Deep Frame-and-Panel question

[Steve Wurster]

Hey all,

I'm designing some cabinets, and I need some advice for what I'm calling a "deep" frame and panel setup. In the picture below I show the panel effectively behind the frame (ignore the parts without any panel). This allows for a full 3/4 "shadow" (or reveal, or whatever you want to call it) between the frame pieces and the panel itself. I really like this look, but I'm not sure of the best way to achieve this.

For those that follow Marc Spagnuolo (The Wood Whisperer), this is overall very similar to the style he went with for a desk that he made recently. In his design he face glued the rails and stiles to the plywood. I don't know if I like that; I'd be way too worried about wood movement, as even at 3" wide those rails and stiles are going to move some, and fully face gluing those to the plywood seems to be asking for trouble.

I wondered if I could screw the plywood to the frame pieces from the inside, elongating the screw holes in the plywood to allow for movement of the solid wood. I also wondered if I could only partly glue the frame pieces to the plywood (e.g. glue only in the middle of the stile), thereby allowing for movement of the parts of each piece that aren't glued.

I cannot think of any other options, but I'm sure those on this forum will have some suggestions for me. Thanks!

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[John TenEyck]

You won't have any problems if you make the plywood about 1-1/2" larger all around than the frame opening. Glue it in with a few screws or brads. Why is this OK? Think about any cross grain joint, like a or half lap. The depth of those is often much greater than 1-1/2" and they last for generations.

John

[Jim Becker]

Make the rails and stiles thicker so you can groove them normally for the panels...there's no law that says you have to use 3/4" thick material for those components. Adding a half inch to that allows for a 1/4" groove with 1/4" of material behind the panel. I'm using fractional here, but the actual size doesn't matter...the concept is to just make the components proportional to the need for your design.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, make the rails and stiles thick enough to use a 1/4” thick plywood panel inset the 3/4” you desire.

You can either leave it floating or glue it in.....Rod

[johnny means]

Gluing and nailing frames onto plywood is pretty standard construction for architectural work. In fact, many frame and panel doors are made this way. Movement won't be a problem.

[Bradley Gray]

I agree with John and Johnny -not enough wood movement to cause a problem.

[David Stone (CT)]

Like the others say, there isn't a need to worry about wood movement in this situation...

You refer to this as a "cabinet," which makes me think it may be some sort of built-in or maybe a kitchen cabinet. If so, another option would be to flip the script, and imagine this as an exercise in building a box out of 3/4 hardwood ply, to which the rail and stiles are then applied on top almost as decorative details (as opposed to having them supply the actual structure). You could handle the legs in this fashion also, in which case the box can be a dirt simple plywood carcase. But I would probably lean toward making the legs in their full dimensions and have them be structural, with joinery to connect them to the ply/solid sandwiches that make up the sides and back. ....Some form of this hybrid approach could be easier to construct than a real frame and panel, and has the virtue of giving you nice, clean interior surfaces, which is important if the inside is going to be seen and used.

[glenn bradley]

Although I would do it as Jim and Rod suggest I agree that tacking 1/4" ply to that assembly should be no problem.

[Steve Wurster]

Thanks for the input everyone.

[Jim Dwight]

I copied the look of a purchased vanity in my bathroom when I built a floor to ceiling storage cabinet. It has a frame that is about 1.75 inches thick on the face but on the cabinet I made that is achieved by gluing thick members with a rabbet onto 3/4 plywood leaving a "shelf" about an inch wide. I don't know that I would have ever designed it this way but it works. No issue with expansion and contraction of the solid wood glued to the plywood. I did not expect any issue. The doors are shaker style with a frame of 3/4 wood and a panel of plywood. The plywood is glued to the frame. No issues. The cabinet is painted so I just used softwood and softwood plywood. But I used a good stain blocking primer and finish. No issues. The thicker pieces were framing lumber cut and glued up.

I mention the materials because it was higher moisture content - so more strinkage - and still no issues.