Big table....big boards...

[Dave Rosner]

Hi all - I’m building a 112” x 44” walnut dining table with 10/4 boards for the top. I’m having a heck of a time running the 7”-11” boards through my 8” jointer an 12” planner. I’m using the method of partially flattening 8” of the face and then running through my planner using a base that supports the 8” part of the board that was flattened.

Problem is is the boards are so heavy and rough that I’m getting a lot of undulations or a wavy pattern on The faces.

Wondering if anyone else has been through this with a 8” jointer and benchtop (dewalt) 12” planner.

or am I just resigned to expect some heavy hand planing when I’m all done with my glue ups?

[Jim Becker]

Do the best you can and then get the table top surfaced on a wide-belt sander. TOTALLY worth the small cost. ($25-35 with the folks I use) Handling long material like that is going to be tough on most equipment...

[Richard Coers]

You think they are heavy now, just wait. That top will weigh about 250 pounds. Mark the boards for orientation and then rip them to less than 8". You won't take out much wood with the kerf, and the color and grain will stay pretty close to original. There are a lot of seams anyway, why not just a few more?

[Dave Rosner]

So Jim you are sayIng to find a local shop with a wide belt sander and call it a day?

[Warren Lake]

find someone with proper machines to machine them

[Darcy Warner]

find someone with proper machines to machine them

Or rip everything down to 7 1/2" or split wider ones. Yeah, I know, everyone wants wide tables with wide boards.

[David Kreuzberg]

Why do you want a 2 1/2-inch thick top?

[Warren Lake]

ripped in half they are still a bit much for those machines. I did that a few times even that size, unless you rig up proper support all around and have experience you wont get great results.

[Sean Nagle]

There comes a point where it's easier to take the tool to the work. I would get the set of handplanes out and get a good workout.

[Wade Lippman]

My kitchen table is made with the boards going the other way. Don't remember why I did it that way 15 years ago, but it looks fine and no one has said anything about it, other than how nice it is.
And yeah, why 10/4?

[Prashun Patel]

I agree with ripping the boards to less than 8”. In addition to allowing you to run them on your jointer without a sled, you will likely end up with better grain matching - assuming you have extra boards.

[Scott Bernstein]

I personally would not rip the boards. I have only a 6" jointer (planning to get a much larger one in the coming months) and am working on a 6' x 3' dining room table using 12/4 Ash. The legs will join to the table with finger joints - no apron. I have already made a smaller table, as a prototype, using this technique and it came out beautifully. I just completed a 5' x 2' butcher block style countertop with 10/4 cherry. All of these projects required jointed very large, heavy pieces on a jointer that's really too small. I ran the edges of the pieces through the jointer best I could using roller supports, etc...and the jointer did a sort-of OK job - not great. But it was straight enough to run through through the table saw with a good quality blade and get a near-perfect edge for glue-up. For the faces, I used a long straight edge to help get a rough idea of where the high points were. I then used a combination of patience, a power hand plane. and a long wooden jointing hand plane. The faces were not perfect after that, but certainly much better and good enough to run through the thickness planer to get the other side reasonably flat and even. I then used a festool domino in all the pieces to help with alignment during glue-up. Once all the pieces were glued, I used my long jointing plane to take down the high spots on both sides. I then followed with 80 grit on the belt sander, then higher grits with the random orbit sander. The end results have been good. But, boy, a bigger jointer would certainly make this way easier...

[Dave Rosner]

Thanks all...

I’ve been using a method the wood whisperer recommends where you joint the 10-11” board and are left with a raised edge for the part of the face that does fit over the cutter head. So it’s like making a 8” wide very shallow rabbet. Then on my planer I have a 8” flat board that supports the jointed face. Once I get the other side flat I flip over and plan away the strip that was left from jointing.

This is works great with reasonable boards but I’m getting poor results with these big boards. I just hit YouTube and see that I haven’t removed the “rabbet extension” on my jointer. I think after a few passes that is raising the board and giving me bad results. I’m also going to add a mdf board to my planner bed to give me a bit more support when processing.

im sure I’ll still need some hand planning post glue up...or i may look for a local shop that can process this final glue up for me. Welcome suggesting for the glue up. Do I need cauls or something to keep it flat during glue up? Should I glue up 2 boards together separately then glue those 2 together?

[Jim Foster]

I think your pushing on rope trying to do this with existing equipment. I would follow the advice of using an outside shop to get the boards flat both before and after glue-up

If you need to do this in your shop, I think hand planing to get the jointed side close should help a lot, as suggested above

Also, it sounds like a fun project. Good luck!

[Richard Coers]

I'm still curious how you plan on handling the glued up top in your shop, and getting it into you dining room? Just flipping it over is going to take 3 people. You must have younger friends than I do. At my age, a gathering of my friends always turns into a discussion of what pains we have on that day!

[Prashun Patel]

The issue is that it is very hard to manipulate long heavy boards even with a wide jointer. For a one-man shop with hobbyist equipment, I always have to clean up the edge with a hand plane. Even if you think it’s good off the saw or power jointer, beware. When I don’t want seams showing one or two years later, I hand joint the edge and use slow cure epoxy.

Yes, you should use cauls, but not necessarily to keep the boards flat, but rather to keep even pressure along the length of the joint.

You will probably have some seam leveling to do, but this is not hard even with an orbital sander. You just have to take care to feather out your sanding. You will minimize the work by using dowels, biscuits or loose tenons.

[Dave Rosner]

Was thinking to dry fit I the room itself and let the boards acclimate for a few days. Then just do the glue up onsite. My wife isn’t going to love it but that’s the price you pay.

im targeting 2” for final Thickness for the top but agree it’s still going to be a beast....

[Gordon Stump]

I made a table like that out of cherry. I just ran the boards through the planer and joined them by ripping them on the table saw with a power feeder and a very good glue-line blade. Lots of hand planing and sanding and it turned out not perfect but very good. Next tine I would pay for wide belt sanding. But there will be no next time. I made a narrow u shaped cradle on casters to move on level ground but it took 4 people to get it out of the basement shop. Too heavy!!!403643

[Carl Beckett]

More than once I have done a table top with thinner stock in the center, and only thicker material on the outside. Although I guess those had breadboard ends on it. But it allowed the look of a thick top, but reduced the mass a bit.

You might want to consider alignment biscuits or such, to help during glueup. A large surface like that is going to be work to smooth if it isnt close to start with.

I am not sure gluing up on site is going to be all that much help - where ever there is adequate working area and surfaces and clamps.

Yes, just find someone willing to run it through some larger equipment is a great option. I have done some for members here (but my equipment isnt even big enough for that one!)

[andrew whicker]

I recently made a 40" x 7 to 8 ft long, ~2" thk out of 3 pieces.

I went to a woodworking shop to get the flattening and the jointing done on the boards. The edges weren't perpendicular for jointing, but the turn around time was long so I decided to fix it myself. I got a tracksaw and used the method of pushing the boards together and re-jointing the sister edges together.

I highly recommend using a pro shop. Perhaps they'll be better at jointing than mine was. Regardless, they will get them flat on the sander / huge jointer they have and you'll be very happy to have skipped the milling process. IMO.

[Jacob Reverb]

I bet your wife will love the walnut sanding dust in the dining room.

Good luck!

[andy bessette]

I bet your wife will love the walnut sanding dust in the dining room.

Good luck!

Really. Makes no sense.

[Prashun Patel]

Letting them acclimate after milling is not a good idea. Acclimate before, then mill then glue up quickly.

[Richard Coers]

Really. Makes no sense.

OP Says he's going to glue it up on site. I doubt if he takes it back to the shop after it's glued up to sand it. The dust my wife could live with. The chemical smell of the finish would result in her living in a hotel near a beach for a few days!

[Jacob Reverb]

At 2" thick and almost 10 feet long, I suspect it's gonna be quite tricky to make it look more delicate and refined than something King Arthur would use to slaughter cattle upon.

[Jim Becker]

I'm very much "anti-ripping" wide boards, personally.

To your question, OP, yes, find a local commercial shop that has a wide-belt. Many, if not most of them, will be happy to run a table top for a local woodworker for a few shekels.I recently did that with our new kitchen table top and the result was stellar. They charged me $25 instead of the $35 they originally quoted because the workpiece was easily manageable and I only took one pass on the bottom side and two on the top. The top was "really close" already because I used Dominos referenced to the top surface on all boards to keep the top side nicely aligned while assembling it.

[Jim Foster]

The top you are building is going to be over 200lb. 3/4" plywood weight 60lbs. You might try fastening 3 and 1/2 sheets together in a way that they are 112 inches long and move them around to see what's possible in your situation. If this size top is not manageable, there may be ways to modify the design without losing sight of the end goal.

I had a 6' x 40" trestle table made years ago in Oak. It's 1/25" thick, does not break down and is a BEAST to move, even with 3 manly guys doing the move.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Hi all - I’m building a 112” x 44” walnut dining table with 10/4 boards for the top. I’m having a heck of a time running the 7”-11” boards through my 8” jointer an 12” planner. I’m using the method of partially flattening 8” of the face and then running through my planner using a base that supports the 8” part of the board that was flattened.

Problem is is the boards are so heavy and rough that I’m getting a lot of undulations or a wavy pattern on The faces.

Wondering if anyone else has been through this with a 8” jointer and benchtop (dewalt) 12” planner.

or am I just resigned to expect some heavy hand planing when I’m all done with my glue ups?

Disclaimer: I never made that previously for big tables

If I was at the same situation as you I would consider seriously manual planning the final glued up. I would take a Jack plane with a more aggressive blade to take off most of the irregularities and afterwards I would change the blade for a higher angle one or would use a smooth plane as Stanley no. 4 for finish. I really think it would be the best solution as you do not need to invest a ton of money in new machinery and would be faster than any other solution (as a router jig to plane the board).

Good luck in your challenge - and please let us know the follow up.

[Dave Rosner]

Hi All - OP here and appreciate everyone's input and guidance. For those that are interested i swapped my 13 year old son with a 45 friend to help as I flattened on my 8" jointer. I also removed the rabbet shelf that i think was getting in the way. Results came out great and while it was heavy lifting to get them through my Dewalt 13" planner it did the trick. Below is a picture of a board off the jointer and the other picture are a few boards off the planer.

Given the glue up weight i do plan to bring the individual boards inside and let them sit for a few weeks. Then i'll plane for final thickness (2"), use biscuits, and hope that i get it as close to flat as possible. If all goes well i'd like to stick with my #4 and a card scraper and keep from any sanding. I guess the most important parts to be co-planar is the bottom edges that will rest on the aprons. After that i don't need a perfectly flat top as long as it looks good to the eye.

Welcome suggestions as i transition to the glue up phase if anyone else has been through this before...

403858403859

[andy bessette]

...the most important parts to be co-planar is the bottom edges that will rest on the aprons. After that i don't need a perfectly flat top as long as it looks good to the eye...

Pretty sure you have this backwards. You'd have to get down on your hands and knees to see the apron joint. The top wants to be flat.

[Dave Rosner]

Well I spent hours getting my roubo workbench top perfectly flat across and along its length. But that I use as a reference surface in my shop. Is there a reason the top of my dining table needs to be perfectly flat or is it mostly flat I’m going for?

Flat on the aprons I would have thought would be mostly for stability...

[Jim Becker]

Flat is relative for a table like this, Dave. As long as it "looks" flat and is well supported, something of that stature doesn't need to be ready to be a machine shop reference surface. :) Leveled so it looks like a continuous surface is more important and that's one reason I suggested the wide belt treatment once you have it glued up...getting the whole schmegeggi the same thickness so it looks like it's a continuous surface like I just mentioned.

[Jim Dwight]

I want a 10 foot dining table something like you are building so I find your experience very interesting. I am concerned with the weight of the top. I have an old Woodsmith magazine where they faked a thick top with plywood and made the breadboard ends removable so a narrow leaf could be added at each end. A 10 foot would fit in my 16 foot dining room fine, however. I might look for a sheet of nice 9 foot long plywood and still have solid wood breadboard ends - just skip the leafs. The plywood will not be as durable, however. My plans are cherry top and an ebonized softwood base (I had great luck with black ink on softwood making the mobile base for my sawstop).

Anyway, enough of my project. Yours is looking great. I would use dowels or loose tenons or possibly splines to get the boards line up as well as possible during glueup. I would cover the floor and do the glueup in the dining room. A hand plane would limit dust but I would probably use my Bosch 1250DEVS sander hooked up to a shop vac with HEPA filter. Turning if over to do the bottom will turn into a major exercise if I do solid wood. But turning it over is lifting half the weight. Carrying it would be much worse.

In my case, I am not worrying about moving the table. I don't plan any more moves and my kids can figure something out when I'm gone. A 10 foot long dining table is never going to be an easy thing to find a new home for.

[John Goodin]

For what you paid for the walnut paying a little extra for a wide belt sander is worth it.

I built a similar sized table out of reclaimed freight train flooring. It was 2.5 inch maple. I built the top and legs in the garage then had a buddy help me carry both separate pieces into dining room. It was not a problem. The table top is heavy but once it is upright it was easy to maneuver. My wife helped a bit when it was time to get the top horizontal.

you ought to post pictures of this when done — a walnut table that size is going to be beautiful.

[Prashun Patel]

Your dining table will be easier than your workbench to flatten. I agree with Jim. Local flatness is more important than global flatness here. However, his statement of 'leveled so it looks like a continuous surface' is rich. I would still use a straight edge to look for dips and undulations from any aggressive sanding you might do. These will certainly become apparent under a glossy finish...

...so the other tip is don't use a glossy finish. A satin finish is more forgiving on many levels here.

[Jim Becker]

Prashun, the wide belt should actually deal with the dips and undulations you mention...I know it did for my recent kitchen table project and it only took two passes!

[Robert Engel]

Dave, yeah removing or lowering the rabbet ledge on the jointer is a must!!

Of course with the guard removed, be very careful, or better yet, make a homemade euro type guard you can clamp to the fence.

I think you'll find everything will works now.

Finding a shop with a wide belt is the best way to go but may not be that easy. I live near a major metropolitan area and gave up after calling 3 different shops that were recommended to me. I'm sure if I kept looking I could have found one but my glue up was close enough and the top flat enough I was able to do it with the tools I had.

If there is a local woodworking club or Woodcraft store nearby you might check with them.

For a top that big and thick, you might also consider a router planing sled. A bit time consuming, but you'll get a good result.

BTW, evenness is probably more important than dead flatness for a dining table. I wouldn't fret it too much.

[andrew whicker]

I just want to share my 'learning opportunity' on a recent table top I built with similar dimensions:

Once I get pieces milled in the future, I will move as quickly as possible thru the table top build. My table top sounds similar to yours. All I built before this was smaller tops and I didn't really think of the time issue. With big tops, a small change in moisture content can have a big impact on the shape of the top. Mine developed a substantial cup (which at first I thought was against the growth, but realized it was with the direction of growth). Once I had a huge cup, I could not really send it to the big sander. I wasn't able to take off more than 1/8" to 3/16" before my design was impacted. I bought a really nice belt sander (Makita) and spent countless hours running it over the top to make the top 'flat' along the curve. The point is, if I had done everything quickly and applied oil as soon as I could, the table top may not have moved noticeably or at all. Or worst case, if it did move, it would still be 'flat' across the curve because I would have taken it thru a belt sander first.

I'm not sure if other more competent woodworkers would agree, but unless I see otherwise, I will now plan to get the top done as quickly as possibly and put at least one coat of oil on as soon as possible. This was a painful experience that I do not wish to repeat.

I also wonder: do you guys build the top first or last? I think top first because the height of the table, apron widths (or whatever you are using for spacing) will need table top dimensions. I built my top first, but set it aside before oil and then built the legs. I think this was my mistake. Do you guys put some sort of easy to sand of oil if you know your top is going to be sitting for a while?


Cheers,

[Carl Beckett]

I saw a floor finishing sander once that was very controlled (dont think it was the usual drum sander type, more of a vertical orientation, it didnt take off a lot and left a nice finish).

But I wonder, if you put that glueup on the floor and rented floor sanding equipment...

[Mark Bolton]

If I were looking to do this I would find a local CNC shop to toss all my boards on the deck. Squeeze them together on the end lightly with some clamps. Deck them off with a fly cutter. Flip, Re-clamp lightly, deck off the second side. You take them back to your shop and rip on your table saw as needed. Glue up the top worrying only about the edges not the faces. Then bring it back to the CNC shop, toss it back on the machine with the worst face up. Deck it off flat enough for a table bottom. Flip it. And deck the top off at a feed rate that will leave you with a 150 grit finish to take back to your shop.

[andy bessette]

...Mine developed a substantial cup...

This is likely due to your choice of flat-sawn wood, rather than quarter-sawn.

[Scott T Smith]

Hi All - OP here and appreciate everyone's input and guidance. For those that are interested i swapped my 13 year old son with a 45 friend to help as I flattened on my 8" jointer. I also removed the rabbet shelf that i think was getting in the way. Results came out great and while it was heavy lifting to get them through my Dewalt 13" planner it did the trick. Below is a picture of a board off the jointer and the other picture are a few boards off the planer.

Given the glue up weight i do plan to bring the individual boards inside and let them sit for a few weeks. Then i'll plane for final thickness (2"), use biscuits, and hope that i get it as close to flat as possible. If all goes well i'd like to stick with my #4 and a card scraper and keep from any sanding. I guess the most important parts to be co-planar is the bottom edges that will rest on the aprons. After that i don't need a perfectly flat top as long as it looks good to the eye.

Welcome suggestions as i transition to the glue up phase if anyone else has been through this before...

403858403859

Dave, I've been through this before but also have the good fortune to have the equipment suited for working with large slabs.

Here is an idea that I have not seen mentioned.

Forget flattening first. Instead edge joint the planks - using your jointer if practical and a track saw if not. Another option is a track guided router with a 3" spiral upcut 1/2" diameter end mill in it.

Next, glue up the top.

Then, after the glue has dried use a router sled to flatten the entire top. Sand after flattening and you're in business.

Granted, if you can take them to a local shop that has a large jointer / planer, then by all means do so. If not you can do it at home with the method outlined above.

In this pic I'm using a Festool track, Router and 4" long end mill to edge joint a 4" x 10" quartersawn oak plank for a bench top. Tolerances were dead on on the glue up.

403921

[Mark Bolton]

This is likely due to your choice of flat-sawn wood, rather than quarter-sawn.

With regards to this thread, who in their right mind would pay for quarter sawn walnut? Flat sawn FAS is like buying bars of gold. Makes zero sense.

[Stephen Ryan]

Ha! I finished building a table in walnut that's just over 9' long and 44" wide late last fall, though I used 5/4 for the top. The top was a big enough glueup that I did it one joint at a time; I also used dowels to help with alignment, but it turned out to be quite difficult to get as many dowels all lined up at once as I wanted, so I ended up just putting 3 dowels in so that I could get the joint closed up before the glue set (that's almost certainly due to small errors on my part adding up over the 9 feet). Carrying the top from the basement up to the dining room was almost a full-blown project in its own right, I can't imagine how heavy a 2" top is going to be! I did glue the apron/leg assembly together in the dining room, as I wasn't going to be able to get the glued-together base up the basement stairs; the top is fastened to that with z-clips so that we can take it apart if it ever needs to move; the base should be small enough to get through the front door.

I haven't put any finish on it yet as I'm waiting for spring when I can ventilate better first (but the table was assembled on Thanksgiving day two hours before dinner!) I was planning on a glossy finish but after reading through this thread I may have just changed my mind in favor of a more matte finish, as I'm certain that my less-than-perfect flattening and sanding job will surely show; we're just using a waterproof tablecloth in the meantime. I used a 4" belt sander followed by a ROS followed by 3 days of sweeping and vacuuming the basement for getting the glued-up pieces leveled. The one place I ran into some trouble was rounding the corners; I rounded the corners of the tabletop followed by a roundover; I did one final touchup pass on one corner only to realize that I had carelessly let the router bit drop and it left an extra unwanted groove 403945 so I ended up having to shorten the entire table by 3" to get rid of that - but after I did, I had a ton of trouble getting my corner radius jig to register properly on the already-rounded-over edges (eventually solved by me realizing that I could use my longer flush-trim router bit if I put the radius jig on the bottom of the tabletop, but it still took a bunch of sanding to cover up my mistake there). I can't wait to see what this is going to look like with finish on it....
403950

[Gary Ragatz]

With regards to this thread, who in their right mind would pay for quarter sawn walnut? Flat sawn FAS is like buying bars of gold. Makes zero sense.

Where I buy my lumber, quarter-sawn is ~ $9.75/bf vs. ~ $6.00/bf for plain-sawn - so, about a 60% premium. I guess it depends on the application, the size of the project and the size of your budget. For the OP's project, personally, I'd stick with plain-sawn (my wife gets cranky when she doesn't eat for three weeks).

[Prashun Patel]

who in their right mind would pay for quarter sawn walnut? Flat sawn FAS is like buying bars of gold. Makes zero sense

Choosing a grain orientation is a function of aesthetics, budget, availability, and function. It's context dependent. I have purchased vertical grain walnut before as has a respected chair maker I know.

All generalizations are bad. ;)

[Mark Bolton]

Choosing a grain orientation is a function of aesthetics, budget, availability, and function. It's context dependent. I have purchased vertical grain walnut before as has a respected chair maker I know.

All generalizations are bad. ;)

That was why I said as it pertains to the thread ;-). I know for us at least the highest price sources for Walnut we have available, none even offer quarter sawn. Your basically ordering FAS in a large enough quantity to sort the material you need and hopefully have a use for the 3-4X extra you have to buy to get the material needed. We just did a Walnut job and brought in 4x the 6/4 we needed and barely got the prime material we needed for the job.

[Roger Feeley]

I can't help you with the jointer but I have an idea for the planer. Turn it around. A 12" planer is way undersized for running a board that big through but have you considered keeping the board stationary and letting the planer move? put your planer on a mobile base and put the board on a series of supports that you can quickly remove and replace. Start the planer at one end and quickly put a support in right behind it. Then, as the planer advances through the board, keep removing supports ahead and replacing them behind.

This isn't my idea. Years ago, in FWW, I saw an article about a guy who had to bandsaw some 30' bent lamination beams in Hilton Head. He solved the problem by building a sort of hovercraft base for his bandsaw and piloting it through the wood. I remember it because my very wealth cousin likes to show off the 30' bent lamination beams in his house in Hilton Head.

[Dave Rosner]

Interesting...why an end mill vs a standard router but?

[Jim Becker]

Interesting...why an end mill vs a standard router but?
Some "end mills" are "standard router bits"...it's just a term most often associated with spiral cutters with one or more flutes and comes from the metal working world. The advantage of an end-mill of the correct configuration (or insert cutter) for surfacing material is that they are designed to remove the chips and cut with a shearing action which leaves a clean surface. A strait router cutter can do this pretty clean, too, but it may not be as effective.

[Scott T Smith]

Interesting...why an end mill vs a standard router but?

In addition to Jim's excellent answer, you can buy straight 1/2" spiral upcut end mills in greater lengths than router bits.

[Brian Holcombe]

That was why I said as it pertains to the thread ;-). I know for us at least the highest price sources for Walnut we have available, none even offer quarter sawn. Your basically ordering FAS in a large enough quantity to sort the material you need and hopefully have a use for the 3-4X extra you have to buy to get the material needed. We just did a Walnut job and brought in 4x the 6/4 we needed and barely got the prime material we needed for the job.

Mark, it’s unlikely that you will get much of any QS in FAS packs. The sawyer continuously turns the log looking for a clear cut until it’s gone. It produces a higher yield than through cutting. If you use someone who through cuts their logs than you will get a fairly large amount of Rift and QS.

One is my local yards orders FAS packs and sorts out the clear QS boards, they are typically 1 board in 4000 BF for him.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, it’s unlikely that you will get much of any QS in FAS packs. The sawyer continuously turns the log looking for a clear cut until it’s gone. It produces a higher yield than through cutting. If you use someone who through cuts their logs than you will get a fairly large amount of Rift and QS.

One is my local yards orders FAS packs and sorts out the clear QS boards, they are typically 1 board in 4000 BF for him.

Right, no disagreement there. Id say in this last pack we were lucky to have a half dozen four sided boards, no sap, I never even looked for QS. I didnt mean to imply that anyone would buy FAS to cull quarter sawn material out of the pack. My point was that quarter sawn Walnut just isnt a cut commonly in demand on the commodity market which is why you just dont see it listed in most sheets even from the highest priced suppliers.

When you get into through-sawn, flitch, boule, your into the uber boutique market where the work pays for it (hopefully) and thats an entirely different world than FAS and under for day to day work. Sadly with Walnut I cant imagine buying anything under FAS because you struggle to get usable material with FAS.

Ive rarely ever sawn boules off the mill simply due to the waste and having to saw everything oversize even with flipping the log. When you see someone flat-saw on a bed style mill its not uncommon for the boards to be left heavily oversize because they will be thick ends, thin middle, or vice versa because the log is moving the entire time the tension isnt being dealt with. That movement is more difficult to accommodate when your not rolling a cant and cutting for grade. Boutique work makes use of, and accounts for, all that loss and waste from through sawing. Making day to day items, furniture, drawer boxes, etc, doesnt. Doors, high end furniture, high dollar interiors, sure.

Im no sawyer but the sawing for grade and the sawyer rolling the cant is more an issue of cutting for yield and grade. Not just boards, but addressing the tension that is in every tree and rolling the cant allows you to cut that tension out and keep your boards coming off the mill more consistent in thickness, bow, crook, etc.. The cant may yield a bunch of wide boards but if you dont do a good job addressing the tension they will all be thick/thin, crook'd, and so on so your better off losing some of that width and get better boards. Of course if your going for QS then thats what it has to be.

Then you add in a different grading standard and its a real nightmare lol.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mark,

I bought a batch recently from Horizon. They provided QS and rift sections 7-9” wide, 8-10’ near completely clear and straight for less than I would pay locally for FAS.

Locally this kind of thing is impossible to get unless I’m buying 12/4 rift cut slabs but I never know if their is some void or knot or other junk below the surface when I resaw for parts.

Often enough I’d rather just use pattern grade mahogany for the best projects. I managed all of the parts for two benches recently from one slab, resawn with practically zero waste.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark,

I bought a batch recently from Horizon. They provided QS and rift sections 7-9” wide, 8-10’ near completely clear and straight for less than I would pay locally for FAS.

Locally this kind of thing is impossible to get unless I’m buying 12/4 rift cut slabs but I never know if their is some void or knot or other junk below the surface when I resaw for parts.

Often enough I’d rather just use pattern grade mahogany for the best projects. I managed all of the parts for two benches recently from one slab, resawn with practically zero waste.

Just for fun what do you pay for FAS Walnut? Im always interested in comparing numbers. This last pack we brought in was a half pack of 6/4 and we paid 5.40

**Edit** I just pulled up our last numbers on 4/4 FAS, steamed, packs in varied lengths up to 12', some packs mixed/randoms, 4.22

[Brian Holcombe]

I pay more for FAS than I do for QS becuase im buying from retail suppliers.

$9/BF for QS steamed wide. $7.5 for unsteamed QS

$10~ for FAS.

So, I’ve moved toward using moderate quantities of QS and no longer buying FAS.

[andy bessette]

When you are building high quality product it is easy to rationalize buying premium grade materials. I have been paying upwards of $30/ bd ft for teak, which I hand pick for grain and straightness. Usually I am able to mill any flat grain material into narrower vertical grain.

[Mark Bolton]

When you are building high quality product it is easy to rationalize buying premium grade materials. I have been paying upwards of $30/ bd ft for teak, which I hand pick for grain and straightness. Usually I am able to mill any flat grain material into narrower vertical grain.

Again, I dont disagree at all. We tend to bring in material at a grade far higher than larger shops would who sort in-house and have a use for lower grade or the room to inventory it and turn it later for a profit. We are space limited so I dont often have the abilty to bring in lower grade packs and cull out higher grade material. I tend to bring in the highest grade material I can afford (usually FAS) so that (other than Walnut) every board comes straight out of the pack an into the job. We will set aside really juicy stuff (figure) to save if we can. We do bring in a bunch of hard Maple in a grade that allows for a ton of sorting and downstream profit but its still rare.

There is no doubt, if you dont have the room, the budget, ability, to deal with the cull you buy the higher grade. And If I were asked to build some highly figured Walnut something or another we'd be sourcing material 4x the price.

[Dave Rosner]

Below is the dry fit of my 10/4 walnut boards that I've planed down to about 2". I never asked the Amish guy i got them from what the quality was but as far as i can tell this is some premium flat sawn stuff. I paid about $9.5/bd-ft and curious how this compares quality wise since I've heard Walnut quality is tough to come by. Safe to say these are FAS? I had minimal twist and boards were pretty straight...

404431

[Mark Bolton]

You can Google the NHLA grading rules and look specifically for walnut as the standard FAS doesnt apply. It's a difficult read but makes sense after a bit
Your boards definitely look like the would qualify for FAS but it's hard to say. Checks, open knot etc. but the width and amount of sap look good. Price doenst seem bad either if you were able to buy the amount you needed and see/sort before buying.

[Jim Becker]

That looks nice to me.

As Mark mentions, walnut is a "special case" when it comes to grading simply because of how the trees tend to grow. Long and clear is highly unusual with walnut so as he states, they cannot use the same grading specifications that are applied to most other species. I had a client inquiry recently where she wants a 106" island top that's completely clear. I had to 'splain the facts of life relative to how much that might raise the cost as well as compromise her desire for wide boards at the same time.