Do you always start with the jointer?

[Carl Beckett]

Just curious, do you always start by flattening every board?

I do not. Often my stock is fairly flat to begin with

But reading here seems like some of you always flatten just out of principle

[Doug Dawson]

Just curious, do you always start by flattening every board?

I do not. Often my stock is fairly flat to begin with

But reading here seems like some of you always flatten just out of principle

A critical element here, methinks, is deciding what parts of the board are going to become what parts of the piece, cut them roughly to size, and then joint _that_.

It's all a big massage, and it certainly increases the yield.

[Don Jarvie]

Buying rough lumber is cheaper and leads to flat boards since you have more room to work with to get an true 4/4 board. I’ve seem enough 4/4 that isn’t flat so you don’t have much to work with.

I use rough lumber and cut it slightly long then joint it, let it rest a day or two, joint it again so it’s flat on one side then use the planer. Let it sit then plane to the final thickness. You can then edge joint and cut to the final size. You have a better chance of having consistent wood.

[Matt Day]

The only machine that touches the wood before the jointer is the RAS to cut to length.

[Jim Becker]

In general, yes, I do start with face jointing. I like flat material and the majority of the time, I wouldn't be happy with "fairly flat". I face joint and then thickness. Edges I leave for my slider and rarely do them on the jointer.

[Bill Space]

It depends.

For me the closer the rough wood is to the desired finished size, the easier it is to make the pieces flat, especially if there is bow or twist in them.

Sometimes I joint an edge and rip to width on the tablesaw, before jointing one face.

Also, as mentioned by another above , I will use my RAS to shorten boards to close to the desired length for the same reasons.

The jointer always seems to precede the planer in my shop.

By the way, your post is unclear regarding what you do in your shop...

[Tom M King]

I always sight a board first, but don't remember the last time I saw one straight enough not to visit the jointer first in process.

[Dave Zellers]

Just curious, do you always start by flattening every board?
Always.
Always, always, always!

Often my stock is fairly flat to begin with
Often? What about the other times? Fairly flat is not flat.
The joy of working with perfectly flat stock, can not be exaggerated.

The experience after I sharpen and replace the knives in my jointer and planer is remarkable. After jointing, planing and stacking a dozen boards for a project, they are so flat they actually stick together a bit.

I love that!

But seriously, it depends on the project. Absolutely for cabinets and furniture and not so much for every day things. But buying rough lumber and surfacing it yourself does two things- it will be dead flat when you start your project and if the rough lumber is flat to begin with, you can yield much thicker stock than the pre dressed retail stock.

[Richard Coers]

The key statement is "fairly flat". If fairly flat is fine with you, then okay. But fairly flat is not okay in my shop. I usually buy my stock hit or miss planed to 15/16". That gives me material to further flatten and thickness to size.

[Patrick Kane]

Yes, everything is jointed. It’s always nice when a board is cleaned up on one face after a 1/16” pass. Instantly know that wood was sawn and dried properly to only be out 1/16”. 95% of the time the boards are not out 1/16”, they are out an 1/8” or a 1/4” if I’m using wide and long boards.

[Derek Cohen]

I determine what sections of a board will be used, cut these a very little oversize, and then joint. This will reduce the amount of waste removed when a board is cupped or has a twist.

Bandsaw, handsaw or tablesaw comes first.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Beckett]

Well, I may be breaking some cardinal rule. But yes I chop things up to smaller sizes as a starting point (the smaller the piece the less out of flatness propagates). But from there, 'it depends' if I will ever surface the face (in fact sometimes I will thickness plane without facing). Cant imagine the neanders get everything dead flat using hand planes.

Whether I face it depends on the use of that particular piece. For example, door rails/stiles I always surface and want them as square as possible. If resawing I might surface one face as a reference for the fence, but subsequent slices may go right to the planer (relatively thin panels arent rigid enough to where it matters anyway). A panel glueup I might not, and instead cut the finished sub assembly to size/squareness or sometimes run it through the belt sander. Other pieces in a project it just may not matter that they be exactly flat/straight. Sometimes it does affect joinery depending on how you do it (machine cut joints are easier to setup if flat/square than hand cut as example)

The responses here was what I was observing. Most of you flatten everything early in the process no matter what. Maybe I should be as well... am going to think through some projects and which pieces I flattened and which pieces I didnt, whether it caused grief during the build that would be solved by flattening.

(projects are mostly furniture; cabinets, drawers, bookcases, chests, chairs, etc - a lot of arts and crafts, shaker, mission style (not too many complex curves/shaped designs))

Was just asking as a curiosity.

[roger wiegand]

Nearly flat boards may start at the jointer, but I only have a 6" jointer and most of my wood isn't what I would call nearly flat, so at this point I need to cut it down to fit my machine first. That means at least a crossscul to a few inches over final length (my planer snipes something awful, but that's another post topic) and often a rip to something under 6". Running a 10 ft bowed board on the jointer first would very often result in nothing left, while 3-4 ft long pieces from the same board can be jointed and planed to 3/4 or 7/8. Wider boards that need to stay that way get flattened one side with a hand plane, again not over a much longer length than needed.

My joinery is bad enough without dealing with extra dimensions of variability.

[Jeff Bartley]

I always face joint first. When joinery is involved I'll sometimes joint then plane to within an 1/8" of final dimension, then sticker everything and let it rest for a few days to a week.

As well, I try to take off equal amounts of each rough edge where practical.

[Gordon Stump]

If there is no twist or bow I go directly to the planer. If it is cupped, I take "gentle" cuts on the planer first on the convex side. My stuff sits freely on rubber feet so near perfect flatness is not critical. Having said that, my rough sawn lumber is generally very flat. If a blank develops a slight twist later it goes to the jointer but only the bottom side. I am lazy
.

[Curt Harms]

The key statement is "fairly flat". If fairly flat is fine with you, then okay. But fairly flat is not okay in my shop. I usually buy my stock hit or miss planed to 15/16". That gives me material to further flatten and thickness to size.

Yup, plane a little if needed to determine grain and appearance then cut to rough length, flatten, plane etc. etc.

[kent wardecke]

Watching Norm and trial and error is how i learned wood working. consequently I don't have jointer skills
So my 6 inch delta jointer sits unused.
I may cut the rough stock into manageable pieces then It's the planer bow side up then alternating sides until both sides are flat and parallel. I have a sled i use to straighten crooked boards. My table saw cuts are good enough to glue up
After reading all the replies maybe I'm doing it wrong :-)

[Andrew Seemann]

It depends on how flat the board is when I get it, whether I face joint it or not. I'm sure many will disagree with this, but if the board is flat enough to go through the planer without rocking or jumping, it doesn't need face jointing. It may be rough, but if it goes though the planer flat enough, face jointing is an unnecessary step. If a board needs some help, I run smaller boards on my 6" jointer; wider ones, I take a jack plane and knock off the high spots until it will run flat through the planer. I never have issues with flatness or thickness after I am done. I do have the big honkin' Grizzly 15" planer, so that may help. I always plane each side of the board at least once, mostly because the Grizzly leaves a much better finish than my jointer.

If you have severely twisted, cupped, or bowed lumber, it is best not to use that piece, at least not in that dimension. Even if you face joint that out of it, and perfectly S4S it, the twist, cup, or bow will likely return once the humidity changes. Remember the board was sawn flat, but still dried that way. If it gains or looses moisture, it will move or relax that way again. Myself, I leave those boards at the lumber yard; they tend to be nothing but trouble.

That said, it seems like most of the "rough" 4/4 I get these days has been skip planed. Not sure why, maybe so they can stack it more tightly when they ship it. It it is handy though.

[Jacob Reverb]

I almost never face joint. Just cut maybe 1/32" oversize and joint the edges for the joint. If something is ruff and needs a lick off the face, I'll put it through planer.

So for me, it's usually cut on saw first, then joint if needed. If you need a straight edge on a board, you're better off cutting it to length first, anyway -- less material to remove on jointer.

For tabletops and such, I'll generally glue it up and then hand-plane with a jackplane. IMO, a tabletop need not be (and will never remain, anyway), perfectly planar. Stuff moves.

YMMV.

[Joe Jensen]

I try to always buy my lumber rough sawn or skip planed. In my experience hardwood is never really flat at the lumber yard. When making something I cut pieces out of the rough sawn stock slightly oversize. I then use the jointer to flatten one side. Then to the planer to thickness. I try to be careful to remove about the same amount from each side to keep the part as flat as I can. I then use the jointer to flatten and edge and the to the saw to rip to width. I then cut one end square and then finally to length. Since I started doing this many years ago clamping glue ups is easy, no need to crank the clamps down hard as everything is flat and straight.

It's to the point that I won't buy hardwood surfaced to 3/4" as I can never get parts flat and straight enough out of it for my tastes. Having said all this, I am not a production shop, just a serious hobbiest. In commercial shop you would straight line rip, glue up panels, and then flatten the glue ups on the wide belt .

[Tom Bain]

It's to the point that I won't buy hardwood surfaced to 3/4" as I can never get parts flat and straight enough out of it for my tastes. Having said all this, I am not a production shop, just a serious hobbiest. In commercial shop you would straight line rip, glue up panels, and then flatten the glue ups on the wide belt .

As a mere hobbiest, this was a revelation to me when I spent a week at a high-end commercial furniture operation a few years ago. The wood never went to the jointer. Ripped, glued up in a giant hydraulic clamp assembly, then to the TimeSaver (very aptly named) ... and out comes perfectly flat and dimensioned panels almost like magic, then off to the CNC to dimension/cut parts.

Thankfully, I find it satisfying to dress lumber on the jointer and planer watching as the rough lumber reveals itself, so don't really mind the effort.

[Brian Holcombe]

My process is to cut rough to length, bandsaw rough to size followed by face jointing, edge jointing, edge up through the planer to parallel, then thickness. After which I cut one end square and then to length.

Throughout this process I’m eliminating defects from the final part.

This is more time consuming then working S2S through to a glueup then through the timesaver but I’ll argue that it makes a more accurate result.

The range of tolerance for flatness depends on the product, often enough things like table tops don’t need to super flat if they’re being drawn to a base, but parts that will be worked through joinery machines are best made as flat and true as reasonably possible.

[mark mcfarlane]

...

The joy of working with perfectly flat stock, can not be exaggerated.

...


This ^.

That being said, I'm kind of like the OP in that if I don't need an exact rectangular chunk of wood for a specific part I may not joint it. The more complex the project the more likely every part gets treated the same and jointed.

[Andrew Seemann]

One thing to add is "plane long; edge joint short" I always plane boards as long as practical, so that the least amount is lost to snipe. I then rough cut the boards to length (unless the final length is really short) and edge joint. The shorter the boards, the more accurate your edge joint will be, especially if you don't have a really long jointer.

[Mike Cutler]

Just curious, do you always start by flattening every board?

I do not. Often my stock is fairly flat to begin with

But reading here seems like some of you always flatten just out of principle

No, I don't necessarily "start" with jointer, usually I get the material close to length and width first by other various means. After that, yeah, it hits the jointer first, and then the planer.
Like others, I also buy "rough cut" lumber to start off with, so it's kind of a necessity.

[Alan Lightstone]

SCMS to rough length, then I face joint, rest for a day, edge joint, then through the planar after another rest. Then to drum sander to get dimensions perfect to 0.01 (OCD). Eventually to table saw to cut to size.

Lots of steps, but straight, correctly sized wood.

[Jim Becker]

Well, I may be breaking some cardinal rule. But yes I chop things up to smaller sizes as a starting point (the smaller the piece the less out of flatness propagates).

Oh, I also break things down before milling. I generally skim them first if they are rough to insure I know "what's in there", mark them with chalk relative to the components i expect to take out of them, cut down to length (oversize) and then flatten and thickness them. It's very rare that a board is not "worthy" of at least one quick flattening pass before milling to thickness.

[Warren Lake]

skimming doestn tell all enough times with Cherry say pitch has gone or worse shown up once getting into the board deeper

[Jim Becker]

skimming doestn tell all enough times with Cherry say pitch has gone or worse shown up once getting into the board deeper
That's true...there can always be surprises lurking in the wood.

[Rod Sheridan]

I cut to a few mm oversized then joint and plane to finish size.......Regards, Rod

[Carl Beckett]

I cut to a few mm oversized then joint and plane to finish size.......Regards, Rod

You know, this brings up an adjacent question: ‘do you often have a ‘finished size’ in mind?

As a hobby worker, I do not. I stop milling once it cleans up or is in a ‘size range’ I want. Again reproducibility isn’t an objective. So if a side panel assembly for example, I don’t reallycare the rail/stile thickness (at least not within about a quarter of an inch). Subsequent pieces will be cut to fit. (And rarely am I building off precise/detailed plans for basic structural fit)

In a production shop this would be Crazy since every joint is custom fit. Depending on build sequence, I could have side panel assys a different thickness than back panel Assy as an example (thickness only impacts interior dimensions)

But it’s related, because there is rarely a need to have a piece with an overly precise size.

[Andrew Seemann]

I cut to a few mm oversized then joint and plane to finish size.......Regards, Rod

What do you do about snipe? On my 15" Grizzly, I still get about half of one of your millimeters of snipe on each side. It isn't a lot and could probably be sanded out, but it still irritates me and I always cut it off. It might be OK for a panel glue up, but I would never leave it on something that required joinery.

[glenn bradley]

Great discussion here. I have occasionally found a blank that is:
- flat
- the right color
- the right figure
but, for the purposes of reality, I mill everything by one method or another.


You know, this brings up an adjacent question: ‘do you often have a ‘finished size’ in mind?

Love this topic. I stray from typical dimensions in my furniture. Two end table setting side by side; one manufactured 'by the thousands' and one made individually . . . in my experience, people are drawn to the single build. This leads me to think that the slightly irregular features of the piece may contribute to some folks attraction. :confused:

Blathering aside, like Carl, I mill till I have what I want. I also measure off of the piece as I go so (despite having detailed plans in Sketch Up for some components) the fact that a rail is 13/16" thick when I get what I want leads to that deviation for the dimensions of other components in the piece.

I'm not talking about making a table 6 inches wide and 30 feet long. I am talking about subtle deviations from 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", etc. I use the golden ratio as loose (read in a Capt. Barbosa voice) guidelines for many dimensions. I freely adjust these to suit what I am after. My customers are after furniture I design and build, not furniture I copy from IKEA or Crate and Barrel :D

[Jim Becker]

You know, this brings up an adjacent question: ‘do you often have a ‘finished size’ in mind?

As a hobby worker, I do not. I stop milling once it cleans up or is in a ‘size range’ I want. Again reproducibility isn’t an objective. So if a side panel assembly for example, I don’t reallycare the rail/stile thickness (at least not within about a quarter of an inch). Subsequent pieces will be cut to fit. (And rarely am I building off precise/detailed plans for basic structural fit)

In a production shop this would be Crazy since every joint is custom fit. Depending on build sequence, I could have side panel assys a different thickness than back panel Assy as an example (thickness only impacts interior dimensions)

But it’s related, because there is rarely a need to have a piece with an overly precise size.

Some projects I work like you do and some I bring things to specific dimensions for thickness, etc. What matters the most is "proportion"...that components feel right together, both as subassemblies and for the project as a whole. Actual dimensions don't matter for that and all too often folks get pigeonholed into thinking in terms of "half inch" or "three quarters inch" or "quarter inch" when some other smaller or larger dimension is perfectly fine. Maybe "three eighths" is the right spot or "whatever" is ideal for the project at hand. This very thing is why I'm a fan of things like story sticks and/or having a general dimension in mind and then filling things in with components that are sized exactly from the "framework" of the project, rather than calculated in advance. Honestly, this is the most precise way to work because every component is fitted in the most optimal way relative to other adjacent components. But you are absolutely correct that this isn't the best thing for "production" work because there, repeatability is really important for efficiency and cost control. This is the difference between on-off fine furniture/cabinetry and production work for sure when it comes to building/measuring techniques.

Oh, and being anal about grain and color matching is a good practice in all of this, too. It can be the difference between a very nice project result and an outstanding one.

[Chris Fournier]

Always jointer first following preliminary break out of the lumber into over sized component pieces. Then plane away. I put stickered rest days in between the steps of my dimensioning process to allow for movement that I can account for once again with my jointer then planer.

[Warren Lake]

good to see your attention to stuff Jim. Dont see it as being anal, old guys I know payed attention to all as that is how they were taught. One got whacked for taking a short cut. It got figured out and refined to a level and stayed that way forever then went down hill Many times you can look at work and see if someone was trained or not.

[Michael Costa]

Using a jointer first never hurts. Unless of course you're like me and decide to take the tip of your finger off with said jointer. :eek:

[Rod Sheridan]

What do you do about snipe? On my 15" Grizzly, I still get about half of one of your millimeters of snipe on each side. It isn't a lot and could probably be sanded out, but it still irritates me and I always cut it off. It might be OK for a panel glue up, but I would never leave it on something that required joinery.

Hi Andrew, my planer is properly calibrated and has zero snipe.

It can neither be measured nor detected by touch or visual inspection.

Now, if you’re down to snipe on 0.5mm length, that would disappear when you trim it to length.......Regards, Rod

[Rod Sheridan]

You know, this brings up an adjacent question: ‘do you often have a ‘finished size’ in mind?

As a hobby worker, I do not. I stop milling once it cleans up or is in a ‘size range’ I want. Again reproducibility isn’t an objective. So if a side panel assembly for example, I don’t reallycare the rail/stile thickness (at least not within about a quarter of an inch). Subsequent pieces will be cut to fit. (And rarely am I building off precise/detailed plans for basic structural fit)


In a production shop this would be Crazy since every joint is custom fit. Depending on build sequence, I could have side panel assys a different thickness than back panel Assy as an example (thickness only impacts interior dimensions)

But it’s related, because there is rarely a need to have a piece with an overly precise size.

Hi, I normally make all my parts to a size listed on my drawing.

If the parts aren’t the correct size, my fabrication method doesn’t work in some cases.

Now, if the table top for example was 2mm thicker, that wouldn’t be a problem, if the drawer front was 2mm wider than required that would be a problem.

It’s simply the way I work.....Rod

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Andrew, my planer is properly calibrated and has zero snipe.

It can neither be measured nor detected by touch or visual inspection.

Now, if you’re down to snipe on 0.5mm length, that would disappear when you trim it to length.......Regards, Rod

That is another thing that properly jointing helps to minimize or in many cases eliminate, in my experience. I watch the boards going through the planer and if they spring up slightly they will snipe (this is fairly common for planing very thin stock in my case (1/8") With normal size boards, properly jointed flat I have basically nothing for snipe unless they're so long and heavy that they depress the springs on the way out.

[Robert Engel]

A board can look really flat but in the rough state it still needs to be jointed even if just to get a smooth bearing side for the planer. If a board is dead flat looking and plenty thick enough, I'll usually skim both sides on the planer because I need to see the grain and defects.

That said, a surfaced board can look really flat, but be sure to check for twist, especially if its been kiln dried. I find this is where a lot of issues come in with surfaced lumber.