New Tablesaw Fence Rails?

[Andrew More]

So I'm looking for a bit of help with extending the fence on my early 90s Grizzly G1023.

Grizzly has not made a rail kit for this table saw for a number of years. Currently the saw has the original 32" rails, which I like to extend to 52" or longer. Otherwise I'm fine with the fence system, ever if it moves a bit when locking down. The rails themselves are a bit of angle iron in the back, angle iron in the front, and square stock bolted to that. I believe the square stock has been ground in some manner. It seems to me that I can just figure out the square stock, and angle iron dimensions, and have it cut to length.

Does anybody have any advice for making sure the square stock has a pretty close tolerance? Is there a particular type of steel that I should request? Is it possible to ask for it to be ground flat to further ensure it's reasonable flat.

[Walter Plummer]

Check out "Very Super Cool Tools". https://vsctools.com/

[Andrew More]

Thanks, I found him (again) after doing some more searching. He doesn't seem to spend any time discussing differences in metal square tubing stock, so I guess it's either a non-issue, or something he doesn't think about. Considering how exhausting the detail he usually goes into is, and how well the final product works, it would appear to be a non issue.

[Doug Walls]

Does anybody have any advice for making sure the square stock has a pretty close tolerance? Is there a particular type of steel that I should request?

You're probably looking for A513 Cold Drawn Seamless Square/Rectangle Tubing, Also called Mechanical Tubing.

You want to stay clear of Structural Square/Rectangle Tubing, Structural square tubing usually has rounded corners.

https://www.wheatland.com/wheatland-standard/mechanical-tubing-vs-structural-tubing/

Doug

[Wayne Jolly]

I had an old Craftsman table saw that I made new rails for. I just went to a local metal supplier and bought matching "square" tubing and angle iron (longer, of course). I even impressed myself at how accurate it was. I don't have that saw any more, but I would have matched the accuracy with the PM66 I have now.

Wayne

[Andrew More]

You're probably looking for A513 Cold Drawn Seamless Square/Rectangle Tubing, Also called Mechanical Tubing.

You want to stay clear of Structural Square/Rectangle Tubing, Structural square tubing usually has rounded corners.


Thanks, I'll see if I can find something. From what I can tell most structural square tubing has a tolerance of (1/8" X length in feet) / 5, which means a maximum deviation from straight of 0.175 or ~3/16" over the 7'. Currently my plan is to go to the local Metal Supermarkets outlet with a straight edge, and verify.

What's the issues with rounded corners please?

Also not seeing A513 outside of online dealers. Is it really that much better in terms of tolerance? I can't seem to find any specs on A513.

[Doug Walls]

What's the issues with rounded corners please?
The structural square tubing usually has the rounded corners & sometimes has a slight concave flat surface. It's also usually thicker wall material.

The mechanical square tubing has a flatter surface & the corners are more defined & square-shaped, It's usually made with thinner wall material.

Doug

[Doug Walls]

Also not seeing A513 outside of online dealers. Is it really that much better in terms of tolerance? I can't seem to find any specs on A513.

Yeah I really never fully understood all the metal specs out there!
A lot of the information on the steel's specs like (A500/A513) has to do with structural & mechanical requirements.

I usually try to get the mechanical style square tubing with the squarer corners, I've also seen it listed as architectural square tubing.

Doug

[Andrew More]

Interesting. It's true that I don't need super thick walls on the tubing, though it might help with deflection of the fence.

There are a number of specs, but really the out of true seems to be the only number that I need to be concerned about. Everything else any sort of steel should easily exceed.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I've made several "Biesemeyer" clones over the years. Use 1/4" (or 3/16") 2 X 3 for front angle, with a 14 ga 2 X 3 with tubing attached to it. The hardest part is getting tubing to be EXACTLY parallel with the angle. Since my neighbor has a Bridgeport mill, with DRO table, we drill the angle with the correct hole to tap for a 1/4-20 machine screw. Clamp angle, with a spacer between tubing and angle, then drill one hole at each end using same size drill bit. Remove angle, tap hole in the tube, and drill out these two holes in the angle to 1/4". Bolt angle and tube together, then using bit drill out rest of holes in tube. Detach angle, and drill holes in angle to 1/4". Tap holes in tube for 1/4-20 bolts

[Bruce Wrenn]

I've made several "Biesemeyer" clones over the years. Use 1/4" (or 3/16") 2 X 3 for front angle, with a 14 ga 2 X 3 with tubing attached to it. The hardest part is getting tubing to be EXACTLY parallel with the angle. Since my neighbor has a Bridgeport mill, with DRO table, we drill the angle with the correct hole to tap for a 1/4-20 machine screw. Clamp angle, with a spacer between tubing and angle, then drill one hole at each end using same size drill bit. Remove angle, tap hole in the tube, and drill out these two holes in the angle to 1/4". Bolt angle and tube together, then using first bit drill out rest of holes in tube. Detach angle, and drill holes in angle to 1/4". Tap holes in tube for 1/4-20 bolts. This way, holes in angle and tube line up exactly.

[Lisa Starr]

I just recently made a set of rails following the VSCT information for my Grizzly 1023. The new ones are 60" and I love them. As for the tubing and angle, I purchased structural and it worked just fine.

[Andrew More]

Thanks Lisa, that's exactly what I was looking for!

[Chris Parks]

If I was going to build a fence I would take a long hard look at this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pudkvHFOfk&t=55s

[Wayne Jolly]

Ingenious, but sure seems like a lot of work for an old Craftsman contractor saw.

Wayne

[Andrew More]

If I was going to build a fence I would take a long hard look at this

I've seen it, it's pure genius, but also requires a welder, which I don't currently have. If I did have one (and some skill with it) I would give serious consideration of doing exactly what he's doing there.

[Andrew More]

Did you paint them? I'm wondering what I should do getting them setup as rails to prevent rust. Paint seems like it would rub off over time with the constant motion of the fence sliding back and forth.

[Ted Reischl]

Certainly an inventive way to build a fence. That indexing on a threaded rod is pretty neat but there seems to be one drawback that I can see: Everything must be an increment of 1/16. Not all horrible but sometimes to get a sliding fit cutting spot on 1/16 may not work.

About five years ago I put a DRO on my table saw. Worth every single penny, not only in convenience but in saved lumber. That is right, saved lumber. Before the DRO I would always make a few extra parts so that if things went wrong downstream I had some exact same size pieces to work with. That is not necessary with a DRO. I do not make spares any more.

[Andrew More]

Certainly an inventive way to build a fence. That indexing on a threaded rod is pretty neat but there seems to be one drawback that I can see: Everything must be an increment of 1/16. Not all horrible but sometimes to get a sliding fit cutting spot on 1/16 may not work.

It's been a while since I watched the video, but I believe that the entire threaded rod can be rotated for exactly that reason.

Do you have a recommendation for a DRO? I must admit I seldom put on those self-adhesive tapes, since I expect to install them slightly off.

[Ted Reischl]

It's been a while since I watched the video, but I believe that the entire threaded rod can be rotated for exactly that reason.

Do you have a recommendation for a DRO? I must admit I seldom put on those self-adhesive tapes, since I expect to install them slightly off.

I am using the Wixey WR 700. I forgot to mention above that one of the other things really handy about it is that it makes cutting thin strips a breeze. The way that is done is via the incremental mode.

Yup, I saw that the entire rod could be rotated, the only problem with that is then the zero is lost not to mention one does not know exactly how much the fence will move. If a person is on a really tight budget it is a reasonable solution, otherwise I would spend an extra $120 and have some real accuracy and the ability to clamp the fence anywhere.

Digital stuff has really changed how we do things in the workshop. I have been trying to figure out a way to add a DRO to my radial arm saw setup. That is a bit challenging so far. Time to google something up on YouTube!

[Andrew More]

I am using the Wixey WR 700.
Thanks, I was looking at that one, seems pretty nice. Not sure where I would mount the connection on the fence. The old Grizzly's didn't have quite a conventional Beisemeyer style fence.


Yup, I saw that the entire rod could be rotated, the only problem with that is then the zero is lost not to mention one does not know exactly how much the fence will move. If a person is on a really tight budget it is a reasonable solution, otherwise I would spend an extra $120 and have some real accuracy and the ability to clamp the fence anywhere.

It's 1/16th per thread, so that would appear to mean that a 1/2 turn = 1/32nd, a 1/4 turn 1/64th, etc. Much more accurate than giving it little pats. You could zero out when installing a new blade, just like the DRO.

Also I don't think you'd need to do that all that often. Usually the cuts I'm making are on nice even numbers, at which point a 1/16th is plenty accurate. Not to mention the repeatability of removing the slop in the last 1/16th of an inch by always going to the same place when clamped down.

[Ted Reischl]

Thanks, I was looking at that one, seems pretty nice. Not sure where I would mount the connection on the fence. The old Grizzly's didn't have quite a conventional Beisemeyer style fence.



You might have to fabricate a piece of flat steel and do a bit of drilling and tapping. I use a unifence and that required a bit of finagling too.

The trick to thin strips is to measure a scrap piece, does not matter what it is, and then cut it in half and then put the two pieces together and measure again. The difference is how thick the saw blade is cutting which as we all know can be a bit different than the stated thickness of the blade.

Then take a clean up cut along the piece that will be used to create the strips. Select incremental mode. The gage will zero. Move it the thickness of the blade plus the thickness desired. Cut. Zero again. On the wixey this is done by toggling between incremental and absolute. Wash, rinse, repeat. Perfect strips everytime!

[Andrew More]

Good to know.

FWIW, it appears this project is on hold. The old G1023's fence system is pretty unique in a number of ways, and one of those appear to be the size of the rails. They're pretty darned close to 1 7/8" which is not a normal size of steel stock. I suspect that the manufacturer bought the stock at 2", and then ground off 1/16" from each side to ensure it was flat, but who knows. Anyway, it's off enough that 2" won't go in, and 1 3/4" is too loose. At least I had the foresight to bring the fence along with me to check the fit before buying $120 of non-returnable steel.

[Bill Sutherland]

Not sure what all this will cost you for what you are trying to do but have you looked at the Incra TS system? I have one and it has been the best addition to my shop since I installed it. A complete game changer as far as setup and repeatability is concerned. It also has router capabilities on your table saw. Something to think about.

[Pete Staehling]

Yup, I saw that the entire rod could be rotated, the only problem with that is then the zero is lost not to mention one does not know exactly how much the fence will move.
Not sure if I follow all that correctly, but if I do... You know pretty precisely how much it moves. Theoretically it moves 1/16" per turn, so 1/32" per half turn, 1/64" per 1/4 turn, and 1/128" per 1/8 turn. If there is some slop it may not be that precise, but I can see it being pretty good if well made.

EDIT:
OOPS! I see someone already pointed this out. Sorry.

[Cary Falk]

If I was going to build a fence I would take a long hard look at this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pudkvHFOfk&t=55s

That locks you into cuts in 1/16" increments. Looks like a pain/impossible to cut somethin "to fit" if the need arises. It wouldn't work for me.

[Jacob Reverb]

Not sure, but I believe my Powermatic 64A has structural steel tubing (approx. 1" x 3") for the rail that the Beisemeyer-style "Accufence" clamps to. The tubing doesn't have square corners like the mechanical tubing shown in this thread above, and it "feels" like the structural rectangular tubing I've handled. (I also weld and do some metal fab.) On mine, the only surface that's critical and needs to be really straight, as far as I can tell, is the surface facing the table saw, which the T-square of the fence bears against. FWIW in case you decide to make a new rail system...

[Marc Jeske]

OP asked - "Does anybody have any advice for making sure the square stock has a pretty close tolerance? Is there a particular type of steel that I should request? Is it possible to ask for it to be ground flat to further ensure it's reasonable flat."


Few months ago I spoke w the Gentleman at VSCT.

My main question was - How difficult it would be to find suitable square tube ... and will I be spending $ at a Machine shop.

He never addressed that question in his otherwise thorough info.

Turns out it's not really a problem.

Surprisingly, it is easy to find suitable quality tube, AND it does NOT need Machining.

Remember, it is more the cross sectonal uniformity that matters... if it is not perfectly straight, you tweak that when tightening the bolts to the angle... no problem.

Other sources also don't talk much about getting a super perfect milled piece either... So with all my research on this question it is not a problem.

Lastly, the VSCT guy says that with his UHMW or whatever exactly he makes them from "buttons" get along well w a powder coated surface.. not needing bare steel.

Marc

https://vsctools.com/diy-guide-rails/

[Marc Jeske]

I was just looking into this for a future project.. so I have gone no further.

And I have no more detail on EXACTLY what kind of tube... hot, cold, ASTM anything..

But summarized it will NOT be a huge problem nor expense for the rect tube portion of the system.

That's all that I myself wanted to confirm for now, and I am comfortable I got the right answer.

Marc

[Andrew More]

I got a quote of ~$110 USD at local metal supplier for 2 pieces of angle iron + 1 1/2" tube stock all 86" long.

[glenn bradley]

Good to know.

FWIW, it appears this project is on hold. The old G1023's fence system is pretty unique in a number of ways, and one of those appear to be the size of the rails. They're pretty darned close to 1 7/8" which is not a normal size of steel stock. I suspect that the manufacturer bought the stock at 2", and then ground off 1/16" from each side to ensure it was flat, but who knows. Anyway, it's off enough that 2" won't go in, and 1 3/4" is too loose. At least I had the foresight to bring the fence along with me to check the fit before buying $120 of non-returnable steel.

My original Beis had a 30" rip capacity. It was too small most of the time. I shifted the tube once set of screws to the right and got 40" of rip which was enough most of the time. Zero cost option ;-)

[Justin Sanchez]

Thanks everybody. This is a big help. I think I'm going w/ the 30" fence.

[duke bryant]

Accuracy of mounting the rectangular tube to front angle is adjustable on every Bies clone I’ve seen, drill and tap the rectangular tube for 1/4 20 (thicker tubing gives more metal for threads) and then make the corresponding holes in L front rail oversized to 5/16 or so.

when you mount tube to front rail you have a little wiggle room to line it up.

as for mounting the tap, every bies I have seen or built had an adjustable cursor.

I painted the rails, and yes paint does come off due to wear.

duke