Chisel sharpening - difficulties

[Bryce Walter]

I'm a novice and am looking for insight into what I'm doing wrong.

I'm using the Veritas Mk II sharpening jig. After flattening the back, I'm setting a 25 degree bevel first on the 300 and then 1000 stone. When I go to do the micro-bevel it's clear that something is not straight based on the results. I've gone through the process several times with consistent results.

I've double checked that the chisel is sits square to the fence (both before & after), and am tightening the clamp knobs evenly. I'm applying even pressure to both sides of the chisel.

What am I doing wrong?


404051

[William Fretwell]

Bryce I use the same guide. The most obvious reason is twisting the guide as you push it across the stone or perhaps just at the end of the stroke. However the most obvious reason is also very unlikely.
It is trickier than you think to get it square, check it with a small square after removing the guide alignment.
If it is truly square and pushed in a straight line parallel to the edge of the stone the edge will be square.

[Mike Henderson]

I do a similar thing. I establish my primary 25 degree bevel on a WorkSharp and then put a secondary bevel on an 8000 water stone by hand.

What I'd recommend is that you not use the jig for the secondary bevel - just hold the chisel. Do a couple of passes and look at the secondary bevel. It may be starting to "one-side" like you show. That's because of the way you're holding the chisel. Compensate by putting more pressure on the side that's thinner. You'll pick up the technique quickly.

Mike

[JimA Thornton]

You don't say what angle you're using for the micro bevel. When you establish there primary at 25 degrees are you then turning the little knob to give you 2 degrees of micro bevel (i.e. 27 degrees) or are you resetting the chisel for a 30 degree micro bevel? I get some of what you're seeing but it's not really as wonky as what you might think. I just hone the micro bevel, until it's established all the way across, remove the wire edge, strop and go to work. Like I said, even though it looks wonky, check it with a square and it may not be as bad as it looks like.

I think I'll try the micro bevel by hand as Mike suggests and see how that goes.

Jim

[Bryce Walter]

I did some more testing and I think it might be something with the Micro-bevel adjustment on the jig.

If I establish a 25 degree primary bevel, and then put the registration jig back on and set to ~27 degree, the micro bevel looks great.
If I establish a 25 degree primary bevel, and then use the micro-bevel knob (the manual states it gives 1-2 degree micro bevel), it comes out looking all wonky (to quote Jim).

I guess the question now is, is this something I should/can live with? I'm glad I figured out something that works for me. However, for a $70 sharpening jig, I guess I expected more.

I appreciate everyone's insight.

[Jim Chan]

I tried the veritas mkII jig, but ended up returning it for the same problems you were experiencing. I found the jig to be too finicky and difficult to get a square bevel, particularly for chisels. I didn't have the narrow blade attachment (not sure if they had it at the time).
IIRC, you have to tighten two knobs like on the tormek jigs, and uneven pressure can result in a slight skew.

Anyway, I bought the lie nielsen jig last year and am very happy with that one. Very easy to get setup consistently square, since it clamps from the sides, as opposed to the faces. I don't do micro bevels, but you could easily achieve that with a shim in your home made registration jig. Only downside I've experienced so far is the limited selection of skew angles, but not a big deal for me.

[Hugo Salais]

Sounds like you're on the right track figuring out the problem. I'm just starting myself and had the same issue first time I sharpened my chisels, but i'm using a cheap beat up jig I basically got for free. What helped me get my arms used to the movement was starting with only a pulling stroke when grinding. Once I started getting the feel for it I started speeding up my arms. Now i'm working on not relying on the jig so much, but that is my goal, to be able to keep a straight edge free hand. $70 is a lot of money to spend for it not to work like it's supposed to and the intended goal to make it simple to add a micro bevel. Sounds like the micro bevel knob is making the jig tilt to one side, not necessarily out of square. Is there more play on one side than the other?

[Derek Cohen]

....


404051

If I establish a 25 degree primary bevel, and then put the registration jig back on and set to ~27 degree, the micro bevel looks great.
If I establish a 25 degree primary bevel, and then use the micro-bevel knob (the manual states it gives 1-2 degree micro bevel), it comes out looking all wonky (to quote Jim).


Bryce, I suspect that the micro bevel cam may be faulty. Speak to LV about this before you go on. These issues should be taken up with the manufacturer before posting on a forum. For all you know, this could be user error.

Still, there is a simple solution to your problem: do not use a tertiary bevel. From the photo, it looks like you are honing on a hollow grind. The point of a secondary (and tertiary) bevel is to reduce the amount of steel to make honing easier (less steel to work). The edge off a hollow grind is so small that you do not need to change the bevel angle. Just keep the one setting and use it for all the grits you go through when honing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Luter]

The amount of misalignment that can cause this is almost impossible to measure. It takes almost nothing for it to be visually apparent. It has to do with the two intersecting angles being so close to one another. The misalignment between the two is is exaggerated by the line of transition the smaller the angle is. The greater the angle, the less the apparent visual misalignment.

Lee Valley touches on the phenomenon here: http://www.leevalley.com/us/html/05M0910ie.pdf (scroll to last page)

My suggestion? Ignore it. The micro bevel is square to the chisel body with a degree of precision that is beyond anything we really need. Put it to work.

[ken hatch]

Bryce,

The jig you are using is known to "slip" as are most top clamping jigs. If you need to use a jig and your chisels will fit in an "Eclipse" style jig that is the way to go. Cheaper and works better.

ken

[Don Dorn]

Guess I'm quite a bit lazier. I have a 25 degree mark on the wall next to my stationary sander. When it's time to re-grind, I match that mark and place it on the sander. After that, the Sellers method is used for putting the edge on. Next, it's stropped and am able to to simply re-strop for the next few time before the stones are used again.

[Richard Jones]

Guess I'm quite a bit lazier. I have a 25 degree mark on the wall next to my stationary sander. When it's time to re-grind, I match that mark and place it on the sander. After that, the Sellers method is used for putting the edge on. Next, it's stropped and am able to to simply re-strop for the next few time before the stones are used again.

Don,

What is "the Sellers method?"

[Charles Guest]

It's a problem inherent with top-clamping jigs. If you use a top clamping jig I'd suggest using a dry honing system -- scary sharp or ceramic stones. You could also just get an Eclipse-style jig (side clamping) for about $12 and use it with whatever stones you care to -- oil, water, dry, sandpaper, whatever. With an Eclipse jig you just hone on the bevel, it's no big deal once you get everything going that way.

Ultimately, you'd like to move away from using jigs unless there are physical limitations that prevent you from doing so.

[Jacob Reverb]

I use this type of jig and never had the problem you describe:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51p5%2BjDJCEL._SY355_.jpg

After using a protractor to set the bevel I want, I scribe a line on the back of the blade to make follow-ups easier...

[Robert Engel]

Its either unequal pressure or the chisel isn't in the jig squarely. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the jig.

Its also a problem with narrower width chisels because its harder to register against the stone evenly.

I suggest you re-evaluate with these two things in mind.

I also encourage you to learn to sharpen free hand. It really isn't that hard to learn.

[Jake Rothermel]

Make sure your stones are flat?

[J. Greg Jones]

I would agree with what Rob Luter mentioned above-it is likely the error in the micro-bevel adjustment on the jig which Lee Valley mentions in the linked document. If you want to test this, try re-establishing the 25 degree primary bevel, leave the micro-adjust knob in the 12 o'clock position, and set a micro-bevel angle by pulling the blade back in to say 30 degrees.

[Edwin Santos]

I would agree with what Rob Luter mentioned above-it is likely the error in the micro-bevel adjustment on the jig which Lee Valley mentions in the linked document. If you want to test this, try re-establishing the 25 degree primary bevel, leave the micro-adjust knob in the 12 o'clock position, and set a micro-bevel angle by pulling the blade back in to say 30 degrees.

This would be a good way to isolate the issue. If you get an even microbevel this way, it tells you the cam is probably at fault.

I also echo the advice given to check your stones with a straightedge for flatness.

[ken hatch]

I would agree with what Rob Luter mentioned above-it is likely the error in the micro-bevel adjustment on the jig which Lee Valley mentions in the linked document. If you want to test this, try re-establishing the 25 degree primary bevel, leave the micro-adjust knob in the 12 o'clock position, and set a micro-bevel angle by pulling the blade back in to say 30 degrees.


This would be a good way to isolate the issue. If you get an even microbevel this way, it tells you the cam is probably at fault.

I also echo the advice given to check your stones with a straightedge for flatness.

Just one problem, with a top clamping jig it is very difficult to get repeat alinements true. Once you reset the iron you wouldn't know the cause of any changes. If the difference in alinement bugs you the best answer is to change jigs or learn to freehand. It could be the jig is defective, if so changing jigs would show that. It could be technique, if it is technique the problem will follow after changing jigs.

As has been mentioned a side clamping jig (Eclipse or clone) are so cheap it's a no brainer to try one. BTW, all jigs have limitations and any one jig has types of chisels and/or cutters it will not work with. Bottom line, at some time you will need to learn to sharpen at least some of your tools freehand or limit the type of tools used.

ken

[Ted Phillips]

Make sure your stones are flat?

I would be on this being the problem... If you are using waterstones, give them a good flattening before sharpening.

[J. Greg Jones]

Just one problem, with a top clamping jig it is very difficult to get repeat alinements true...
The Veritas jig has an attachment to set the projection that has a side fence to keep things square when tightening the jig, so this shouldn't be a problem unless the sides of the chisel are not parallel. However, to eliminate as much error as possible, I was thinking that a better way to test would be to hone to 25*, micro-bevel to 30*, and if the micro-bevel is still skewed, paint the area with a Sharpie and switch it back to 25* start to test. If the grind shows that it is leveling out again, then the skew of the roller would be suspect, otherwise the blade has shifted in the jig.

In any event, this jig will have issues with any chisel narrower than around ½ inch as there is not enough contact area on the top/bottom to keep it in place. Veritas has a side-clamp jig that is used with the same roller that works well with all chisels.

[Rob Luter]

.....In any event, this jig will have issues with any chisel narrower than around ½ inch as there is not enough contact area on the top/bottom to keep it in place. Veritas has a side-clamp jig that is used with the same roller that works well with all chisels.

I have both attachments for my Veritas MKII Honing Guide. I found that the narrow guide head is superior for all chisels with parallel sides regardless of width. The clamp on the standard head is touchy. I improved the gripping utility by adding a thin layer of leather to the clamp bar. Adhesive backed cork works equally well.

As others have mentioned, an eclipse style guide (LN makes a really nice one (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4239/honing-guide)) is superior with respect to holding power and accuracy. It (the LN version) is also expensive and requires that your chisel or plane iron have parallel sides.

[ken hatch]

The Veritas jig has an attachment to set the projection that has a side fence to keep things square when tightening the jig, so this shouldn't be a problem unless the sides of the chisel are not parallel. However, to eliminate as much error as possible, I was thinking that a better way to test would be to hone to 25*, micro-bevel to 30*, and if the micro-bevel is still skewed, paint the area with a Sharpie and switch it back to 25* start to test. If the grind shows that it is leveling out again, then the skew of the roller would be suspect, otherwise the blade has shifted in the jig.

In any event, this jig will have issues with any chisel narrower than around ½ inch as there is not enough contact area on the top/bottom to keep it in place. Veritas has a side-clamp jig that is used with the same roller that works well with all chisels.

Greg,

I'm familiar with the Veritas jig and its attachment, it is one of many jigs I've used that are either gathering dust somewhere in my shop or whoever's shop I gave it to. The nature of a top mount jig makes it very difficult to repeat perfect alinement even with the attachment. BTW, I would change that to read "works with many smaller chisels".

As I have posted, there ain't a jig out there that will work well with all chisels.

Some jigs, and as I have round heels when it comes to sharpening, I've tried a fair number of 'em, have one problem or another. While I like most LV and Veritas products, this jig can be problematic holding the iron and easy to screw up.

ken

[Simon MacGowen]

I use this type of jig and never had the problem you describe:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51p5%2BjDJCEL._SY355_.jpg


This type of eclipse guide has its share of problem (esp for plane blades) which is well documented by many authors/magazines.

There is a fix however we can all do, and this video is the best out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBHd7x6ySSQ

The Veritas mkII jig is great for skews and back bevels, and its narrow jig is great for chisels esp the very narrow chisels (1/8" or less). Those two are fantastic companions to my free hand sharpening regime.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

I have one of these. They are bulletproof.

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/01054923?cid=ppc-google-New+-+Abrasives+-+PLA_sNxHmM8jb___164110813434_c_S&mkwid=sNxHmM8jb|dc&pcrid=164110813434&rd=k&product_id=01054923&gclid=Cj0KCQiAtbnjBRDBARIsAO3zDl9RTgWSS2VO4d9FMzAA sQbOOZ5IyvJpL8-miqGKaxbsmmzwgrXm71oaAtiqEALw_wcB

[James Pallas]

The difference in your chisel is very small. Remember your eye can see small amounts. You are registering off of the back and looking at the front. The thickness of the blade could very from one side to the other and when you change the angle that is multiplied. If you have a decent engineers square.regrind to 25* or what you are using as a base. Check the edge with your square leaving it in the jig. Reset your jig polish the edge and check it with your square again. From your picture the difference I see would take machinists equipment to measure. Put the chisel to work on wood and forget about it. You could get that with finger pressure heavier on one side than the other. That’s how we camber smoothing plane irons, just finger pressure, isn’t it?
Jim

[Jacob Reverb]

This type of eclipse guide has its share of problem (esp for plane blades) which is well documented by many authors/magazines.

There is a fix however we can all do, and this video is the best out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBHd7x6ySSQ

The Veritas mkII jig is great for skews and back bevels, and its narrow jig is great for chisels esp the very narrow chisels (1/8" or less). Those two are fantastic companions to my free hand sharpening regime.

Simon

Thanks for the tip, Simon. Was not aware that those jigs would bend. Never noticed any problem with mine when I used it to sharpen plane irons. Maybe mine is already relieved, or maybe my plane iron was stiff enough not to bend, or maybe I didn't tighten it enough to strain it. I'll have to pay more attention the next time I use it.

[J. Greg Jones]

So, just for my own edification I tried an experiment this morning. I have a set of Aldi chisels that I bought last year that I hadn't touched yet, and I put the .71" one in my Veritas top-mount honing guide and set the bevel to 23*, using the Veritas registration jig. I put a strip of 120 grit paper on a granite stone to make quick work of this, and honed a new primary bevel (picture 1). I then set the honing guide's micro-bevel cam to the 6 o'clock position which I believe is a 2* change and added the secondary bevel (picture 2, blue ink). The new bevel looks to be in perfect alignment with the primary bevel.

I then reset the cam and returned the entire edge back to the primary bevel. I then removed the chisel from the guide, set the registration jig's setting to 25*, and set the chisel in the guide. I honed a new secondary bevel (picture 3, black ink) and it too looks very good. Not as nice as what I got using the micro-bevel cam, but still acceptable. So this is not a scientific test by a long stretch, but I wanted to share for the entertainment value. One more thing, notice that I used the cambered roller which I believe is recommended only for plane blades, but also worked well in this application.

[Jessica de Boer]

Boy, you people make sharpening a real chore.

[James Pallas]

Boy, you people make sharpening a real chore.
Jessica, There are many people here who free hand sharpen as you do. You learned from your father. Some people don't have that advantage and have to sort it out for themselves. The original question concerned the use of a jig so many people tried to help with that question. Jig question not a sharpening question.
Jim

[Jessica de Boer]

For thousands of years people all over the world were taught, or taught themselves how to get their tools sharp enough for the task at hand. The time mucking about with a jig is better spent on learning to sharpen. It's really not that difficult, I promise. You will find you can get a chisel just as sharp, or sharper, in less time and be back to work faster. After a couple of times you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

[James Pallas]

For thousands of years people all over the world were taught, or taught themselves how to get their tools sharp enough for the task at hand. The time mucking about with a jig is better spent on learning to sharpen. It's really not that difficult, I promise. You will find you can get a chisel just as sharp, or sharper, in less time and be back to work faster. After a couple of times you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.
Jessica why don't you use your blog on this site or write us an article in the article section and share your step by step analysis. I for one would like to see that and maybe learn something.
Jim

[Charles Guest]

Jessica why don't you use your blog on this site or write us an article in the article section and share your step by step analysis. I for one would like to see that and maybe learn something.
Jim

Hollow grind the chisel or plane iron, hone on the grind, chase the burr from the back a few times, finish on a strop. There's nothing to analyze. The hollow grind is your jig. You can do a slight lift while honing to put a slightly higher angle on the tip, if you want to. If when wiping the burr off the back on the strop you can do a slight lift to put a little polish, on the back, right at the tip. You are not creating a back bevel, just a little extra polish.

[Jim Koepke]

A tool holder or sharpening jig is handy when using coarse abrasive sheets to remove a lot of metal.

After a good flat bevel is established there isn't a lot of work to be done. Learning to go from the quick rough metal removal to refining the edge by hand is as an essential skill of woodworking as any other. Once the edge is established, touching up an edge by hand is much faster.

Of course if one is starting with a hollow grind the need for a holder for sharpening is even less.

Now after about 20 years of woodworking, my sharpening skills are pretty good, but it still amazes me how skill can improve even after all this time.

One should not feel as if they have reached a point where there is nothing new to learn.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

The quest for sharpness could drive you quite mad if you let it, and it seems some are well on their way.

[J. Greg Jones]

Hollow grind the chisel or plane iron, hone on the grind, chase the burr from the back a few times, finish on a strop. There's nothing to analyze. The hollow grind is your jig. You can do a slight lift while honing to put a slightly higher angle on the tip, if you want to. If when wiping the burr off the back on the strop you can do a slight lift to put a little polish, on the back, right at the tip. You are not creating a back bevel, just a little extra polish.
Let me see if I understand this logic, One needs to buy a grinder, perhaps (likely) new wheels, and perhaps (also likely) new tool rests (a jig) in order to put a hollow grind on a chisel or a blade for a plane (another jig) and learn how to freehand sharpen to avoid... buying a sharpening jig? 🤔 My gosh, who is mad now? Why is it that people get SO condescending about how others sharpen their tools? Why can it be as simple as 'Sharp tools are important to good woodworking results, how one gets their tools sharp is not important.'?

[Don Dorn]

Don,

What is "the Sellers method?"

You can find it on the tube for a better explanation, but like a plane iron, it's done by hand. You hold near the edge of the blade starting on a 220 and run it back and forth trying to keep it on the bevel but not worrying if it doesn't happen. When there is a burr, move the 800 and then the 1000 or higher and remove the bur on the back. I then strop fairly aggressively about 30 strokes (happens quickly). The result slices a piece of receipt paper nearly in half.

The bevel becomes convex which works very well. My problem is that over time, it becomes too convex and then back to the sander. For me, that trip only occurs every 10 or 15 sharpening's. I'm bad at explaining so if you search his name on the tube along with chisel sharpening, you'll see what I'm speaking of. Been doing for three years or better now.

[Mark Rainey]

Interesting comments by some expert woodworkers. Perhaps jigs interfere with skill development. There are many parallels in other learning situations. Do training wheels slow down learning to ride a bike? Some learn music by ear, others by written note and didactic instruction. Does a rigid phonics approach to reading impair interest in good literature, etc. Learning is complex, and individual differences abound. Some might say a beginner can experience what a truly sharp chisel feels like by using a jig. Then he may move on to freehand. Others say it muddles the whole situation. Good thoughts.

[Charles Guest]

Let me see if I understand this logic, One needs to buy a grinder, perhaps (likely) new wheels, and perhaps (also likely) new tool rests (a jig) in order to put a hollow grind on a chisel or a blade for a plane (another jig) and learn how to freehand sharpen to avoid... buying a sharpening jig? �� My gosh, who is mad now? Why is it that people get SO condescending about how others sharpen their tools? Why can it be as simple as 'Sharp tools are important to good woodworking results, how one gets their tools sharp is not important.'?

A grinding facility is pretty standard in a workshop. If you're unaware of this, I doubt there's much point in me going much further. Everything cannot be sharpened in a jig.

[J. Greg Jones]

A grinding facility is pretty standard in a workshop. If you're unaware of this, I doubt there's much point in me going much further. Everything cannot be sharpened in a jig.
Well first of all, I would challenge that a grinding facility is standard equipment in a workshop. I have one in mine, but plenty of woodworkers get by fine without a grinder. But to the point, my assumption, which may be wrong, is the the OP does not have a grinding station. Did you miss the part where he indicated that he established the primary bevel not with a grinder, but rather his grinding jig? It's not a question of what I am, or am not, aware of. It is a question of assisting the OP with the challenge he is facing with the equipment he has on hand. Suggesting that he needs to buy a grinder, or buy a side mount jig, or learn to sharpen freehand does not help with his question!

[Charles Guest]

Well first of all, I would challenge that a grinding facility is standard equipment in a workshop. I have one in mine, but plenty of woodworkers get by fine without a grinder. But to the point, my assumption, which may be wrong, is the the OP does not have a grinding station. Did you miss the part where he indicated that he established the primary bevel not with a grinder, but rather his grinding jig? It's not a question of what I am, or am not, aware of. It is a question of assisting the OP with the challenge he is facing with the equipment he has on hand. Suggesting that he needs to buy a grinder, or buy a side mount jig, or learn to sharpen freehand does not help with his question!

Sharpening out of square is a problem with top clamping jigs that no manufacturer has ever fully solved, adding roller cams and other assorted gewgaws to a poor design doesn't help matters either. People have complained about that same jig, doing the same thing, for literally years. This is nothing new. One can sweat an inherently poor design for the rest of one's woodworking life, or take one's medicine and move on to a better solution. It's that simple. Eclipse clones cost about $12. I don't think it's outlandish to recommend one, which I did in my first post in the thread.

$11.50 actually:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=60311&cat=1,43072,43078

Long-term, I still recommend hollow grinding. The jig is still handy to have around for rebate cutters, and at $11.50 is an afterthought given the overall expense of the hobby.

The bejeweled piece of kit causing all of the problems could probably be sold on a favourite auction site and recover at least half of its original purchase price, likely more. I think people are drawn to the colourful decals.

[J. Greg Jones]

Sharpening out of square is a problem with top clamping jigs that no manufacturer has ever fully solved, adding roller cams and other assorted gewgaws to a poor design doesn't help matters either. People have complained about that same jig, doing the same thing, for literally years. This is nothing new. One can sweat an inherently poor design for the rest of one's woodworking life, or take one's medicine and move on to a better solution. It's that simple. Eclipse clones cost about $12. I don't think it's outlandish to recommend one, which I did in my first post in the thread.

$11.50 actually:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=60311&cat=1,43072,43078

Long-term, I still recommend hollow grinding. The jig is still handy to have around for rebate cutters, and at $11.50 is an afterthought given the overall expense of the hobby.

The bejeweled piece of kit causing all of the problems could probably be sold on a favourite auction site and recover at least half of its original purchase price, likely more.
Just one question-do, or have you, owned the (bejeweled piece of kit) Veritas jig in question? Because if you have not, what makes you qualified to comment on what you perceive to be its limitations?

[Stewie Simpson]

Jessica why don't you use your blog on this site or write us an article in the article section and share your step by step analysis. I for one would like to see that and maybe learn something.

Jessica; proceed with caution. The Ides of March are approaching. Whats been requested is akin to being thrown into the Roman Colosseum with a bunch of hungry lions

Stewie;

[Edwin Santos]

Just one question-do, or have you, owned the (bejeweled piece of kit) Veritas jig in question? Because if you have not, what makes you qualified to comment on what you perceive to be its limitations?

The question wasn't directed to me, but I own the "bejeweled piece of kit" and it works really well. It is consistently reviewed positively by magazines and other users. I've also had success hollow grinding. However these days I do neither because I've moved to mostly freehand honing and gotten used to it.
As a result of the recent thread about A2 steel, I took away some advice to try freehand honing a microbevel which I've been doing for only a few days now, and I'm finding it works very well and very quickly (for me).
Today for the first time I tried the David C. ruler trick, and I found it brought results even faster. Not necessarily keener than the earlier steps in my evolution, but certainly faster.

Every single one of these methods brought me sharp edges. I think sharpening is interesting and fun, even therapeutic, and my willingness to experiment with different methods has brought me better and faster results. I'm here to improve my woodworking.

The OP should absolutely be able to get good results with his jig, so long as he confirms no defect in it. There's no reason to rain on anyone else's procedure if it gives them the results they are seeking. There's also no reason to mock anyone for pursuing sharpening excellence and trying different methods to achieve it.

[Brian Holcombe]

Freehand skill is important from a practical perspective. It’s very fast once you get the hang of it. Developing a feel for it is important in many other aspects of the work.

[Andrew Fleck]

Have you tried a different chisel or iron in the jig? If those come out fine than at least the jig should be ok.

[James Pallas]

Jessica; proceed with caution. The Ides of March are approaching. Whats been requested is akin to being thrown into the Roman Colosseum with a bunch of hungry lions

Stewie;
you must have been reading Stewie:cool:

[ken hatch]

Just one question-do, or have you, owned the (bejeweled piece of kit) Veritas jig in question? Because if you have not, what makes you qualified to comment on what you perceive to be its limitations?

Mr. Jones,

I have owned the jig in question and can attest that it has the problems mentioned. The limitations of top clamping jigs are well known even if made by LV.

ken

[Jessica de Boer]

Now after about 20 years of woodworking, my sharpening skills are pretty good, but it still amazes me how skill can improve even after all this time.

My bevels were always a tiny bit convex. Not much mind you, maybe a curve of 0,25mm. It was the result of the rocking motion a lot of us unintentionally and automatically make moving the chisel back and forth over the stone. I was talking with Stanley Covington about sharpening and he told me about an article written by researchers at the uni of Tokyo. The found it's easier to erase the scratch pattern of the previous stone with the next higher grit stone if the bevel is fully flat. I changed where I put pressure and was able to get true flat bevel quite easily and the result speaks for itself. There's no difference in sharpness or edge retention but I get to the end faster now.

[Jim Koepke]

The quest for sharpness could drive you quite mad if you let it, and it seems some are well on their way.

And some of us have arrived. :D


[edited]
Why can it be as simple as 'Sharp tools are important to good woodworking results, how one gets their tools sharp is not important.'?

Though simple answers are often the best, some folks like to add layers of complexity.


Well first of all, I would challenge that a grinding facility is standard equipment in a workshop. I have one in mine, but plenty of woodworkers get by fine without a grinder. But to the point, my assumption, which may be wrong, is the the OP does not have a grinding station. Did you miss the part where he indicated that he established the primary bevel not with a grinder, but rather his grinding jig? It's not a question of what I am, or am not, aware of. It is a question of assisting the OP with the challenge he is facing with the equipment he has on hand. Suggesting that he needs to buy a grinder, or buy a side mount jig, or learn to sharpen freehand does not help with his question!

My shop still doesn't have a set up to hollow grind. There is a project underway to have one.

If one doesn't have a grinder a blade holding jig may be the fastest way to get to a useable bevel.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

If one doesn't have a grinder a blade holding jig may be the fastest way to get to a useable bevel.

jtk

For someone who sharpens on maybe a monthly basis I would contend it is the only way to get a reliable result which is why hollow grinding is such a good thing. The bevel is so small the angle is irrelevant within reason and if the result is not good enough it takes very little time and metal removal to start again.

[Jim Koepke]

Freehand skill is important from a practical perspective. It’s very fast once you get the hang of it. Developing a feel for it is important in many other aspects of the work.

When a blade needs honing, free hand sharpening can often be done quicker than the time it takes to find the holder and set it up with the blade.


My bevels were always a tiny bit convex. Not much mind you, maybe a curve of 0,25mm. It was the result of the rocking motion a lot of us unintentionally and automatically make moving the chisel back and forth over the stone. I was talking with Stanley Covington about sharpening and he told me about an article written by researchers at the uni of Tokyo. The found it's easier to erase the scratch pattern of the previous stone with the next higher grit stone if the bevel is fully flat. I changed where I put pressure and was able to get true flat bevel quite easily and the result speaks for itself. There's no difference in sharpness or edge retention but I get to the end faster now.

Over the last few years the "tiny bit convex" of the bevel is when they get redone. More recently this has caused me also change my approach to holding a blade while sharpening, to help keep the convexity from occurring.

As mentioned in an earlier post, there will always be more to learn.

jtk

[Doug Dawson]

For thousands of years people all over the world were taught, or taught themselves how to get their tools sharp enough for the task at hand. The time mucking about with a jig is better spent on learning to sharpen. It's really not that difficult, I promise. You will find you can get a chisel just as sharp, or sharper, in less time and be back to work faster. After a couple of times you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

I still try to sharpen freehand, for probably longer than you've been alive, but one thing you neglect to consider is that as some of us get older, this ability is not what it once was, and a jig is helpful. Write back to me when you're using a walker too. :^) (Among other things we have to deal with, regrettably.)

[Charles Guest]

And some of us have arrived. :D



Though simple answers are often the best, some folks like to add layers of complexity.



My shop still doesn't have a set up to hollow grind. There is a project underway to have one.

If one doesn't have a grinder a blade holding jig may be the fastest way to get to a useable bevel.

jtk

How do you handle turning gouges, etc.?

[ken hatch]

For someone who sharpens on maybe a monthly basis I would contend it is the only way to get a reliable result which is why hollow grinding is such a good thing. The bevel is so small the angle is irrelevant within reason and if the result is not good enough it takes very little time and metal removal to start again.

Chris,

Monthly? That is some good iron.

ken

[Rob Luter]

When a blade needs honing, free hand sharpening can often be done quicker than the time it takes to find the holder and set it up with the blade.

I find this to be true, and have worked hard to gain the skills to perform these touchups freehand. A couple swipes is usually all it takes to keep the edge razor sharp.



As mentioned in an earlier post, there will always be more to learn.

And I aspire to learn a little more every day. Sometimes damn little, but I keep moving the needle :D

[Phil Gaudio]

To answer the OPs original question: the LV guide uses an eccentric adjustor to change the sharpening angle, thus adding a micro-bevel. The roller is fixed at one end, and eccentrically adjusted at the other end. This results in a roller that is slightly out of parallel with the blade edge. You need such little work on the edge of the blade to create a micro-bevel that its not a big deal. As far as the chisel slipping: I had this problem too. Take some PSA abrasive paper and line the jaws of the clamp: this will help keep a more secure purchase on the blade. I used the PSA paper that I used for sharpening (e.g. 3M micro-finishing film, 15 micron).

[Jim Koepke]

How do you handle turning gouges, etc.?

With stones and one of these:

404261

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48435&cat=1,43072

It is like an electrical 'scary sharp' system.

It has proven itself quite versatile.

jtk

[J. Greg Jones]

To answer the OPs original question: the LV guide uses an eccentric adjustor to change the sharpening angle, thus adding a micro-bevel. The roller is fixed at one end, and eccentrically adjusted at the other end. This results in a roller that is slightly out of parallel with the blade edge. You need such little work on the edge of the blade to create a micro-bevel that its not a big deal...
The wheel assembly consists of 4 major parts-the axle, which is fixed in both rotation (when in use) and location on both ends, an eccentric cam on each end, the roller which rotates independently of the axle (on the eccentric cam), and the adjuster knob. The adjuster rotates the cam, on the axle, to one of three positions that changes the height of the blade carrier, which as a result changes the angle that the blade is presented to the stone. The axle of the jig remains in the same location and the roller remains, for all practical purposes, parallel to the stone and the blade in the jig. It does not, at least not by design, skew the blade to one side.

[Charles Guest]

The wheel assembly consists of 4 major parts-the axle, which is fixed in both rotation (when in use) and location on both ends, an eccentric cam on each end, the roller which rotates independently of the axle (on the eccentric cam), and the adjuster knob. The adjuster rotates the cam, on the axle, to one of three positions that changes the height of the blade carrier, which as a result changes the angle that the blade is presented to the stone. The axle of the jig remains in the same location and the roller remains, for all practical purposes, parallel to the stone and the blade in the jig. It does not, at least not by design, skew the blade to one side.

It's even simpler than that Greg - the blade, chisel, etc. just slips.

The flaw in the design has nothing to do with the roller, cam, wheel or any of the related parts, it's the top clamp that is to blame. This is why others have suggested using sandpaper to hold whatever is being honed more firmly and I've suggested switching to dry honing media if abandoning that particular jig is out of the question. Narrow chisels are particularly prone. It's a beautifully designed jig, except for the fact that the cutter or chisel clamps from the top instead of from both edges. Marples made a top clamping jig, I think Sorby had one years ago, Woden as well I'm almost positive, probably more, they were all basically clones of each other. They all suffered from the same issue, the item being honed will often skew underneath the top clamp. If you're just taking a few strokes for a quick hone it's usually not a big deal. If you're doing relatively heavy removal for whatever reason, it can be a big deal.

[J. Greg Jones]

It’s all good. I understand that the jig does not work well for everyone. I myself even mentioned earlier that chisels will work much better in the optional narrow (side clamp) attachment. I rarely use mine these days for anything but skewed blades. However, it doesn’t not work for everyone either.

My latest comment was to address a different issue, and that is how the micro-bevel feature works. It does not, as suggested, cant the blade to one side in order to put a skewed micro-bevel on one side of the blade. That would indeed be an egregious design flaw.

[Simon MacGowen]

It's even simpler than that Greg - the blade, chisel, etc. just slips.

The flaw in the design has nothing to do with the roller, cam, wheel or any of the related parts, it's the top clamp that is to blame. This is why others have suggested using sandpaper to hold whatever is being honed more firmly .

Before I took up freehand sharpening, I used the MkI and later the MKII jigs for on and off for 3 or 4 years. I still use the MKII for skew blades or back bevels. I have seen comments about slipping with the MKII though I never experienced it, no even once -- blades or chisels. The skew blades are narrow and shorter than the regular plane blades, still no issues with slipping.

I can only guess that, other than any manufacturing defects, the problem of slipping has a lot to do with user technique or error rather than a design flaw. The design is fine including the clamp, cam and roller, but the jig has its limitations. it is not uncommon that when sharpening (or sawing), many untrained or less experienced woodworkers use a lot of force, instead of letting the stone (or the saw's teeth) do the job. Even, steady finger pressure on the MKII would not cause any slips, and the sharpening won't take longer time than a bull dog approach. The over use of force by woodworkers in handling their tools is evident every time I pick up a plane used by some others, and find the plane's knob is tightened like welded.

Simon

[Phil Gaudio]

conveniunt autem dissentio:) (sorry, could not find a Latin smiley face)

[Brian Hale]

One issue that hasn't been addressed ( unless i missed it when skipping all the non germane jig bashing comments ) is the importance of even clamping pressure. Both sides need to be tightened with equal pressure or the blade will pivot with the slightest pressure. This has caught me several times and even caused me to set the jig aside for a time. Once realized and accounted for the jig performs Very well.

And i agree, using adhesive backed sandpaper, 220 grit in my case, on the clamp bar helps prevent slippage.

For chisels, particularly narrow ones, the narrow blade attachment can be a big help.

Like most every other jig or machine this jig has a personality and once you get to know it you'll be pleased you bought it. I'll touch up an edge free hand several times, usually 1200 / 8000 diamond stone and strop before re-establishing a flat square edge using the jig. It takes less than a minute to clamp the blade and get to work on a stone and there's no need to clean my hands before getting back to work.

Brian :)

[Jessica de Boer]

Someone asked how I sharpen. Here's a screenshot from a youtube video (not mine). I hold the blade between my thumb and index finger of my right hand, a bit higher up then this guy. My middle finger, ring finger and pinky support the neck. The grip with my right hand is relaxed, it's just for support. I put pressure on the bevel with my left hand index finger in the middle of the blade and my finger almost touches the stone. It's very easy to lower the angle over time because the jigane is very soft so you want to concentrate the pressure on the hagane. It's very easy to tell with a Japanese chisel where you're putting the pressure because the jigane feels different on a stone. When I primarily feel the jigane hitting the stone I just lift the chisel with my right hand until I can feel most of the pressure is on the hagane. I then lock my right hand in place and all the work is done by my left hand index finger pressing down on the bevel.

https://i.imgur.com/36FV46z.jpg

[Warren Mickley]

Jessica, I hope you don't lock wrists and arms etc, and sway your whole body like some.

[Jim Koepke]

Jessica, I hope you don't lock wrists and arms etc, and sway your whole body like some.

Isn't that for sharpening gouges? (the Mary May method?)

jtk

[phil harold]

Micro bevel?
would that be a lot smaller than the original poster's picture?

[Jessica de Boer]

Jessica, I hope you don't lock wrists and arms etc, and sway your whole body like some.

No, I do not.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

No, I do not.

I never knew that was a thing until i saw Chris Swartz do it on the Woodwright Shop (TV Show). It was fun to watch. I think that I would fail miserably at it.

I hollow grind using my Tormek and then it is pretty easy for me to firmly and properly place the blade onto the stone.

Jessica, my real question for you.... I assume that you do not hollow grind yet have no problems registering the blade on the stone correctly.

[Jessica de Boer]

Jessica, my real question for you.... I assume that you do not hollow grind yet have no problems registering the blade on the stone correctly.

Hollow grinding is a big nono with Japanese chisels. I have absolutely no problem registering the blade on the stone correctly. But I've been sharpening like this since I was 14 years old. That's 22 years now. I have chisels that have never seen a bench grinder and the angle is still at 30 degrees.

This is a close up photo of the reflection of a straight line on the bevel. As you can see the reflection is also perfectly straight which in turn means the bevel is perfectly flat.
https://i.imgur.com/doRJ0Y9.jpg

[Prashun Patel]

Op, one thing that I notice with this jig is that it is easy to apply uneven clamping pressure on narrow chisels because there is so much space between the edge and the clamp point. It’s the same as vise tacking.

It is also easier to knock narrow chisels out of square during the sharpening because the area being held is so small compared to the projection length.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hollow grinding is a big nono with Japanese chisels. I have absolutely no problem registering the blade on the stone correctly. But I've been sharpening like this since I was 14 years old. That's 22 years now. I have chisels that have never seen a bench grinder and the angle is still at 30 degrees.


Makes sense to me. I only own one Japanese Chisel and it is in horrid shape. Not sure if I can bring it back to life or not (it went through two hurricanes and was ignored). I would have dumped it onto my Tormek and run a hollow grind if you had not just stated that this was a big nono. Clearly I have a lot to learn so thanks for that information. Will see if the chisel can be saved. Not sure I am willing to take the time to fix it; and I have fixed some things in very bad shape.

Nice picture, by the way. I am impressed.

I have a lot of difficulty holding exactly where I want it. I excel at many things, but, this particular skill defies me. I really need to find people near me who excel at this and have them evaluate me while I fail at it.

[Derek Cohen]

I would like an explanation why hollow grinding Japanese chisels is a "no-no". I have been hollow grinding cheapish Iyoroi chisels for 20 years without ill effects. I am careful to not let the steel heat up. Much of this time has been using a Tormek. The edge does not chip. I do not see the iron backing reduced in any significant way.

Out of deference to tradition, I hone my Koyamaichi and Kiyohisa chisels with flat bevels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I would like an explanation why hollow grinding Japanese chisels is a "no-no". I have been hollow grinding cheapish Iyoroi chisels for 20 years without ill effects. I am careful to not let the steel heat up. Much of this time has been using a Tormek. The edge does not chip. I do not see the iron backing reduced in any significant way.

Out of deference to tradition, I hone my Koyamaichi and Kiyohisa chisels with flat bevels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It often causes the hard steel to relax away from the iron, bellying the back. If I have to grind a plane iron during setup then I’m often doing a second round of ura-dashi.

It’s rare that I do it, and practically never after they’re fully setup.

It May have no effect on the Iyoroi becuase the iron is not that soft, it’s very noticeable when used with very soft iron.

[James Pallas]

This is my experiment over the years. Jigs in general register off of the flat side of a chisel. This includes the eclipse, which is shown, and the Veritas mk2 that I also own. In doing so that is where registration is obtained. If there is a discrepancy in thickness fro the front to the back of the blade there will be a difference in how the bevel is formed. When the blade is placed on the stone and the wheel is kept tight against the stone than the bevel will be formed coplaner to the registered back. If pressure is placed at the bevel and rocked to meet the stone you have a 4 point unstable arrangement with one side of the wheel raised up. Now the bevel will not be coplaner with the back. If you now try to form a secondary bevel and press lighter, which we tend to do, the secondary will not look equal to the main bevel. It does not take much. I would have used a chisel for the demo but all of mine are freehand and would be slightly off from a jig. I hope the photos explain it some. And yes that is an original eclipse. Looks new doesn't it. It rarely gets use.
Jim

[ken hatch]

This is my experiment over the years. Jigs in general register off of the flat side of a chisel. This includes the eclipse, which is shown, and the Veritas mk2 that I also own. In doing so that is where registration is obtained. If there is a discrepancy in thickness fro the front to the back of the blade there will be a difference in how the bevel is formed. When the blade is placed on the stone and the wheel is kept tight against the stone than the bevel will be formed coplaner to the registered back. If pressure is placed at the bevel and rocked to meet the stone you have a 4 point unstable arrangement with one side of the wheel raised up. Now the bevel will not be coplaner with the back. If you now try to form a secondary bevel and press lighter, which we tend to do, the secondary will not look equal to the main bevel. It does not take much. I would have used a chisel for the demo but all of mine are freehand and would be slightly off from a jig. I hope the photos explain it some. And yes that is an original eclipse. Looks new doesn't it. It rarely gets use.
Jim

Jim,

I have one of those as well and like yours it gets little use. I keep it for nostalgia reasons but if I were to want to use a jig it would be the first I'd try. BTW, I tried the new LN Eclipse rip off and while well made (as are most things sold by LN) it was still a jig. I gave it to a friend to put in his grandson's tool chest.

ken

[Jessica de Boer]

I have been hollow grinding cheapish Iyoroi chisels for 20 years without ill effects.

I think it's fair to assume their not as hard as my oire and atsu-nomis. When you have a thin layer of steel with a hardness of 66HRc the strength is seriously compromised by hollow grinding. A large piece can even break off from one wrong blow with a mallet.

[Derek Cohen]

Jessica and Brian

Here is a photo of two hollow ground nomi ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/FittingTheLidHinges_html_2c4e8a78.jpg

I've used these a decade or more and they get struck with a gennou, sometimes one that is 375gm. I have never experienced an edge chipping.

There was a time when I hollow ground Koyamaichi chisels, which were used to dovetail hard Australian timbers. They never chipped either. The only reason I stopped doing so on these chisels was to follow tradition, and not because I was concerned about the steel.

To be clear, the grinding is only done on a 10" (closer to 8 1/2" these days) wheel on a Tormek, which runs wet and cool.

Others I know who follow this method include Jim Krenov and David Charlesworth. Now I am not suggesting that everyone throw caution to the winds and hollow grind their nomi. I am suggesting that it does not look that black and white to me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

I grind my Japanese chisels with a 25 degree primary bevel on a WorkSharp and then put a higher angle secondary bevel. I use those chisels for a variety of tasks, including chopping waste for dovetails. No problem with the edges. They will eventually get dull but they don't dull quickly and the type of dulling is essentially the same as when I used to sharpen them with a high angle flat bevel.

Mike

[Jessica de Boer]

The only reason I stopped doing so on these chisels was to follow tradition, and not because I was concerned about the steel.

My reason is tradition as well I guess. My father was taught how to sharpen his Japanese tools by old timers in Japan. He passed it on to me and it has always worked well for me.

How hard are your chisels by the way? A lower hardness makes for a tougher chisel so that might be the reason they tolerate a hollow grind. I know from experience that a maximum hardness white steel #1 doesn't like it. I seriously damaged one of my dad's Ichihiro oire-nomis with a hollow grind when I was young and inexperienced. Your tools have no problem with it but I'm not taking any chances with mine as they are also made with maximum hardness white steel #1.

[Robert Engel]

Re: the comment about hollow grinding. No, it is not "necessary". But it helps (registers angle/decreases wedge effect/speeds up honing) "Necessary" qualified: personally I can't imagine a shop without one. What if you chip out an edge? Or want to grind a chisel or iron to a different angle?

I started out with the jigs and after trying freehand sharpening just once, I, like the others realized the learning curve is pretty low and the whole process is much quicker for me. Plus for me its quite satisfying.

[Jessica de Boer]

Re: the comment about hollow grinding. personally I can't imagine a shop without one. What if you chip out an edge? Or want to grind a chisel or iron to a different angle?

I do have Tormek but it's just for some old Stanley chisels that get used for very rough work and sometimes one of my plane blades.

[John Schtrumpf]

Re: the comment about hollow grinding. No, it is not "necessary". But it helps (registers angle/decreases wedge effect/speeds up honing) "Necessary" qualified: personally I can't imagine a shop without one. What if you chip out an edge? Or want to grind a chisel or iron to a different angle?
...
I don't have a grinder, but I do have a coarse/fine crystolon stone, as well as my water stones going down to 80 grit. For chipped edges I usually just freehand on an appropriately coarse stone. For changing bevel angles or a major camber, I usually start on the 80 grit water stone with the MkII honing guide (I have both heads and bases).

[Brian Holcombe]

Jessica and Brian

Here is a photo of two hollow ground nomi ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/FittingTheLidHinges_html_2c4e8a78.jpg

I've used these a decade or more and they get struck with a gennou, sometimes one that is 375gm. I have never experienced an edge chipping.

There was a time when I hollow ground Koyamaichi chisels, which were used to dovetail hard Australian timbers. They never chipped either. The only reason I stopped doing so on these chisels was to follow tradition, and not because I was concerned about the steel.

To be clear, the grinding is only done on a 10" (closer to 8 1/2" these days) wheel on a Tormek, which runs wet and cool.

Others I know who follow this method include Jim Krenov and David Charlesworth. Now I am not suggesting that everyone throw caution to the winds and hollow grind their nomi. I am suggesting that it does not look that black and white to me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If it works for you and the work you do, great.

I don’t do it because my chisels are general purpose and I’m sometimes cutting very fine work, other times I’m cutting light timber joints in soft and hard woods. They get a workout because deep pocket joinery pushes them much closer to the limit.

If you’re chopping out joints with those and they’re holding up, that’s impressive but if you’re using them for lighter duty work that is fine but you may want to change the bevel shape if you get into something requiring heavy chopping.

[Derek Cohen]

Brian, you may recall a review I did back in 2013 comparing 4 chisel steels (Koyamaichi white steel, Veritas PM-V11, Blue Spruce A2, and Stanley O1). There was a fifth chisel that was also in play (used to clean up when a chisel failed), a Funmatsu-Nezumi-Haisu (which is PM-HSS).

All these 1/4" and 3/4" chisels were used with a hollow grind.

The task involved chopping into the sockets of dovetails that made up the panels for a chest. The wood here was 3/4" thick Curly Marri, from Western Australia. This stuff is incredibly hard. At the time I called it "beautiful firewood". The article is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

Here is the Koyamaichi ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared_html_9ca1d34.jpg

Here is the Funmatsu-Nezumi-Haisu ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared_html_3e3407fc.jpg

Here are the boards at the end of time ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared_html_m16132a53.jpg


The relevant factor for this thread was that the Japanese chisels, with their laminated blades, did not show an inkling of chipping at the end of time (or at any stage of my ownership). To this day, the Funmatsu-Nezumi-Haisu continues with a hollow grind because the steel is soooo hard, that trying to sharpen a full bevel is very frustrating.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I wonder how one would know that a Japanese chisel that was ground on a grinder had not had its temper compromised. I believe that the tempering heat for such chisels is low enough that it does not show oxidation colors. Over heating on the grinder would cause the chisel to become tougher and less brittle.

I also wonder how much you actually use Japanese chisels. Probably not nearly as much as some other respondents to this thread. I would have guessed you used A2 or Pmv11 chisels, based on previous comments.

Marri is "incredibly hard"? I had he impression it is not even as hard as jarrah.

[Derek Cohen]

Gee Warren, compliments always.


I wonder how one would know that a Japanese chisel that was ground on a grinder had not had its temper compromised.

Did you read the part where I mentioned "use a Tormek". I very much doubt a wet grinder could affect temper.


I also wonder how much you actually use Japanese chisels. Probably not nearly as much as some other respondents to this thread. I would have guessed you used A2 or Pmv11 chisels, based on previous comments.

Warren, how about posting some of your work here? I have never seen a piece you have built. Blow us away ..


Marri is "incredibly hard"? I had he impression it is not even as hard as jarrah.

That's Jarrah with a capital.

Jarrah's Janka is 8.5Kn.

Marri's Janka is 9.0Kn

for comparison - American Oak is 6.0Kn

see: http://www.borthwick.com.au/species/hardness-rating

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

We don't actually have a species called "American Oak". I don't know what you are referring to. Just here in Pennsylvania we have 16 species of oak which vary considerably in hardness. And even within a species there is a wide range of hardness depending on environmental factors.

We do have timbers that are harder than 9.0Kn in Pennsylvania.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, we have timbers in Oz that go to 15.0, but that is not the point. The point is that you never reply to anything I post without it being a criticism or negation. There is nothing constructive either in your comments.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

White 1 and K120 chisels with a low temper (left hard) are not the same animal as white 2, blue 2, blue 1 or HSS. The chisels I use are similar in temper to Kiyohisa Kamon, which are his hardest models. They may well survive with a hollow grind, but I'll never know because I wouldn't put them to a grinder. Some of them are now impossible to replace and others are about a 2 year wait period, so I'll keep doing what works best.

I break my work out in categories and take an approach based on how difficult the work is going to be, the inputs that help me decide are:

-If the sides are still attached on both sides (not sawn).

-If the depth is great

-If the wood is tough and does not split easily

-If the wood is hard and dense

-If the wood contains abrasive materials

-If the wood features hard and soft areas. (like doug fir)

-If the work requires harder chopping with heavier weighted genno.

-If the pocket is narrow or short, and yet still deep.

[Jessica de Boer]

White 1 and K120 chisels with a low temper (left hard) are not the same animal as white 2, blue 2, blue 1 or HSS. The chisels I use are similar in temper to Kiyohisa Kamon, which are his hardest models. They may well survive with a hollow grind, but I'll never know because I wouldn't put them to a grinder.

Like I said in an earlier post, I know what happens when you hollow grind a white steel #1 chisel at maximum hardness. Having a pretty large corner break off is not something I want to have happen to mine.

By the way, according to my father there's more at play than just the strength of the bevel. How the force of a hammer blow is transmitted right down to the edge is also a part of the equation.

[James Pallas]

I realize that this thread has gotten of the subject, jigs. I do have some questions however.
Why do Japanese chisels have to have higher bevel angles?
Is the only way to sharpen a Japanese chisel freehand?
Why do you have to have another special chisel to clean mortise bottoms?
Why can you not hollow grind?
Why is power sharpening generally out of bounds, can you you a power grinder if it grinds flat bevels?
Why does one need to use metal hammers?
Is all of this just traditional like wearing jeans and Cowboy hats in Texas?

This is what I get from reading many posts here and other places. I did buy a couple of Japanese chisels. Not cheap ones by any means. They cost as much as Veritas PMV11 chisels. I didn’t care for them because I found them handle heavy. I found the same with some western chisels. I also didn’t find any magic in them which is the same for other chisels I don’t care for like ones made from A2.
I also see that some hollow grind with success and use grinders with success.
I amseriously asking these questions and as far as chisels go, I’ve no dog in the hunt either way.
Jim

[Jessica de Boer]

I realize that this thread has gotten of the subject, jigs. I do have some questions however.
Why do Japanese chisels have to have higher bevel angles?
Because the steel is much harder than that of a mass produced Western chisel it's more brittle. It wants to chip at low angles when there isn't enough metal behind the edge to support the edge.


Is the only way to sharpen a Japanese chisel freehand?
For me it is. But Derek has success with a hollow grind. I suspect this is because they aren't maximum hardness white steel #1.


Why do you have to have another special chisel to clean mortise bottoms?
The Japanese have a specialised chisel for almost any task. It doesn't mean you have to buy them all. I use an old swan neck chisel to clean out the bottom of a mortise.


Why can you not hollow grind?
See my second answer. Some of lower hardness are apparently fine with it.


Why is power sharpening generally out of bounds
Japanese chisels are tempered at a much lower heat. A typical Stanley chisel is tempered somewhere around 600 degrees Celsius if I remember correctly while a typical Japanese chisel is tempered at 200-300 degrees. Some like Brian and I have are tempered at 150 degrees I believe, maybe even lower. Sharpening a Japanese chisel on a bench grinder carries the risk of quickly overheating it ruining the temper.


can you you a power grinder if it grinds flat bevels?
Makita has a power grinder for flat bevels. It has a water reservoir that drips water on the disk to prevent overheating. It's this one:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71CgedoLEzL._SL1000_.jpg


Why does one need to use metal hammers?
Is all of this just traditional like wearing jeans and Cowboy hats in Texas?
I use a wooden mallet and many carpenters in Japan as well. My dad swears by a gennou.


This is what I get from reading many posts here and other places. I did buy a couple of Japanese chisels. Not cheap ones by any means. They cost as much as Veritas PMV11 chisels. I didn’t care for them because I found them handle heavy. I found the same with some western chisels. I also didn’t find any magic in them which is the same for other chisels I don’t care for like ones made from A2.
I also see that some hollow grind with success and use grinders with success.
I amseriously asking these questions and as far as chisels go, I’ve no dog in the hunt either way.
Jim
Ony of my employees doesn't like them either. She likes Pfeil chisels which I think are garbage. To each their own.

[Brian Holcombe]

Replies in bold:


I realize that this thread has gotten of the subject, jigs. I do have some questions however.
Why do Japanese chisels have to have higher bevel angles?


They don't, bevel angles depend on the work at hand and the edge at hand.

Is the only way to sharpen a Japanese chisel freehand?

No, you can use a jig if you prefer.

Why do you have to have another special chisel to clean mortise bottoms?

Only if you want them scraped flat.

Why can you not hollow grind?

Two pages on this already.

Why is power sharpening generally out of bounds, can you you a power grinder if it grinds flat bevels?

You can power hone/grind and grinders are available with water/flat grinding. The smiths often use very large diameter wheels, then presumably flatten the bevel.

Why does one need to use metal hammers?

Preference.

Is all of this just traditional like wearing jeans and Cowboy hats in Texas?

These devices have reached an apex of progress, much like 18th century western hand tools. They're honed through years of a constant feedback and improvement loop. I'm certain they can be further improved upon, but likely that will be a minor progress from here rather than sweeping change.

This is what I get from reading many posts here and other places. I did buy a couple of Japanese chisels. Not cheap ones by any means. They cost as much as Veritas PMV11 chisels. I didn’t care for them because I found them handle heavy. I found the same with some western chisels. I also didn’t find any magic in them which is the same for other chisels I don’t care for like ones made from A2.
I also see that some hollow grind with success and use grinders with success.
I amseriously asking these questions and as far as chisels go, I’ve no dog in the hunt either way.
Jim

[James Pallas]

Thank you Brian and Jessica. Here is what I get from your answers. Chisels are mostly a mater of preference. Japanese chisels have a tendency to chip if not used or sharpened in a traditional fashion. To be truthful on my part that is about what I expected. Use what you like and are accustomed to using. I like Pheil carving tools the steel seems well suited for carving both in ease of sharpening and edge holding. I have one Pheil bevel edge chisel that I don’t care for so much.
Jim

[Edwin Santos]

Very informative responses Jessica and Brian!

I have a question to add - is there any reasonable way to tell what type of steel was used to make a particular Japanese chisel?
I see both of you referring to (I think) blacksmith names. I have some chisels I bought in Tokyo from what appeared to be a good tool store, but they spoke little English and I know very little Japanese.

This discussion has me really wondering what the steel type might be in these chisels. I will say they take a very fine edge, sharper and more durable than my O1 chisels. But I'm not sure they're as epic as some of the high pedigree chisels I see described here because I was dovetailing in some white oak recently which seemed to wear them down.

In Japan I noticed a lot of tools changing hands at flea markets and surely there must be ways for a buyer to answer the question of steel type and know what they are getting.

Thanks very much, Edwin

[Jessica de Boer]

In Japan I noticed a lot of tools changing hands at flea markets and surely there must be ways for a buyer to answer the question of steel type and know what they are getting.

My father's old co-worker mentioned this to me as well in a conversation (he's like a walking encyclopedia on everything to do with Japanese tools). I asked him the same question and he told me they care more about the maker than the steel. Another thing he mentioned is that what is sold in Japan domestically is generally of better quality than what is exported overseas.

[William Fretwell]

I have a variety of chisels to match to different tasks, I have no difficulty sharpening any of them. I did buy a couple of Japanese chisels some years ago in a Lee Valley clearance bin ($20 each I believe), they have become among my most used despite being what I can only assume is ‘entry level’.

The curiosity they create is wondering how good the white #1 chisels would be or would I notice the difference? It does seem hard to know what or how to buy some more, my on line efforts end in frustration. The idea of parting with a fair amount of money when you don’t really know what you are getting is far more troublesome than sharpening!

Perhaps the Japanese face the same dilemma given the variety even within the steel types and buying the ‘smith’ just simplifies the whole process, denoting a certain value to the chisels at the very least. If they just export the rubbish like the French do with their wine and cheese then I am not encouraged.

[Jessica de Boer]

\The curiosity they create is wondering how good the white #1 chisels would be or would I notice the difference?
You will certainly notice the difference between a well forged white steel #1 chisel and an entry level one. You will notice it the first time sharpening it before use. You will also notice it will stay sharp longer and it will be tougher.


It does seem hard to know what or how to buy some more, my on line efforts end in frustration. The idea of parting with a fair amount of money when you don’t really know what you are getting is far more troublesome than sharpening.

A good quality chisel doesn't have to be expensive. Mine are from Jindaiko-honpo and are priced very reasonably. These are the oire-nomis I have. They are professional quality, white steel #1 chisels. https://www.jindaiko-honpo.jp/shop/products/detail/11

Another option is to contact Stanley Covington. He is well known on this forum and lots of members have bought tools from him. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you his e-mail address.

[Vincent Tai]

Japanese chisels are tempered at a much lower heat. A typical Stanley chisel is tempered somewhere around 600 degrees Celsius if I remember correctly while a typical Japanese chisel is tempered at 200-300 degrees. Some like Brian and I have are tempered at 150 degrees I believe, maybe even lower. Sharpening a Japanese chisel on a bench grinder carries the risk of quickly overheating it ruining the temper.


Just nit picking; some errors perhaps from Fahrenheit - Celsius mixup here. A Stanley chisel tempered at 600 Celsius, 1112 Fahrenheit, the steel would basically have a sub critical anneal at this point and just start ever so faintly glowing. In other words softened to a state people want for when making the chisel not using. 600 Fahrenheit still seems a little unlikely as the steel is at 55 Rc ish then, but maybe they are that soft, I haven't owned one.

300 Celsius (572 Fahrenheit), a perfectly hardened WS#1 chisel would now be at most hitting 58 rc, more likely 55-6. Too soft in everyone's books. Well maybe not the guy prying pain can lids with his chisels.

Upper bound for Japanese chisels would probably be 232 Celsius (450 Fahrenheit) (an approximate number of the upper temperatures), and thats getting high for (good & hard) Japanese tools in my books. Though many respectable J tools are probably tempered at this temperature or a bit higher. Hardness then would be just above typical A2 WW tool. The 180 Celsius to 232 Celsius seems to be a good approximation. 150 Celsius we start going into the very hard. I believe the chisels you and Brian have are closer to tempered at 100 Celsius; I remember Brian saying something about they were similar to Kiyohisa's Kamon line (in terms of hardness). The very very very hard.

A couple things I've just learned, I may be Canadian but I like Fahrenheit for steel. I can't spell it very consistently though.

[Bruce Haugen]

For me it is. But Derek has success with a hollow grind. I suspect this is because they aren't maximum hardness white steel #1.




Not Derek, and I don't have a dog in this fight, but he has stated he grinds with a water-cooled Tormek with a 10" wheel. That wheel is going to produce a hollow that is just barely hollow at all.



Ony of my employees doesn't like them either. She likes Pfeil chisels which I think are garbage. To each their own.


George Wilson likes Pfeil chisels, too.

[Jessica de Boer]

Lol, I have it all mixed up but in my defence I did say if I remember correctly :P

I've never used Kiyohisa Kamon but I know my Jindaikos are virtually identical in hardness to my dad's Ichihiros.

[William Fretwell]

Stan stopped selling. The store in Japan only wants to sell to Japan but thanks for the chisel info.

[Jessica de Boer]

George Wilson likes Pfeil chisels, too.

Is that supposed to mean something to me? I don't know who that is.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Is that supposed to mean something to me? I don't know who that is.

George is not widely known, but is a superb professional craftsman, who was with Colonial Williamsburg, making many musical instruments, along with furniture & cabinetry. He used to post here on SMC, and I cannot answer why he doesn't anymore.

[Jessica de Boer]

George is not widely known, but is a superb professional craftsman, who was with Colonial Williamsburg, making many musical instruments, along with furniture & cabinetry. He used to post here on SMC, and I cannot answer why he doesn't anymore.

Now imagine how known he is in Europe. Posting a name of someone like him is pointless to someone like me. It's the same as saying: "A random wood worker in a random town somewhere in the US like Pfeil chisels." It really doesn't mean anything to me.

[Bruce Haugen]

Now imagine how known he is in Europe. Posting a name of someone like him is pointless to someone like me. It's the same as saying: "A random wood worker in a random town somewhere in the US like Pfeil chisels." It really doesn't mean anything to me.

Well, now, since your location isn't given and since you're posting on a site hosted in the US, silly of me to think you would have some familiarity with George Wilson. Take a gander at this:https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108372-Compass-for-David-Brinkley&highlight=brinkley and this: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108545-A-17th-C-Italian-Style-Marquetry-Guitar-I-made&highlight=guitar

[Edwin Santos]

George Wilson likes Pfeil chisels, too.


Is that supposed to mean something to me? I don't know who that is.

I believe he used to play for the Detroit Lions if that helps any. But then I know American football is not as popular in Europe so I can't fault you for not knowing that.

[Bruce Haugen]

I believe he used to play for the Detroit Lions if that helps any. But then I know American football is not as popular in Europe so I can't fault you for not knowing that.

I’m fairly sure the George Wilson who posted here didn’t play for the Lions.

Here is Mr Wilson who played football404692

Here is George Wilson from his Colonial Williamsburg days: 404693
He’s the one on the right.

[Chris Parks]

Chris,

Monthly? That is some good iron.

ken

No, it is indicative of a hobbyist who only works at his hobby sporadically. I am in the worshop doing stuff every day but serious woodwork is not done evey day and chisels are not used even weekly.

[Gary Ragatz]

I thought George Wilson was the neighbor in the Dennis the Menace TV show.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5c/Veteran_character_actor_Joseph_Kearns.jpg/220px-Veteran_character_actor_Joseph_Kearns.jpg

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If you go to youtube and search “Harpsichord and violin building in the 18th century” you will find a four part documentary that covers George making instruments at colonial Williamsburg.

[Lee Schierer]

George is not widely known, but is a superb professional craftsman, who was with Colonial Williamsburg, making many musical instruments, along with furniture & cabinetry. He used to post here on SMC, and I cannot answer why he doesn't anymore.

George posted just last month. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?270813-Antique-Patternmakers-Lathe

[John Schtrumpf]

... It's the same as saying: "A random wood worker in a random town somewhere in the US like Pfeil chisels." ...

I like Pfeil chisels :)

[steven c newman]

So..how does this all help the OP in sharpening HIS chisels? Hmmmm

I'd join in, but 1) too busy using my chisels right now..2) forgot to buy the popcorn, salt, and butter...3) almost laughing too hard to type...

Just another Sharpening Thread.....S. O. S. O....

[Edwin Santos]

Not Derek, and I don't have a dog in this fight, but he has stated he grinds with a water-cooled Tormek with a 10" wheel. That wheel is going to produce a hollow that is just barely hollow at all.



George Wilson likes Pfeil chisels, too.


I’m fairly sure the George Wilson who posted here didn’t play for the Lions.

Here is Mr Wilson who played football404692

Here is George Wilson from his Colonial Williamsburg days: 404693
He’s the one on the right.

Thanks for clearing that up.
I must say, that George Wilson is one good looking cat with a winning smile. I'd seriously consider any chisels he endorses.

[Simon MacGowen]

Just another Sharpening Thread.....S. O. S. O....

Indeed.

Telling me James Krenov loved the xxx brand dovetail saw or Sam Maloof used only the yyy brand rasps in his work wouldn't change my mind about those brands if I had used them and formed my opinions on them. I trust my own hands-on experience....

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

Indeed.

Telling me James Krenov loved the xxx brand dovetail saw or Sam Maloof used only the yyy brand rasps in his work wouldn't change my mind about those brands if I had used them and formed my opinions on them. I trust my own hands-on experience....

Simon

This seems to be the back bone of every discussion that follows a sharpening question.

Folks not only tend to stay with what works best for their individual use, many become evangelists for their favorites.

Amazing how sharpening discussions always seems to get in to the range of four pages of posts.

jtk

[Julie Moriarty]

I'm a novice and am looking for insight into what I'm doing wrong.

I'm using the Veritas Mk II sharpening jig. After flattening the back, I'm setting a 25 degree bevel first on the 300 and then 1000 stone. When I go to do the micro-bevel it's clear that something is not straight based on the results. I've gone through the process several times with consistent results.

I've double checked that the chisel is sits square to the fence (both before & after), and am tightening the clamp knobs evenly. I'm applying even pressure to both sides of the chisel.

What am I doing wrong?
I have the same jig. And have had the same problem. IMHO, it's a poor design. Getting the angle right and the blade square is a pain. One of these days I'm going to buy the LN jig.

[Bruce Haugen]

This seems to be the back bone of every discussion that follows a sharpening question.

Folks not only tend to stay with what works best for their individual use, many become evangelists for their favorites.

Amazing how sharpening discussions always seems to get in to the range of four pages of posts.

jtk

While that is oh, so true, Jim, an endorsement from a noted woodworker is a valid place to start. With experience, it’s possible to make your own judgment about what suits you best. But where are you supposed to start when you know nothing? In the early 80’s I saw that Tage Frid used a 15 amp Makita router, so I got one. That was about 35 years ago. I still use it on nearly every project.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I think that is how George came into the conversation. One of the comments could be read to suggest the Pfeil chisels are junk.

Many of us have seen the work George has posted over the years, and if he thought they were good quality, that certainly would mean more to me than a random comment by a random European.

[Simon MacGowen]

.

Many of us have seen the work George has posted over the years, and if he thought they were good quality, that certainly would mean more to me than a random comment by a random European.

This is exactly how tool companies want people to think...if I show a photo or video in which a "celebritiy woodworker or Instagramer" uses my tool, people will buy it. Note that a celebrity Instagramer is not necessarily a highly trained or skilled woodworker these days.

Simon

[Gary Ragatz]

I think that is how George came into the conversation. One of the comments could be read to suggest the Pfeil chisels are junk.

Many of us have seen the work George has posted over the years, and if he thought they were good quality, that certainly would mean more to me than a random comment by a random European.

Of course, if the random European seems to know her way around a wood shop, the comment might carry more weight.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?270336-Some-random-things-that-left-my-shop-the-past-couple-of-months&p=2879028#post2879028

[Simon MacGowen]

While that is oh, so true, Jim, an endorsement from a noted woodworker is a valid place to start. With experience, it’s possible to make your own judgment about what suits you best. But where are you supposed to start when you know nothing? In the early 80’s I saw that Tage Frid used a 15 amp Makita router, so I got one. That was about 35 years ago. I still use it on nearly every project.

That was 35 years ago. In this social media dominant world, I don't care what other "noted woodworkers" say. Many tool companies target "noted woodworkers" and hand them free machines to promote...oops, to use. A review by an unknown woodworker means more to me than an Instagramer or youtuber who has 81,366 followers.

Simon

[Edwin Santos]

Not Derek, and I don't have a dog in this fight, but he has stated he grinds with a water-cooled Tormek with a 10" wheel. That wheel is going to produce a hollow that is just barely hollow at all.



George Wilson likes Pfeil chisels, too.


Indeed.

Telling me James Krenov loved the xxx brand dovetail saw or Sam Maloof used only the yyy brand rasps in his work wouldn't change my mind about those brands if I had used them and formed my opinions on them. I trust my own hands-on experience....

Simon

Simon,
Since you mentioned James Krenov, I thought I'd share the story of the time I met him during a two day lecture he gave in the bench room at College of the Redwoods. It was not super formal, for two days he just hung out with everyone and talked on all manner of subjects directly or indirectly related to his work, the school, woodworking in general. One of the major themes that he went way out of his way to belabor was the recommendation that all woodworkers stop focusing on particular tool brands and models. Certainly there was a clear warning to stay away from tool acquisition syndrome. His argument was that unless you bought something that was quite obviously junk, the other 90% of the tool universe was all decent enough to do good work and the differences between these tools is inconsequential in comparison to the impact of improving your own skills and technique knowledge as a woodworker. So focus on the latter and you will be able to do magic with most any tool. And of course a big part of his focus was design and grain reading, which has nothing to do with tools.

Indeed his own set of chisels was sitting there and I must say they were a Heinz 57 collection of mongrels. I don't think even he knew the brand of many of them. They were all razor sharp though. He didn't know or care too much about sharpening stone brands or types. He showed his own two or three stones, one of which was a Carborundum type and another was an old black Arkansas stone he had since the 1950s. All his chisels and plane irons had a hollow bevel and to avoid overheating, they used a old hand crank grinding wheel at the school which was clamped to a bench! I did not come away from his lecture with a single brand name or model associated with any tool other than my recollection of their massive vintage Oliver band saw and the fact that all their plane irons came from Hock.

Now for the best part - after all the lecturing about letting go of tool fever and brand chasing, he calls a 15 minute break, and what does everyone do? They all start mingling and chatting about nothing other than tool brands and comparing Tormeks, jigs, steel types, this, that and the other.

Edwin

[Simon MacGowen]

Now for the best part - after all the lecturing about letting go of tool fever and brand chasing, he calls a 15 minute break, and what does everyone do? They all start mingling and chatting about nothing other than tool brands and comparing Tormeks, jigs, steel types, this, that and the other.

Edwin

Thanks for sharing your fascinating story, Edwin, and sure lucky you having had the chance to listen to his lecture in person. I have watched his hour-long lecture and read all his books, and indeed there has not been any mention of preference for brands. It is his love of rough lumber and description of how worked with it that drove me to work almost exclusively with rough wood and semi-rough lumber for all my projects.

Simon

[Edwin Santos]

Thanks for sharing your fascinating story, Edwin, and sure lucky you having had the chance to listen to his lecture in person. I have watched his hour-long lecture and read all his books, and indeed there has not been any mention of preference for brands. It is his love of rough lumber and description of how worked with it that drove me to work almost exclusively with rough wood and semi-rough lumber for all my projects.

Simon

Simon,
Well I thought you'd enjoy knowing you're in good company with the opinion you expressed in this thread.

I know we're off topic, but I wish I had had the good sense to go meet Sam Maloof when he was living. It would have been an inspiration for sure.
Many of these legendary woodworkers seem to have been self-made, down to earth people, very accessible. I know a veteran woodworker who, when in design school, became a great admirer of Wendell Castle who by this time had museum exhibitions of his work all around the world. So he musters the nerve to go see him and Castle was so flattered that he invited this (then) 19 year old kid to stay over at his house and sleep on the living room sofa which he did!

[Jessica de Boer]

Many of us have seen the work George has posted over the years, and if he thought they were good quality, that certainly would mean more to me than a random comment by a random European.
That's the problem with recommending tools on a US based forum, isn't it. Someone from the US can throw around names of American wood workers people from Europe have never heard of. This George is totally unknown to me and I suspect most other wood workers from Europe. The fact he likes Pfeil is completely irrelevant to me. The opposite is true as well. If I say Heinrich Werderaner, one of the best furniture makers I know, is a fan of Kirschen tools you'd think : "Who the hell is he and why should I believe him?"

[steven c newman]

Beorm: "Who are you?"
Gandalf: " I am Gandalf, Gandalf the Gray.."
Beorm: "Never heard of him...."

[David Silverson]

The only sharpening I do with a jig is to put a high bevel on a bu plane blade that I hollow grind at 25*. How do you do it otherwise? I have tried and it is difficult.

[Simon MacGowen]

The only sharpening I do with a jig is to put a high bevel on a bu plane blade that I hollow grind at 25*. How do you do it otherwise? I have tried and it is difficult.

Why would a hollow grind make a difference in free hand sharpening (even at a high angle)? The way as seen in Rob Cosman's video should work likewise in a hollow grind. Or are you having difficulties holding and keeping the tool at a high angle while at the same pushing back and forth?

Simon

[David Silverson]

It’s not the hollow grind that is the difficulty. It’s taking a hollow grind of 25* and putting a 50* microbevel on it that is difficult to do freehand.

[Brian Holcombe]

https://youtu.be/s4r8N5Jvsgs
Here I’m sharpening by freehand method

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Ya know Derek, now that you have compromised your fine chisels with a hollow grind, I am happy to swap you for a set of stanleys (cost $9 for the set) with a factory fresh edge. On the plus side, you probably can't accidentally cut yourself with the factory edge! :-)

More seriously, I do appreciate the discourse from everyone. I feel like I learn much from these discussions.

As a side note, I do like build threads as well, they give me ideas (since Derek is prodding Warren to post some pictures).