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View Full Version : Now know why I do it myself.



Dave Lehnert
02-20-2019, 11:33 PM
Always a DIY type guy but per my other post https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272039-Anyone-do-Concrete-Patio-work I decided to hire work done.
Guess it is standard practice for contractors to agree to meet at your home only to never show or hear from them ever again.
Get sick of running home after work, choking down dinner and not show up on the agreed time. My experience so far on this patio project.
Hired a guy to cut down trees. Paid him the full amount as he was loading up his equipment, did not try and get his price down. Took him over a year to come back and grind the stumps out. :confused::confused::confused:

Is it that hard, if a contractor is busy ,to just say so and not wast a customer time? I just don't get it.

Greg R Bradley
02-21-2019, 12:38 AM
I manage the technology for several local heavy construction contractors, companies that have acres full of million dollar pieces of equipment. I constantly hear about how the owners can't get any competent work done on their own houses. I have decided that I will never consider hiring another idiot to work on my house ever again. Problem is that I'm too old to do the roof myself when (or if) I get to that point.
Also, nobody under 50 is worth hiring, period!

Frederick Skelly
02-21-2019, 8:41 AM
I feel your pain Dave. It's amazing to to me.

Tom M King
02-21-2019, 9:37 AM
In 1973, I decided to build a spec house to see if it was possible to make any money. That year I hired subcontractors. I spent more time waiting for them to show up than the time they spent working. I still made money.

The next year, I decided I'd try doing everything myself. Of course, I was not the most efficient, but I was able to sell just the shell of the house. It was Much less stress doing the work myself. I ended up doing that for a living for the next 33 years, and my efficiency improved every year. Except for hiring someone to install the HVAC main units (knew there would be callbacks at some point on those, and I didn't want to do work for other people), I did everything myself with two laborers. I would start a house in the Fall, sell it in the Spring, and do what I wanted to in the Summers.

So, I still do everything myself, and now have the tools to do it.

glenn bradley
02-21-2019, 10:02 AM
I cannot get someone to come build a gazebo in the back yard. Like Dave, I get them on the phone, they talk a good story and then just vanish. Ain't it a shame there's "no work" available for some of these dead beats. Anyone who says they can't find work means they can't find something that pays for nothing and requires no skill. It may have been here or elsewhere that I told the story of my wildly successful gardener; he shows up when he's supposed to, does what he agrees to and does it consistently. He's got a waiting list.

Jim Becker
02-21-2019, 10:06 AM
I engaged three general contractors to price our home addition back in the 2007/2008 time frame. Mind you...this was a $300K+ project. Two provided detailed quotes with one going the extra mile and even engaging sub-contractors to be sure we were all on the same page. (he got the job and remains a good friend) The third GC showed up once, spent about 15 minutes poking around and gave a simple low-ball quote on one sheet of (wrinkled) paper. He was never to be heard from again when I asked for clarification about his understanding of what was involved. He was also surly and surprisingly unkempt.

Similar experience with the architects. Queried three. Two quoted. The one that got the work was interested and creative in taking my renderings and creating what would actually work. The other one had a nice quote presentation, but without any meat. He got angry when I told him I hired someone else... Go figure.

So yea...I do most of my own work because I know the contractor is reliable. :) :D Albeit weird sometimes... heh...heh...

Robert Engel
02-21-2019, 10:22 AM
Yeah I think one of the issues is there is so much work out there, if its a small job there is so much work out there they don't want to be bothered.

I've been burned many times over the years because by nature, I'm a trusting person. Kind of a naive attitude, but I try to see the good in people.

I do have 2 die hard rules:

1. Do not advance money.

Caveats: If they ask you to pay in advance for materials, I'm automatically suspicious because I feel they should have a charge account with a lumberyard. If they ask for cash to buy materials, either go with them or buy the materials yourself.

2. Do not pay until the job is done.

I'm up front right from the beginning on this. This one can be the hardest to stick with especially if you've developed a trusting relationship with a person, this can come across as you thinking they are not honest.

That said, I would never ask for a client for payment until the job is done.

3. Make them show you documents to prove they have a contractors license and are insured. IMO any good contractor would have these docs available in the glove box of his truck.

Edwin Santos
02-21-2019, 10:31 AM
I wonder if there is a mirror thread to this one on a contractor forum somewhere where the complaints are about customers and homeowners who flake out, don't pay timely (or at all), disappear after asking for a job to be re-bid with changes three times, etc, etc.
I suppose each side has its horror stories.

Matt Day
02-21-2019, 10:39 AM
I learned from being in commercial construction that you pay subcontractors on a percent complete basis. So if 10% of the tree work was stump grinding, you should have withheld that so if he flakes and didnít come back you could have hired someone else. Not to say your guy wasnít a jerk, but itís a learning experience.

I as well do as much work around the house as i can. But sometimes you do find a contractor that goes above and beyond. We moved into our house a few months ago and had 95% of the interior painted. Had 3 quotes, two at $6000+ and one at $3000. The guy who quoted at $3k was very nice, had 30 years of experience, and one very nice woman work with him, and drove an old beat up truck. We hired him and he didnít an excellent job. And I was able to trust him to be at my home alone while I picked up the kids from school and such. The other two guys drive much nicer trucks and nit picked everything like not painting the small overlap areas where the walls met the ceiling.

We found a painter that weíll be sure to use again when we redo our kitchen and paint the cabinets.

Doug Dawson
02-21-2019, 11:49 AM
I wonder if there is a mirror thread to this one on a contractor forum somewhere where the complaints are about customers and homeowners who flake out, don't pay timely (or at all), disappear after asking for a job to be re-bid with changes three times, etc, etc.

Yes, there are many. I run across them every now and then, without even looking.

Check first to find out what the customer does for a living. ;^)

Osvaldo Cristo
02-21-2019, 12:25 PM
Always a DIY type guy but per my other post https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272039-Anyone-do-Concrete-Patio-work I decided to hire work done.
Guess it is standard practice for contractors to agree to meet at your home only to never show or hear from them ever again.
Get sick of running home after work, choking down dinner and not show up on the agreed time. My experience so far on this patio project.
Hired a guy to cut down trees. Paid him the full amount as he was loading up his equipment, did not try and get his price down. Took him over a year to come back and grind the stumps out. :confused::confused::confused:

Is it that hard, if a contractor is busy ,to just say so and not wast a customer time? I just don't get it.

If you live in Brazil you would understand how luck you are! Thinks are very similar here... only five times worse.

My experience in Germany and Denmark are completely different. All my interactions there with construction workers were very professional. Oh, how different the were!

Perry Hilbert Jr
02-21-2019, 12:26 PM
MY deal with construction contractors is 1/3 when the materials show up, one third when under roof and one third when finished. Never had any one complain about that. Built houses, barns, and out buildings that way. As for a guy taking full payment and not returning, that would be a felony in some states. Some areas have good contractor licensing agencies that go after dead beat contractors. Others seem to be in favor of the contractors. I hired a contractor to tile the kitchen walls. He would show up on a Sunday morning, work 5 or 6 hours and disappear for a few weeks. Then one day he comes by while I am at work and demands to be paid in full and the job wasn't finished. My wife felt very threatened by the jerk and wrote a check but used a pen that leaves ink that peels off. By the time he got to the bank, her signature was half gone and they refused the check. He called and threatened me, threatened to come back out and destroy the kitchen walls etc. He never finished, did not use bull nose tile edging as the contract called for and used some kind of grout that turned to sand and kept falling out of the cracks. I posted pictures of the crappy work on a couple contractor find sites. I also sent pictures to some of the builders that used him. Cost me $1,200 to have someone come in and remove what he did and redo it correctly.

Dennis Peacock
02-21-2019, 12:37 PM
Oh.....a critical topic that really strikes many nerves of mine!!! These are ALL reasons why I do as much of "everything" myself. I've never had good success with a contractor or a sub-contractor. It's like the lack integrity and I'm always a "bother" to them when I call and wonder where they are since they "said" that they would show up 2 days ago and never showed up and never called.

I better hush now before I get myself in trouble. :)

Dave Anderson NH
02-21-2019, 2:07 PM
I just had 2 bathrooms gutted and redone. The contractor I hired was highly recommended. Unfortunately I had to wait 2 months for him to start the work but it was worth every bit of the wait. His work was excellent, he left everything spotless, and he went above and beyond on everything he did. The only area I can fault him in is the delay in answering phone calls though he returns texts promptly. One telling comment he made clinched for himself future work for SWMBO and I. He laid off person he had hired because of "trust issues". I am lucky in having a young man around the corner from me, a landscaper, who has a network of technical high school friends I various trades who share referrals. Not one person he has recommended as been other than fair,competitive, and has done great work.

Lee Schierer
02-21-2019, 2:33 PM
In my area, it is illegal for a contractor to request more than 1/3 the cost of the project and cannot receive additional money except for special order materials until the project is complete. I don't know it this is the law for all of Pennsylvania.

When we wanted to get new siding, new windows and a new roof on our house, I contacted 5-6 local contractors. Three called me to see the job, two came to see the job and one gave me the quote. During that time frame there was a home show going on and the local newspaper had interviewed many of the contractors at the show and they were all whining about the lack of work in the area. My project was about $28,000. When the lone contractor who gave me a bid showed up for me to sign the contract, I asked how long the work would take. I added a month to that and then added a penalty clause to the contract that after that month beyond the estimated completion, the contract would be reduced by $100 per day. At first the contractor refused saying he never worked with a penalty clause, when I explained that he was going to have my house torn apart and what was my guarantee that he would complete my job and that I had given him and entire month more than his estimate, he agreed to the revised contract. My job was completed in a timely fashion despite some really crummy weather just two days after the extra month I had allowed. Due to the circumstances of the weather I waived the penalty.

John K Jordan
02-21-2019, 3:26 PM
Yikes, I must know the only respectable contractor in the country. He has reasonable rates, comes when he says, finds good prices on materials (charges me only what it costs him), works efficiently and does top notch work, personally comes and supervises when he hires subcontractors, and completes by the time he says (often under budget). He is happy to have me work along side of him and lowers the cost accordingly if it saves him time. He is in fact extremely busy and I sometimes have to wait to get on the schedule but if he says he will be there on a certain date I can count on it.

JKJ

Derek Meyer
02-21-2019, 6:27 PM
When I was in high school and college I worked for my grandpa, who was a contract painter. He had been in business for 35 years when I started with him, and retired after 45 years. He was the most expensive painter in town, and he only worked 5 hours a day by that time (they worked 7 to 6 for the first 30 years), and he had a waiting list a year long. He only bid jobs for people he wanted to work for too. But he would always tell them up front how much the job would cost, when he would start and how long it would take. And he was always right on.

It shouldn't be that hard. Be polite, be professional, show up when you say you will and do the work you contracted for. My dad was a big believer in that, and as a general contractor he always stuck to his estimates and time tables. If his subs didn't, then they never got work from him again. But the subs he could rely on got a lot of work - 3 to 4 houses a year for like 30 years.

Bob Glenn
02-21-2019, 6:42 PM
We had an unusual knock at our door. We live in a housing area that is posted "No soliciting". There were two young men, one in college, one a senior in highschool, or so they said, and they were soliciting painting work for a well know paint company. We needed our porch entrance painted, so we asked them to bid. They said they were in an apprentice program and were learning the business. They took our information and said someone else would quote on the price. The whole thing seemed a little odd to me, but we went along.

A couple weeks later someone from a painting company called and asked if I had time to answer a few questions. I hate talking of the phone so I said, no, just come over and give me a quote and that he already had all the information. He told me it looked like I just wanted the porch entrance painted. I said yes, and he told me it was too small a job and hung up.

I'll probably just go ahead and do it myself.

Mike Henderson
02-21-2019, 9:45 PM
I've had good experience with contractors. I found them from references from friends. I was talking with one of them and he told me his "secret" to success:

1. Show up when you say you will.
2. Do good work.
3. Clean up every day and especially when you finish.

He has a waiting list. He has subs that he works with and I've gotten to know several of them. They are reliable and do good work, also. I'm especially friendly with the plumber because I dislike plumbing work and I've had several plumbing projects in this house - not problems but changes.

Mike

Kev Williams
02-21-2019, 10:09 PM
I've been trying to find a dustless sandblasting company to act interested in sandblasting the steel hull of our 50' houseboat. Left messages with 3 local companies, 2 never bothered calling back, the one that did 'had too much work in front of me'... I told him any date in 2018 would work. Then he got put off that it's up on blocks, 'I won't have room for the hose'. Yeah you will, I've seen the video's. Then he told me he'd talk to someone else he knew to see if HE could do it sooner. Never heard from him, or HE either. No response to my calls or emails. Pretty frustrating to have a $6 grand budget and nobody wants it...

Wade Lippman
02-21-2019, 10:11 PM
A couple years ago I replaced my water heater. It was 10 years old and getting rusty. I figured it would fail in next year or two, and when it failed I wouldn't be able to get a plumber for several weeks and he would ultimately charge 50% more because I was desperate. (I have replaced them myself in the past, but am getting a bit old for that...)

I would like to replace my bathroom fan, but it would require some ceiling patching and there is little chance of finding someone to do that.

It is a very sad situation.

John Cole
02-21-2019, 10:31 PM
For the most part you are employing the unemployable. It should be no suprise when they act like what they are.

Wade Lippman
02-21-2019, 10:57 PM
For the most part you are employing the unemployable. It should be no suprise when they act like what they are.

A few years back I found a guy who did everything. He gave written prices, showed up on time, did good work, and honored his quote. When I tried to get him for a second job I found he had taken a job as an apartment maintenance man. Oh I was angry; but I guess you are right.

Gary Ragatz
02-21-2019, 11:25 PM
My wife and I stumbled onto a guy almost 30 years ago when we were looking to put a sun room on the back of our house. He did a nice job at a fair price, so we asked for a bid on the next project a year or so later, and the next project after that, and the next after that.

I never told him, but we stopped bothering with multiple bids after the third project - there wasn't really any point. Besides the sun room, over the years, he re-sided and re-roofed the house, remodeled the kitchen, remodeled two bathrooms, replaced all of the interior doors and trim, and finished part of the basement. Projects ranged from $300 to $30,000. Always did what he said he'd do, when he said he'd do it (we always paid what we agreed to pay, when we had agreed to pay it).

The time we asked him to quote new siding for the house, I also asked him to quote a new overhead door for the garage. He told me he'd be happy to give me a quote, but he was just going to sub the work out to Overhead Door Company - it would be their door, and their guys would install it - and I'd be better off dealing with them directly. He left me a brochure of their products.

I'm getting ready to subdivide the basement in our new house so I'll have a dedicated shop area. Guess who I'm gonna call?

Mike Henderson
02-21-2019, 11:36 PM
A couple years ago I replaced my water heater. It was 10 years old and getting rusty. I figured it would fail in next year or two, and when it failed I wouldn't be able to get a plumber for several weeks and he would ultimately charge 50% more because I was desperate. (I have replaced them myself in the past, but am getting a bit old for that...)

I would like to replace my bathroom fan, but it would require some ceiling patching and there is little chance of finding someone to do that.

It is a very sad situation.

I'll tell a little story on myself.

One afternoon, I came home and there was water coming out of my garage. Checked and the water heater was leaking. So I turned the water off at the heater and drained it so it wouldn't keep leaking. Told my wife that I'd replace it tomorrow (it was getting dark).

She starts complaining that she wants to take a hot shower in the morning. So I go rent a truck and go to Lowes and buy a replacement water heater. Come back, do the plumbing and get the heater operational.

Tell my wife that she's spoiled rotten having a husband who will replace a water heated at 9 o'clock at night so she can take a hot shower in the morning.

Mike

John Goodin
02-22-2019, 12:12 AM
There is a guy I met from my kids school who is a fine carpenter from Ireland. We became friends and I hired him to work on a deck balcony build and soon an interior remodel. He charges 50 bucks an hour and is worth every penny. He misses out on a lot of jobs because he wonít cut corners and is an absolute perfectionist. We work together well and our skill sets compliment one another well. I feel pretty lucky.

Dave Lehnert
02-22-2019, 12:22 AM
Have a zero turn mower with an oil leak. Stopped the first week of January to make arrangements for pick up and repair. almost 8 weeks later have not picked up. I have been planing to buy a new bigger ZTR. Guess who I will not go to? If they are 8 weeks out in January how long for a repair in June ???
Have to go to plan B I guess.
Not my week to get things done.

Dave Lehnert
02-22-2019, 12:37 AM
I went through this last fall too.
I had a leak in the roof. Called one local guy who agreed to come right out. Never showed, Called and left message. No call back. Contacted through his web site, gave my address, cell and home number, Nothing. This guy has 90, 5 star Google reviews. No negatives and I cant get him to return my call. ????
The roofer that did show up to fix the leak, I also gave him a siding job, new gutters and gutter toppers.

Steve Demuth
02-22-2019, 9:03 AM
I have a friend who is a construction contractor. He's told me stories. One that sticks is a former classmate of mine who returned to our home town after a long stint with Saudi Aramco overseas with a pile of money in his bank account. He and his wife spent 2 months in talks with the contractor - over a dozen meetings, plus prints, etc. - to design a half million dollar house. The couple got the final estimate and prints, walked out and hired a building manager to subcontract out all the work to lowest bidders. So, since he had no contract to show or his work, my friend sent the couple a bill for design and engineering services. They never paid. And this was been two parties whose families had known each other for decades.

On the other hand, same guy did a remodel for my wife and I. Didn't charge for the design service, and when the final product came in substantially over his estimate, we settled the bill in a ten minute conversation in which he got less than his billed rate for labor, but I had to spring for somewhat more than I'd hoped. If I recall correctly, about 2/3 of the "pain" was in his pocket.

A real standup guy, in other words.

Jim Becker
02-22-2019, 10:47 AM
My GC friend works on a cost-plus basis. Client pays actual cost for materials and subcontracts and the GC gets a reasonable percentage...about 20%. That covers him for fluctuation due to "surprises", etc., and he progress bills larger projects at about 20% increments rather than the typical 25-50% up front with balance minus 10% at completion and final 10% after punch list is cleared.

Mike Cutler
02-22-2019, 11:00 AM
I think this topic could go both ways. I have heard the horror stories from friends and co workers, and I have many friends in the building trades, so I get to hear both sides,
I also think that there are many, many contractors in the trades that are quietly doing the job right, and are not lacking for work. They're "over booked" because they're reliable and good. You will have to wait for these folks.
I do my own work, except for roofing, because I enjoy it,and it makes me feel good.

Charlie Hinton
02-22-2019, 12:01 PM
Having grown up on a farm where I learned a little something about building or fixing almost everything there and then working in engineering for 30+ years I am one of the customers that some contractors tell their horror stories about.
If a contractor actually listens to what I want, works with me just a little bit to resolve any differences between the way I want it and the way they want it, then they show up and execute the job as agreed with appropriate fit and finish then the story is simply...he expects it to be done right and he pays on time.

John C Cox
02-22-2019, 12:27 PM
Remember guys.... There was a recession that lasted almost 10 years.

Every single skilled trade is dealing with this exact same issue - not just construction.... Welding, industrial maintenance, hydraulics, industrial electricians... It's the same everywhere.

Because of that recession- no new blood entered the trades from around 2007 to 2017 or so... There's a huge gap now - you see guys in their 40's and you see kids fresh out of school.... Hardly nothing in between - they all got laid off and had to find work wherever they could.... Now they have been doing those other things for 10+ years....

So yes - it's absolutely true.... Good contractors are EXTREMELY hard to find and they have LONG waiting lists. That's probably why some don't even bother returning calls - they already have 6+ months of work lined up and are having to turn business away because they simply can't service the business... The honest ones will at least tell you this up front....

Steve Demuth
02-22-2019, 2:16 PM
Yikes, I must know the only respectable contractor in the country. He has reasonable rates, comes when he says, finds good prices on materials (charges me only what it costs him), works efficiently and does top notch work, personally comes and supervises when he hires subcontractors, and completes by the time he says (often under budget). He is happy to have me work along side of him and lowers the cost accordingly if it saves him time. He is in fact extremely busy and I sometimes have to wait to get on the schedule but if he says he will be there on a certain date I can count on it.

JKJ

I know more than one in our area. They are all swamped right now, though, so if you're not on their list and have no relationship with them they can be very hard to get.

We're building a guest house right now. Set out to do this 2 years ago. Negotiated with one guy, who is a family friend, for 8 months, with continuous representation on his part that we were on his list to start in summer / fall 2017 and complete by Spring of last year. Finally in September he just started refusing to even take my calls. I have been told by mutual friends his company has over an 18 month backlog. So a year ago I went to another friend who is a partner in a timber framing group, but also does general contracting on the side when that business is slow. He said, yep, he could do it, and get it done by Christmas of last year. He finally got a concrete contractor here the last week of October. He managed to get two young carpenters to work with him on the actual construction, but it's a slow slog due to other work, winter weather, and inability to get trades in to do their part. They MAY get it finished this Spring.

But unlike the first, he's never left me hanging, or said I was his highest priority when I wasn't. And he does beautiful work, so I'm a mostly satisfied customer.

marlin adams
02-22-2019, 10:40 PM
Having been a electrician starting out as a helper then journyman I seen and heard stuff like this alot. I actually worked on the side and actually had a electrical supply give me credit because I work with them thru a couple of electrical companies that got supplies from. I always did work out in the county since I didnt have to worry about pulling permits but I always did work to code. I did have the opposite problem of people not paying me a few times and since my dad when he was alive was a judge and he was my lawyer so when I filed thru small claims court on them I got my money plus his fees :)

Tom Bender
02-24-2019, 9:16 AM
Before retiring I managed industrial construction projects. We only hired union contractors. Expensive? yes, and there were some issues around schedule, cost, safety and personalities. But there were almost never issues around quality. That is because the workers were well paid for their work and were provided with proper tools and materials. They expected to stay in the trades long term and were proud of their work. They felt with some justification better than the non-union types.

Brian Elfert
02-24-2019, 10:43 AM
I called a guy I had worked with before to get a seamless gutter put on the front of my garage. I left a message for him one day and he called back within the hour with a price. I didn't decide to move forward for a few weeks and he never answered his phone and never returned a half dozen messages. He never did call me so no work for him.

I went with another company I have used before who thought they could get the project done even with winter weather. They haven't done the project yet, but don't blame them as it has been cold with lots of snow. I need to call them to make sure I'm first on the list as soon as the snow melts. Everybody and their brother will want work done as soon as the snow melts so I hope they don't start on bigger jobs first.

In 2016 I got a quote to replace the line to my septic system for $850. I called the guy in 2017 and said I wanted the work done. He came out a few weeks later and marked the area so he could get the utilities marked. I called a week or two after that to find out when he was going to do the work and then he mentions the price went up to $1,200. I expected the price might have gone up a bit, but not almost 50%. I essentially told him to take a hike at point as wasn't going to pay him $1,200. He wasted a lot of his time by not telling me the price upfront. The project isn't urgent and still not done as I have no idea who to trust. There is one company I know to avoid as they are crooks.

Brian Elfert
02-24-2019, 10:47 AM
So yes - it's absolutely true.... Good contractors are EXTREMELY hard to find and they have LONG waiting lists. That's probably why some don't even bother returning calls - they already have 6+ months of work lined up and are having to turn business away because they simply can't service the business... The honest ones will at least tell you this up front....

So, how do these contractors stay busy if they don't take on any new business? Eventually they will run out of work. It would be nice if these guys mentioned on their voicemail that they aren't taking new customers rather than just never returning calls.

Mike Wilkins
02-24-2019, 10:09 PM
When I was working as an insurance adjuster I heard the same lament often from homeowners. in a housing boom there seems to be a shortage of skilled trades persons, most of whom were working at guaranteed jobs for builders. And the smaller handy men were the worst at showing up when called.
My solution was to learn to do most jobs myself, with the exception of HVAC work and roofing. My knees and back had a conversation with my brain and they decided that roof work was off limits.

Jim Becker
02-25-2019, 10:14 AM
I'm with you on the "don't go up high" thing, Mike...i hire out my gutter cleaning even as I just don't feel comfortable anymore up on the roof.

Dave Lehnert
03-20-2019, 5:04 PM
UPDATE- I'm making progress. Had a contractor show up and take measurements. Have not heard from him in 3 weeks. :rolleyes:

Jim Koepke
03-20-2019, 8:14 PM
UPDATE- I'm making progress. Had a contractor show up and take measurements. Have not heard from him in 3 weeks. :rolleyes:

Reminds me of trying to get someone to take down a large black walnut tree in my California home's backyard.

People would come look, talk a good game, but never come back. We sold the house last year with the tree still standing. Someone else's problem now.

It was somewhat the same with our new location. Funny though the people not showing up got me to change my mind about which trees to cut. One of our neighbor's father (Vern) used to be a timber cutter. Now he is kind of a broker and interested in finding, cutting and selling trees to the mills. He came, he looked, he had a young tree cutter come and cut trees. The young guy was able to borrow a dozer. Vern also new an independent trucker to pick up and haul the logs to the various mills. A great way to get rid of a few problem trees.

jtk