Worst construction crew ever vs two old dudes and a ladder

[Malcolm Schweizer]

My neighbor is having his roof redone, which includes skinning over the old 1" solid wood underlayment with ply, then purlins on that, and then galvalum. (New code requirement- have to skin with ply if redoing an old roof.) Eight men have been working on this project for over a week. They start early in the morning and spend two hours smoking and yelling at each other, then about an hour of work, much of which is removing the blue tarp. They break during the heat of the day (no criticism for that part- normal for roof work) and come back. Two more hours of smoking and yelling at each other, then an hour or so of work, most of which is putting the blue tarp back on. They wear no hearing protection as they cut galvalum with circular saws. It is so loud that literally as I write I am wearing hearing protection- inside my house. I feel so bad for these guys' ears. Right now they have the ply and purlins up after well over a week of work for 8 men. Well- technically 7 men and one woman, but all she does is cuss and complain to the men. I'm assuming she is some sort of supervisor. She has quite a mouth on her. She is very talented at combining multiple words, very similar to the German language, except with greater vulgarity.

Meanwhile, the other neighbor has two old West Indian guys that in the same amount of time have completely replaced the roof on their detached building, built and painted a trellis connecting the two buildings, scraped and painted the smaller of the two buildings, and replaced some shutters. These poor guys worked through the heat of the day. My kitchen porch almost touches their roof, so I kept giving them water. These men have no vehicle. They show up at 7AM tools and ladder in hand, and work until dusk.

Quite the contrast.

[Frederick Skelly]

It's shocking. But I've seen almost exactly the same kind of nonsense myself. I never understood lazy. Work hard (like the 2 old guys) - get done faster and hopefully make more money. I've always appreciated the very strong work ethic my parents taught me. It has helped me immeasurably over the years.

As an aside, I recently read an article that claimed well over 50% of new college grads have never held a part time job. Not even cutting yards. It said we will have to teach them how to work and how to behave in a workplace. I think we start by putting them on a roofing crew for 3 mos over the summer, so they realize how lucky they are.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

It's shocking. But I've seen almost exactly the same kind of nonsense myself. I never understood lazy. Work hard (like the 2 old guys) - get done faster and hopefully make more money. I've always appreciated the very strong work ethic my parents taught me. It has helped me immeasurably over the years.

As an aside, I recently read an article that claimed well over 50% of new college grads have never held a part time job. Not even cutting yards. It said we will have to teach them how to work and how to behave in a workplace. I think we start by putting them on a roofing crew for 3 mos over the summer, so they realize how lucky they are.

I didn't know that statistic, but it's not surprising. I started working at a kennel at age 14 scooping poop and mopping pee. It was humbling to say the least.

My father-in-law has a roofing business. It is hard work. I should mention I do have high respect for roofers that do it right.

[Andrew Joiner]

Great story Malcolm.
I was lucky to learn my work ethic in the 1950's. My parents worked as kids through the depression. When I was 8 I made my own shoe shine kit and started my own business. 2 barber shops had adult men shining shoes in my midwestern city. I studied their business model and with my parents blessing, walked off to find a barber shop. The first 4 shops said"get lost kid". I must have been stubborn cause I kept going. The 5th shops owner said no, but one employee said " give the kid a chance". They allowed me to set up on the sidewalk.

I was so proud. I made good money for a kid. The biggest payment I got was learning how to work with paying customers and the value of work!
That barbershop is still there with the same name on the sign. My grandkids went on a trip and stopped there and took a pic. The're in front of the sign 59 years after I last shined shoes there! I guess they do
pay attention when I preach "work ethic":)

[Frank Pratt]

We had our roof done a few years ago. The house is 1400 sq ft & there's a 24 x 26 garage. The crew showed up after I left for work at 6:00 and when I came home sometime after 4:00 they were just doing the last of the clean up. They stripped the old shingles, put on ice & water shield, all new drip edge & new shingles. They did a great job & the cleanup was near perfect. The only thing I ever found on the ground was small shingle cutoff inside the base of a thick hedge 4 years later. The roofing company I used was not the low bidder.

[glenn bradley]

There are plenty of "when I was a kid' stories and the parents of our childhood looked at our lack-luster performance of youth with a similar view. That being said I still don't understand how rock music can be so good and what "kids" listen to today can be so bad :D.

Seriously though, here's my example . . . my "yard-guy"; I have always said that if you want to make some money just run a yard service where you actually show up when you are supposed to, do what you are supposed to and do is consistently. Alex does this. He does it for so many people that he owns a nicer house than me, drives a nicer car. A couple of his kids are still in college, the older is a successful businesswomen. He has pride in his work, values it for what it is and has no problem digging a hole for a plant and running a drip line to it despite his success. He is an example of having pride in what you do, working hard at it and teaching your children to do the same. We need more like him and the two old west-Indian guys.

[Marshall Harrison]

That no ear protection while cutting the galvalum explains the two hors of yelling.

[Lee Schierer]

I see many construction and landscaping workers doing their jobs without proper personal safety equipment such as safety glasses, dust masks and hearing protection. I see roofers on multi story buildings handling sheet good and roofing materials including metal with no safety harnesses, hats or long sleeve shirts.

[Bill Carey]

When I started as a carpenter apprentice in the late 60's, my 3rd or 4th day on the job the guy I was working with told me he had all the company big wigs showing up because the slab was a foot out of square and there was going to be this big discussion about it. He told me if he saw me standing around while he was talking to them he would fire me. So he gave me a list of things to do, and the guys showed up and I worked like crazy to make sure I got everything done. Well, who knew big wigs liked to talk so much, and I finished everything he had told me to do. Now what? So I grabbed a saw and a generator, broke the bands on a bunk of studs and proceeded to cut 3 inches off each one and stack them behind me. I could see he was watching me and getting aggravated so I worked faster. I must have cut 300 studs. The wigs left and he commenced to cuss me out royally - turns out that I had cut open a bunk of pre-cut studs. Man was he pissed. But later in the day he said "well, at least you did something". My motto to this day is Do Something.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

That no ear protection while cutting the galvalum explains the two hors of yelling.

I literally told my wife the same thing. It’s unbelievabe they can hear at all.

By the way, most of the construction crew are gray haired or starting to gray, so we can’t blame this one on the young guys. Some of these contractors bid themselves over their heads on roofing jobs down here and now they are hiring anyone they can find to get the job done. My roof actually needs to be redone (lived its lifespan) and I am waiting for the post-hurricane work to dry up so I can get a reliable crew.

[Lee Schierer]

My roof actually needs to be redone (lived its lifespan) and I am waiting for the post-hurricane work to dry up so I can get a reliable crew.

You should hire the two old dudes with the ladder.

[Bill Dufour]

You should hire the two old dudes with the ladder.

I agree and let them store the ladder overnight at your place until the job is done.
Bill

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You should hire the two old dudes with the ladder.


I agree and let them store the ladder overnight at your place until the job is done.
Bill

True! I can also let them use my ladders.

[Jim Andrew]

I was going to suggest hiring the 2 old guys with the ladder. Don't loan them junky ladders. When I was younger, I built houses, mostly from the concrete up. Although I would level the sand in the basement and garage, but tried not to screw up any concrete. Anyway I was framing a house by myself, and a young guy stopped by and wanted to know if I would hire him, so told him to bring his tape and a hammer and show up the next day. He showed up, but didn't offer to help, just wanted to watch. So I got him up on a ladder, handed him the end of a board and told him to nail it in place. He did try, but at noon we agreed to meet back at the job after lunch but never saw him again.

[Frederick Skelly]

I was going to suggest hiring the 2 old guys with the ladder. Don't loan them junky ladders. When I was younger, I built houses, mostly from the concrete up. Although I would level the sand in the basement and garage, but tried not to screw up any concrete. Anyway I was framing a house by myself, and a young guy stopped by and wanted to know if I would hire him, so told him to bring his tape and a hammer and show up the next day. He showed up, but didn't offer to help, just wanted to watch. So I got him up on a ladder, handed him the end of a board and told him to nail it in place. He did try, but at noon we agreed to meet back at the job after lunch but never saw him again.

He wanted you to HIRE him, and stood around watching? Wonder what he thought you were paying him to do? Geez.

[Jim Koepke]

He wanted you to HIRE him, and stood around watching? Wonder what he thought you were paying him to do? Geez.

Many times people would ask me about getting a job at my workplace. When asked what they knew how to do, it was often that they could do anything… Once they were trained. To me that usually meant they didn't know how to do much of anything.

Some of them insisted they knew about electricity or electronics. When asked a simple question on the subject they froze.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Just an update: after working all day yesterday, the only progress I can see is that 4 sheets of galvalum have been hung. They're out there now smoking and cussing at each other. I kid not- it took three men 10 minutes just to park the jeep n the alleyway, and they hit my split unit, which has been hit before and doesn't work so no big deal, but good grief. This has been so entertaining. They also have blocked the door to my shop with their piles of galvalum for the last few days.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Must be roofing time all over the world?
Last week in desert southwest (30miles from nothing), I watched 6 men riveting roofing to a metal frame. OK, it was actually 1 man riveting, 3 men 'supervising' him, and 2 kicking a rock back and forth in a vaguely soccer-like fashion.

Also have to confess I watched for 20 minutes - - just to see if that was the extent of the bystander's participation. So if you saw 7 guys roofing last week.....:o

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have a theory about construction crews, the bigger the crew, the less efficiency. Definitely true for my guys.

[Al Launier]

Getting back to the OP's message: Why did you let them continue to work on your project? I would have fired them & then hire the two West Indian guys, even if you had a fixed price contract with the incompetents. Eight guys? Incredible!

[Julie Moriarty]

You think that's bad, Malcolm? The woman who is installing bead board paneling in our bathroom has cut one 48x46-1/2" piece then, without even installing it, suddenly stopped and walked out of the bathroom, went to another room, turned on the ceiling fan and sat down at the computer. Right now she's typing this message. Talk about worthless! :D

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Getting back to the OP's message: Why did you let them continue to work on your project? I would have fired them & then hire the two West Indian guys, even if you had a fixed price contract with the incompetents. Eight guys? Incredible!



Read it again. It’s not my house. It’s my neighbor’s house.

[Walter Plummer]

When I started construction in the 70's with my uncle that was his motto. " Do something even if it's wrong."

[Kevin Beitz]

Bill Carey.... Now that's funny...

I had the Amish put a metal roof on my home (45x60)...
They was coming in as I was leaving for work. I wanted
to watch them work. When I came home they was done
and gone... Good job to...

[Bill Jobe]

I know there's stuff people smoke that makes them laugh, but I never heard of anything that makes people yell at one another for 2 hours. :rolleyes:

[James Pallas]

When something needs doing at my house my wife says lets hire someone. Most of the time I just do it. Some things I can't do anymore so I have to hire it out. It's more work to supervise the work than it is to do it. I did have success with a roofer a couple of years ago. They did the job did it well, inspected by the timberline rep, clean up was excellent in an out in 1 day. To be truthful I was somewhat shocked. The bid was in the middle to boot. Anymore you have to stay in the same area or get things stolen or surveyed for a later break in. Heat guy tried to steal my torpedo level off of my bench I told him to take it out of his tool bag before he left he just handed it to me with out a word and left. Tile "setter" had no idea how to scribe tile set on a bias, the owner had to come show him.
Jim

[Roger Feeley]

I heard the CEO of Pulte Homes interviewed on radio once. I was astounded by his candor. He said, "Today, my job is to figure out how to build homes without skilled labor." He said he couldn't find skilled labor and stay competitive.

When we built our house, we paid extra for the cream of the crop in subcontractors. I was really impressed with every crew. But we paid a premium. It's worth it to me. All the corners are square, the walls are plumb, the electrical is done right and so on. The electrical guy clocked the screws (lined them all up 12 and 6). I saw that kind of attention to detail throughout. We 'value engineered' around the edges but didn't scrimp on the basics. Yeah, I know none of that shows but it makes a difference to me.

[Julie Moriarty]

The electrical guy clocked the screws (lined them all up 12 and 6).
When I was a 3rd year apprentice I was working on a new sewage treatment plant. The journeyman I was working with and I were talking about quality of workmanship. At the time I was trimming out a 4 gang switch. The journeyman said, "Some guys are so anal about perfection they line up the slots in the screws...." and as he pointed to the switchplate I was installing he slowed his speech and finished with, "just..... like...... you....." :o

[Bill Jobe]

I caught a satellite installer going through my stuff when I returned from leaving the room briefly.
I told him he would be fine with me standing in his back pocket for the remainder of the time, wouldn't he?

[Bill Jobe]

My son-in-law is an electrician.
He wired my shop.
He simply refuses to install a 3-prong outlet without the single ground wire on top.
"They are designed that way in case a gap allowed something conductive to fall into the gap."
Most I've seen are installed the other way around.

[Jerome Stanek]

My son-in-law is an electrician.
He wired my shop.
He simply refuses to install a 3-prong outlet without the single ground wire on top.
"They are designed that way in case a gap allowed something conductive to fall into the gap."
Most I've seen are installed the other way around.

That is how you have to install them in hospitals

[Kev Williams]

That may be how they install them in hospitals, but they don't HAVE to ....

per Archtoolbox.com:

Ground Pin Up or Ground Pin Down?
There is an age-old debate about whether an electrical outlet should be mounted with the ground pin up or down. Unfortunately, there is not a fully accepted answer. However, it is commonly accepted that the National Electrical Code (NEC) of the United States, or NFPA 70, does not provide any specific direction for the orientation of the outlet.
Some theories about the orientation of an outlet:


The outlet should be oriented with the ground pin up because if the plug comes slightly loose and a metal object were to fall from above, the ground plug, which usually does not carry current, would deflect the object so that it would not hit is live prongs. It is accepted that this idea began in health care facilities where many tools used for patient care are metal. The story goes that hospitals were wired by union electricians and as the unions grew the practice spread to other types of buildings.
The outlet should be oriented with the ground pin up because this pin is longer and the plastic around the plug is meatier, so it will help to keep the plug inserted in the outlet.
The outlet should be oriented with the ground pin down because a person grabbing the outlet will have their index finger at the bottom side of the plug and the index finger sticks out further than the thumb. Having the ground down will keep a person's index finger from touching the live pins.
The outlet should be oriented with the ground pin down because many common household items such as nightlights, timers, and battery chargers are oriented with the ground pin down. In addition, GFCI outlets, which have text on the reset and test buttons, are oriented with the ground pin down (and the text readable).

A quick internet search provides comments that easily debunk any of these theories. The most basic answer is that it truly doesn't matter which way your outlets are oriented. Select the strategy that best works for you.

[Frank Pratt]

I caught a satellite installer going through my stuff when I returned from leaving the room briefly.
I told him he would be fine with me standing in his back pocket for the remainder of the time, wouldn't he?

I would follow up with a call to his employer. No excuse for that behavior.

[Larry Frank]

I watch any tradesmen doing work in my house. It is sad because most are honest but there is always one who is not.

[Jim Koepke]

The outlet should be oriented with the ground pin down because a person grabbing the outlet will have their index finger at the bottom side of the plug and the index finger sticks out further than the thumb. Having the ground down will keep a person's index finger from touching the live pins.

This is a good argument for having the ground pin up. It might eliminate the genetic traits responsible for people wrapping their fingers into the prongs of a plug. :eek:

Most of them would likely learn after the first time.

None of my nightlights have a grounding pin or polarized plugs.

jtk

[Patrick Walsh]

Guess I’m just a meat head..

No ear protection, eye protection and Incase you can’t tell i was trying to use my mouth as a dust collector lol. Didnt work so well but better than nothing lol.

We sure do have fun every once in a while.

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[Osvaldo Cristo]

My neighbor is having his roof redone, which includes skinning over the old 1" solid wood underlayment with ply, then purlins on that, and then galvalum. (New code requirement- have to skin with ply if redoing an old roof.) Eight men have been working on this project for over a week. They start early in the morning and spend two hours smoking and yelling at each other, then about an hour of work, much of which is removing the blue tarp. They break during the heat of the day (no criticism for that part- normal for roof work) and come back. Two more hours of smoking and yelling at each other, then an hour or so of work, most of which is putting the blue tarp back on. They wear no hearing protection as they cut galvalum with circular saws. It is so loud that literally as I write I am wearing hearing protection- inside my house. I feel so bad for these guys' ears. Right now they have the ply and purlins up after well over a week of work for 8 men. Well- technically 7 men and one woman, but all she does is cuss and complain to the men. I'm assuming she is some sort of supervisor. She has quite a mouth on her. She is very talented at combining multiple words, very similar to the German language, except with greater vulgarity.

Meanwhile, the other neighbor has two old West Indian guys that in the same amount of time have completely replaced the roof on their detached building, built and painted a trellis connecting the two buildings, scraped and painted the smaller of the two buildings, and replaced some shutters. These poor guys worked through the heat of the day. My kitchen porch almost touches their roof, so I kept giving them water. These men have no vehicle. They show up at 7AM tools and ladder in hand, and work until dusk.

Quite the contrast.

You described perfectly the standard Brazilian crew at work. Feel blessed as (yet) you have some old school alternatives...

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t know but here in the Boston area Brazzillians in the trades have a very good reputation for being very hard workers. It has bee my observation and oppinion that more often than not the Brazilian next to the white guy is a far harder, more willing and in the last ten years often more skilled.

Once upon a time in the trades Brazilians would had held low skill jobs in the trades. Now I see 9 outs ten times the best trim carpenters are brazzillian.

I for one would hire a Brazilian over the average white guy hands down bar non any day without hesitation.


You described perfectly the standard Brazilian crew at work. Feel blessed as (yet) you have some old school alternatives...

[Bill Dufour]

The average Brazillian in the states had the skills to earn enough in Brazil to buy a ticket to the states and he had enough confidence in his skills to risk the money and come to the states to earn better wages. The ones who could not do well enough to buy a ticket or risk coming are still there in Brazil.
In the San francisco are the Brazil room is a well known wedding venue. Made of tropical hardwoods to showcase the lumber from Brazil for the 1939 worlds fair it was taken down and moved to a park in Berkeley California around 1940. Never been inside just peeked in the windows. Quite a showcase of timbers inside. No idea if the exterior wood is special or just old growth redwood.
Bill D.
https://www.herecomestheguide.com/northern-california/wedding-venues/brazilian-room
https://www.ebparks.org/activities/corpfamily/br/

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I don’t know but here in the Boston area Brazzillians in the trades have a very good reputation for being very hard workers. It has bee my observation and oppinion that more often than not the Brazilian next to the white guy is a far harder, more willing and in the last ten years often more skilled.

Once upon a time in the trades Brazilians would had held low skill jobs in the trades. Now I see 9 outs ten times the best trim carpenters are brazzillian.

I for one would hire a Brazilian over the average white guy hands down bar non any day without hesitation.

Probably the best ones were exported. Here remains 99% the crap of crappiest... Ok, 1% is saved...

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Wow. Look at this. Wavy at all the overlaps, and instead of bending at the wall transition, they added another course. Wind will get under that for sure. Old homes here are built with the roof dovetailed into the wall. The rafters end at the inside edge of the wall, leaving a bend for the last 18” or so at the edge over the flat of the wall. I believe it also aids in holding the roof down in high winds at the wall join. You’re supposed to bend the sheathing over that- not make a new course. Over three weeks now and they are still not done. Look at that ridge cap. This is a FEMA crew. Again- not my house or this would have ended before it began.

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[Frank Pratt]

Ugh, that roof looks horrible, like something you'd see in a shanty town in a 3rd world country. Worse, actually, because in a 3rd world country you expect that & they are doing the best with what they have.

Does the neighbor have a clue?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Ugh, that roof looks horrible, like something you'd see in a shanty town in a 3rd world country. Worse, actually, because in a 3rd world country you expect that & they are doing the best with what they have.

Does the neighbor have a clue?

No- he knows nothing about construction.

By the way- this was a US crew that came down here to do the work. All statesiders.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe you could surreptitiously record them standing around doing nothing before they get in to doing the shoddy work and send it to an interested member of Congress or someone in the island's government.

jtk

[Curt Harms]

You think that's bad, Malcolm? The woman who is installing bead board paneling in our bathroom has cut one 48x46-1/2" piece then, without even installing it, suddenly stopped and walked out of the bathroom, went to another room, turned on the ceiling fan and sat down at the computer. Right now she's typing this message. Talk about worthless! :D

Is she worth what she's getting paid?:)

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Maybe you could surreptitiously record them standing around doing nothing before they get in to doing the shoddy work and send it to an interested member of Congress or someone in the island's government.

jtk

A number of folks have done that on other projects. There are some really good guys down here helping out and doing great work, but sadly some contractors took the money and hired unqualified workers and lowball-bid the contracts.