Question about Jointers--Rather long

[Karl Laustrup]

I'm getting ready to fork out some $$$$ for a new jointer. I need some advice, pros, cons about two different ones to which I have narrowed my search.

I currently have a 6" Craftsman which has served me well. It's just to small to do what I require in using the lumber culled from my property. The majority of my wood is anywhere from 7" up to 12" wide. I also like to use wide stock whenever possible.

I have currently narrowed my selection to the Oliver 10" or the Bridgewood 12" jointers. If there are other selections in these sizes and in the price range of these, please let me know as I do want to have as many options as possible. Whatever brand or size I purchase I have determined that it will have a Byrd Shelix cutting head, or similar, so other brands of jointers have to have that option available.

While I understand the value of used old iron, I have neither the means nor the time necessary to rebuild such a unit, so either new or perhaps a very well maintained and working used unit is what I'd be looking for.

I would also like to hear about sales and service from the places from which I would purchase this equipment.

Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Karl

[tod evans]

karl, this may not be the answer your looking for, then again it may save you some bucks? i have not owned or used a joiner in over 20 years. before i got a slider i used a plywood jig to straightline rough lumber and today if i need to straightline a board longer than my slider i use the bandsaw. i have no problem whatsoever getting glueline rips off of the tablesaw (most are done on my old delta). the last joiner i saw in a production shop was used exclusively for rabbiting assembled sashes to clear the stop.......and even this fellow stopped using the joiner over 20yrs ago. imho the only use for a joiner may be to smooth the bandsawn faces of tapered legs? but personally i go straight to the edge sander... this is only food for thought and my opinion so please take it with a grain of salt:) tod

[Dave Richards]

Tod, I'm curious as to how you go about creating a flat face on your stock. The other day I was looking at some 8" wide cherry I bought and thinking how I'd hate to have to rip it to get it to fit on my 6" jointer.

I know I could make a sled for my planer and shim the stock so it can't move during planing but if I have a lot of stock to do, this seems extremely time consuming since I would have to shim each piece differently.

Maybe this is what you do though?

[Neil Bosdet]

Have you checked out Grizzly? They have a 12" with spiral head for $3800. http://www.grizzly.com/products/G9860ZX

If you can get by with an 8" unit they have one with spiral head for only $995! http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0593 This is the unit I'd purchase if I had any reason to replace my 12" General.

[tod evans]

dave, i simply run it through the planer to parallel the sides. if a board is to be a panel it will be trapped, if it is a drawer componant it will be held in place by dovetails, same for carcass componants. if a fellow takes the time to joint a board then plane it the internal stresses of the wood will cause it to warp yet again, sometimes within an hour or two.... in everything i build i try to use a combination of joints and glue to restrain the wood so as to maintain the finished shape, so to have a board parallel to cut joints in is what i`m looking for out of my machines. in essence if i where to take two pieces of 12/4 oak and face joint/plane one and just plane the other they would both be undergoing the same stresses and would move accordingly. i can`t say one board is going to react differently than the other but i can say i have substantially less time in one board over the other.. again this is only food for thought..tod

[Jim Becker]

Tod, once you work with truly flat lumber, you'll never go back. You cannot get truly flat lumber without a jointer or a whole lot of work with handplanes or klugy jigs to use with a planer. While jointers to process edges, that's not their only function...flattening the face before thicknessing is even more important in their function. I understand your comments about movement after milling, but that's often because of taking things all the way in one session. One has to let things equalize after milling "close, but not quite" and then take it to final dimension a few days later once the wood calms down. Being careful to take equal amounts of material from either side of a rough board also is important to the process. That said, everyone has a way of working that is best for them. If you are happy with your results, that's what is most important!!

Karl, I think you'll be happy with either of your choices--and I'm a believer in wide jointers. I did personally choose to go the combo J/P route for space savings and identical capacities, but that's a little higher cost point than the machines you are looking at.

[tod evans]

jim, i`ve been at this woodbutchery for almost 30yrs, i`ve used boards straight out of s4s machines, off the jointer and straight out of the planer so to insinuate i`m an uneducated novice is unfair. i only stated what i have found to be productive in my shop. so as i said please take it with a grain of salt. tod

[Dennis McDonaugh]

karl, this may not be the answer your looking for, then again it may save you some bucks? i have not owned or used a joiner in over 20 years. before i got a slider i used a plywood jig to straightline rough lumber and today if i need to straightline a board longer than my slider i use the bandsaw. i have no problem whatsoever getting glueline rips off of the tablesaw (most are done on my old delta). the last joiner i saw in a production shop was used exclusively for rabbiting assembled sashes to clear the stop.......and even this fellow stopped using the joiner over 20yrs ago. imho the only use for a joiner may be to smooth the bandsawn faces of tapered legs? but personally i go straight to the edge sander... this is only food for thought and my opinion so please take it with a grain of salt:) tod

Tod, do you buy all your wood sanded four sides? The real advantage ot having a jointer the ability to buy rough stock, not making one straight edge. You face joint one side to get a reference for dimensioning the other three sides with the table saw or planer.

Jim, what's up with your hair?

[Jim Becker]

Jim, what's up with your hair?

That's a hat, Dennis... ;) Rabbit. Russian. 750 Robles (about $25) Extremely warm...actually too warm for here. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26845)

[Dennis McDonaugh]

That's a hat, Dennis... ;) Rabbit. Russian. 750 Robles (about $25) Extremely warm...actually too warm for here. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26845)
I missed that thread Jim. Great trip.

[Michael Gabbay]

Karl - I personally like the Bridgewood products. One problem you might have is with shipping. The 12" is a beast. I think it weighs around 1000 pounds.

Either way moving from a 6" to a 10" or 12" is a HUGE Gloat! :eek: Keep us informed of the purchase.

Mike

[Karl Laustrup]

Thanks for the answers so far guys.

Jim B. I hadn't even thought of a combo machine. I was planning on a new planer [15" Yorkcraft with Shelix head] at the same time as the jointer. Perhaps I should rethink this and maybe a combo would be in the price range of the jointer and planer together.

Neil. Thanks for the info on Grizzly. It's the same price as the BW and I'll have to look into it further to see if it has all the features of the BW.

Michael. Yeah, the shipping is going to be a headache. Almost 1200 lbs. for the BW. The Griz is right at 1000 as I recall and the 10" Oliver is between 900 and 1000. I figure I'm looking at around $300+ for shipping dependent on which one and where it's coming from to get to Wisconsin.

Now I'm going to check out combo machines. I am working with a finite space and an 80+ inch bed on these big jointers takes up substantial room. Any ideas on a combo?

Karl

[Brad Olson]

If you can afford it go with a MiniMax combo. I have a friend with one (16", but I think they also make a 12 or 14") and it is a great space saver.

Unless you do production planing and jointing the changeover time is not an issue.

Also you can get a Byrd helical head for and addition $1500 or so depending on which model you end up with.

My friend has the Bryd head on his MiniMax and the DC is louder than the jointer/planer AND it can joint wicked curly maple without NO tearout.

[Steven Wilson]

Take a look at the MiniMax FS35 Smart. It's a 14" Jointer/planner with a Tersa cutterhead (straight knives that take very little time to change). I have a MiniMax CU350 combo machine that basically has the FS35 as the jointer/planner section. The performance of this part of my machine has been excelent. I find myself using older knives for initial work and then use a newer set of knives to finish up with. Blade changes are quick and the machine has more than enough power (4.8hp). You can also mount a horizontal mortiser if you want. You might also look at Hammer.

[Dan Larson]

Perhaps I should rethink this and maybe a combo would be in the price range of the jointer and planer together.
Karl, definitely look into this option. Not everyone likes the idea of a J/P combo machine, but it has worked well for me. MiniMax makes a great machine for the money. The Rojek machines are a little less spiffy than the MM, but are at a lower price point and very nice in their own right. If you're willing to drive a few hours, you're more than welcome to take my Rojek J/P for a test drive.

Dan

[Paul B. Cresti]

Thanks for the answers so far guys.

Jim B. I hadn't even thought of a combo machine. I was planning on a new planer [15" Yorkcraft with Shelix head] at the same time as the jointer. Perhaps I should rethink this and maybe a combo would be in the price range of the jointer and planer together.

Neil. Thanks for the info on Grizzly. It's the same price as the BW and I'll have to look into it further to see if it has all the features of the BW.

Michael. Yeah, the shipping is going to be a headache. Almost 1200 lbs. for the BW. The Griz is right at 1000 as I recall and the 10" Oliver is between 900 and 1000. I figure I'm looking at around $300+ for shipping dependent on which one and where it's coming from to get to Wisconsin.

Now I'm going to check out combo machines. I am working with a finite space and an 80+ inch bed on these big jointers takes up substantial room. Any ideas on a combo?

Karl

Karl,
I will throw in my two & 1/2 cents. If you are looking at both a jointer and planer IMHO a european combo is the way to go. No where can you get the quality of these machines, assuming you buy the right brand ;), in single machines for the same price you can get for the combo's. For me, the ability to face joint boards 16" in width has been invaluable. I can even glue up mantel tops, then face joint and plane them all on the same machine. In addition and a BIG ADDITION most of these machines have the ability to add on a horizontal slot mortiser! So you can get three high quality machines for the price of one. Now remember you can sell you three curent machines, if you have them, (jointer, planer, mortiser) to help with the cost. Add to this the saved space, tersa knives (simply the best out there anywhere period!) no snipe ...and you will be happy beyond belief. Oh did I mention a specific brand yet? :)

[Barry O'Mahony]

FWIW I have the Grizzly and like it alot. The parallelagram design is superior to those that cantilever the tables off of dovetailed ways.

[Dan Larson]

Oh did I mention a specific brand yet? :)

Paul, does MiniMax have you on retainer? In not, they really should!!!

Just teasing, of course.:D I realize that you're just a very satisfied customer. Although I don't own any of their equipment, I'm impressed with the machines of theirs that I've had a chance to check out in person.

[Richard Wolf]

I'll vote for the MM combo also. The only down side to the combo is the lenght of the table is a little shorter than there F1 jointer. If that is of no concern, the combo is a great choice and so is MM.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

Given that you have stated that a planer is also on the list, definitely look at a combo J/P. I absolutely love mine and although it stays setup for jointer mode most of the time, switchover takes about...oh...a minute and a half, including cranking the planer table up by hand. (motorized tables are nice, but add some "ching ching" to the cost)

[tod evans]

[quote=Dennis McDonaugh]Tod, do you buy all your wood sanded four sides? The real advantage ot having a jointer the ability to buy rough stock, not making one straight edge. You face joint one side to get a reference for dimensioning the other three sides with the table saw or planer.

dennis, i buy my wood wholesale and in the rough. it is not uncommon for me to go through 500-1000 bf per month. a large percentage of that is made into radiused mouldings, the remainder is used for furniture and custom millwork. as i stated earlier i have used lumber straight out of an s4s moulder and although my method is somewhat slower than an s4s machine i do get identical results in far less time than i have been able to achieve with any other method. i understand the common use of the jointer, i was taught to use one early in my life, i have just learned through others experience,as well as my own that by and large face jointing lumber is a waste of time and equipment. i realize that most of us have been taught to use a jointer but if we take the time to tour or work in a production enviorment it is very seldom that you will see a jointer in use for the simple reason it isn`t necessary. boards that are unduely twisted are cut into smaller pieces, boards that remain straight out of the machines are milled. for what it`s worth? tod

[tod evans]

karl, sorry for disrupting your thread:) imho minimax is good stuff, i own lots of their equipment. tod

[John Miliunas]

Karl, with our recent email exchanges, the thought of a combo machine had not entered into my pea brain! Doh!!!:o Knowing your shop layout and knowing it does require some mobility options, the combo would indeed be a real, real good alternative, IMHO!:) The only "drawback" would be the shorter bed length but, that would only affect you if you were jointing real long boards.It would indeed be a real space saver and give you that awesome ability for jointing wide boards. I think these guys are giving you good advice here, my friend!:) :cool:

[Kent Parker]

Karl,

If your looking at combo machines also check out Hammer.

www.hammerusa.com (http://www.hammerusa.com)

I don't own one but keep getting fliers in the mail from them.

More info the better, heh :)

Kent

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul, does MiniMax have you on retainer? In not, they really should!!!

Just teasing, of course.:D I realize that you're just a very satisfied customer. Although I don't own any of their equipment, I'm impressed with the machines of theirs that I've had a chance to check out in person.
Dan,
I know you are teasing and no harm in teasing as I do my fair share :) but I feel just as strongly about the MiniMax line, their sales team and tech department.

I rely on a good portion of my income on my professional woodworking. I am a one man shop and I can have no down time and I need my machines to produce for me with no questions asked. I have had a problem here and there with my machines as all machines do have a problem or two as you work the kinks out but MM has always gone out of their way to get me back up and running. If someone says their machine is perfect then they are selling you something. These machines are of an industrial quality and require some setup by the end user. They have every type of adjustment imaginable on them ...that is why they can be so finely tuned and stay that way. The "normal" machines can not be tuned to the same degree or may not even be able to be tuned at all, you get what you get.

The current MM line up are very "basic" high quality industrial machines. They do not offer any of the fancy add ons as some other companies do but yet they continually produce flawlessly and repeatably. In my situation I could have invested more money on different fancier machines but I would not have gotten any better results. The machines can only do so much as the rest is up to the craftsman. Machines no matter how sofisticated can not design for you with human proportions in mind or the clients needs or desires. I call on my machines to provide the raw material I need to produce my creations. A piece of wood can not be any more square than 90d or any flatter than 0d ..... why pay even more for something that does the same.

Am I passionate about my machines, MM and my work ..... I will let you be the judge of that :);)

[Chris Barton]

Hi Karl,

It sounds like you have had lots of suggestions so, I won't be any different than anyone else; also consider a Robland X31 combo machine. It is a 5 in 1 machine and I have one. As far as I know I am the only person on SMC that does. I have been astounded by the capabilities of this machine. And, with a 12+" jointer and planer as well as table saw, morticer and shaper it is the bargain deal of the multifunction machines.

[Mark Singer]

[quote=Dennis McDonaugh]Tod, do you buy all your wood sanded four sides? The real advantage ot having a jointer the ability to buy rough stock, not making one straight edge. You face joint one side to get a reference for dimensioning the other three sides with the table saw or planer.

dennis, i buy my wood wholesale and in the rough. it is not uncommon for me to go through 500-1000 bf per month. a large percentage of that is made into radiused mouldings, the remainder is used for furniture and custom millwork. as i stated earlier i have used lumber straight out of an s4s moulder and although my method is somewhat slower than an s4s machine i do get identical results in far less time than i have been able to achieve with any other method. i understand the common use of the jointer, i was taught to use one early in my life, i have just learned through others experience,as well as my own that by and large face jointing lumber is a waste of time and equipment. i realize that most of us have been taught to use a jointer but if we take the time to tour or work in a production enviorment it is very seldom that you will see a jointer in use for the simple reason it isn`t necessary. boards that are unduely twisted are cut into smaller pieces, boards that remain straight out of the machines are milled. for what it`s worth? tod

For any of you who have not seen Tods' website it will quickly tell of his talent and experience. Tod is among several really experienced and knowlegeable woodworkers that have joined SMC. I have seen many large shops that don't use jointers as Tod expressed. Selecting boards based on their character is a very important part of furniture making and woodwork.
I use a jointer and I feel it is important to the way I work...but, there is more than one way to go and I am often surprised to see techniques and methods by crafstmen that are a little different...still producing excellent results. There is more than one way to go and after all experience I learn new ways all the time...that is one of the great things about woodworking...you can keep learning and have fun doing it

[Karl Laustrup]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I now have a lot to think about. Don't be surprised if I ask some very specific questions of those of you that have offered suggestions as to which machine to buy.

Now to get my pencil sharpened and start wading into the various qualities of the suggestions.

Karl

[tod evans]

karl, whatever brand of machine you buy please give thought to the tersa head, speak to folks who use them, as well as folks who have used byrds heads........either way you go it`s quite a chunk of money and hindsite is expensive. my vote goes for the tersa. please wait untill you can`t stand researching anymore before you cut a check. :) .02 tod

[Jim Becker]

karl, whatever brand of machine you buy please give thought to the tersa head, speak to folks who use them, as well as folks who have used byrds heads........either way you go it`s quite a chunk of money and hindsite is expensive. my vote goes for the tersa. please wait untill you can`t stand researching anymore before you cut a check. :) .02 tod

Good suggestion. The good news is that many of the Euro combos have Tersa either available or standard. (standard on Mini Max, for example) I LOVE my Tersa knife system...

[Dan Racette]

Karl, I too, as well as john, totally forgot about combo as a suggestion. I have a MM16 bandsaw and the service was top notch. If the future of my production would ever go up, I would like to go toward a J/P combo MM or Felder. and a Table saw/Shaper sliding combo. Both are years away.

There is a felder rep in Madison that I have spoken with and is willing to take us to see equipment. Maybe you and I and John could field trip after the holidays!

Dan

[Bruce Page]

Karl, what it the 10" Oliver going for? I can't find a price on it.

[Karl Laustrup]

Bruce the 10" Oliver is currently on sale from Sunhill for $1895. Another $765 for a shelix head and almost $400 for shipping to my little corner of the world. That would get me pretty close to the 12" BW jointer with shelix head. Or the Grizz.

Then it's a matter of service after the sale I guess because they [BW, Grizz] have pretty much the same stuff. BW fence does tilt both in and out. Not sure how many other machines do that.

I must admit that I'm now actively researching the combo arena. Even as far as a TS, mortiser, jointer, planer & shaper combo. A cabinet type saw was to be in the future, but hey........ Plus I kind of like the idea of a having a mortiser and shaper. Near as I can figure individual machines for each of these tasks would be at least as much as one combo. Especially quality machines.

Thanks again all for your input. Now I have to investigate the tersa blades. Don't know anything about them.

Karl

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Question for you combo owners. Is there any conversion time between using the planer or jointer? How long are the beds on a 16" combo machine compared to a stand alone 10-12 inch jointer?

[Roy Wall]

Question for you combo owners. Is there any conversion time between using the planer or jointer? How long are the beds on a 16" combo machine compared to a stand alone 10-12 inch jointer?

Dennis,

For a partial answer on the J/P combos.......the 16" IS 82", the 14" is 72", the 12" is 60.

But, good question....they probably varie from one FULL combo machine to another.

[Dan Larson]

Question for you combo owners. Is there any conversion time between using the planer or jointer?
It takes me about 30 seconds. Not a big deal really, but you do learn to plan your work flow in order to minimize changeovers.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

It takes me about 30 seconds. Not a big deal really, but you do learn to plan your work flow in order to minimize changeovers.

Dan, what do you have to do to make the change over? Doesn't the combo machine use the same blades for the jointer and planer?

[Dan Larson]

Dan, what do you have to do to make the change over? Doesn't the combo machine use the same blades for the jointer and planer?
Each J/P design is a little different, but most are based on the same fundamental idea. Here's the drill for my Rojek:

1. Remove jointer fence.
2. Flip up jointer tables.
3. Engage infeed roller drive.
4. Flip up dust collection hood.
5. Crank up planer bed (~100 turns of the crank on my machine.)

My description here makes the process seem more involved than it really is. It all happens pretty quickly and there are no fussy adjustments to make. I'll post some pictures this evening of the machine in the jointer & the planer configuration. It will give you a much better idea of what I'm talking about.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Thanks, Dan. I have separate jointer and planer and I'd like to get a really wide jointer so having both in the same footprint sounds good. However, I'm nowhere near systematic so I'd have to have one with an easy conversion.

[Dan Larson]

1. Remove jointer fence.
2. Flip up jointer tables.

A few pictures to illustrate the changeover from jointer to planer...

[Dan Larson]

3. Engage infeed roller drive.
4. Flip up dust collection hood.
5. Crank up planer bed (~100 turns of the crank on my machine.)

Changeover pictures continued...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Ok well here is my MM FS41 16" j/p with mortiser attachment. I will explain the change over process with words and the pictures will follow:

1) In full jointing mode
2) Slide fence all the way forward, disengage Euroguard
3) Unlock table on both sides, lift entire table
4) Flip over dust hood & reconnect hose for planning mode

Thats it folks......

[Paul B. Cresti]

Ok here is the next installment. The first picture is the digital numeric readout for the planning mode thickness, the handwheel and the table lock lever. The next picture shows the horizontal mortising unit attached to the back of the machine! Thats right folks to the back...it never needs to come off. I am in the process of making a bigger table for along with a stop system... so stay tuned.

The next picture is of the Tersa head. You will notice in the picture three segments behind the blade (look for the dark vertical lines/shadows). These three segments are three corresponding "wedges" that hold the knife in place. In order to release the knife you "tap" down on the wedge with something like a flat head screw driver and hammer. The wedge "slips down" in towards the center of the cutter head. You do this for all three wedges. Once they are all down you then slide the knife to the right. There is a small hole in the right side of the cutter block casting and the knife is then slid through this hole and free of the cutter head. You then slide the next knife in or flip the knife and use the other side. Then rotate the head and remove and replace the remaining knives as before. Now after doen with that.... you turn on the machine and centifugal force pushes those "wedges" out towards the edge of the cutter head again and locks in the knives! Congratulations you just changed your jointer/planer knives!!!
No aligning no fussing nada.......

Tersa knives where the best invention ever! I almost like them better than pasta... ok well maybe not that much;)

[tod evans]

paul, i dissagree. tersa is far better than pasta! .02 tod

[Karl Laustrup]

Dan & Paul,

Thanks for the pix and walk through of changing from jointing to planing on your respective machines. Looks pretty simple. Like even a five thumbed person like me could handle such a change over.

Thanks for the explanation of the Tersa head Paul. That is a pretty slick way to change blades. When I was reading and got to the part of just turn the machine on and they self seat and lock, I must say the first thing that popped into my brain was sharp steel flying around the shop. :eek: In the directions does it say anything about turning the machine on and then "DUCK". ;) :D

Thanks all for your input. I'm still researching and must say that I'm leaning a little more to a multi function combo machine. I.E. saw, J/P, etc.

Karl

[tod evans]

karl, here are some shots of a tersa head with a knife slid out. tod27173

27174

27175

27176

[Paul B. Cresti]

Tod,
That is the SP-1 correct? I see a air fitting there is that for the planer?
How does the segmented infeed roller work? It must be great to feed all different sizes pieces at the same time....By the way pasta is way better than a Tersa head but the Tersa head is better then noodles, potatoes and saur brautten (sp?) ;)

[tod evans]

sp1- yup, air fitting was to clean off the machine prior to shooting, remember i beat my equipment. the sp1 has a solid infeed and segmented chipbreakers so it`s fed the same as yours just able to take a bigger bite. 1/4" off a 16" piece of oak doesn`t make it grunt! i don`t know about you italians??????? the only thing better than tersa is a rare ribeye and lobster:) tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

sp1- yup, air fitting was to clean off the machine prior to shooting, remember i beat my equipment. the sp1 has a solid infeed and segmented chipbreakers so it`s fed the same as yours just able to take a bigger bite. 1/4" off a 16" piece of oak doesn`t make it grunt! i don`t know about you italians??????? the only thing better than tersa is a rare ribeye and lobster:) tod

Yea yea sure your just cleaned the machine:) ..... I was wondering why there was no dust on those kickback fingers. You have numeric readout on thickness correct? what HP? Is there a separate motor for both feeding and planning?

[Mark Singer]

The rib eye lobster and pasta is starting to sound good! I nice Pinot....That would really add...

(funny how jointer threads can turn into Emerill threads):rolleyes:

[tod evans]

paul, the main motor runs a four speed gearbox for the feed, there is a seperate motor to raise and lower the bed. the bed rollers are not powered and the main motor pulls 21 amps 220-3, i`m guessing somewhere around 9-10 hp? yes i have the numeric readout for thickness but in sillymeters! dain/rob/marco seems to have forgot that my `ol hillbilly brain only computes in inches. i haven`t called whining so i`ve just written the conversions on the wall, the readout is handy nonetheless. back to the topic at hand for karl, why don`t you pm him with dains number, i left my cell at home and don`t have it handy. karl, dain is a straight shooter and honest, all you can ask out of a person especially a sales person. tod

[Karl Laustrup]

The rib eye lobster and pasta is starting to sound good! I nice Pinot....That would really add...

(funny how jointer threads can turn into Emerill threads):rolleyes:

Yeah Mark, but I'm enjoying everything that's popping up.

I am getting hungry though. Think we'll go out for PRIME RIB tonight.

Karl