; it's his prerogative. I find it distracting. A bit too narcissistic. Not what I'm there for.

I find I'm paying less and less attention to what he posts.

[Simon MacGowen]

I find I'm paying less and less attention to what he posts.

Same feeling here. I scan the title, and click if it is something I am interested in. He is very long-winded in writing, and often, I leave after reading the first or two paragraphs after knowing the content is not for me. His plywood workbench posts or videos are something I chose to avoid. What next? Another workbench...built of laminated boards?

Simon

[david charlesworth]

Deep knife and gauge lines are incredibly useful, for getting a crisp result. I was shown the chisel used as a knife technique about 46 years ago, by a restorer in Kendal.

I have been teaching this for many years.

Seems to me that the worst thing about Paul is his obsession with the No. 4 Plane.

The concept of trying to build a flat bench with one of these, seems like madness. As does morticing with the work held in the vice.

He has much sound advice and some that is dreadful.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[George Wall]

Same feeling here. I scan the title, and click if it is something I am interested in. He is very long-winded in writing, and often, I leave after reading the first or two paragraphs after knowing the content is not for me. His plywood workbench posts or videos are something I chose to avoid. What next? Another workbench...built of laminated boards?

Simon

Some of his blog posts are rambling monologues without much direction. His videos, both free and paid, are much better.


Deep knife and gauge lines are incredibly useful, for getting a crisp result. I was shown the chisel used as a knife technique about 46 years ago, by a restorer in Kendal.

I have been teaching this for many years.

Seems to me that the worst thing about Paul is his obsession with the No. 4 Plane.

The concept of trying to build a flat bench with one of these, seems like madness. As does morticing with the work held in the vice.

He has much sound advice and some that is dreadful.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

Sellers focuses on the #4 as the best plane for a beginner to start with. He has a point; used #4's are widely available and inexpensive. Even premium #4's are not too expensive. He also sometimes uses a #5 and even mentions a #5 1/2 as also being useful if a user is looking for a larger plane. But he uses the 4 most in his videos to show the new woodworker how to best use it. He seems to like flattening his bench top with the #4, though, calling it a great workout.

EDIT: Unlike Paul, I do use the ruler trick on my plane blades. Thanks so much, Dave, for your excellent videos on sharpening and techniques.

[lowell holmes]

I think this group is hostile to anything about Paul Sellers. I attended classes at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas when he was there.
He is a christian gentleman and the best woodworker I have ever seen.

[Bruce Haugen]

He is a christian gentleman and the best woodworker I have ever seen.

That may be. You should check out these guys (https://furnituremasters.org)

And these guys (https://www.sapfm.org/cartouche-award-recipients)

[Simon MacGowen]

I think this group is hostile to anything about Paul Sellers. I attended classes at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas when he was there.
He is a christian gentleman and the best woodworker I have ever seen.

People do have different takes on him, or, for that matter, on any other woodworkers brought up for discussion here or elsewhere. Sellers as a teacher is way better than many others, because he is able to break down a complex task into many smaller ones, and small ones into mini-steps (think Norm Abram). He is also very good at understanding beginners' struggles (which he might have observed when he took on his apprentices), and knows what to focus on in some of his videos. No other online teachers can compare to him in terms of teaching effectiveness.

But anyone who has browsed his posts and comments would not miss the point that he is not very open to any other techniques or methods that he doesn't use or advocate. For example, had he not been using a router like a marking gauge, I am pretty sure he would have labelled such practice as anything but good.

Simon

[Tony Zaffuto]

I think this group is hostile to anything about Paul Sellers. I attended classes at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas when he was there.
He is a christian gentleman and the best woodworker I have ever seen.

I don't read it that way at all Lowell, though there may be some poking at his idiosyncracies (which we all have). I would love to see Paul post here.

[Chris Parks]

Among many others, I have an automatic feed of the Sellers blog; he posts most days. Without commenting on knifewall issues, I have observed that in the last time, since he moved to Oxford, he seems to post more and more "editorial" content on the "real meaning of woodworking" types of posts, waxing philosophic and nostalgic. Maybe he doesn't have enough instructive content to fill his blog on a daily basis. Maybe he's getting on in years and feeling his mortality. Maybe he's surrounded himself with so many minions running his expanded empire that he has a lot less to do and needs to fill the time. Who knows.

Some of it is of at lease passing interest, some not. It's his blog and his pence that pays for it; it's his prerogative. I find it distracting. A bit too narcissistic. Not what I'm there for.

I find I'm paying less and less attention to what he posts.

That about sums it up, he has done WW a huge service in helping to introduce technique and methods to many people but his philosophical ramblings leave me cold.

[Frederick Skelly]

Geez, this place is gettin' to be a really tough audience. In the last year we've had a grumbly threads on Schwartz, a couple really ugly posts about Charlesworth and now we have a "crap on Paul Sellars" thread?

But why all the vitriol every single time? Do they have egos? YES!!!!!! Celebs often develop big egos. But if you think one of them is full of crap, ignore them.

I just don't get it. SMC is such a great group of people, but we do this anti-your-favorite-celebrity routine a lot.

(Stepping off soapbox now.....)

[Chris Parks]

I didn't read the thread in that light at all and I thought PS got due regard for his woodwork teaching but he is a failure (for me) as a philosopher. I think he is a born teacher, one of those that can remember what it was like for him when he was learning and that is a point a lot of teachers in any profession forget.

[John Schtrumpf]

Paul Sellers is a good teacher and gives away a lot for free. As for his philosophy, well he is from the hippie age more or less (I'm from the dazed and confused age).

[Chris Parks]

Us Hippies have got to stick together. :D

[Stewie Simpson]

I would love to see Paul post here. :confused:

Tony; seriously, why would Paul Sellars want to associate himself with SMC.

Stewie;

[Simon MacGowen]

:confused:

Tony; seriously, why would Paul Sellars want to associate himself with SMC.

Stewie;

Or Chris Schwarz, or Rob Cosman (both used to), etc.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Deep knife and gauge lines are incredibly useful, for getting a crisp result. I was shown the chisel used as a knife technique about 46 years ago, by a restorer in Kendal.

I have been teaching this for many years.

Seems to me that the worst thing about Paul is his obsession with the No. 4 Plane.

The concept of trying to build a flat bench with one of these, seems like madness. As does morticing with the work held in the vice.

He has much sound advice and some that is dreadful.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

David, I agree about this "obsession with the #4", and that Paul "has much sound advice and some that is dreadful".

One must keep in mind that everyone has preferred ways of doing this, be they sharpening, joinery or jointing. It is the openness to this that, in my opinion, differentiates a great teacher from a good one. I am mindful of a professor of mine, Dreyer Kruger, when I was in psychology graduate school in the late 70's: A lady in her late 60s arrived for an appointment with him to discuss the possibility of researching a Master's degree. When she told him that the topic was levitation, he leaned back in his chair to reflect for a while. Finally he said to her, "Well Isaac Newton has been around 300 years. It's time for a change". And she received permission to go ahead. I loved his sense of humour and flexible attitude to life.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

:confused:

Tony; seriously, why would Paul Sellars want to associate himself with SMC.

Stewie;

With this present thread, he would not, but I suspect he would be able to "understand" us and probably teach us a thing or three.

[Jim Koepke]

I think this group is hostile to anything about Paul Sellers. I attended classes at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas when he was there.
He is a christian gentleman and the best woodworker I have ever seen.


I don't read it that way at all Lowell, though there may be some poking at his idiosyncracies (which we all have). I would love to see Paul post here.

Previous expressions of my thoughts toward Paul Sellers may be among those Lowell has found to be underwhelming.

He is an accomplished woodworker who has taught others.

He just isn't my flavor of tea.

Has anyone tried his convex bevel sharpening method on water stones?

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Previous expressions of my thoughts toward Paul Sellers may be among those Lowell has found to be underwhelming.

He is an accomplished woodworker who has taught others.

He just isn't my flavor of tea.

Has anyone tried his convex bevel sharpening method on water stones?

jtk

Let's see, maybe 1980 or 81, I tried convex sharpening. I did it on a worn out 120 grit electric stationary belt sander, finished honed on a carborundum fine stone. It got them sharp (at least to what I thought was sharp at the time), and pretty much was my method through my "electricity" era, of about twenty years. Around 2000, I moved to hand tools, and with rhat move came an imported Eclipse jig and waterstones. I had begun to learn what was sharp. Through my electric era, I had a #5 Bailey and a 60-1/2 block plane. With handtools, I learned the joys of acquiring many dozens (albeit not using them all) of planes, saws, chisels, braces and so forth!

[Chris Parks]

Just speculating here but his "obsession" with a No.4 plane might have something to do with old habits. I would speculate that he had to make do with a limited amount of tools due to not being wealthy and apprentices wages have never been very much so he had a 4 and maybe one or two others until he got further into his training and made do with that for stuff we today would pick up another plane to do.

[JimA Thornton]

Just speculating here but his "obsession" with a No.4 plane might have something to do with old habits. I would speculate that he had to make do with a limited amount of tools due to not being wealthy and apprentices wages have never been very much so he had a 4 and maybe one or two others until he got further into his training and made do with that for stuff we today would pick up another plane to do.

I think that's definitely the basis for his thinking, as well as teaching. His mission is getting new folks into hand tool woodworking with minimal tools. Someone mentioned that planing a workbench top with a No. 4 is "madness". Well it certainly isn't if you're just starting out and only have a No. 4! A lot of folks seem to have forgotten what it was like just starting out.

Jim

[Edwin Santos]

I'm not an ardent follower of Paul Sellers, but I think calling him a narcissist is a bit petty, or at least uncalled for. He seems to be a genuine and sincere enough person.
If someone doesn't like him or doesn't like the methods he teaches, then just don't watch.
If you don't have anything nice to say.......

[Gary Focht]

As a hand tool newbie, I will say this. Paul Sellers has the most clear, detailed, easily understandable, and free content for learning out there that I found. I have no idea yet what I am missing in the paid content/DVD world, but what Paul has made available free on the internet when it comes to instruction is unmatched as far as I have found.

[Bruce Haugen]

With this present thread, he would not, but I suspect he would be able to "understand" us and probably teach us a thing or three.

This whole thread reminds me of an old higher education joke:

Q. Why are academic arguments so vicious?

A. Because there's so little at stake.

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

Levitation is clearly the way to go !!

David

[Tony Zaffuto]

Soon this thread will devolve more into a variation of "The Teachings of Don Juan", by Carlos Castenada.