Do Pros use rough sawn boards for Kitchen cabinet builds?

[Bill Space]

Just have to ask this question!

I am turning some boards that came from an ash tree on the property into dimensioned boards for a kitchen I am building in my “hobby house”. This is on the property next door which I bought just before retiring. I bought it for the land and to ensure we would not have to deal with an undesirable neighbor during our remaining years (decades hopefully :) ). So there is no rush to get the house finished. I basically gutted the place and except for the basic frame everything inside is new, or will be.

Anyway, I have concluded it must be impractical for a pro to mill his own lumber to be used in making cabinets, unless possibly if it is a high end (read very expensive) installation. Just seems like it would be much more efficient time wise to buy demensioned lumber and “just get it done”.

Curious to hear how close I am to hitting the target with this conclusion.

Bill

[johnny means]

You would be wrong there. Keep in mind that using s4s only means that you paid someone else to do the milling. There really is no way to eliminate that cost. Many shops do farm out certain operations, everything from milling to drawer and door building. Some shops even farm out cabinet part production. But this is more about choosing what you want to concentrate on or have the ability to do and less about actual profitability. In my experience, the big manufacturers pretty much have a lock on semi custom and operate very lean. So all that's left for the little guy is the total custom end of the market.

[bill tindall]

For 35 years we sold rough, KD, graded lumber to local cabinet shops. Some tiny shops lacked a planer and we sold the lumber surfaced on the faces to them.

[Andrew Joiner]

I was a self employed pro from 1971 to 1994. Made mostly store fixtures and office furniture. The first 4 years I used S2S and jointed edges. After that I only bought S3S. The upcharge over rough was tiny. I was in a big city and ordered from 3 wholesale yards that delivered for free. 95% of it was flat and straight. Lumber that I rejected was rare, but the yards would pick it up for free and give me full credit.
For me it was way faster and cheaper to order S3S.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Depends on the cabinets in my shop, usually I order with a straight edge and S2S for all things paint grade and lower quality. If it's more expensive, I like to do all the milling. I rarely build whole kitchens though, generally just a custom cabinet built to match what they have, built ins, or customizing something one of the big companies made. The guys who exclusively do cabinets for a living probably have a different approach.

[Martin Wasner]

We buy S2S. In a production environment, if you don't have a moulder or double sided planer surfacing everything, it takes too long in my opinion.

We have a rip saw, so I don't see the need to buy it with a clean edge. When we didn't, I always ordered S3S.

Then there's the sawdust. Tough to deal with in a small shop when emptying the collector isn't automatic.

[Bill Space]

Some years ago I bought what is called here surfaced two sides, one straight edge. I think this is what Andrew is referring to as S3S.

Time difference between what I am doing now and using that s2s one straight edge stuff is huge. For me anyway.

This is what drove my question. Just seems like there would be more money to be made building and installing cabinets than milling lumber. Don’t really know, hence the question.

[Andrew Seemann]

I'm not a pro, but anytime I need more than about 100 bd ft of something, I just have the yard do a S2S & SL1E (surface 2 sides plus a straight line rip), and have it delivered. It isn't worth my time to drive 50 mies round trip, pick out lumber, and then stand in front of the jointer and planer for a couple hours. Plus there is the wear and tear on my knives (and body). Whatever they use doesn't leave any snipe, and the surface finish isn't too bad. Sometimes I might have them do a 7/8ths hit and miss if I want to do the final planing for some reason. I have even had them rip to width if I needed enough of something and was in a time crunch, like when I redid all the trim on the first floor of my old house.

If I were a pro, I would definitely have them do it for me. To me, jointing and thicknessing wood is the most drudgerous part of woodworking, and it would be the first thing I would outsource.

[Richard Coers]

I ran my shop from '87-95. I started ordering rough sawn, then a couple years in I would order it hit or miss to 15/16" off a strat-o-planer. The mill I was ordering from, would send me rough sawn 4/4 that could be almost 1 1/4" thick. It took a lot of effort to get it to 7/8 or 13/16.

[Andrew Joiner]

It isn't worth my time to drive 50 mies round trip, pick out lumber, and then stand in front of the jointer and planer for a couple hours. Plus there is the wear and tear on my knives (and body).


Right Andrew. Even if I would've gotten rough hardwood for free it would cost more than paying for S3S hardwood.
To drive any distance, sort, load, and unload. Then face joint, plane, edge joint with hand feeding long stock thru the jointer. The costs for labor and maintenance on the machines would add up.

[Mel Fulks]

I have had to use pre- dressed at times ,as an employee. Think glue joints are best done with wood that is not twisted.
I like useing my skill to dress material. Sometimes the real reason the wood is bought dressed is management will not
demand that workers cut down on breaks and improve skills.

[Wayne Lomman]

If it is cabinet joinery, purchasing straightline gauged timber is OK provided you have a good supplier. Buy it from a big box store and you are in deep trouble.

If it is precision work as in chair making and the like, it is not worth paying the mill to dress it as sizes are odd, you have to select every piece for figure and colour etc so rough sawn is best.

As with most things, it is not a one size fits all answer. The best solution is worked out when estimating the job so that you allow the correct times and resources. If it is line ball on cost, I always take on the labour myself. Why not keep busy? Subcontracting is for stuff you either don't want to do or can't do and I would rather pay myself than a subbie. But then I am perfectly happy standing at a machine for days, especially when I can look out over the farm and beyond to the World Heritage reserves of Western Tasmania. Cheers

[peter gagliardi]

For as long as I have been in business, we have bought almost exclusively rough lumber, and done all the milling ourselves.
The only exceptions are with exotics , and South American woods, which we have them S2S to get rid of the gravel that is ALWAYS embedded in it.
It does not take that long to mill stock.

[Jim Becker]

Some volume operators are likely going to be more inclined to buy surfaced stock in some cases, but others have the gear to run the rough stock through and come up with boards ready to work. For the latter, the machines that often get used are a little more capable than the things that we solitary workers tend to have in our shops...they feed the material automagicallly and work multiple surfaces concurrently. The shop I was in for a sign workshop down in VA a few months ago had such a machine and it was pretty slick. Personally, I would prefer to work the sticks myself because i have complete control of grain and color and can also cut boards out of rough stock "not parallel" to the sawmill edge when that's the right choice for a component. But I build things "one at a time" and that attention to detail gets charged to a paying customer.

[Joe Calhoon]

We have always surfaced and S4S our own stock. Even before we had a straightening S4S moulder. I can see where a larger custom cabinet only shop would buy S2S SLR1E stock. Especially if they are in a competitive market.

I prefer hit and miss over rough. 4/4 is usually 15/16 and 8/4 is 1 15/16. The advantage to H&M is you can see the grain of the lumber, see defects, it is usually cleaner from dirt and rocks and still enough thickness to get everything straight and flat.

Some species only come rough. In this case we usually face one surface on the jointer to look at the grain before proceeding to rough out parts. Rough is a lot more work to process and makes more shavings.

[Mark Wooden]

Another who buys RS4S or H&M. Better control of the stock used, less waste in the end. I don't have to deal with twist, cup or bow as I mill it all out when processing.
As I most often build full face frame, flush doors on leaf hinges, I need FLAT.

[Patrick Walsh]

A mix depends on the task.

A typical hardwood order consists of.....

4/4 s3s
4/4 rough
5/4 s3s
5/4 rough
8/4 rough

We use what we use task dependent. Face frames can normally be built out of anything other than what is just going straight to the garbage. Yeah time to time on the regular kinda you fight square but if you cut your ff and carcass parts exact matching sizes, stiles/rails carcass sides bottoms and stretchers partions. Then pay attention durning assembly it all glues up square.

Much of the time 99.9% of our doors are built from s3s or rather s2s and straight lined material. I. Th event of large doors and or large panels we will mill up what we need. Lots of material get thrown away. It’s bad practice for our earth. Imop and I’m a convert that fought tooth and nail it’s really hard if not impsssivle to make money in a comepetative market any other way.

Milling lumber seems like a minor amount of work and for one thing here or ther it is. But when you mill everything then add to the equation all the other aspects of a built you take to the upteenth degree it adds up to pricing yourself right out of getting the job.

That’s just my experience I’m sure others may vary as indicated above.

[mreza Salav]

Not a pro here but I've been to a bunch of small pro-shops and most now get their cabinet doors from big factories, do the boxes and install, let alone milling lumber. It's just not possible to compete with those big factories. When I was doing my own house I wanted cabinet doors in Walnut but with so many things going I listen to my wife and ordered the doors. What a wise decision. The doors I got (all 144 of them) were flawless in built and I am very fussy and picky. Excellent job in matching the grains too. I did the staining, boxes, and everything else for the cabinets. It would cost me 70% of that just to buy enough lumber and the rate I get from the wholesaler is as good as any other cabinet shop in the area. That was a wise $9k I spent and I can see why so many other shops are doing it.
It also depends on the market you are at. Spending time milling the lumber means less time for other jobs that could be higher paying. So some set their priorities differently.

[Mel Fulks]

Just thought of something else. The habit of being picky and enjoying work can pay off. One of the last jobs I did before
retiring was ,I think ,about 20 doors 8 feet tall but narrow. For some kind of closet thing. Boss asked me about laminating
the stiles and added the client was was real particular. Told him I could ganrantee they would all be straight if he just
bought North Eastern white pine. He picked up one the first ones ,sighted it and said ,"that's straight alright". Client was
happy too. The stiles were ,as memory serves, about 1and 3/8" X 2 and 1/2 X 8'

[Martin Wasner]

Milling lumber seems like a minor amount of work and for one thing here or ther it is. But when you mill everything then add to the equation all the other aspects of a built you take to the upteenth degree it adds up to pricing yourself right out of getting the job.

Bingo. I can pitch a lot of lumber for what it costs to face joint and surface the amount of lumber we go through. At an average cost of $.57 per minute per employee, that adds up in a hurry. Very few operations in cabinets have the justification for it, or will dictate it's necessity.

As soon as somebody says that, people think you're whipping up garbage and charging an arm and a leg for it. Roughing parts, facing, surfacing, and sizing is definitely going to get a better product out of lesser material, but I need to make money at this. Most of what you're paying for in cabinets is labor, and you wouldn't be doubling the labor, but you'd be significantly increasing it. If the yield is a few percent lower, so be it.

[Bill Space]

Bingo. I can pitch a lot of lumber for what it costs to face joint and surface the amount of lumber we go through. At an average cost of $.57 per minute per employee, that adds up in a hurry. Very few operations in cabinets have the justification for it, or will dictate it's necessity.

As soon as somebody says that, people think you're whipping up garbage and charging an arm and a leg for it. Roughing parts, facing, surfacing, and sizing is definitely going to get a better product out of lesser material, but I need to make money at this. Most of what you're paying for in cabinets is labor, and you wouldn't be doubling the labor, but you'd be significantly increasing it. If the yield is a few percent lower, so be it.

Lots of interesting replies. Thanks guys!

I think Martin hit the nail on the head as far as what I was thinking when I started this thread.

Of course one size doesn’t fit all. :)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Bingo. I can pitch a lot of lumber for what it costs to face joint and surface the amount of lumber we go through. At an average cost of $.57 per minute per employee, that adds up in a hurry. Very few operations in cabinets have the justification for it, or will dictate it's necessity.

As soon as somebody says that, people think you're whipping up garbage and charging an arm and a leg for it. Roughing parts, facing, surfacing, and sizing is definitely going to get a better product out of lesser material, but I need to make money at this. Most of what you're paying for in cabinets is labor, and you wouldn't be doubling the labor, but you'd be significantly increasing it. If the yield is a few percent lower, so be it.

Couldn't agree more, exactly right.

[Larry Edgerton]

Depends on the cabinets in my shop, usually I order with a straight edge and S2S for all things paint grade and lower quality. If it's more expensive, I like to do all the milling. I rarely build whole kitchens though, generally just a custom cabinet built to match what they have, built ins, or customizing something one of the big companies made. The guys who exclusively do cabinets for a living probably have a different approach.

Kinda where I am at. I do whole kitchens but they are usually over the top or I would not get them. If I was Martin, I would do it his way.

About 70% the time I order s2s rough planed to 15/16. Then it is clean, or relatively so and save on planer inserts. With stubborn woods like Jatoba I want it in the rough so I can sneak up on the final size myself. I do not find any of my suppliers planers are as good as mine so I prefer to plane it myself just before I produce the parts, leaving it at 15/16 until I am ready to use it. Chips are not a factor, I blow them outside and clean up with a tractor.

Define Pro. Some would say I am not a pro because I don't have a big enough gross, others would think Martins operation is small, and some who make custom furniture may not look at it the same way as most.

[Andrew Joiner]

Define Pro. Some would say I am not a pro because I don't have a big enough gross, others would think Martins operation is small, and some who make custom furniture may not look at it the same way as most.
Good idea Larry.
To me me it's anyone who gets paid. Within that there's full time pro and part time pro. Some may work "under the table" and not claim income. I was a full time tax paying cabinetmaker with a side job as a landlord.

[Mark Bolton]

I agree with the pro definition being if its your living. Size/scale isnt really a factor.

Its always true that every job is different but the surfacing lumber thing seems to me to always come down to the type of work you do, and the margins in the work you do. Unless you have a good profit margin in your day to day work, or your have a massive shop with on-board and in-house sharpening, massive investment in dust collection, which = volume as opposed to margin,there is no way you can surface material in your shop and be profitable as opposed to buying it in dressed at some level. Anyone who has stood in front of a single sided planer for 1MBF of material realizing all the while that when they are through the pile they are a long ways from done will gladly hand you the $0.17 a foot it costs to bring it in where you want it. Same with straight lining if you dont have an SLR. There is no way you can be profitable surfacing your own material unless your doing boutique work.

Our supplier runs a massive two sided planer that takes dead rough to any thickness we ask in a single pass. All the chips are never handled, they are blown into a hopper and then fed into the boilers that feed the dry kilns. There is no bins, hoppers, tractor trailers to empty and move. Zero. They consider their planer a "roughing" planer with on-board sharpening the material is usable right out of the pack. Even bringing it in skipped at 15/16 is a waste for us when we are working with 4/4 because we've got to take it to size, knicks in the knives, resharp, hauling chips, emptying drums, blowing out filters.

On high end work with grain matching/sorting/color, interior and exterior doors, thats not your typical "cabinet shop" that other than panel glue ups is working with relatively small parts. For the high end work it makes some sense though even there I'd be letting the big boys take off every bit of material I could and bringing it in with just enough to leave me room. Handling chips is by far the biggest time suck in the shop for me.

[Martin Wasner]

Define Pro. Some would say I am not a pro because I don't have a big enough gross, others would think Martins operation is small, and some who make custom furniture may not look at it the same way as most.

Don't kid yourself, my business is tiny.

[Martin Wasner]

And as far as defining pro. If it's your profession, you're a pro. Doesn't mean you're any good at your job though.

[Rich Aldrich]

The issue that I see is getting the lumber dry. Air dried is OK and normally takes a year to air dry for 1" rough sawn lumber. If you can have someone kiln dry it, that would be best. I work at a mill where we cut 70,000 bdft of hardwood a day and can dry 350,000 bdft every 7 to 14 days depending on if the lumber can be put in the pre-dryer. When you have a good kiln operator, they know how to minimize the stress in the lumber.

Some of the new lumber dryers work more like a dehydrator than a kiln. They do a good job. I had 650 bdft of Oak dried this way and made a lot of cabinets for people out of that lumber - no complaints.

I have air dried maple for 2 years and had success for my work bench in the shop. If you have very low humidity in the house in the winter, that could be an issue with air dried.

[Mark Bolton]

The issue that I see is getting the lumber dry. Air dried is OK and normally takes a year to air dry for 1" rough sawn lumber. If you can have someone kiln dry it, that would be best. I work at a mill where we cut 70,000 bdft of hardwood a day and can dry 350,000 bdft every 7 to 14 days depending on if the lumber can be put in the pre-dryer. When you have a good kiln operator, they know how to minimize the stress in the lumber.

Some of the new lumber dryers work more like a dehydrator than a kiln. They do a good job. I had 650 bdft of Oak dried this way and made a lot of cabinets for people out of that lumber - no complaints.

I have air dried maple for 2 years and had success for my work bench in the shop. If you have very low humidity in the house in the winter, that could be an issue with air dried.

The year per inch rule has been debunked for a a long time. Inch lumber stickered and stacked in a reasonably ventilated area is going to lose all the moisture it can in 6 months or less. Now if your stacking it in the attic of a barn, or some other issues, wrapping it in black plastic, thats different. But the year per inch rule pertains moreso to thick lumber as opposed to 5/4 and 4/4. That said, no air dried lumber, no matter what, can be relied upon as stable for product for sale (other than perhaps some high end furniture work that requires green material for steam bending for instance).

All of your material if your "in business" should be kiln dried to protect your customer, and protect yourself, against a lawsuit due to bug infestation as well as dimensional stability. You drop a piece of work that was made from 10 year old air dried wood into a modern home that doesnt have high dollar humidification (winter) and dehumidification (summer) and you may likely have some serious headaches.

A workbench in a shop is a lot different than a $3K 8/4 hard Maple butcher block island. You build something like that out of 50 year old air dried lumber you may need to hang onto your hat.

[Andrew Joiner]

For as long as I have been in business, we have bought almost exclusively rough lumber, and done all the milling ourselves.
The only exceptions are with exotics , and South American woods, which we have them S2S to get rid of the gravel that is ALWAYS embedded in it.
It does not take that long to mill stock.

Peter , how do you mill faces flat? S4S moulder?

[J.R. Rutter]

For cabinet doors, I buy all lumber hit and miss planed to 15/16". That lets you see the color and grain easily and tends to reveal problem boards. We straight line rip into strips and S4S on a moulder before chopping into staves for panel glue-up and rail/stile parts. For jobs that have a lot of tall uppers, we will pre-chop so that shorter strips are going through the moulder so they end up flatter. We're only skimming off ~3/32" on the thickness, but this is enough to get flat doors at 13/16" finished thickness. I tend to use the more rift grain edges of planks for the bulk of the frames, and the flat grain for panels.

[Warren Lake]

always jointed and planed from rough. JR on those longer doors how long is long. Ive looked at some of the top kitchen companies with long doors at 13/16 and when I open them they bend. They have a magnet at one end only usually the top and as I pull on the handle the door will bend before the magnet releases. Last show i looked at the two door corners side by side were no longer flush, not helped by the door bending when opened. I think a lot of the british kitchen builders do 1" doors.

[Patrick Walsh]

In my area 1” doors are standard in the high end market.

We don’t do them unless specified and as mentioned above the 3/4 doors are cheap as all get out imop. Never in my house that’s for sure.

I keep telling the boss 1” doors and FF standard and it won’t barely cost anymore. He keeps telling me to And or having me order 13/16..

Imop it’s a big mistake. But you know I’m not the boss and it’s not my money..

[J.R. Rutter]

always jointed and planed from rough. JR on those longer doors how long is long. Ive looked at some of the top kitchen companies with long doors at 13/16 and when I open them they bend. They have a magnet at one end only usually the top and as I pull on the handle the door will bend before the magnet releases. Last show i looked at the two door corners side by side were no longer flush, not helped by the door bending when opened. I think a lot of the british kitchen builders do 1" doors.

Long for me is about 40 - 48". My customers seem to all use just euro hinges, no magnets. I don't warranty anything over 48" tall.

[Mel Fulks]

I've always disliked overlay doors, don't think I could get used to whole inch thick.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah 1” for inset or partial Inset overlay only. Slab style overlay I agree 1” would be weird.


I've always disliked overlay doors, don't think I could get used to whole inch thick.

[Warren Lake]

Mel wasnt asking about doors on boxes or over frames, I should have said inset. I think Patrick is talking inset as well. I didnt know anyone does partial overlay door? Ive seen that in Upper Quebec furniture and German stuff but its always on furniture so wonder what you are talking. Its a thing of the past I thought definitely a different look than inset, a little less formal or something.

atrick thanks on the 1" thing. Ive done even thicker on vanities say using left over material from other jobs. JR if you dont warranty anything over that length why not just step up to thicker material for those longer doors, its not going to wiggle and its more stable. That is what I dont get on those high end kitchens, I remember opening a longer door same company maybe a pantry. It bent like a bannana till the pulls released. I realize it goes back but there is no way stressing a door like that is positive. JR those kitchens im referring to all had mortise hinges, which brings up another thing I think about seeing a 1.00 magnet holding a door on an upper end kitchen. I keep thinking there must be nicer ways than that.

[Patrick Walsh]

Rare earth magnet embedded in the door and ff.

I guess I call partial overlay when you have a run of cabs that has a dog leg rail left and right but all the cabs in between are full overlay.

Let me see if I can dig up a picture or two?


Mel wasnt asking about doors on boxes or over frames, I should have said inset. I think Patrick is talking inset as well. I didnt know anyone does partial overlay door? Ive seen that in Upper Quebec furniture and German stuff but its always on furniture so wonder what you are talking. Its a thing of the past I thought definitely a different look than inset, a little less formal or something.

atrick thanks on the 1" thing. Ive done even thicker on vanities say using left over material from other jobs. JR if you dont warranty anything over that length why not just step up to thicker material for those longer doors, its not going to wiggle and its more stable. That is what I dont get on those high end kitchens, I remember opening a longer door same company maybe a pantry. It bent like a bannana till the pulls released. I realize it goes back but there is no way stressing a door like that is positive. JR those kitchens im referring to all had mortise hinges, which brings up another thing I think about seeing a 1.00 magnet holding a door on an upper end kitchen. I keep thinking there must be nicer ways than that.

[Patrick Walsh]

Like this..

These actually have 1” doors. We built them for another shop, everything was specified..

I call this partial overlay I guess

404892

404893

404894

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,that's a good look with that edge to edge design.

[Warren Lake]

thanks Patrick, understood I guess id call that full overlay but it doent have the look of a door plunked on a box. So you do those doors 1" as well. yes ive done the imbedded magnet top and bottom and also used bullet catches top and bottom as well even both same time thanks on that. grain on the island is upside down, apology for being negative on that comment.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yup I agree,

The shop we built the kitchen for did all the walnut. It was bleached or something also and imop looks like poo poo..


thanks Patrick, understood I guess id call that full overlay but it doent have the look of a door plunked on a box. So you do those doors 1" as well. yes ive done the imbedded magnet top and bottom and also used bullet catches top and bottom as well even both same time thanks on that. grain on the island is upside down, apology for being negative on that comment.

[Rich Aldrich]

All of your material if your "in business" should be kiln dried to protect your customer, and protect yourself, against a lawsuit due to bug infestation as well as dimensional stability. You drop a piece of work that was made from 10 year old air dried wood into a modern home that doesnt have high dollar humidification (winter) and dehumidification (summer) and you may likely have some serious headaches.

A workbench in a shop is a lot different than a $3K 8/4 hard Maple butcher block island. You build something like that out of 50 year old air dried lumber you may need to hang onto your hat.

I should have been more direct. I do not build anything for others out of air dried lumber, especially since I have such a great resource to procure dried lumber. This is something that needs to be considered if you are going to have anyone mill lumber for you. How are you going to dry it?

[Warren Lake]

thanks,

while im being negative the lower rails should be wider, they look the same as the top rail if so should be wider. The end panel that you have what thickness is that and is it also solid not MDF and if its solid poplar or soft maple. I assume that is a sprayed white. I asked one top company recently and their painted stuff was poplar. Now if I was paying attention more I would have said poplar on hand painted only and soft maple for sprayed. Didnt think of it till day or two later.

[Patrick Walsh]

End panel, on the island or fridge cab or wet bar?

If island again we did not build it thank god. It’s uglly a hell. Let me find another picture if I can of a different angle, the stile rail proportions are just a mess.

This project came to us with shop drawings not to be deviated from. We even had to use the same construction techniques the shop that subbed it to us would use had they built it themself.

Zero of the design was up to us or up for negotiation. You know a architect and decorator probably drew it and sold it.

Everything we build paint grade is paint grade soft maple and mdf panels. We are thinking of switching to poplar as it seems much more stable and with the dimension vrs rough topic it seems much more flat when you receive a order.


thanks,

while im being negative the lower rails should be wider, they look the same as the top rail if so should be wider. The end panel that you have what thickness is that and is it also solid not MDF and if its solid poplar or soft maple. I assume that is a sprayed white. I asked one top company recently and their painted stuff was poplar. Now if I was paying attention more I would have said poplar on hand painted only and soft maple for sprayed. Didnt think of it till day or two later.

[Patrick Walsh]

Warren,

A waste of lumber imop..

Thing is hiddious. I like our cans quite a bit “again we designed nothing” so I’m notbtooting my own horn.

End panels on painted cabs are 1” miter wrapped with 1/2 mdf panels.

404914

404915

And to show why I call it partial overlay. Face frames just on the stiles and rails full height doors. We often build this style with a top rail flush to doors so I guess it’s like inset with no bottom rail.

404916

Again I just build what I’m told to build.

[Warren Lake]

thanks I guess I saw the final gable end panel on the right and its viewed from the front wondered on how thick it is. I think about this stuff too often. Materials used to do that one thing then design one thing, proportions another. when I was asking I wondered if its solid or not. If so then what thickness comes to mind. The kitchen place MDF as well for the panels. Off the gun painted stuff soft maple is a bit nicer. In the case of that kitchen I should have asked even if sprayed do they still use poplar like with the hand painted. I relate the material used to how it will be finished, sometimes an advantage to use a negative in the material to help in the final finish.

[Warren Lake]

thanks on the end panel would not have thought of that. So viewed from the front that end panel thickness is 1" if im understanding you correctly think so

[Warren Lake]

I posted two emails I dont see and rather than log off to see if they are there, thanks for the front on photo that shows the gable end proportion to the doors compared to looking at it from an angle. Appreciate you having and posting those and comments.

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmm that’s a good point.

Built this kitchen months ago now. I assume the stile is 1.5: so I guess the end panel could not be 1” or the stile would have to be 2”. If a 2” style then 1” would work with 3/4 prefinished inside padded out with 1.4 mdf. I just feel like I remember the panel being 1” but that’s impossible. Maybe it’s the miter wrapped portion to create the cab depth for the 1” doors. That’s it the 1.5: stile is like 1.125 miter wrapped to a 3/4 panel.

Final answer.


f
thanks on the end panel would not have thought of that. So viewed from the front that end panel thickness is 1" if im understanding you correctly think so

[Patrick Walsh]

Pretty terrible island right...

You can say my cabs are garbage also I won’t be offended, again I just do as I’m told.

If I was doing what I wanted it wouldn’t be building box cabinets with eyebrows hinges and soft close everything slathered in cv.

But you know I don’t hate doing it’s either so it’s a compromise.

I posted two emails I dont see and rather than log off to see if they are there, thanks for the front on photo that shows the gable end proportion to the doors compared to looking at it from an angle. Appreciate you having and posting those and comments.

[Warren Lake]

im always going over all stuff in my mind. im looking at others work, im thinking about my own stuff. Asking those questions we cover some other aspects. The burried magnet, okay ive done that. Then magnet strength and door bumper thickness are aspects. Im typing to you and cant read your last email its not there. Sorry to be criticizing but thanks on all the answers felt better when you said someone else did the island seeing the first shot.

[Patrick Walsh]

As I said it might hurt if I had anything to do with it. On the other hand if I was dumb enough to orient the panels that way I’d deserve it.

Plus when I first saw that island the upside down panels were the first thing I noticed. It’s kinda funny as the shop that subbed us the paint portion kept the walnut portion of the job in house. When i showed up on site and saw that island all I could do was shake my head and think “great that kitchens botched now”..


im always going over all stuff in my mind. im looking at others work, im thinking about my own stuff. Asking those questions we cover some other aspects. The burried magnet, okay ive done that. Then magnet strength and door bumper thickness are aspects. Im typing to you and cant read your last email its not there. Sorry to be criticizing but thanks on all the answers felt better when you said someone else did the island seeing the first shot.

[J.R. Rutter]

JR if you dont warranty anything over that length why not just step up to thicker material for those longer doors, its not going to wiggle and its more stable.

Well, I'm not building the cabinets, just supplying doors. I'll build whatever they want.

[Martin Wasner]

Everything we build paint grade is paint grade soft maple and mdf panels. We are thinking of switching to poplar as it seems much more stable and with the dimension vrs rough topic it seems much more flat when you receive a order.

Try buying a higher grade of soft maple first. I stopped buying the PG grade a long time ago. You pay a little bit more, but the higher yield offsets it completely and then some.

We still use soft maple for face frames and most of the paneled ends. We switched to euro beech for door parts when being painted though. Little more money, but straighter and good yield.

Poplar is going the other way in ease and quality in my opinion.

[Peter Quinn]

All the shops I've been in use rough or hit and miss depending on species, availability, timing, usually get one edge ripped on the hit and missed too presently. Hard to make doors flat using s3s, I suppose it would work for many FF's and fillers, but everything seems to go better when the process starts with flat square parts. Stock prep isn't that high of a total % of labor on a given job, so its chasing marginal stuff. Just ripping parts to width from prepped lumber can lead to bows and warping, seems better to do that while stock is still a bit fat? I worked at a place where we flattened and milled stuff for other shops occasionally, it was always interesting to talk to guys who were used to using "flatish" S3S after they used actual flat square parts. invariably it was "Wow, stuff goes together easier when we start with your stuff." I guess its what your used to?

[Art Mann]

The cabinet makers at this shop in the town where I lived as a child start with trees.

https://www.wellborn.com/d2pages.php?item=OC

[Mark Bolton]

Warren,

A waste of lumber imop..

Thing is hiddious. I like our cans quite a bit “again we designed nothing” so I’m notbtooting my own horn.


I honestly dont know that I find anything hideously wrong with the "upside down" cathedral on the island. The notion of cathedral up has been a faith-based convention for years (everything must be looking upwards). A lot of the geometry of furniture and cabinet making (not that these boxes have any shape or form to the exterior) is complemented by orienting cathedrals down.

The sad fact is that 99.9% of the consumers out there in this day and age really dont care, dont know, dont care to know, and as horrific as it sounds, if their checks clear, it is what it is. If your the type thats going to drive a cabinet-sentric (sp) stake in the ground on principal thats great if you have the work to show them to the door.

Working to someone elses standard is never fun but at times it pays the bills.

Nothing in that project overwhelmingly jumps out at me as repulsive. If someone has some need to tear it to shreds thats easily gained. If you delivered what you were asked and got paid, and made money, and didnt feel like to horrifically compromised your moral integrity as it pertains to wood I say great work.

[Warren Lake]

cathedrals always point up, thats a basic like a number of other things.

Ive been in the homes of a number of trained in europe guys looked at all their furniture and spent alot of time with them over the years. See the same details in all of them trained in Germany no what area or type of shop they did their apprenticeship.

[Mark Bolton]

cathedrals always point up, thats a basic like a number of other things.

Ive been in the homes of a number of trained in europe guys looked at all their furniture and spent alot of time with them over the years. See the same details in all of them trained in Germany no what area or type of shop they did their apprenticeship.

Again, you speak to a belief in a taught tradition. Its just that simple. Its regurgitation as opposed to looking at things differently. There are numerous really cool pieces out there that compliment cathedral down.

If you default yourself to that across the board and allow no exception then so be it. You'll likely be in the dust one day, or maybe already are. The world is moving fast. Stodgy tradition is imperative to keep us grounded but its not the overwhelming and unquestionable guiding force. As already stated the sad guiding force in this day an age is consumerism over design. You're going to have to deal with it, or die. One of the two will come true. Take your pick.

[Patrick Walsh]

Pretty funny where this headed.

I’m in the boat “if the check clears” I’ll make you whatever you want provided it isn’t absalute actual garbage that will destroy my reputation. But you know I work for someone so I don’t have to worry about that. I build what I’m told, the way I’m told and so long as I’m payed on time every two weeks and have at least 52 payed weeks a year work I could care less.

As soon as work gets scarce giving a hoot about what your building and how goes right out the window imop. At least it does to me.

[Warren Lake]

sorry you didnt know Mark cathedrals always point up. Patrick said it looks like crap not me. Upside down is wrong, Patrick was right, it does look like crap.

[Warren Lake]

so can see my post so lets see if posting again shows the one before this if i log off and come back on again

[Larry Edgerton]

The sad fact is that 99.9% of the consumers out there in this day and age really dont care, dont know, dont care to know, and as horrific as it sounds, if their checks clear, it is what it is. If your the type thats going to drive a cabinet-sentric (sp) stake in the ground on principal thats great if you have the work to show them to the door.



405042

I agree. I use this as an example. Although technically interesting I consider it one of the ugliest things I have ever built. But the design is not mine and it paid well, enough that I could take a summer off and do things that I enjoy. So, although at times I have refused commissions that I figured would damage my reputation, sometimes reality is a cruel mistress. I just kept thinking about fishing...........

[Larry Edgerton]

sorry you didnt know Mark cathedrals always point up. Patrick said it looks like crap not me. Upside down is wrong, Patrick was right, it does look like crap.

Unless an interior designer insists they point down.........

[Martin Wasner]

Unless an interior designer insists they point down.........


What if they are at the top and bottom?

[Mark Bolton]

405042

I agree. I use this as an example. Although technically interesting I consider it one of the ugliest things I have ever built. But the design is not mine and it paid well, enough that I could take a summer off and do things that I enjoy. So, although at times I have refused commissions that I figured would damage my reputation, sometimes reality is a cruel mistress. I just kept thinking about fishing...........

This is actually comforting to me as my significant other and I recently took one of the first vacations I have had in perhaps 15-20 years and of all things as 50 year olds we opted to go to Disney world. I have fond memories of riding the spinning tea cups.

We all do what we have to do. I understand Warrens point that there are "suppose" to be some unwavering standards. You dont put your underwear on outside your pants. Thats a good standard. Cathedrals up, as someone with an art background, just makes me want to point them down and make it work.

Im no master but Ive been doing this type of crap for 30+ years and one of my biggest pet peeves are the people who say "because thats the way Ive always done it" or "because thats the way I was taught". They forge ahead for a lifetime on a fixed plane. Meanwhile design, technology, and I guess life.. , passes you by. Harkening back to a time of horrifically dangerous tooling, age old practices, and fixed standards, is fine. We all stick to standards (underpants go under your pants). But...

Is what it is. When you have to cover the overhead of your own shop a lot of the stakes in the ground become easily shifted.

[Mark Bolton]

sorry you didnt know Mark cathedrals always point up. Patrick said it looks like crap not me. Upside down is wrong, Patrick was right, it does look like crap.

Patrick may well have said it looks like crap because we've all been taught/told that they point up. I have no idea. My point is to be willing to challenge convention. Its both painful and pleasurable when your in business because a customer or designer presents you with a plan that may look reprehensible to you at first glance but then your consideration for a warm meal in your belly or to pay your shops taxes for the year settles an air of diplomacy over you. Maybe it leads to you kicking the doors off the hinges in refusal to compromise your "cathedrals up" on a profitable job, or maybe it leads to a relationship with an outside the box thinker that makes you a millionaire?

As with everything. Take your pick.

[Mel Fulks]

Cathedrals. In looking at full page glossy color ad pics for American top tier antiques they are shown both ways. Sideboards are are the best survey subjects, having lots of veneer square footage .

[Mark Bolton]

Cathedrals. In looking at full page glossy color ad pics for American top tier antiques they are shown both ways. Sideboards are are the best survey subjects, having lots of veneer square footage .

Just my $0.02 and I have book shelves devoted to how things have been done traditionally but nothing should be looked at any "way". You might make comment to the work presented that typically cathedrals go in some given direction. But to utterly disable yourself due to some neurotic "tick" with regards to any design detail is to me simply dangerous. Some part of me wishes these standards were through and through because it would speak to a standard I could rely upon for revenue. But the simple fact is If I become one of these stodgy stalwarts, I will have an ever shrinking base of customers to support my business who think Im incapable of adaptation.

[Brian Holcombe]

Use vertical grain and you dont have to worry which way it points. :D

I had a conversation a while back about my shoji making and tradition, it was a concern that I did not point the boards to the right as that is the traditional method. I use VG boards and hadn't given the direction any consideration beyond the practical. I went ahead and 'corrected' it on follow up work, but I still don't quite see it as being correct.

[Bill Space]

I never thought about the proper orientation of cathedrals in wood, but I have seen a lot of mountains in my time, and it just seemed natural to me to orient them in the same fashion as the mountain ranges appear in my memory...pointed up...

[Jim Becker]

Of course...between the mountains are valleys... :) :D

[Bill Space]

Of course...between the mountains are valleys... :) :D

ROFL...Deep insight for sure. :cool:

[Mark Bolton]

Of course...between the mountains are valleys... :) :D

The root of it all. Dont ignore negative space lol. Smart man

[mreza Salav]

Curious what's the trend in your area? Here almost all (if not all) new homes get those modern style kitchen, at the higher end they are acrylic or lacquer over falt slabs. I find they are a lot more easier to build, required minimum amount of labor (at least skilled worker) and probably have the most profit for shops too.
As I said, I have been to a local shop (or factory should I say) that has replaced all its fully automated machines with 4-5 of these monster machines that take multiple sheets on one side and spew out ready doors on the others. The only manual work I saw was workers putting together boxes and hardware.

[Patrick Walsh]

I agree they are much less work if your setup for them as you describe and maybe even if your not but not by much if not.

We just finished a inset slab style kitchen, small to medium or normal. It took two guys exactly 11 days start to finish not including paint. So that’s 96 man hrs..

The kitchen prior was also slab style full overlay and painted with 80% conversion varnish. Our painter had a nightmare of a time getting the paint to lay down without orange peel and or particulate in the paint. 80% is very high gloss and it shows everything including the scratch pattern from sanding between coats with 320 bellow.

I can’t tell our painter nothing and all he wants to shoot is cv I suspect cuz it’s dead easy to use but I suspect cv is not the way a high gloss kitchen is achieved hence why they are called European laquer or Italian laquer. I’m sure it’s all done by machines but I’m positive it’s not done with cv unless there is some thing I don’t know.

But anyway the paint job took forever and cost a fortune but the kitchen build is a bit faster. I’d say it saves maybe three days as you don’t have to make five panel doors or end panels but that would be it if even that. Maybe only two to be honest.

I
Curious what's the trend in your area? Here almost all (if not all) new homes get those modern style kitchen, at the higher end they are acrylic or lacquer over falt slabs. I find they are a lot more easier to build, required minimum amount of labor (at least skilled worker) and probably have the most profit for shops too.
As I said, I have been to a local shop (or factory should I say) that has replaced all its fully automated machines with 4-5 of these monster machines that take multiple sheets on one side and spew out ready doors on the others. The only manual work I saw was workers putting together boxes and hardware.

[Steve Clardy]

I always ordered lumber skip planed 2 sides and SLR. That way I cut pick and choose, and have my glueups thick enough to surface down to 13/16 or 3/4.
I ordered my face frame material to size though.

[J.R. Rutter]

I suspect cv is not the way a high gloss kitchen is achieved hence why they are called European laquer or Italian laquer.

Acrylic urethane and cut and buff like an automotive paint correction.

I'm not set up for it at all, and this was the first finish I ever sprayed, but it turned out OK. Amboyna burl veneer was fun, too...

https://i.imgur.com/rZJ8Grn.png

https://i.imgur.com/2H0Mv4t.png

[Patrick Walsh]

That’s nice.

I have seen our finisher shoot laquer and I thought the same “Italian Laquer”.

When I was told he was having issues and he was using cv for a high gloss finish I thought much the same.

You know for whatever reason cv is all the guy wants to spray.

I dint know if it’s time between coats or what but it’s something about cv as he really beats his head against the wall and pitches a fit if you suggest he spray anything else.

I don’t know maybe the fumes just got to his brain and or he is dumb as a pile of bricks. Maybe both?

[Jim Becker]

Conversion varnish is the choice for most projects because of durability. Some of the 2K finishes will probably eclipse that, but CV is durable stuff once it's chemically cured. Lacquer doesn't even compare...but is a lot easier to polish for sure.

---
JR...that thang is darn beautiful! Shiny!!!!

[Julie Moriarty]

Anyway, I have concluded it must be impractical for a pro to mill his own lumber to be used in making cabinets, unless possibly if it is a high end (read very expensive) installation. Just seems like it would be much more efficient time wise to buy demensioned lumber and “just get it done”.

Curious to hear how close I am to hitting the target with this conclusion.

Bill
When I was up north and buying rough lumber from a hardwood store I saw a lot of pros in there. Mind you the wood was already mill sawn but still needed further milling if it was ever to become a cabinet. I was told about 80% of their sales came from pros.

[Mark Bolton]

That may well be the case if they were needing some odd ball stuff or a small footage fill-in. There is no pro-shop out there, that isnt doing boutique work, that can profitably mill from dead rough. Its no to say we all dont do it when we have to. We recently fell a few hundred feet short on a large job and our only source for a small quantity of material to finish was from a source that didnt offer surfacing or straightline rip. So we brought it in dead rough. We knew it was going to be a nightmare before we brought it in which was good because it was in fact a nightmare.

Its one thing to need to pick through and flip flop boards, stand back and scratch your chin pondering visual pleasure of the layout. But its another to be running even fairly standard high end work where you run parts and of course reject a fair number of parts for color or grain but your pretty much building saleable product.

[Art Mann]

Not true!. Please refer to post number 57.


There is no pro-shop out there, that isn't doing boutique work, that can profitably mill from dead rough.

[Steve Clardy]

That may well be the case if they were needing some odd ball stuff or a small footage fill-in. There is no pro-shop out there, that isnt doing boutique work, that can profitably mill from dead rough. Its no to say we all dont do it when we have to. We recently fell a few hundred feet short on a large job and our only source for a small quantity of material to finish was from a source that didnt offer surfacing or straightline rip. So we brought it in dead rough. We knew it was going to be a nightmare before we brought it in which was good because it was in fact a nightmare.

Its one thing to need to pick through and flip flop boards, stand back and scratch your chin pondering visual pleasure of the layout. But its another to be running even fairly standard high end work where you run parts and of course reject a fair number of parts for color or grain but your pretty much building saleable product.

I used almost exclusively rough lumber for 17 years in my cabinet and staircase shop.

[Patrick Walsh]

You know I’m not sure how much a profit we turn but we just ordered all 5/4 rough to make our next kitchens doors with.

Sadly we have been having issues with doors moving “warping” and the panel pulling from the stiles and rails.

I think I’m gonna have to cover all bases this job. Pins only top and bottom and panels sized properly with spaceballs.

We will still build this project on schequal even bouldingndoors from rough. But you know it all adds up over a year. You win some and you loose some, or rather I think you make what you need to then you loose so you had better be finding ways to get ahead and milling lumber for kitchen cabinets is not gettting ahead.

I couldn’t have been sold in this a few years ago when I was new to the trade and it’s not what I would do if I was building boutique cabinets but I’m not and most aren’t..

[Martin Wasner]

Starting from rough isn't going to do anything from keeping lumber from moving.

There's no old growth being used. Growth rings are a mile apart. Of course it'll be unstable.

[peter gagliardi]

If you want truly flat material, with at least a reasonable expectation of flat product when done, I believe you need to start with rough material.
That’s not to say you can’t get fairly flat stock pre-roughed from a supplier, but it makes mediocre product generally speaking.
I have bought a little bit, and in EVERY single case, I can get a flatter more consistent product by hand.
I OWN my company, and I have a vested interest in making a profit. I also have a desire to put out product that won’t come back on me.
25 + years, no warped door calls. I know, I must be doing something wrong.
We may not be “profitable” in the eyes of some business people, but we have a pretty well equipped shop, compared to many, we do not get callbacks, and we all can eat every day.
I can live with that.
Pre rough milled material is ok for flooring and running trim, that’s about it at our shop.

[Brian Holcombe]

A cabinet shop might go out of business doing it this way but I process material for furniture taking an approach which minimizes reaction movements.

I plan my major millwork for any project ahead of the project by a few weeks (if possible) so that I can work the material in a few stages. First stage is a rough breaking down, from rough lumber to rough part dimensions (so long as they're oversized for further processing). Wait a period of time, then move into surfacing, references then dimension. Once they're at dimension I want to process through the project quickly because often enough I find the final form retains the wood's flatness if I did my design work well enough.

Certain projects just don't call for it and I can move from rough to finished in one day but the parts are always straighter if I give them time between stages of work.

[Patrick Walsh]

Peter you know I did not read back in the thread and my response was not directed at you or anyone who does not agree with me. It was just my oppinion.

You know there are always a million variables and I can’t disagree that rough would be best. If it was my business and it was my name my choice would be the same. But it’s not so I have had to go to the dark side and do things the way another needs. At least in our shop we are not getting $1500 a lf for primed paint on site cabinetry so we just can’t build heirloom quality cabinets.

Now if I was working out of my own shop building four kitchens or rather projects a year “kitchen, vanities, library, built ins than you know I could turn a great profit and make some very high end work.

I know there are shops out there with many men that can produce a very high quality product and for whatever reason they do very very well. My former employers would use those shops and to be honest they never ever seemed to be hurting but thriving.

I think the shop I work for is aligned with a pretty shitty sector of the custom cabinet market. I think “think” we build custom cabs for corner cutting budget minded “high end projects” you know high end to you and me but not high end to high end. We also build plenty for homeowners that are really stretching to afford custom cabinets hence find their way to us as I have a feeling we are not the lowest quote but probably right in the middle..


If you want truly flat material, with at least a reasonable expectation of flat product when done, I believe you need to start with rough material.
That’s not to say you can’t get fairly flat stock pre-roughed from a supplier, but it makes mediocre product generally speaking.
I have bought a little bit, and in EVERY single case, I can get a flatter more consistent product by hand.
I OWN my company, and I have a vested interest in making a profit. I also have a desire to put out product that won’t come back on me.
25 + years, no warped door calls. I know, I must be doing something wrong.
We may not be “profitable” in the eyes of some business people, but we have a pretty well equipped shop, compared to many, we do not get callbacks, and we all can eat every day.
I can live with that.
Pre rough milled material is ok for flooring and running trim, that’s about it at our shop.

[Patrick Walsh]

I work the same in my own work. I also workmthat way “at work” when it requires. Most of the time it doesn’t. Sure do you bang your head on the wall fighting square, making a face frame here and there twice, sure.

Actually right now I’m making three counters. Two solid walnut to finish at 1.25” thick one hard maple to finsh at the same. The boss is loosing his mind that I insist the lumber be in the shop two weeks before I even mill it. Drives him even more hits that I take a week to take it from 8/4 to it’s finished 1.25”

My counters stay perfectly flat end to end with zero twist cup whatever. I watched someone make one “my boss” a week ago and it didn’t stay close to flat for even a day.

Some things you can rush, some things you can’t.

As you said ;)


A cabinet shop might go out of business doing it this way but I process material for furniture taking an approach which minimizes reaction movements.

I plan my major millwork for any project ahead of the project by a few weeks (if possible) so that I can work the material in a few stages. First stage is a rough breaking down, from rough lumber to rough part dimensions (so long as they're oversized for further processing). Wait a period of time, then move into surfacing, references then dimension. Once they're at dimension I want to process through the project quickly because often enough I find the final form retains the wood's flatness if I did my design work well enough.

Certain projects just don't call for it and I can move from rough to finished in one day but the parts are always straighter if I give them time between stages of work.

[Mel Fulks]

Of course it stays flatter and straighter. If it doesn't there is a lack of skill in the processing. Many boards straighten
imediately in reaction to removing wood from the convex side. It's a skill seldom taught any more, I think liability issues
are a big reason for that. Management scared of facing convex side. Some woods are unstable ,and skilled guys know
the qualities of their materials. Up to this point the discussion has been mainly "is it worth the trouble". "Is there any point
in trying to mill your material straight and flat", would have been a much shorter conversation.

[lowell holmes]

see this site.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rough+sawn+wood+paneling&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7gNO6-ZXhAhUPR6wKHe2_BpkQ_AUIDygC&biw=1731&bih=836

[Bill Space]

snip... Many boards straighten
imediately in reaction to removing wood from the convex side...snip

Just a question because I don't know...

The board is convex because there is either pressure on the convex side, or a pull on the concave side. (Or there was excessive blade wander when it was cut, a different issue). This assumes that there is a convex and concave side. I think there is with respect to Mel's comment.

So is it more likely that wood expands rather than contracts? And that the force exerted by expansion is likely greater than the force exerted by contraction? Seems like that would have to be the case if the wood flattened after cutting something off the convex side. Meaning that the force exerted by the wood on the convex side would lessen, and the convex side would push relatively harder and cause the resultant board to flatten.

Otherwise, why would such a thing happen?

Edit: Years ago I bought some oak and cherry from a guy I used to work with, for a great price. It was air dried and I had it kiln dried. When I got it home I passed it through my planer, just a bit, convex side up, before storing it. I guess I may have helped myself by doing this...beginners luck...:)

[Brian Holcombe]

Bill, Basically removing wood reduces tension and allows the board to relax and straighten.

[Bill Space]

Bill, Basically removing wood reduces tension and allows the board to relax and straighten.

Brian, you shifted my mind into a different gear!

If a board is cupped, it seems like the cup could be caused by a moistures difference across the thickness OR due to stresses within the wood itself.

Mel states that removing wood from the convex side of a cupped board will cause it to flatten. If that side had higher moisture content, and this was causing the cup due to wood expansion, I suppose removing some of the wood on the cupped side would reduce the force causing the cup, as Mel suggests.

Thinking further, the cup could be caused by excessive drying on one side, or excessive moisture on the other side of a board that started out flat. In either case what Mel said would hold true.

If a board were cupped due due to internal forces not related to moisture content, the reaction might be different. I don’t know if this is common. I do know that some wood has significant internal stresses.

At the end of the day, I guess the answer to the question I was trying to ask is “It depends...” :)

But I think Mel’s experience likely holds true most of the time.

[Brian Holcombe]

Sure, best to let the moisture even out before proceeding with milling. I do my heaviest operations first.

[Mel Fulks]

Bill, Like you I used to wonder why. Still don't know. But when it does not work it doesn't make the bow worse, facing on
the concave side often makes the bow worse.

[John Kee]

I could have missed this in the many responses here but does anyone use a good quality moisture meter to check all wood coming into their shop before processing? I have found properly chosen and properly dried rough wood from a good supplier to give less aggravation.

[Kevin Jenness]

I do the same as Mel, surface the convex side of a bowed board first. I can't explain why, but it works more often than not and lets me get a flat piece of greater thickness than the initial bow would suggest. It's unrelated to cupping, the bow or curve along the length may be convex on the heart or sap side of the piece.

John, I do meter incoming lumber. More importantly, I try to get it in the shop for acclimation as long as possible before using it, and like Brian I dice it up close to finished size and let it rest before further milling when possible.

I nearly always use rough or hit and miss planed material to have greater control over the results.