Is Titebond III worth it, and can it be your only wood glue?

[Jon Crafting]

My apologies in advance as I'm sure this topic has been covered elsewhere in the forum, but since the terms "glue" "wood" "best", and even "titebond" are used so much in this forum, I was unable to find a specific thread on this topic despite my attempts to search one out.

So I'm looking to purchase my first gallon of wood glue in preparation for building my first woodworking bench. Some future projects I plan to make also include cutting boards, pizza peels, and possibly some other items that would come in contact with food. Titebond II and III are both water resistant and FDA approved for indirect food contact and so I assume they are what most experts recommended for using to make cutting boards and peels.

My questions are:
1) Why is Titebond III $10's more than Titebond II?
2) Is Titebond III worth the premium?
3) If I get Titebond III will I ever run into situations were I wished I had Titebond II or Titebond Original instead of Titebond III?

One of the main reasons to buy glue in bulk, other than the obvious anticipation of needing a lot for my workbench, is that it's an efficient way to reduce hobby cost in the long term. While I like efficient cost cutting and making sure my hobby budget goes as far as it can, I do not mind spending money where it is used well, or reduces the clutter of having multiple types of very similar products.

I'm sure there are multiple opinions on this, but if a few of you experts could part with some wisdom in this area, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Jon

[Craig Day]

One of the main reasons I use 2 over 3 is for the longer open assembly time... for titebond II it's 3-5 mins, and for titebond III it's 8-10mins. If you're doing a big glue up then having a longer open assembly time is essential. My guess is your bench build will be a pretty big gluing effort so I would lean toward a longer open assembly time.

[Mike King]

One of the main reasons I use 2 over 3 is for the longer open assembly time... for titebond II it's 3-5 mins, and for titebond III it's 8-10mins. If you're doing a big glue up then having a longer open assembly time is essential. My guess is your bench build will be a pretty big gluing effort so I would lean toward a longer open assembly time.
I think you meant 3 over 2 and I agree — the open time is a big deal.

[Nick Decker]

I usually use III, but II has worked just fine as well.

I'd be careful about buying in bulk, though. Both versions will go bad in about a year after opening. I just threw out a couple of smaller bottles of III the other day. Both were about a third full, but were a much darker brown than when first opened.

[Mark Rakestraw]

I like regular Titebond because it washes out of my pants, which is where I wipe my finger after spreading the glue :)

[glenn bradley]

TB-III is generally the only PVA in the shop.

[James Tibbetts]

I believe the biggest difference besides open time is that III is waterproof for outside use.
There is/was a version of II called Extend that an even greater open time.

[Andrew Joiner]

This thread could reach a " sticking point":)
I use Titebond III if water resistance is needed. Titebond Extend for most things. I test glues often before I use them.

[Craig Day]

Whoops... yes... 3 over 2!

[Andrew Hughes]

I hardly ever use titebond 3 anymore. I’ve actually found Elmer’s Glue all white glue to do most of my needs. It has a very long open time it’s translucent dry and inexpensive.

[Mark Bolton]

The answer is no, and no. Do your own tests and you will find that TBIII is not the best glue for most applications and is far weaker than each level below. Straight titebond or titebond super is far superior to tbIII. Again. Take the time to do your own torture tests and you will see it for yourself. If your looking for water/weather resistance again it will fail and you'll find yourself using epoxy or urethane.

People default is if tite bond is good, 2 is better, and III (or ULTIMATE) has got to be best.

Glue yourself up several test pieces identically with the different glues and torture test them. The results will be clear.

[Ron Citerone]

In regards to your question, experience and project, I think Titebond III would be your best choice mainly for the extra open time. I built 2 workbenches last year and used Titebond II, but I have been doing this 40 years. It was often a rush to get the clamps on in time with II even with experience. Therefore I recommend III for your first bench.

P.S. for gluing the top, I would glue one or two pieces at a time so you have less going on and more time to get clamps on.

P.S.S. No it should not be your only glue. Tietebond II is my go to glue mostly. I gotta say for longer open time for projects with no moisture exposure I still like good old Elmer Glue All. I have 7 or 8 pieces of furniture built 30-35 years ago with Elmers and no failures yet.

My 2 pennies
ron

[Dave VanDewerker]

Titebond has a shelf life of one year , might last a bit longer that. Once the glue separates that say it is no good. A gallon of glue is a LOT of glue to use up in one year

[Peter Kuhlman]

By no means do I build heirloom furniture for the ages but if you see yourself doing that then glue selection becomes very important. Many glues like Titebond II and III are permanent glues meaning future repairs are extremely difficult or impossible. Basic Elmer’s white glue works very well and is cheap - but has minimal moisture resistance. I use the stuff a lot for it’s long glue-up time.

[Jim Becker]

I pretty much only use Titebond III at this point because if covers all my bases. The only time I regretted it was when a mistake was made in positioning an appliqué on a client's project and it was major, major hard to get it off without damaging what was under it. In fact, there was damage, but I found a creative way to get around it. (this is specific to Peter's point...which is spot on!) I have nothing against the I and II versions...I just don't like to keep a lot of glue around at one time and it's simpler to use just the one version for me.

[Nick Lazz]

Too many things in woodworking I over think. Glue however is not one of them. Maybe that’s bad...I use III on everything. Never had a problem and even though they say it’s water resistant I wouldn’t use it outside. I’m not saying it won’t work outside, but if I wanted real water resistance I would use a plastic resin of some kind like Ultra Cat to help avoid glue creep.

[Jon Crafting]

Thank you all for the many responses.

I do think the longer open time for III would work better for me than the II, especially on a larger projects like a workbench, and it appears that the majority agree. That said, I'm curious to know more about the conflicting points that Mark Bolton brought up, as well as the Elmer's Glue option that Andrew Hughes mentioned.

If I had all the time and money to play with, I'd love to construct my own experiments and torture test glue layups, but as my time and hobby funds are limited I'd much rather accept expert advise. Has anyone else other than Mark performed torture tests (on wood of course!) and come up with similarly conflicting results? According to the specs of each of the Titebonds the psi strength increase along with the price, but this strangely conflicts with Mark's hands-on experience.

https://twwcdn-thewoodwhisperer.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/titebond-chart.png

While doing some additional research online I noted several comments that claimed that the bond strength of all PVA glues exceeded the strength of the wood itself, and therefore if the edges were properly jointed and prepared than the failure in the joint would happen in the wood and not within the glue layer. (i.e. wood would rip out from one or both boards)
I was unable to find a psi or kPa (kilopascal, metric equivalent) for Elmer's white glue, I did find a wonderful document (Mechanical Properties of Wood (https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf)) with strengths of many many types of woods and 3,600 psi (24821 kPa) does appear to be far greater than any wood I saw on the list (attention to shear parallel to grain and tension perpendicular to grain properties). This would suggest that rather than "strength of bond", it's the other properties that you need to look at when comparing glues such as open time, dry time, viscosity, sand-ability, color, etc.

While I did not manage to find a similar thread using this forum's search function prior to starting this thread, Google finally did, so I will leave a link here a somewhat similar thread (Titebond vs Elmers (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?107968-Titebond-vs-Elmers)).

-Jon

[Bryce Walter]

The major reason I use III over anything else is that it accommodates a lower temperature. IIRC, it holds it's strength down to 47 degrees ambient during glueups. Titebond 1 & 2 are 52-55 degrees. It seems like a small difference, but for an attached (but unheated) garage during winter, it gives me a lot more days where the shop is in-play.

[Steve Demuth]

The major reason I use III over anything else is that it accommodates a lower temperature. IIRC, it holds it's strength down to 47 degrees ambient during glueups. Titebond 1 & 2 are 52-55 degrees. It seems like a small difference, but for an attached (but unheated) garage during winter, it gives me a lot more days where the shop is in-play.

Yep. Titebond III is hardly the only glue I use (I like CA for many things, and use epoxy where its gap-filling ability is important) but it's my primary go to. The fact that it's reliable at 50F, rather than "almost there" is pretty handy on the days I'm starting from a 35F shop.

[Steve Demuth]

I'd be careful about buying in bulk, though. Both versions will go bad in about a year after opening. I just threw out a couple of smaller bottles of III the other day. Both were about a third full, but were a much darker brown than when first opened.

While I agree that sticking with quantities you'll use in less than a year is wise, I am skeptical of the "it goes bad after a year" claim though. I've used quite a bit of 2-3 year old Titebond III over the years and never had a failure. I test the glue when it gets "over the hill" and if it is makes a joint stronger than the wood, consider it good for another 3-6 months.

[John TenEyck]

TB III and all PVA glues suffer from creep so they are a poor choice for bentwood laminations or gluing down shop sawn veneer; UF or epoxy are far better choices. TB III looses a lot of strength at high temp.; UF and epoxy again are better choices, even TB II is better. I mostly use TB II these days for general use, but UF or epoxy where PVA's fall short.

John

[Mel Fulks]

I ,again, disagree that all PVA creeps. White glue creeps. Lack of creep with yellow was recognized early on as an advantage over white. Many times I was summoned to retrieve a piece from the finishing room to re sand a joint that had
moved and was not flush. Never happened again after we switched to yellow. I concede that that an overly loose fitting mortise and tenon joint might creep a little even with yellow glue.

[Andrew Joiner]

Thank you all for the many responses.

I do think the longer open time for III would work better for me than the II, especially on a larger projects like a workbench, and it appears that the majority agree. That said, I'm curious to know more about the conflicting points that Mark Bolton brought up, as well as the Elmer's Glue option that Andrew Hughes mentioned.

-Jon
You can test samples for yourself. In your environment with materials and temps you'll have at the real glue-up time. It's fast and cheaper than a bad glue up.:) I do this often.
I have found I like Titebond extend glue the most. It works @ 40 degrees and above by Titebond's specs. I've tested samples at 40 degrees for an hour than put clamped samples in the freezer over night to simulate the worst cold I'd ever get in my shop. The samples break the wood not the glue line. I trust it.
I didn't test Titebond III for cold. I did find it to be not as strong as other yellow glues. The first bottle of III tested was dated properly but failed my normal strength tests. The second bottle tested OK but it does seem slightly weaker than yellow glues. Yes, it's stronger after soak tests but not by a lot. Even white glue breaks the wood after being in the shower a few days. I tested III a lot because it was new to me.Then it seems everyone raves about it so I kept testing. I'm not raving. Mark Bolton has even more experience that I tend to agree with.

[Jay Aubuchon]

True, a gallon is a lot of glue. But, at least at the blue Borg, 4 pints costs a little more than 1 gallon.

i store mine in a cool, dark location. I shake it well whenever I decant a usable portion into a smaller bottle. Seems to be usable well beyond a year.

[Joe Jensen]

I am another person who has a bad habit of wiping glue off my fingers onto my pants. Sadly I didn't realize the Titebond III doesn't wash out like Titebond I and II. I now have several of my better jeans as workshop jeans. I will only use Titebond III now when I need water resistant glue.

[Chris Parks]

Titebond has a shelf life of one year , might last a bit longer that. Once the glue separates that say it is no good. A gallon of glue is a LOT of glue to use up in one year

I have some that is at least 3 years old and apart from needing a bit of water for thinning it still sticks stuff together ok. Having said that I will go back to using a conventional PVA because I see no advantage in paying premium prices for a glue that is doubtfully any better for straight forward work. Sacralidge I know bit apart from TB blocking up the glue bottle tip I don't see any advantage that TB has apart from external use.

[John Goodin]

If I could only use one glue it would be TB III and it is really the only PVA glue I use. As a hobbyist the price difference of glue is insignificant compared to other material costs.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
Open time/Assembly time is an important factor when dealing with a complex glue up. For this reason, Elmer's Glue-All white was advocated to me by a well known master woodworker named Frank Klausz. I did some of my own tests, edge gluing 1/4" pieces and I found that Titebond was stronger but we're talking shades of grey and Frank's point was if the joint is well fitted and/or if there is a lot of glue surface area, any glue is going to be strong enough. So I keep Titebond II, Titebond III, Elmer's Glue-All and a couple of other specialty glues on hand, and use the one best indicated for the job at hand. I'm not as big a fan of Titebond III as some, but if it is a project that needs water resistance, I use it. For things like dovetails, box joints and face gluing, I use Elmer's, and Titebond II for most other tasks. I would not feel the need to use Titebond III for a workbench.

Here is an article that talks about assembly time of various glues that you might find useful given your questions - https://www.wwgoa.com/article/measuring-wood-glue-assembly-time/

Best of luck,

[Dan Baginski]

I use 3 if I need longer open time. Anything else I use 2. 3 seems to be more runny as well if that’s a consideration. 2 seems thicker to me

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I use TB III for most projects, but have a gallon of partially used TB that is at least 8 years old, and to paraphrase the Energizer Bunny, still gluing strong. I store it in a cool dark place. The only woodworking glue I've ever had go bad is a pint of Gorilla Glue, which completely hardened in the unopened bottle in less than a year. I can't remember why I bought it, but never will again.

[mreza Salav]

Seems I'm in minority but I have less faith in TB-III than the other two. I use TB-I on a regular basis and it has never failed me. TB-III has failed at least twice on me. III seems runny and I don't like the fact that it won't wash off cloths as easily.

[Randy Heinemann]

Titebond III is waterproof and, therefore, could be used on almost any project. I have used Titebond II Extend for several years at the suggestion of a Titebond rep. I don't believe it's truly waterproof, but it does satisfy Type II water resistance standards. The biggest advantage for me is it longer open and assembly time, especially on more complicated glue-ups. If I were doing project on which I wanted to be sure it would hold in a more outdoor setting, I'd probably still use Titebond III.

[Simon MacGowen]

This thread shows one thing clearly: the power of marketing...that drives many to choose TB III over TB II or I. How many of you who default to TB III really use it because of its water resistance? What were building that needed to be water resistant? And as usual, open time is mixed up with assembly/working time.

For Pete's sake, how many you have experienced a joint failure because TB III was not used? Close to zero, I would say.

I have used almost all brands of PVA glues as well as white glue, old brown glue and more, and my conclusion is it does not matter as long as your joint is properly cut, glue fresh (no sour smell), and glue-up done and set in room temp.

Simon

[Kevin Beitz]

I had to put this out there....
I have worked for years in a textile factory that had a dye room.
They had 55gal. drums of starch. It smelled and looked like Elmers
glue. So one day I took some and glued two 2x4's together. I could
not get them apart the next day. do you think it's all the same thing?

[Zac wingert]

I found my tendency is to use TBII orTBIII depending on the color and properties of the material I am working with. This has been talked about recently, tb2 dries whiter/yellower and tb3 browner. I choose it by which one will be easier to hide it. Most all mass manufactured glues are strong enough and work good enough for general use. Had a lot of failures but yet to have anything fail where I blamed the glue.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I never buy glue in quantity.

IMHO - it's penny wise and pound foolish.

Why risk the integrity of a project for only a pittance?

I'm rehabbing a house right now & have to build a pantry, linen closet & a couple/three kitchen cabinets & a bunch of doors for the cabinets that are there. n total, I might need a quart of glue.

I ran across some Elmer's Wood Glue Max @ a closeout store for $1.42 a pint. It's good stuff - 10 to 15 min open time & ANSI type 1 waterproof - - similar product to TBIII.

[Chris Parks]

This thread shows one thing clearly: the power of marketing...that drives many to choose TB III over TB II or I. How many of you who default to TB III really use it because of its water resistance? What were building that needed to be water resistant? And as usual, open time is mixed up with assembly/working time.

For Pete's sake, how many you have experienced a joint failure because TB III was not used? Close to zero, I would say.

I have used almost all brands of PVA glues as well as white glue, old brown glue and more, and my conclusion is it does not matter as long as your joint is properly cut, glue fresh (no sour smell), and glue-up done and set in room temp.

Simon

Yep, take some PVA, make it yellow instead of white, change the viscocity as needed and market the hell out of it.....don't call me cynical.

[Derek Cohen]

So why has no one considered Titebond Liquid Hide Glue?! It is the glue I use with all furniture joints - it is has the longest open time of all the glues mentioned, is reversible, does not stain the wood, and cleans up with water. Importantly, it is reversible - have you never screwed up a joint, or needed to repair one? If I need a glue for use in humid (not wet) areas, such as a kitchen, then I use Titebond III. It is not waterproof. If you want waterproof, use a two-pack epoxy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Demuth]

Yep, take some PVA, make it yellow instead of white, change the viscocity as needed and market the hell out of it.....don't call me cynical.

Your cynicism is fair, if there really is no difference of note between the glues. But the differences in open and assembly time and chalk temperature are real, and make a difference in my shop at least. The difference in price is also real, but for most non-production woodworkers, irrelevant on most projects. If I'm not doing something very glue intensive (like glued bent laminations, e.g.) a quart of PVA glue will last me 6 months or more of every weeked shop work. Titebond III costs $4 or $5 more per quart than Titebond II or Original. It's literally a rounding error in my materials cost over a 6 month period - the equivalent of a board foot of very ordinary hardwood.

[Chris Parks]

I have never had a problem with open time and I think a lot of people get hung up on it to some extent but then I have never had to assemble a complex piece of furniture or what I call complex. Also I think most people use too much glue altogether, if pieces tend to slide and move when assembling then it is time to look at how much glue is being used as the glue is causing the parts to float on fluid so to speak. If I am gluing panels for instance I will use enough glue for it to be just seen on the surface and then wait a bit until the panels when put together do not float on the glue at all and when aligning the top and bottom surface they stay put. It is a bit of a balancing act and some practise on scrap will not go astray. BTW I have never had a panel come apart using that method and get damn all squeeze out.

[Ron Citerone]

Your cynicism is fair, if there really is no difference of note between the glues. But the differences in open and assembly time and chalk temperature are real, and make a difference in my shop at least. The difference in price is also real, but for most non-production woodworkers, irrelevant on most projects. If I'm not doing something very glue intensive (like glued bent laminations, e.g.) a quart of PVA glue will last me 6 months or more of every weeked shop work. Titebond III costs $4 or $5 more per quart than Titebond II or Original. It's literally a rounding error in my materials cost over a 6 month period - the equivalent of a board foot of very ordinary hardwood.

I agree, Elmers, TB1, TB2, TB3 all seem plenty strong to me. Chalk Temp and open time are important for complicated glue ups and as someone said about the attached unheated garage temp issue. (Which I have.)

Believe what you want, and I'm sure I might get beat up over this one. When I started teaching there was closets full of Elmers Glue All, I think the previous guys got a quantity deal and stocked the place. 30 years later I used up the last of it and saw no change in working properties or strength................not sure if it is the same with TB products.

[Prashun Patel]

+1 on Simon's words. This has been my experience. 3 has a little more open time so I tend to use it for that marginal peace of mind alone. That being said, if I really am concerned with water resistance or open time I will use epoxy.

TB3 dries dark brown vs orange, so that might be a consideration on darker woods.

But I agree that the glue choice isn't so critical most of time as is proper joint prep.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use II rather than III, and occasional hide glue. There are subtle differences.

I also veneer with II and haven’t experience creep with shop dawn veneers. I spoke to Franklin prior to using it, they said it would work fine and it has. I make boxes and panels and have the ability to check in on them routinely. I started this routine after running out of cold press glue and found that I liked II better than cold press glue. I’ve had considerably fewer issues with II than other veneer glues.

One problem is that I cannot actually consume enough glue to make it worthwhile to maintain so many glues.

I have used plenty of Old Brown Glue, it’s great for certain things but I’m less than impressed overall. It’s brittle and so it makes noise in stained connections. I may continue to use it for special cases but not for general use.

In theory you can dissassemble a joint made with hide glue, but a joint with sufficient surface area and little access to that surface area is going to be very difficult to take apart.

[Patrick Kane]

Mine comes down to simplicity. I never know if im going to be gluing up a quick end grain board, countertop, indoor furniture, or outdoor furniture. I keep west systems epoxy on hand for when i need bulletproof exterior resistance. The rest of the time i buy III by the gallon. I use 4-5 gallons of TB III a year. I have noticed some creep on the walnut arms of my morris chair, but the sapele chair next to it doesnt have the same creep issues. Other than that, it has performed well indoors and outdoors. I have two adirondack chairs that get the snot beat out of them by snow, sun, and rain, and those were put together with TB III. I did read that TB I is actually stronger on indoor applications than TB III, but i like having one glue on hand that covers all my bases well.

[Matthew Hills]

I hardly ever use titebond 3 anymore. I’ve actually found Elmer’s Glue all white glue to do most of my needs. It has a very long open time it’s translucent dry and inexpensive.

I have also been using this as well in some recent (not-outdoor) projects, primarily for the very long open time.
Note that there are some downsides (https://www.thoughtco.com/step-by-step-slime-instructions-604173) to buying this in quantity -- if there are munchkins in the vicinity, pay attention if they start asking about borax...

I would recommend dating your glue bottles.

Matt

[Frank Pratt]

I use type II mostly & buy it in gallon jugs. I have had to throw the last bit out a couple of times, but 1 gallon is about the same price as 1/2 a gallon purchased in the smaller bottles. If stored in a cool, dark temperature stable spot it will last a lot more than a year. I've had it last over 3 years & not go bad.

[glenn bradley]

Interesting that this has spawned so much conversation. What a great thread. Obviously there are other forms of glue but, you were asking about TB-III. You found the fundamental data that properly used, PVA is stronger than the wood itself. After the adhesive qualities things become more subjective with woodworkers often favoring different glues for the same task for different reasons.

As to trying to save money on glue, I will use just a portion of a 16 oz bottle making something like a chest of drawers or a hutch. That is, I have no need to have a gallon of glue on hand at any given time. Your ease of access to the product you prefer or your environmental situation may effect that choice.

After having tossed excess glue in larger containers due to separation failure (the glue would not re-emulsify) I just started buying 16 or 32 oz bottles, whatever was handy or on sale at the time I was running low. I decant the glue into Glu-bots and/or a glue well depending on what I am doing and cannot remember the last time I had to throw glue out. Your consumption rate will alter your purchasing decisions but, I would start with 16 oz bottles and see how it goes.

[Tim Bueler]

I use TB III in the shop because:
-It has a slightly longer open time than TB II,
-It blends better color wise with the woods that I use
-I occasionally build pieces that require a certain amount of water resistance and I feel better about using TB III vs I or II. (I like things that make me feel good, even if it's allegedly hype :p)
-I only need one type of PVA glue in the shop
-It still works well down to about 45 degrees.

There may be better adhesives for any/all of the above but TB III covers these bases pretty well and I buy and use between 2 and 3 gal/yr. I have tested every glue I've used by building a cabinet door frame, sans panel, using both alder and hickory, two of my most commonly used woods. After a couple days I tweak the door diagonally until failure. For every one I've tested the wood has failed before the joint, usually with a long shard of long grain still glued to end grain. I've performed these tests all within the last 3 yrs using TB I, II and III.

While TB III is the only PVA glue I have in my shop I also regularly use CA, epoxy and polyurethane depending on application.

These are materials and techniques that work for me, in my shop. YMMV, as it invariably does, depending on your techniques, materials used and intended purpose. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[John TenEyck]

Mine comes down to simplicity. I never know if im going to be gluing up a quick end grain board, countertop, indoor furniture, or outdoor furniture. I keep west systems epoxy on hand for when i need bulletproof exterior resistance. The rest of the time i buy III by the gallon. I use 4-5 gallons of TB III a year. I have noticed some creep on the walnut arms of my morris chair, but the sapele chair next to it doesnt have the same creep issues. Other than that, it has performed well indoors and outdoors. I have two adirondack chairs that get the snot beat out of them by snow, sun, and rain, and those were put together with TB III. I did read that TB I is actually stronger on indoor applications than TB III, but i like having one glue on hand that covers all my bases well.

You should not assume epoxy is a bullet proof solution for all exterior applications. I thought so, too, until someone on another forum pointed out that most epoxies lose significant strength at high temperature. West Systems data shows this to be true. I'm not saying failure will be an automatic consequence, only that applications where temperature is a concern require careful consideration of which glue will work best. For gluing up exterior doors I'm still using epoxy, but I'm looking for a better alternative that still has such long open time and user friendly properties.


John

[mark mcfarlane]

I like regular Titebond because it washes out of my pants, which is where I wipe my finger after spreading the glue :)

So that is where that stain on my pants came from....

[John TenEyck]

I use II rather than III, and occasional hide glue. There are subtle differences.

I also veneer with II and haven’t experience creep with shop dawn veneers. I spoke to Franklin prior to using it, they said it would work fine and it has. I make boxes and panels and have the ability to check in on them routinely. I started this routine after running out of cold press glue and found that I liked II better than cold press glue. I’ve had considerably fewer issues with II than other veneer glues.

One problem is that I cannot actually consume enough glue to make it worthwhile to maintain so many glues.

I have used plenty of Old Brown Glue, it’s great for certain things but I’m less than impressed overall. It’s brittle and so it makes noise in stained connections. I may continue to use it for special cases but not for general use.

In theory you can dissassemble a joint made with hide glue, but a joint with sufficient surface area and little access to that surface area is going to be very difficult to take apart.

Brian, I've had at least 2 seam failures with PVA cold press glues on shop sawn veneer laminated to BB plywood. Both were with Better Bond and both were with 1/16" rift sawn white oak. When I talked with Joe Woodworker about it he told me that it was not recommended for 1/16" shop sawn veneer. At that time, there was no mention of that potential problem on his website; I believe there now is. After those reputation damaging incidents I switched to Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue or epoxy and have had no repeats. Perhaps Titebond works better than Better Bond on shop sawn veneer, or perhaps your veneer is substantially thinner than 1/16". I'm happy you've had no problems, but my experience suggests PVA glues are not reliable enough for my needs.

John

[Sean Nagle]

I would recommend dating your glue bottles.

This is when your lifestyle leads to desperation.

[Simon MacGowen]

So why has no one considered Titebond Liquid Hide Glue?! It is the glue I use with all furniture joints - it is has the longest open time of all the glues mentioned, is reversible, does not stain the wood, and cleans up with water. Importantly, it is reversible - have you never screwed up a joint, or needed to repair one?

Derek

I use old brown glue...only tried LHG a couple of times, and did not see any difference from OBG. They are more expensive than PVA, and so I use them sparingly for complex glue-ups.
Simon

[Sean Nagle]

Titebond Original is the glue I have used for almost 30 years without any issues. However, a project might call for a different glue. Projects that will see high humidity or water will require two-part epoxy or Titbond III. If a long open time is needed, I like to use Titebond Extend and if I need very long open time, I'll use liquid hide glue. I have never used a vacuum press, but I read that Urea Formaldehyde or Resorcinol are the glues of choice.

Also, I'm of the belief that if you are building an heirloom piece that is to last generations, hide glue should be used for joints that could fail from strain and age to allow for proper future repairs.

By the way, I really dislike Titebond III because it can't be washed out of clothing.

[Sean Nagle]

Another special glue requirement is gap-filling needs which favor epoxy and UF and then there's melamine which I like to use Roo [melamine] glue, incredible stuff.

[Edwin Santos]

Yep, take some PVA, make it yellow instead of white, change the viscocity as needed and market the hell out of it.....don't call me cynical.


This thread shows one thing clearly: the power of marketing...that drives many to choose TB III over TB II or I. How many of you who default to TB III really use it because of its water resistance? What were building that needed to be water resistant?

For Pete's sake, how many you have experienced a joint failure because TB III was not used? Close to zero, I would say.

I have used almost all brands of PVA glues as well as white glue, old brown glue and more, and my conclusion is it does not matter as long as your joint is properly cut, glue fresh (no sour smell), and glue-up done and set in room temp.

Simon


Your cynicism is fair, if there really is no difference of note between the glues. But the differences in open and assembly time and chalk temperature are real, and make a difference in my shop at least. The difference in price is also real, but for most non-production woodworkers, irrelevant on most projects. If I'm not doing something very glue intensive (like glued bent laminations, e.g.) a quart of PVA glue will last me 6 months or more of every weeked shop work. Titebond III costs $4 or $5 more per quart than Titebond II or Original. It's literally a rounding error in my materials cost over a 6 month period - the equivalent of a board foot of very ordinary hardwood.

It's a rounding error for you but in % terms, it's much more than that for Franklin.

Just to join the cynics for moment - Imagine the CEO of Franklin needs to juice the bottom line in some way with little or no increase in costs. So he/she makes some non-material change to the formulation of any of their PVA glues, maybe just the color, and calls it TB IV Extreme or Super-Ultimate. Charge about 20% more for it, only a few bucks per gallon. Would the power of marketing make people automatically buy it? Because II has got to be better than I, thus III must be better than II so of course......

Just making a hypothetical point about marketing, not meaning to paint the CEO of Franklin as nefarious. And I'm not disputing that there are differences in the characteristics of some of these glues. But it's always a valid question for the consumer to ask "better in what way, and better for whom"?

[Mark Bolton]

The main issue is its perfectly fine to use a single glue by default if your work is somewhat standardized and your default glue fits your standardized workflow whether it be hobby or full time shop. The point is if you default to TBIII, or any glue for that matter, and do varied work, your going to wind up getting bit and buying back a job (i.e. having to re-make an entire job for yourself or someone else for free, give the customer their money back, or defend yourself in a lawsuit) because of complacency. Run TBIII on a job where creep or any other number of standard failures for that glue bites you in the butt... and your sunk. Just as stated with epoxy for exterior work coupled with heat, or TBIII coupled with heat, is a guaranteed failure. I dont care what anyone says about PVA and creep. They will all creep at some point. It most certainly comes down to a perfectly fitted joint, with perfectly selected material, will show less problems. But we all operate in the real world. And when it rears its head (TBIII) it will never be at an opportune time.

I understand fully the generic question is for a hobby level shop that does fairly average work, do they need to inventory 19 different glue types. The answer is no. Straight titebond (original) would be the default for day in and day out work. Maybe TBII if you are willing to lose a little bit of strength (marginally measurable). And you bring in the exterior/water resistant glue of choice as needed based on the project. We cant keep PU glue in the shop (gorilla glue). A brand new bottle will be deader than a hammer in a month or two unopened. An open bottle, days or a week or two and its in the trash. You bring in what you need for the job, if there is any left it may go on the shelf, it may go in the trash.

We buy TB original in gallons and super in pails. Gallons we squeeze all the air out when filling bench bottles and put the cap on. Pails if we will be slow for a while we will push some poly paint masking film down in the bucket to keep the air off the top so it doesnt skin but thats rare.

Assembling cabinet doors with TBIII and cope and stick joints telegraphing through a pigmented finish is the dead indicator that its not a great glue for all applications. Some creep in a cutting board, meh.. still sucks but..., glue line movement/failure, finish failure, with TBIII means it will never be in my shop. Too many better alternatives. Sure would be nice to have a single go-to but I can break TBIII joints far too easy that are much stronger with Original. Now glue up a couple scraps and toss them outside for a couple weeks in the rain, snow, sun.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, I've had at least 2 seam failures with PVA cold press glues on shop sawn veneer laminated to BB plywood. Both were with Better Bond and both were with 1/16" rift sawn white oak. When I talked with Joe Woodworker about it he told me that it was not recommended for 1/16" shop sawn veneer. At that time, there was no mention of that potential problem on his website; I believe there now is. After those reputation damaging incidents I switched to Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue or epoxy and have had no repeats. Perhaps Titebond works better than Better Bond on shop sawn veneer, or perhaps your veneer is substantially thinner than 1/16". I'm happy you've had no problems, but my experience suggests PVA glues are not reliable enough for my needs.

John

Thats been the case, I find Titebond II pretty reliable. I’ve had the occasional partial delamination (lifted corners) In stressed situations where they were pulled back in an assembly, but I blame myself for that rather than the glue. Outside of that I haven’t experienced massive failures. It’s stronger than pva cold press glue. Franklin told me that PVA cold press was formulated to minimize bleed through, rather than maximize bond strength. I’m rarely veneering anything thin enough to concern myself with bleed through.

I walked through the kitchen I made last year using mainly titebond II and III to glue panels, all doing fine so far and so now I’ve seen a full year’s humidity swing on them. Those veneers were all left at .110”thickness.

I saw your comments in prior threads about that with shop sawn veneers and so I wanted to move onto something other than better bond, but actually I had no trouble with that either.

I have had entire sheets delaminate with woodweld, and by that point I had already a few years of veneering experience and had been vacuum pressing for a few years at least. I may try unibond still for a harder bond, but I’ve not had much reason to change.

Mainly I laminate quartersawn material.

[Doug Dawson]

So why has no one considered Titebond Liquid Hide Glue?! It is the glue I use with all furniture joints - it is has the longest open time of all the glues mentioned, is reversible, does not stain the wood, and cleans up with water. Importantly, it is reversible - have you never screwed up a joint, or needed to repair one? If I need a glue for use in humid (not wet) areas, such as a kitchen, then I use Titebond III. It is not waterproof. If you want waterproof, use a two-pack epoxy.

I'm with Derek on this. Hide glue rocks. On fine furniture it's the way to go, unless you need something for its properties associated with water, in which case I use TB II as the default (I don't know why, I just always have.) Sometimes you don't even need that, such as with some interlocking joints, or draw-bored M&T. The ultimate in repairability! Take that, you guys who get comebacks.

[Doug Dawson]

The main issue is its perfectly fine to use a single glue by default if your work is someone standardized and your default glue fits your standardized workflow whether it be hobby or full time shop. The point is if you default to TBIII, or any glue for that matter, and do varied work, your going to wind up getting bit and buying back a job (i.e. having to re-make an entire job for yourself or someone else for free, give the customer their money back, or defend yourself in a lawsuit) because of complacency. Run TBIII on a job where creep or any other number of standard failures for that glue bites you in the butt... and your sunk. Just as stated with epoxy for exterior work coupled with heat, or TBIII coupled with heat, is a guaranteed failure. I dont care what anyone says about PVA and creep. They will all creep at some point. It most certainly comes down to a perfectly fitted joint, with perfectly selected material, will show less problems. But we all operate in the real world. And when it rears its head (TBIII) it will never be at an opportune time.

If you get comebacks (or are concerned about them,) why aren't you using hide glue?

[Ron Citerone]

This is when your lifestyle leads to desperation.


That is wrong on many levels!!!!!!!:D:D:cool::eek:

[Mark Bolton]

If you get comebacks (or are concerned about them,) why aren't you using hide glue?

Hide glue? Your kidding me? Other than preservation work why in the world would anyone use hide glue.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hide glue? Your kidding me? Other than preservation work why in the world would anyone use hide glue.

I use it in certainly joinery work.

[Jon Crafting]

What a wonderful exchange of information, experiences, and knowledge. Thank you for all the feedback.

To be honest I had not really considered the factor of shelf life and that kind of changes the equation regarding what volume to purchase. Comparing only between the 16oz(1/8gal) and the 128oz (1gal) volumes, if you can consume 1 gallon of glue before it goes bad, you would save 50% by buying the 1 gallon jug over buying 8 16oz bottles. (i.e. Titebond III @ Lowes is $29 for 1 gal or $8 for a 16oz bottles). If shelf life is really only one year as some members have experienced, then the deciding factor would be whether or not you consume more than 1/2 gallon (64oz) of glue or more in a year.

That said, Titebond's website FAQ's (http://www.titebond.com/resources/use/glues/faqs) lists the their "conservative estimate" for minimum shelf life of Titebond III as two years. They also claim that with proper storage their wood glues can last up to 10 years or longer (Titebond: How to store your wood glue for longer life (http://blog.titebond.com/page/how-to-store-your-wood-glue-for-longer-life)).

From the hands on experience of forum members posting in this thread alone, the shelf life appears to have a very larger variation. Perhaps the take away is that each member's storage practices and environments are unique and vary widely. This leads me to believe that it may be well worth the minimal extra effort to pamper bulk buy glues and keep them in a dry & cool area inside the house instead of in the garage or workshop.

Yesterday I picked up a gallon of Titebond III, but am now strongly considering taking it back and exchanging it for a 16oz bottle and kicking the "bulk buy" can(jug?) down the road a little further. In a couple of months once my workbench is built and I've completed other projects, if I'm running out of glue like there's no tomorrow, and if I'm satisfied with the glue's performance, maybe I'll grab the gallon jug instead.

-Jon

[Jon Nuckles]

I use glue quickly enough to buy in at least half gallons, but I still buy in pints because the pint bottles work well for application. I've tried glue-bots, but don't find them to lay down as uniform a stripe as the Titebond pint bottles, and they seem to clog more easily. The price difference between pints and gallons isn't enough to make a difference in my world, and if I have to buy the gallon of glue and a glue-bot to apply it, most of my savings are eaten up. (I don't use squeeze mustard, so those bottles are not an option. ;))

I used to use Titebond III for walnut and original for maple, but realized that a good tight glueline doesn't really show the color of the glue. Now I use Titebond III for all my PVA glue needs unless I need even more open time, in which case I use Extend.

I have never had a PVA glue joint failure and the relative strength of the various PVA glues seems almost irrelevant. And no offense intended to those who say Titebond III is not as strong as the other versions, but I choose to believe Franklin's tests over the tests or experience of other users. It just seems like Franklin has a lot riding on the accuracy of their tests in reputation and potential liability. And, since any PVA glue is stronger than the wood it is gluing, how can you test the strength of a wood glue joint once the glue is fully cured? (That's a serious question and I'm sure there must be a way, but I'm having a hard time picturing what it is.)

With respect to the OP's need to find a glue for pizza peels, what do others recommend for something that will likely face a lot of heat? It sounds like neither PVA nor epoxy is a good choice.

[Brian Holcombe]

John,

Here is an example from around the house, this is a titebond II panel, I don't remember what I planed the veneer to, but I may well have trimmed them down to .060", it's been too long for me to remember exactly. The wrap is solid wood. The veneer is flat sawn and the finish is shellac. I think it's about 12" wide overall, There are at least two seams and I can't find them.

This is a humidor I made for myself, grouping it in with another project.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/img_2541.jpg

[Jim Becker]

I use glue quickly enough to buy in at least half gallons, but I still buy in pints because the pint bottles work well for application.

Same here...I have the one I'm using and the next full one in the cabinet. I will say that on the last few bottles, the nozzle closing cap has been a little more prone to pull off when opening the bottle, but it's not causing me an issue.

[Art Mann]

Apparently, I don't do the quantity or variety of work that Mark Bolton does, but I have never experienced a failure using Titebond III such as he describes. I have seen creep problems from time to time, but mostly it is the original Titebond, because that is what I used decades ago. I am one of those rare individuals who has actually done failure testing on glue and joinery techniques and with few exceptions, the joint is stronger than necessary and the wood always fails first. I use Titebond III because I only want to stock one glue and I build enough things for exterior application that I think the improved water resistance over TB II is worth it. With regard to epoxy, the joint filling properties are greatly enhanced by adding a thickener like wood flour or silica to the material but I never hear of anyone actually doing that (besides boat builders).

[John TenEyck]

I use glue quickly enough to buy in at least half gallons, but I still buy in pints because the pint bottles work well for application. I've tried glue-bots, but don't find them to lay down as uniform a stripe as the Titebond pint bottles, and they seem to clog more easily. The price difference between pints and gallons isn't enough to make a difference in my world, and if I have to buy the gallon of glue and a glue-bot to apply it, most of my savings are eaten up. (I don't use squeeze mustard, so those bottles are not an option. ;))

I used to use Titebond III for walnut and original for maple, but realized that a good tight glueline doesn't really show the color of the glue. Now I use Titebond III for all my PVA glue needs unless I need even more open time, in which case I use Extend.

I have never had a PVA glue joint failure and the relative strength of the various PVA glues seems almost irrelevant. And no offense intended to those who say Titebond III is not as strong as the other versions, but I choose to believe Franklin's tests over the tests or experience of other users. It just seems like Franklin has a lot riding on the accuracy of their tests in reputation and potential liability. And, since any PVA glue is stronger than the wood it is gluing, how can you test the strength of a wood glue joint once the glue is fully cured? (That's a serious question and I'm sure there must be a way, but I'm having a hard time picturing what it is.)

With respect to the OP's need to find a glue for pizza peels, what do others recommend for something that will likely face a lot of heat? It sounds like neither PVA nor epoxy is a good choice.


I've never had a problem with TB III with the peels I've made, but they haven't gone into commercial applications. If I were to make any for commercial use I'd use UF (Plastic Resin Glue).

John

[Doug Dawson]

[/COLOR]I've never had a problem with TB III with the peels I've made, but they haven't gone into commercial applications.

As (you and other) pizza makers know, the peel doesn't stay in the oven long enough to get beyond barely warm. The heat capacity (and typical thickness) of the wood accounts for this. The moisture content of the pizza is the bigger issue.

Just say, If your peel gets hot, you're doing it wrong. Etc. :^)

[Mark Bolton]

[/COLOR]I've never had a problem with TB III with the peels I've made, but they haven't gone into commercial applications. If I were to make any for commercial use I'd use UF (Plastic Resin Glue).

John
Same here. Pizza peels see nearly zero heat. A pizza is made on them, slid off in the oven, and then pulled out of the oven with a pi that quickly cools to nothing. The heat issues you are reading about with epoxy and PVA are heat issues that raise the core of the material to temps that soften the glue line. You can take apart nearly ANY PVA joint with heat. A heat gun, and patience, and pretty much any glue joint will come apart. Technically they can also be reassembled if the heat is re-activated.

The issue that you will find with peels and cutting boards is that TBIII will clearly show failures in those applications that will leave you in a repair/replace situation in a job with a film finish. I could care less if my cutting boards, pizza peels, charcuteries, creep. They are free-beeies, give-a-ways. The issue is when that same problem happens on a more critical job.

Learn however you wish. TBIII is the only glue I dont have in the shop period.

[John TenEyck]

Brain, was that your piece in FWW this month? Beautiful piece.

I glued some 1/16" shop sawn rift sawn WO with Better Bond; 2 hours in the vacuum bag. I came back the next morning and found it like this.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jld_nRjK98I5NFH1fA43WePgtqCbNi-SXDp9lA6jmCFO24uqyeBW-Qkyu_fhhYKXQaL2rS_A2lCG78VcNPRiOtCIc7CE-gMdUk84KPuioSCC0Q5V4YUr2P6jtlAI57z34WnmU_vdXwjFbr8 PBvjXqDmK7dOfNKVcmFPcqkLKVEGImGrDCWP6-L7sBcIDhCPWr0CoR4Qk0FthaT9tYBlC6cYd1aPKKx2pWohFMm1 M8Z8645V3GAwYn8ZLVldpjPXbhQKnohULyDwxsmVKTmdFP3Q2l JNz0Bvxmo3jfAsqreBOH_lKaM05RvfFA2xcWvKl1-zPPOvfwaPc8dkYn7j1p2xWbNGZmdzHTgOT62fEj3mHxZohT-2jbYrkUK_qRXCOJhcO_-WC45h4ITTzFlVAJo8_-uIJqPrl3Hpmz9JIc0_eauUHeJsKCTKKIOu5lXJlafiwE_OG5C_ SozXSCG2KYGC2m_NTrKZE3i0LCgpEAt9J34RWRhr0BoVIU4f3h g0xLXird1bRcwY6DXqpFO4Sq-qatVAiEfDqh7pObR4EPQvzMdW-bE29zTIZvnh1GKoK9z12sZMMMnXnFn9q9tBPvMtbGk6de4Pl6K G5XFLD77qHIB9_RKUOyriEf5gfMv8oudJTi9JeyY-E4hUlUQhO4hIsiYK4lp4=w835-h626-no

Well that's not good. I made another with what I thought was exactly the right coverage rate, and left it under vacuum for at least 8 hours. For reference, 1 hour is the claimed minimum requirement.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MIuPH-xdIP8ovTA_FFTDZqzzSb6xiL28OIhuaAUzFZnW_n_l4ytqXpdl MaObbZL2rpcu4oLh_2tOhMVzBdrBxezZQyep-4ry5fPReTbTMvJlGEEOgujCBKd4HVTQcCandRZqtShGok46QSY HNqK7r7-2UTT-eoY-tAhXUhWCeynZ1oZEtiUatxFhGo_PLI61myEa9O6ToKKpizRCz7 qeqdPv8qGl6nJJtbteGZnZvJrUDgn7wicM4R4ZnIF_VCPEZMlC KD2x92O8DnJtd9qD41jngtwKcB_xoEd0QYV4ZtxzUU1DAbuR29 EO7S-wXQwE_wT5zww_ipxtO4VPNHAP05IgthwS8HN4AjAShPk3IQNRz SXCtxA0pdYNl5sGaZOssNIAuvmR2Z4r--HwNoU3Qa6QJWEDUHFol_idduFnRTeVUCWtu4NW5oj-i2a1829xFPuN5_vWWAz3NO6L9F003_UbgCSveQBNPqNxB7fLtD q2W5XiAFED-dBW2NIjQbpzilWcF3CKrqC8jDS539Jyp14SV1YQXNWV6ne2cO7 JV8I4_-mtzUaCbJTMdO9NKv2SK8yBbZPuvagjyhsgmPP4RmnJnRSxItWI Wu0Tq38bLKnHZYdFRf0uyMGPAvbXmECopH-1jjlq68Y568hoAtdgVQy08s3-TNw=w835-h626-no


OK, problem solved. I turned it into a nice little table to go with the adjacent cabinet.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vtVx7GtZfIxr72otOVnQvwMx8hdAqceRhlS_f3IWoHu67OI9Fq jJg7PxkF-V7uWbiRYnk5hu5WfdQT0fqDGvo0b_TPH0rR2ozAG_VTancGrIW FRaqA0org5nbbJLU-FgcO8sYXJg-JMF7g06rHS0UAEhD1dwkOg0v4Cb6IqLCM-suNOYUyHvN7tJYII3XFjSzGRXvDowV0aVbrV9lvQKqSgUkRFph 0jAU7_hmaySEaLTj6HGawYxGr-F7S7b9u8yX69bimDCHa_Lw0glNExUUPbrJCkd7qkVbDvXtUuEu 0BEARPxfdKKvZVxAlG9kWc5f7dg_CB6G-MX4yOkaC1vZSvm9WlDT4prDeTRhM_cOgprwljC3tfRT7SrSuot YQKOdx46aolUcz8Q58XH0cZmGZKVRAtSnNZbTqkEzC_ocJI6T8 MBr2f3HMfTccWeHERK34jaqeULpkkjruTnVdx2bftv2v-g-hYFgB9pwxOrSpXB_msyM7v80n46iXeP0VLtcknl1m0_MVwtxrP wJac6dOgO2YircoYgGu8BNDMoGXrF4EEfoscovacLyrNI6TIiU C1vHsSvdcUVX_tp5q3GVArz4zr8mVv08GT5mrCFn3ubuQVbchh 8Uw36byWlANF_QKh4eEA6n3NlP2EtclvsVmAoJBQ4PeZ3mctSj U4R9_Cl_v_0Phme6ZpDqFtBxnC5aOAas6oenOf7MEj7JF0pKU-lDw=w835-h626-no

In less than a year I got a call. At least two of the seams had begun to curl open; not much, but enough that it was obvious and definitely enough for this extremely critical client to complain. Sorry, I never took a picture of it. The house it's in has AC and the owner is anal beyond all reason so it certainly was not subjected to much abuse. I replaced the top with an identical one but glued with Plastic Resin Glue. 4 years later it's still perfect. I've never used PVA glue again with shop sawn veneer. The only reason I tried switching from PRG to PVA was to get faster throughput through the vacuum bag. When that didn't even turn out to be the case for me I had already gone back to PRG before I got the call of the problem. Like I said, I'm glad you haven't had any problems. I know the stuff works with commercial veneer. I just don't think it's a robust product once you move to shop sawn veneer, which is thicker and is sawn, not creped with a knife.

John

[Rich Engelhardt]

And, since any PVA glue is stronger than the wood it is gluing, how can you test the strength of a wood glue joint once the glue is fully cured? (That's a serious question and I'm sure there must be a way, but I'm having a hard time picturing what it is.)Easier and far simpler than you think.
Glue a couple of pieces of wood together - let the glue cure - clamp the pieces in a vice - whomp it into next week with a Louisville Slugger...or a hammer.
The glue should hold & the wood should break.

If it fails right smack dab on the glue line - you did something wrong or there's an issue with the glue itself.

If you want to pass up the test and just trust what others have experienced - - there's all kinds of pictures/tests/videos showing how it's done & the results.

[John TenEyck]

Same here. Pizza peels see nearly zero heat. A pizza is made on them, slid off in the oven, and then pulled out of the oven with a pi that quickly cools to nothing. The heat issues you are reading about with epoxy and PVA are heat issues that raise the core of the material to temps that soften the glue line. You can take apart nearly ANY PVA joint with heat. A heat gun, and patience, and pretty much any glue joint will come apart. Technically they can also be reassembled if the heat is re-activated.

The issue that you will find with peels and cutting boards is that TBIII will clearly show failures in those applications that will leave you in a repair/replace situation in a job with a film finish. I could care less if my cutting boards, pizza peels, charcuteries, creep. They are free-beeies, give-a-ways. The issue is when that same problem happens on a more critical job.

Learn however you wish. TBIII is the only glue I dont have in the shop period.

You haven't seen me praise TB III in this thread.

[John TenEyck]

Easier and far simpler than you think.
Glue a couple of pieces of wood together - let the glue cure - clamp the pieces in a vice - whomp it into next week with a Louisville Slugger...or a hammer.
The glue should hold & the wood should break.

If it fails right smack dab on the glue line - you did something wrong or there's an issue with the glue itself.

If you want to pass up the test and just trust what others have experienced - - there's all kinds of pictures/tests/videos showing how it's done & the results.

Look up lap shear test.

John

[Mark Bolton]

As (you and other) pizza makers know, the peel doesn't stay in the oven long enough to get beyond barely warm. The heat capacity (and typical thickness) of the wood accounts for this. The moisture content of the pizza is the bigger issue.

Just say, If your peel gets hot, you're doing it wrong. Etc. :^)

10-4.. couldnt agree more. Beyond that most commercial outfits use the old super thin aluminum pizza peels because they are light and dirt cheap. We cook pizza at least once a week, with two pizza peels (oven heated for 4 hours to 550). Make pizza one on peel one, toss it in oven. Make pizza two on peel two, when #1 comes out toss #2 in pull #1 out with its peel.

Neither peel sees the most remote amount of heat. BUT.... and this is a big BUT.. they both have creep (that means nothing on a pizza peel) and one of them has a slight glue line failure at the tip. Now I have several cutting boards that are washed and immersed in hot soapy water every day of the week, multiple times, with TBII, and they are dead tight.

This is my point about torture tests. You dont have to make a joint and leave it outside. Make an item, and use the heck out of it in your house. Put it in the dishwasher. Take it out of the sink from warm soapy water and put it outside in sub zero weather. Beat the heck out of it. You customers will do things to your products you could never imagine or ever protect yourself against.


403361

[John TenEyck]

For what it's worth, Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue and Unibond 800 are pretty much the same thing (urea formaldehyde), just packaged differently. The problems you had with Weldwood leave me scratching my head, just as I'm sure my failures with Better Bond baffle you. I've never had a failure with Weldwood PRG, and some of those projects live on exterior doors, one of them in direct western sun, rain, etc. Talk about a brutal test. Two years and so far, so good.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, was that your piece in FWW this month? Beautiful piece.

I glued some 1/16" shop sawn rift sawn WO with Better Bond; 2 hours in the vacuum bag. I came back the next morning and found it like this.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jld_nRjK98I5NFH1fA43WePgtqCbNi-SXDp9lA6jmCFO24uqyeBW-Qkyu_fhhYKXQaL2rS_A2lCG78VcNPRiOtCIc7CE-gMdUk84KPuioSCC0Q5V4YUr2P6jtlAI57z34WnmU_vdXwjFbr8 PBvjXqDmK7dOfNKVcmFPcqkLKVEGImGrDCWP6-L7sBcIDhCPWr0CoR4Qk0FthaT9tYBlC6cYd1aPKKx2pWohFMm1 M8Z8645V3GAwYn8ZLVldpjPXbhQKnohULyDwxsmVKTmdFP3Q2l JNz0Bvxmo3jfAsqreBOH_lKaM05RvfFA2xcWvKl1-zPPOvfwaPc8dkYn7j1p2xWbNGZmdzHTgOT62fEj3mHxZohT-2jbYrkUK_qRXCOJhcO_-WC45h4ITTzFlVAJo8_-uIJqPrl3Hpmz9JIc0_eauUHeJsKCTKKIOu5lXJlafiwE_OG5C_ SozXSCG2KYGC2m_NTrKZE3i0LCgpEAt9J34RWRhr0BoVIU4f3h g0xLXird1bRcwY6DXqpFO4Sq-qatVAiEfDqh7pObR4EPQvzMdW-bE29zTIZvnh1GKoK9z12sZMMMnXnFn9q9tBPvMtbGk6de4Pl6K G5XFLD77qHIB9_RKUOyriEf5gfMv8oudJTi9JeyY-E4hUlUQhO4hIsiYK4lp4=w835-h626-no

Well that's not good. I made another with what I thought was exactly the right coverage rate, and left it under vacuum for at least 8 hours. For reference, 1 hour is the claimed minimum requirement.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MIuPH-xdIP8ovTA_FFTDZqzzSb6xiL28OIhuaAUzFZnW_n_l4ytqXpdl MaObbZL2rpcu4oLh_2tOhMVzBdrBxezZQyep-4ry5fPReTbTMvJlGEEOgujCBKd4HVTQcCandRZqtShGok46QSY HNqK7r7-2UTT-eoY-tAhXUhWCeynZ1oZEtiUatxFhGo_PLI61myEa9O6ToKKpizRCz7 qeqdPv8qGl6nJJtbteGZnZvJrUDgn7wicM4R4ZnIF_VCPEZMlC KD2x92O8DnJtd9qD41jngtwKcB_xoEd0QYV4ZtxzUU1DAbuR29 EO7S-wXQwE_wT5zww_ipxtO4VPNHAP05IgthwS8HN4AjAShPk3IQNRz SXCtxA0pdYNl5sGaZOssNIAuvmR2Z4r--HwNoU3Qa6QJWEDUHFol_idduFnRTeVUCWtu4NW5oj-i2a1829xFPuN5_vWWAz3NO6L9F003_UbgCSveQBNPqNxB7fLtD q2W5XiAFED-dBW2NIjQbpzilWcF3CKrqC8jDS539Jyp14SV1YQXNWV6ne2cO7 JV8I4_-mtzUaCbJTMdO9NKv2SK8yBbZPuvagjyhsgmPP4RmnJnRSxItWI Wu0Tq38bLKnHZYdFRf0uyMGPAvbXmECopH-1jjlq68Y568hoAtdgVQy08s3-TNw=w835-h626-no


OK, problem solved. I turned it into a nice little table to go with the adjacent cabinet.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vtVx7GtZfIxr72otOVnQvwMx8hdAqceRhlS_f3IWoHu67OI9Fq jJg7PxkF-V7uWbiRYnk5hu5WfdQT0fqDGvo0b_TPH0rR2ozAG_VTancGrIW FRaqA0org5nbbJLU-FgcO8sYXJg-JMF7g06rHS0UAEhD1dwkOg0v4Cb6IqLCM-suNOYUyHvN7tJYII3XFjSzGRXvDowV0aVbrV9lvQKqSgUkRFph 0jAU7_hmaySEaLTj6HGawYxGr-F7S7b9u8yX69bimDCHa_Lw0glNExUUPbrJCkd7qkVbDvXtUuEu 0BEARPxfdKKvZVxAlG9kWc5f7dg_CB6G-MX4yOkaC1vZSvm9WlDT4prDeTRhM_cOgprwljC3tfRT7SrSuot YQKOdx46aolUcz8Q58XH0cZmGZKVRAtSnNZbTqkEzC_ocJI6T8 MBr2f3HMfTccWeHERK34jaqeULpkkjruTnVdx2bftv2v-g-hYFgB9pwxOrSpXB_msyM7v80n46iXeP0VLtcknl1m0_MVwtxrP wJac6dOgO2YircoYgGu8BNDMoGXrF4EEfoscovacLyrNI6TIiU C1vHsSvdcUVX_tp5q3GVArz4zr8mVv08GT5mrCFn3ubuQVbchh 8Uw36byWlANF_QKh4eEA6n3NlP2EtclvsVmAoJBQ4PeZ3mctSj U4R9_Cl_v_0Phme6ZpDqFtBxnC5aOAas6oenOf7MEj7JF0pKU-lDw=w835-h626-no

In less than a year I got a call. At least two of the seams had begun to curl open; not much, but enough that it was obvious and definitely enough for this extremely critical client to complain. Sorry, I never took a picture of it. The house it's in has AC and the owner is anal beyond all reason so it certainly was not subjected to much abuse. I replaced the top with an identical one but glued with Plastic Resin Glue. 4 years later it's still perfect. I've never used PVA glue again with shop sawn veneer. The only reason I tried switching from PRG to PVA was to get faster throughput through the vacuum bag. When that didn't even turn out to be the case for me I had already gone back to PRG before I got the call of the problem. Like I said, I'm glad you haven't had any problems. I know the stuff works with commercial veneer. I just don't think it's a robust product once you move to shop sawn veneer, which is thicker and is sawn, not creped with a knife.

John


For what it's worth, Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue and Unibond 800 are pretty much the same thing (urea formaldehyde), just packaged differently. The problems you had with Weldwood leave me scratching my head, just as I'm sure my failures with Better Bond baffle you. I've never had a failure with Weldwood PRG, and some of those projects live on exterior doors, one of them in direct western sun, rain, etc. Talk about a brutal test. Two years and so far, so good.

John

That was me, thank you, kindly!

Wow, that's curious. I've not had that happen. I'm in and out of the bag in 45 min to and hour max. My logic is that the bag is a clamp but it doesn't allow airflow so once the glue is setup it's back out of the bag to cure (needs airflow). Same thing clamping joinery.

I don't know the PSI rating of BB, but TB cold press is 2500psi, where TBII is 3750psi.

A lot of stuff I've made is near to me, so I can stop in and check it out. Not everything, but many things.

I've only recently started thinning the panels after producing them. I usually do it just to remove thickness inconsistencies from panel to panel but it has the added benefit of thinning the veneer. I have been knocking them down to about .060".

[Patrick Kane]

I have slight separation on the tip of my one pizza peel(TBIII). Like Mark, i have two walnut peels, but i cook mine on my former BGE and now on a primo XL at 700°+. Maybe the high heat caused the mini failure in my one peel? Im talking a gap of 1/16" wide and maybe 1/8" long. I should also note i hand planed a primary bevel with slight back bevel to a razor at the edge.

I once had a customer put an end grain board in the dishwasher. Also TB III. It didnt explode, but it had multiple catastrophic failures in half a dozen places. 1/2"+ gaps in places. I dont know if its fair to expect a wood product to withstand extreme moisture, humidity, and heat of a dishwasher. Oddly enough i broke out the big boy jorgie 7200 clamps and used more TB III and compressed that damaged board until it closed up. My brother ended up giving it to one of his college girlfriends years ago. Wonder how that board is doing today...

[John TenEyck]

The only thing longer vacuum bag time is going to do for PVA glues is to let the water migrate further into the wood, which should help the glue stiffen more. I agree that you still need to get that water back out of the wood and the only way to do that is to take it out of the bag. This is the huge advantage of using UF glues or epoxies. UF glues consume the water during the cure reaction and epoxies have none to start with. The downside is you have to leave them in the bag longer, a lot longer in some cases. I still haven't figured out how long I actually have to leave them in the bag until the cure is sufficient to hold the veneer; I've been leaving them in until they reach essentially full cure which is 13 hours for PRG at 70F. I would dearly love to have a faster curing system.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

John, you can speed up the cure time with an electric blanket.

To the original question, I don't like TB3. It doesn't cure hard, thus the creep problems, and it doesn't like heat.

I keep Titebond 2, Titebond Extend and epoxy on the shelf. T2 for general use with reasonable water resistance (I have two storm doors 20 years old glued up with it in fine shape), Extend for complicated assemblies and pressing stable sliced veneer (it has the least creep of the Titebond family) and epoxy for exterior work, sawn veneer and assemblies requiring extended time and lubricity. UF glue has its place but it's not available locally and not very shelf stable so I buy it by the job, plus it's fairly toxic (I am immune to epoxy sensitivity so far).

[Jim Allen]

Needless to say I am in the minority. I'm a retired engineer who has been doing woodworking for 40 years, never have used Titebond, for the last 10 years or so I've used Gorilla Glue when I wasn't using epoxy or CA, and have never had a problem with it.

Is there something I don't know?

[Simon MacGowen]

Needless to say I am in the minority. I'm a retired engineer who has been doing woodworking for 40 years, never have used Titebond, for the last 10 years or so I've used Gorilla Glue when I wasn't using epoxy or CA, and have never had a problem with it.

Is there something I don't know?

You are definitely in the minority, Jim. I do not know anyone whose go-to glue is GG. But furniture maker Craig Thibodeau is i your company: https://www.finewoodworking.com/2016/11/02/polyurethane-is-my-go-to-glue

Simon

[Jim Allen]

The one I use mostly is their PVA glue not the polyurethane, which is what Craig is talking about.

[Simon MacGowen]

I have used the GG PVA (white) too, and could not tell any difference from other PVA glue. Simon

[John TenEyck]

I ,again, disagree that all PVA creeps. White glue creeps. Lack of creep with yellow was recognized early on as an advantage over white. Many times I was summoned to retrieve a piece from the finishing room to re sand a joint that had
moved and was not flush. Never happened again after we switched to yellow. I concede that that an overly loose fitting mortise and tenon joint might creep a little even with yellow glue.

This is from the USDA's Forest Products Laboratory Wood Handbook, Chapter 10 page 24:

"Whether a synthetic adhesive is thermoplastic or thermosetting has a major influence on its performance in service. Thermoplastics are long-chain polymers that soften and flow on heating and then harden again upon cooling. They generally have less resistance to heat, moisture, and longterm static loading than do thermosetting polymers. Common thermoplastic adhesives for wood include poly(vinyl acetate) emulsions, elastomerics, contacts, and hot-melts. Thermosetting polymers make excellent structural adhesives because they undergo irreversible chemical change when cured, and on reheating, they do not soften and flow again. They form cross-linked polymers that can have high strength, have resistance to moisture and other chemicals, and are rigid enough to support high, long-term static loads without deforming. Phenol-formaldehyde, resorcinol-formaldehyde, melamine-formaldehyde, urea-formaldehyde, isocyanate, and epoxy adhesives are examples of thermosetting polymers."

Your results with yellow glue may have been better than with white glue, and even satisfactory for your purposes, but the fact remains that all PVA glues creep and that can be a problem in some applications.

John

[John TenEyck]

John, you can speed up the cure time with an electric blanket.

To the original question, I don't like TB3. It doesn't cure hard, thus the creep problems, and it doesn't like heat.

I keep Titebond 2, Titebond Extend and epoxy on the shelf. T2 for general use with reasonable water resistance (I have two storm doors 20 years old glued up with it in fine shape), Extend for complicated assemblies and pressing stable sliced veneer (it has the least creep of the Titebond family) and epoxy for exterior work, sawn veneer and assemblies requiring extended time and lubricity. UF glue has its place but it's not available locally and not very shelf stable so I buy it by the job, plus it's fairly toxic (I am immune to epoxy sensitivity so far).

Kevin, yes an electric blanket helps, but it doesn't improve the cure time very much if you are veneering both sides of a panel at once, which is my normal practice. The temperature gradient from top to bottom is high and you can't remove the piece until the bottom is cured. I also suspect that non uniform cure rates can lead to permanent panel deformation, but I'm not positive. I've been scheming on how to build heated platens at a reasonable cost - i.e. for cheap to overcome this problem.

UF glue (Weldwood PRG) is only a mouse click away on Amazon and has a shelf life of at least a year in a sealed bucket. Toxicity is related mostly to when it's being mixed so I wear an organics respirator or do it outside. After that, it's fine as long as you wear gloves.

John

[Mel Fulks]

John,thanks. I don't doubt the experiences of others....I just wonder how they botched them !! Gonna, at least, remember to more carefully consider the possibility of trouble.

[Bohdan Drozdowskyj]

I had to put this out there....
I have worked for years in a textile factory that had a dye room.
They had 55gal. drums of starch. It smelled and looked like Elmers
glue. So one day I took some and glued two 2x4's together. I could
not get them apart the next day. do you think it's all the same thing?

I used to buy PVA glue direct from a manufacturer in 44 gal drums. One day their rep was visiting and I mentioned that I had been offered a cheaper glue.

He said "How much do you want to pay?" I said "What do you mean?" he said "We can make the glue any price you want to pay. We just water it down and then add starch to thicken it up. Most people can't tell."

"One major furniture manufacturer used a cheap glue and had to recall all of their production because their furniture started to fall apart in the showroom."

[Ron Citerone]

I used to buy PVA glue direct from a manufacturer in 44 gal drums. One day their rep was visiting and I mentioned that I had been offered a cheaper glue.

He said "How much do you want to pay?" I said "What do you mean?" he said "We can make the glue any price you want to pay. We just water it down and then add starch to thicken it up. Most people can't tell."

"One major furniture manufacturer used a cheap glue and had to recall all of their production because their furniture started to fall apart in the showroom."


That is way too watered down, it should at least hold until it is in the customer's home! :D:cool:

[Rob Luter]

I'll echo what others have. A gallon jug of glue is a bunch of glue. When I built my bench I bought a gallon. 18 months later I threw 2/3 of it away. The per ounce discount on larger containers doesn't make up for that. I buy smaller containers now. A quart is the largest I'd buy.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

From all I had read Titebond 3 is slightly better than 2... better water resistance and time available for glue up... but IMHO the differences are marginal... and both are marginally better than the old and tested yellow PVA glue.

In my country Titebond is around 10 times more expensive than the old yellow PVA glue. I never ever considered it for the price difference.

[Randy Heinemann]

I guess everyone just uses what they feel comfortable with and, with today's glues, there probably is no right answer. I've used Titebond for many years because I started using it when I began woodworking and just stuck with it. I've used polyurethane glue when it first came out and don't like it because it tends to stain the wood around the joint when there is squeeze our (which there almost always is) and it's messy to clean up.

As of few years ago I use Titebond II Extend because it truly does take a little longer to set and really does allow a little more time to get the joints together. Sometimes, just a little more time is all that is needed when things aren't going well.

Again, I think it just comes down to using what you have history with and what you feel works. If you've had no failures with the glue you use and have no special needs, there are probably several glues on the market that will work. Just use what works and hasn't failed you.

[Jim Becker]

From all I had read Titebond 3 is slightly better than 2... better water resistance and time available for glue up... but IMHO the differences are marginal... and both are marginally better than the old and tested yellow PVA glue.

In my country Titebond is around 10 times more expensive than the old yellow PVA glue. I never ever considered it for the price difference.
Titebond I, II and III are all PVA glues. They just have some different properties relative to water resistance and open time, etc. There are many brands of PVA and each often has different formulas just like the Titebond folks. Gorilla brand even has PVA, although most of us think of their Polyurethane glue first when we hear the name.

[Charles Wiggins]

I only buy III.

1) Stronger bond
2) Longer open time
3) Can be applied in colder conditions
4) Waterproof

http://www.titebond.com/community/the-big-three

I just bought a bottle at the big blue home center and it was the same price at original or II.

[Jim Allen]

Gorilla brand even has PVA, although most of us think of their Polyurethane glue first when we hear the name.

I built a garden shed ~15 years ago, and used the Gorilla Poly glue with great success. Then I saw their PVA glue and thought why not, the poly worked so well, I'll give it a try. Haven't tried anything else since.

[John Kee]

From all I had read Titebond 3 is slightly better than 2... better water resistance and time available for glue up... but IMHO the differences are marginal... and both are marginally better than the old and tested yellow PVA glue.

In my country Titebond is around 10 times more expensive than the old yellow PVA glue. I never ever considered it for the price difference.

Osvaldo, Titebond/Franklin is marketing shinola to those that are an easy mark. I've tried and tested many many glues and have found no significant differences in PVA type glues like others have also posted here. I wouldn't pay a premium price for something that is run of the mill. The last glue I would use is a Titebond because of their marketing BS and its the only glue I've had multiple problems with. I'm a small one operation and go through between 3 and 5 gallons of PVA a year along with many custom adhesives designed for purpose. I have to stake my reputation on the quality of what I produce and Titebond just doesn't fit in the equation.

[Randy Heinemann]

Osvaldo, Titebond/Franklin is marketing shinola to those that are an easy mark. I've tried and tested many many glues and have found no significant differences in PVA type glues like others have also posted here. I wouldn't pay a premium price for something that is run of the mill. The last glue I would use is a Titebond because of their marketing BS and its the only glue I've had multiple problems with. I'm a small one operation and go through between 3 and 5 gallons of PVA a year along with many custom adhesives designed for purpose. I have to stake my reputation on the quality of what I produce and Titebond just doesn't fit in the equation.

John, I've never had any problems with Titebond PVA glues, but am always willing to try another, maybe less expensive brand (which I assume the brand you use is since you must be a production woodworker) . Which brand and type of glue do you use?

[John Kee]

Randy I consider expense relative to performance and didn't post what I use because of hobby use availability, which is what this forum is all about. I use Kleiberit PVA and specialty glues which are available through Richelieu Hardware. I first got started with their glue about 10 years ago when I needed a glue that would bond Melamine to itself. Tried the Titebond Melamine glue and the joint broke with very little effort, so went searching and found Kleiberit Melamine and Lacquer glue. Tested a few pieces and the glue actually bonded to the melamine and when I tried to break the joint it ripped the surface right off down to the particle core. That made me try their other offerings. Currently I use their #303 or 305 for most glue ups. I'm going to try some of their PUR shortly.

[Mark Bolton]

I only buy III.

1) Stronger bond
2) Longer open time
3) Can be applied in colder conditions
4) Waterproof

http://www.titebond.com/community/the-big-three

I just bought a bottle at the big blue home center and it was the same price at original or II.

And when you hit a project where using that as your sole glue gives you trouble I hope its one for yourself or one that doesnt have a several thousand dollar price tag attached. There are all sorts of shops out there that tout using TBIII exclusively but if you read any commercial trade publications or follow any of that type of work you will find that numerous shops that run hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of work through their shops, have rid their shops of TBIII for failure specific reasons. Its not to say it wont satisfy some peoples needs, happily yours is one, but if your doing any work for sale or for others.. dont let your guard down.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Titebond I, II and III are all PVA glues. They just have some different properties relative to water resistance and open time, etc. There are many brands of PVA and each often has different formulas just like the Titebond folks. Gorilla brand even has PVA, although most of us think of their Polyurethane glue first when we hear the name.

Hi Jim,

...yes, I know they are PVA glues with a few additives - I was comparing them against "traditional yellow PVA glue" under a number of trade marks.

Thanks for feedback.

[marlin adams]

It all depends on what I am glueing up and at my local Home Depot the 16oz bottles of titebond II and III are only 2 dollars difference.

[Edwin Santos]

I don't think I've seen mention in this thread of Lee Valley's GF Cabinetmaker's Glue.
I've never tried it but wondered if anyone else here had any experience with it.

[Rob Luter]

For what it's worth, back in the day (late 1970's) we used white Elmer's Glue in my vocational Woodworking class in high school. All the stuff I made is still in use, except for the kitchen table I made for Mom and I had to cut that apart to recycle the lumber. How strong a glue do you need? 4X stronger than necessary or 10X stronger?

[Andrew Hughes]

I hear ya Rob, Elmer’s glue all white glue is very good stuff. it’s has plenty of open time and is translucent when it’s dry.
I use it a lot.
My own personal test shows it bonds perfectly.
The brown title bond 3 has a lot of solids and if you don’t clamp the c..p out of it glue lines are inevitable on table tops.

[John Kee]

I don't think I've seen mention in this thread of Lee Valley's GF Cabinetmaker's Glue.
I've never tried it but wondered if anyone else here had any experience with it.

I used it for a couple of years and never had a problem, when it went to $65.00 CDN for a gal about 7 years ago I gave my head a shake. All in all its just an expensive PVA. While some believe the brown glueline is a bonus, I'm not one of them.

[Chris Parks]

I used it for a couple of years and never had a problem, when it went to $65.00 CDN for a gal about 7 years ago I gave my head a shake. All in all its just an expensive PVA. While some believe the brown glueline is a bonus, I'm not one of them.

You must do an enormous amount of woodwork to buy a gallon of the stuff at a time.

[Randy Heinemann]

I'm curious what kind of failures people have had with Titebond glue. Regardless of whether it was the original, Titebond II, Titebond II Extend, or Titebond III, it has never failed, even when using it with miter joints. That is why I'm curious about the reported failures.

[Jim Becker]

I don't think I've seen mention in this thread of Lee Valley's GF Cabinetmaker's Glue.
I've never tried it but wondered if anyone else here had any experience with it.
I recently used a bottle and it was just fine. I only ordered it because I had just opened my last container of glue, it was convenient at the time and I needed a few more shekels on the order to get the free shipping. I'd buy it again if circumstances were similar.

[Mike Henderson]

Brain, was that your piece in FWW this month? Beautiful piece.

I glued some 1/16" shop sawn rift sawn WO with Better Bond; 2 hours in the vacuum bag. I came back the next morning and found it like this.



Well that's not good. I made another with what I thought was exactly the right coverage rate, and left it under vacuum for at least 8 hours. For reference, 1 hour is the claimed minimum requirement.




OK, problem solved. I turned it into a nice little table to go with the adjacent cabinet.



In less than a year I got a call. At least two of the seams had begun to curl open; not much, but enough that it was obvious and definitely enough for this extremely critical client to complain. Sorry, I never took a picture of it. The house it's in has AC and the owner is anal beyond all reason so it certainly was not subjected to much abuse. I replaced the top with an identical one but glued with Plastic Resin Glue. 4 years later it's still perfect. I've never used PVA glue again with shop sawn veneer. The only reason I tried switching from PRG to PVA was to get faster throughput through the vacuum bag. When that didn't even turn out to be the case for me I had already gone back to PRG before I got the call of the problem. Like I said, I'm glad you haven't had any problems. I know the stuff works with commercial veneer. I just don't think it's a robust product once you move to shop sawn veneer, which is thicker and is sawn, not creped with a knife.

John

Yep, I've not had good luck with cold press glue and veneer (let me go further - I've had miserable experience with cold press glue and veneer). For most applications, I'll use Elmer's white glue. If I need a glue without water (because of veneer expansion) I'll use slow West Systems epoxy.

I've occasionally used UF glues but I have to mix a lot more than I need because you sure don't want to run out of glue when you're doing a project. And there's the formaldehyde that the glue gives off.

Mike

[John Kee]

I'm curious what kind of failures people have had with Titebond glue. Regardless of whether it was the original, Titebond II, Titebond II Extend, or Titebond III, it has never failed, even when using it with miter joints. That is why I'm curious about the reported failures.

Multiple failures with Titebond Extend using it on cabinet doors with mitered corners. Thought I would try it out to get a little more working time. Big fail, the supposed extended glue time was a joke. Had 2 joints fail before the cabinets were delivered and several more a couple of months after install. Its some of the most expensive glue I've ever used, overall cost me a couple of hundred dollars for a liter. No failures with TB3 because I won't use it, if moisture is going to an issue its epoxy or PL.

[Andrew Joiner]

I'm curious what kind of failures people have had with Titebond glue. Regardless of whether it was the original, Titebond II, Titebond II Extend, or Titebond III, it has never failed, even when using it with miter joints. That is why I'm curious about the reported failures.
The first time I tested Titebond III was in 2009. It was a new bottle and to me it seemed thin and runny. Glued up 2 scraps in the same way I've always tested adhesives. It broke easily at the glue line with little effort. Not even a bit of the wood gave way only the glue line. I tried again on different scraps, same result. I called Titebond and they said it was a good dated bottle and the thinner viscosity was normal for Titebond III. They told me to return it. I got a new bottle it tested as strong as any yellow PVA glue I'd tested, stronger than the wood. But why did a good dated new bottle of glue fail a test?
Yearly I'll test my glues before use. Been doing that since I had a job fail mysteriously as a pro 40 years ago. I've been wary of Titebond III since my 2009 test. It's tested OK most years but last month I tested fairly new Titebond III and 5 year old Titebond Extend in the same conditions. The III was OK but it took much less force to break it than the Extend. Only a few slivers of wood came off at the glue line with III. The Extend needed more force and didn't fail at the glue line at all.

[Joe Calhoon]

I’ve been reading this thread and the one on Woodweb a while back with interest. I have been using TB 3 for many years and TB 2 before that with no issues. We use TB 3 for everything now because we use a pressurized glue system and too much trouble to change it out. We have always bought it by the 5 gallons. One thing I have noticed is that it is very inconsistent for viscosity. Thick - thin and lumpy sometimes. We always stir or shake up the fives before filling the glue pot.
I do know if it is ever frozen it is no good and low temps in the shop under 50 f or so will cause chalking and weak joints. We buy the fives from one of our hardwood suppliers and they stock up on it during the summer and leave it in the heated cab of the truck for delivery. We had no issues with TB2 but prefer 3 because we do a lot of face laminating and the TB3 does not move around so much under initial clamp pressure.
It will fail if submerged under water for a long time. Epoxy is the answer if your wood is subject to this. I used TB 3 for the cores of some skis we made a few years back and they are still going strong. I do know some shops have had issues with glue line failure at high temps.

I have tried some of the PVAs from Europe and and they seem better quality but the issues of trying to get them here without freezing seems complicated.

[Kevin Jenness]

Joe, I also followed the Woodweb thread with interest. Why do you think your experience with T3 is so different than the numerous anecdotes of failure using it on that thread?

[Joe Calhoon]

No Idea Kevin. Unless it is stirring and shaking the fives before using. Maybe people are getting material that has been frozen. I have a friend that has a larger custom window and door shop east coast and he uses it like we do with no issues.
The inconsistently bothers me and I think there are better PVAs out there but Tightbond is easy for us to acquire.

what has been your experience?

[Kevin Jenness]

I really have not used it more than once or twice. The gummy character of the squeezeout indicates its lack of creep resistance, and the fact that it has seriously degraded properties at elevated temps (http://titebond.com/product/glues/e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af) makes me nervous.

For those who are interested the thread in question is on Woodweb's Architectural Woodworking forum entitled "Exterior glue failure- part one" (link not allowed but I think it's okay to give a reference).

Titebond 2 and Titebond Extend are my go-to ready-mixed glues, but based on Franklin's figures T2 Extend is better for moderate water resistance combined with high temperature bond strength (http://titebond.com/product/glues/21051713-5cce-4925-a653-3bff0a0f71ab). T2 Extend is annoying to use though as it separates out on the shelf and requires remixing.

I generally use epoxy for exterior projects.

[Jerry Olexa]

i still prefer Original Titebond but use 2 and 3 for special exterior circumstances when needed... I do not like the residue on TB 3 when it dries: hard brown...When building furniture , not a pretty sight...The orig blends in easier (translucent)...Just my own experience....

[lowell holmes]

At last count, I have four bottles of Titebond. Old dogs tend to be forgetful.

[Kevin Jenness]

" All in all its just an expensive PVA"

That is true, but all PVA glues are not equal. It is well worth reviewing and comparing the physical characteristics and bond strength data offered by the manufacturer (http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I had to use some that had froze Saturday. 50 miles to a fresh bottle and a light duty joint, figured it was worth a shot. Looks fine, everything set ok. Not the first time it's happened so curious what you guys see as frozen glue failures?

[Al Launier]

I try to use the freshest TB III on hand for important projects and use the older TB III (over a year old) for less important ones, especially those projects that are constructed with dowels or screws. So far this has worked out well; if it pours it's good.

[Charlie Jones]

I try to use the freshest TB III on hand for important projects and use the older TB III (over a year old) for less important ones, especially those projects that are constructed with dowels or screws. So far this has worked out well; if it pours it's good.


I have been using TB 3 for a couple of years. I have not had any failures. After reading this thread I decided to test it by breaking some 3/4 cherry with hammer strikes along the glue lines. The clamps were on overnight as I normally do. I tested several pieces. They all broke at near but not at the glue joint. My conclusion is TB 3 is stronger than the wood when used properly. That’s good enough for me.

[Ken Grant]

I have been using TB 3 for a couple of years. I have not had any failures. After reading this thread I decided to test it by breaking some 3/4 cherry with hammer strikes along the glue lines. The clamps were on overnight as I normally do. I tested several pieces. They all broke at near but not at the glue joint. My conclusion is TB 3 is stronger than the wood when used properly. That’s good enough for me.

The issue that concerns me with TB 3 is not initial strength. I have failure tested TB 1 TB 2 and TB3 with edge grain to edge grain joints, and none of them come apart on the glue line. I have also failure tested many cope and pattern type joints (cabinet doors) with similar results.

My concerns are:

glue failure at higher temperatures (exterior door with darker color and sun exposure)
glue line telegraphing on paint grade work
creep on a joint under tension (bent lamination)

The glue failure at higher temps has been documented on woodweb, but I have not personally experienced this failure.

I have had an occasional glue line be slightly raised with TB2 (plywood bulkhead to faceframe joint). I could sand it down flush and the next day it would pop back up again slightly. Did I have the joint perfectly prepared? Who knows, but I do this for a living and it was clamped well. Also, the problem went away when I went back to TB 1.

I also put an unfinished cabinet door glued up with TB 1 outside my shop to see what would happen. The joints were cope and pattern. No dowels, and no nails through the joint from the back of the door.

It was in the summer-June or July(90°+). There was dew every night and direct sun for at least 10 hours every day. It got rained on after about a week. The end grain was all swelled up but the joint was still holding. I was shocked to be honest. After about another week, we got another big rainstorm. The next day the joints on the door had finally popped open.

These are just some of my own experiences. Your mileage may vary.

[Glen Crews]

I use Titebond II for most projects. I do use Titebond III for exterior projects or if I want some extra open time.

[bill epstein]

One thing about Titebond III I haven't seen mentioned is that it seems to pass right over the rubbery easy-to-peel stage and goes directly from wet to edge destroying hard. And it's not just me. An acquaintance also complained of the same thing.

I also avoid yellow, Titebond II or Elmer's for the shorter open time and no need of water resistance. Overall, it's white Elmer's for carcase construction and the king of veneer glues, Veneer Systems PPR. The latter is a PITA to use cold but I can't afford a hot press and have accumulated a truckload of cauls and clamps over the years.

[Terry Wawro]

Funny, I've used all three Titebonds and polyurethane glue. The only glue failure I can remember was from using Gorilla Glue. 1x6 trim board just fell off after a few months. Never tried it again.