getting more shaper speeds

[Warren Lake]

The SCM T130 has 3,000 4,500 6,000 7,000 and 10,000. The adjustable groover in it can run at 9,000 RPM. I ran it at 7,000 to cut some tennons. 10,000 being too high it looks like putting the belt on to a different pulley would give more speeds. The belt would run at an angle and rub on the pulley outside edges but not sure thats a big deal. A shorter belt would be used. Not worth it to readjust the tension device but Just have a belt that is a few inches shorter. RPM could be calculated from pulley size. IF it goes up from 7 to 10,000 RPM on the top pulley, next pulley down being 7,000 then if it was on the top drive pulley and one one down on driven would be 8,500 RPM I think.

Anyone run a belt to a position to either side of where it should be to get more speeds. Ive had machines before where pulley alignment was well out and they worked fine. Cog belt on the machine now and so far my favorite type for the least resistance and likely be more forgiving.

[Martin Wasner]

Won't work. It'll pop off or smoke the belt.

[Joe Calhoon]

Warren,
Typically it’s best to run around 1000 rpm or so under the maximum allowable rpm stamped on those euro cutters. A lot of my adj groovers are 9000 max and they run fine even at 6000.

[brent stanley]

Hi Warren, if it's a 3ph machine you could consider adding a drive to give you more options. I was panel raising with the small machine last night and I ended up with something like 6850rpm sounding and cutting perfect so it's nice to be able to fine tune.

B

[Bill Orbine]

Speed stated on cutters are maximum speeds. Not necessarily optimal. Many cutters I run are below max speed, but never over.

[Martin Wasner]

What's the diameter and the number of wings? Somewhere on here I had a formula for figuring chip load. I'll see if I can find it and email it to you

[Mike Cutler]

Yes I have, but on much simpler machine than yours.
I have small Delta 43-375. It is two speeds, 7000 and 10,000 RPM. I have the ability to adjust the quill cartridge and sheaves, up ad down to some degree, to align it so that it a nominal ~8000 and~9000rpm can be achieved. (I have an Amana Lock Miter cutter that at 4 1/2" in diameter is supposed to be run at less than 9000 rpm max, and 7000 seemed to slow, so I set the machine for 8000 rpm when this cutter is on it.)
I can line the belt up in the sheaves on my machine so that it isn't at an angle. I don't think I would run it with the belt intentionally misaligned.

[Warren Lake]

Brent think the VFD might be a bit of coin for 6.5 HP. Might be nice, maybe not be needed but for serrated I could dial in 3,500 the machine doesnt have.

Martin if it would pop off or smoke if the motor easily went up or down that would take care of that. Its not 100 percent aligned right now as it came original. Myk thought was ive seen stuff off before and it worked fine, guess a question of how much, there are some machines I think where belts do a 90 degree turn from pulley to pulley., maybe im imganing that but thought id seen it.

Joe why do you run 1,000 under rated? It ran fine at 7,000 and cut really well. Tennons cut were accurate to about .001. This little head can do 1 1/2" plus with the spacers that is in it now. There were a few things I didn't get when I put the cutters in and will go to the company that sells them this week. Found I had to use care to get the knives to center in each cutter. cleaned all up with lacquer thinner and spray gun cleaning brushes.

Do you locate parts the same each time and in the same relation on the spindle. I marked the cutters how they were sitting but forgot to mark it on the shaft but maybe that is not needed.



Martin ill post the head tonight, just a small groover and i flipped and put a spacer in. All a bit more complicated its 40 MM and the shaper is 1 1/4" but think it worked out farily well have lots of bushings and adapters whatever the correct terms are.

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE=Warren Lake;2897234

Joe why do you run 1,000 under rated? It ran fine at 7,000 and cut really well. Tennons cut were accurate to about .001. This little head can do 1 1/2" plus with the spacers that is in it now. There were a few things I didn't get when I put the cutters in and will go to the company that sells them this week. Found I had to use care to get the knives to center in each cutter. cleaned all up with lacquer thinner and spray gun cleaning brushes.

Do you locate parts the same each time and in the same relation on the spindle. I marked the cutters how they were sitting but forgot to mark it on the shaft but maybe that is not needed.
.[/QUOTE]

Warren, the minimum and maximum stamped on the cutter are just that. Doesn’t mean the high speed is the best speed.
When I say 1000 under that is just ballpark. It also varies by sound, feed speed, surface quality of the cut, how solid the machine is and bearing condition.

Your machine has a good range of speeds for any shaper cutters on the market today. 3500 rpm seems a little slow for a corrugated head. I usually run mine at 6000. Sometimes 4500 if a lot of projection. I just bought a European Corrugated head and will see what is stamped on it for speed tomorrow. My previous one was a not so great Byrd. I have run the newer Martins with variable speed. They are nice and the speed can be programmed into the settings for each cutter so you never have to think about it. Generally though I have never felt the 4 speed ranges on my 2 Martin’s was a issue with any cutters I own.

As I mentioned in the adj groover post knife fixing systems for insert cutters varies by mfg. You do have to use care and make sure everything is clean. You can usually visually see if anything is off. They are all a little different but generally make sure the knife is seated at the bottom and for height on rebate cutters and groovers the knife must not project above the knicker. If you ever get tearout with these that is usually the fault.

Your last question about cutter position on the shaft. I think you mean rotating the cutter a little bit if getting vibration or poor surface quality to help throw it in balance? I have done this with corrugated heads and older slip knives but most insert heads are well balanced and no need to play with this.

[Mel Fulks]

Several times I've seen guys using the small diameter cabinet door sets have trouble getting the cope and sticking to
fit. It's always the result of running the cutters at a speed under 10,000 rpms The cuts LOOK fine but will not work.
Someone here has posted before that the cutters have no clearance and depend on slight wobble to to fit correctly.

[Warren Lake]

thanks Joe

No minimum on any of my heads and I dont see reducing speeds much on insert heads. they are different than the varying cutter projection on others. Ive run corrugated down to 3,000 on big projection and serrated is 3,500 based on the guys that made the head but I dont have that speed on some machines so its run under. The combo machines have 3,500 and 7,000. There were made at a time people were likely using old school tooling then whatever was new probably brazed.

Get about sound feel feed rate etc, thats why I always hand feed first to feel the cutter, just seemed a blanket statement on the 1,000 under so thats why I asked. I cant see a reason to run the insert too much under what they say as they are consistent projection same knife each time

Ill take this head to the guy that sells them this week as I found the knife could be offset to either side. I also found the little gib that puts pressure on the knife could be tilted left or right, my view is they were over tightened but maybe ill be proven wrong on that. Why else would there be play left and right unless the screw head or where it fits in the machined pocked on the gib thing was worn and that could or would be from overtightening. I had to clamp the head to a table and slide a pipe over the allen key to loosen them. Like the previous owner thought they were wheel lugs

Did make sure the groover part was not sticking out past the spur but also did tighten it to see if it would do that and it was easy to do that say .080 out one side and flush on the other. I used the used spurs as they had two sides not used but when I look at the pitch on the cutters it goes right across. Seems odd I thought only the tip was scoring a crisp edge. Will have to look at it more.

Mel thanks on those cope and stick cutters. I dont use them but that is good info that maybe results are different on cutters at higher speeds, sounds like some are a bit temperamental would have thought it all stays the same. have to wonder about the big cope heads. There is little info on them, people sell them but no one has a you tube of them working that I know of. Even serrated stuff at least there is one or two you tubes of those and one guy who knows them. Just like to see some big discs in action, the coping discs like Shcmidt and the newer stuff Brent posted. Dont know why manufacturers have not done videos of the stuff working


w


Joe no I didnt mean a balance thing on marking position, just a thing that came to mind and just wondered. I likely will mark stuff as one starting point. I numbers all the cutter spots on the head with one of those buzz tools. Id also change it up and see it makes any changes. On that shaper im at the bottom of the spindle and it was very true. I think it was .0005 runout at most. Positive for an old machine.

Martin ill get to that head, long day to the long term care home, nice drive sideroads winding no cars going there, snow storm on icey roads coming back. Enough fun for one day.

[Jeff Duncan]

Are you trying to get more speed for a specific reason, ie large production runs? I've run my T-160 at 10,000.... didn't really like it all that much, sounds like something taking off! The majority of stuff I do I believe is at right around 6000 rpm's and I find it perfect for most things I need, with the exception of my raised panel heads which are a bit larger diameter and need a slower speed. The thing is you can adjust your speed of feed to work with the 7500 rpm's you had it at. Unless again, your really trying to maximize output for large batches.

As far as cabinet door sets I've never had a problem with them at 6000 or so rpm's. I use Freeborn brazed tooling and the fit is very good. So good that on painted doors they look better than many more expensive shops doors I've seen which show stile rail joint lines after a very short time.

good luck,
JeffD

[Warren Lake]

Jeff wasnt looking for any reason other than im cross cutting and wanted to see how it feels and if there was a speed change. Fiddled a bit more and see there is .0025 play of these heads on the adapter bushings. Not ideal not the end of the world. Put a dial on and slapped the head back and forth to get a high and low. Both were the same the groover and the adjust able groover.

Martin you asked about the head size and its 140 MM. When you use it as a groover and its fairly closed on the low side you will have four cutters. If you flip and do tennons then its two cutters. Works fine over all and pretty accurate.

here as a groover with no shim in there. It came with one, did I read Joe say you are supposed to have at least one shim in there? maybe I misread that

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heads flipped with a spacer between, cleaned it up and changed out cutters after this,

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[Joe Calhoon]

Warren,
looks like just a standard 140 X 20 to 40 groover. Setup as a groover you can have zero shims. Using it as a groover with reduction bushings can be tricky depending on how many shims you use. For tenoning no issues. The bushings always fit just slightly loose. Euro tool mfgs us a ISO H 6 or 7 tolerance so they come off easy. That is something like .001mm. This is woodworking no worries about the fit.

For me 7000 rpm is fine with that cutter. Like Jeff mentions at 9000 it would be pretty loud. If you were feeding fast the speed would be good but in a custom shop high feed speeds are usually not desired or needed.

[Warren Lake]

HI Joe

thanks on all aspects there. Thoughts that came to mind the play etc so appreciate that, IN the process see my spindle lock has some good wear on it, clear that someone thought it was a brake think. Id have to see a fresh one but think so. Not a big deal just some hunting and could bevel some edges and maybe a bit easier. So enough time on those cutters for now. I had asked the company if here are specific ones for tennons and no response. Will still stop in shortly just go over a few things, Will have to work on larger ones. These will do small doors. I wondered if them have that extra play would affect shoulders. Wont be concerned about it. They cut well. At the speed I ran them dont find them loud, I always have ear muffs on anyway. Maybe more noise proportionally on serrated and corrugated when cutters are larger as they are catching more air with the odd larger projection of the knives. all good thanks to all.

[brent stanley]

How long a tenon can you do with that set Warren? Mine's good for around 1.25".

It'll be interesting to see what they say if they get back to you. 3/5 manufacturers I talked to said it was fine to split/flip their adj groovers for tenons where others said it was a no no...reasons might be obvious if you could hold them all in your hands and look at them, but it's always too hard to see details on the web site pictures.

A bunch of my insert tooling came with little setting devices that help make sure the carbide tip projection is the same and to spec all around though the good Whitehill stuff lines itself up just fine. At one time I bought a whole bunch of reducing bushings to enable bushing adjustable sets with various shim combinations and made out fine but I know it's generally considered a no no to bush these out.

Good to see you making sawdust Warren. I made a sled like yours just two days ago for coping in reverse....not fancy but works perfectly. We'll have to meet for a coffee next time you're up this way....I'll give you some big tenon discs to try,


B

[Martin Wasner]

I'd listen to Joe. I have zero experience with those heads specifically, but on a 5" three wing we run them at 6000 rpm. Everything else seems too fast in my opinion. Our copers run at 7000 rpm, same diameter, but I think that's a touch fast

End grain will support higher head speeds though as the material clears faster and builds up less heat than long grain. You're usually not running the chip load like you would while powerfeeding either.

[Warren Lake]

looks like the tennon length from that small head is about 1 5/8" maximum but its determined by the spacer size. They didnt respond to my email if there was any reason not to use them to cross cut. That tennon length is fine for a small door but a larger head would cover it all. I will ask them about the centering thing. The knife rests on a part of the head that is fine but though that angled set screw was supposed to line it all up and thats not so. Id like to know a torque number on the set screw. Never had much luck with any manufacturer asking that on spindle nuts.

Joe on the shaft and the play thing I put a corrugated on after to try cross cutting with that and it fit perfect there was no play. Just bring that up and it went on easily. With the heads for Tennons I think ideally you want them sitting the same as you are cutting two shoulders. Realize its splitting hairs. Likely each of the heads i have is different as they are different manufactures.

Martin next time on will try 6000 and see if i feel a difference. Cross cutting its making dust. Dadoeing it makes shavings. you have a three wing cutter and these are two when cross cutting at least when split.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin next time on will try 6000 and see if i feel a difference. Cross cutting its making dust. Dadoeing it makes shavings. you have a three wing cutter and these are two when cross cutting at least when split.


Just my guess, but I'd think 7000 rpm is probably pretty close to where you want to be being a two wing. Chip load might be too high at 6000 rpm. We've got a couple of things that we use a two wing on, and I usually bump the speed up to 7000 on those, but thats also power fed again.

I still need to find that formula and text you a picture of it for determining chip load. I'm not really sure it would apply as I mostly used it for figuring feed speed. Hand feeding things there's more feel to it.

[brent stanley]

Your feed rate (in inches/minute) divided by your desired chip thickness ( in inches) gives you cuts per minute. Divide that by your number of cutters and you get RPM.

0.01" chip load is a fine finish. There is some controversy about this formula though because some folks want to consider that at times, you only have a one-knife cut.

B

[Alex Tonin]

Chip Load = Feed Rate / (RPM x # of Wings)
When reading tool drawings, the # of wings is usually abbreviated as "Z".

Because the speeds you can get are usually somewhat limited, the easiest thing to control is your feed rate. If you have some scrap pieces, you can feed several pieces, increasing the feed speed with each one. Once you get a surface finish that's too rough for your liking, slow it down by 10% and you've likely found your preferred chip size.

[David Kumm]

Ideally the tip speed of the cutter is adjusted first which is dependent on the diameter of the cutter and the feed speed is then adjusted to provide the chip load and cut per inch. Slowing feed speed is only a partial compromise for improper tip speed. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

http://www.eoasaw.com/technical-information.html

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[brent stanley]

http://www.eoasaw.com/technical-information.html

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That's a great resource!

[Martin Wasner]

Ideally the tip speed of the cutter is adjusted first which is dependent on the diameter of the cutter and the feed speed is then adjusted to provide the chip load and cut per inch. Slowing feed speed is only a partial compromise for improper tip speed. Dave

Correct. Alex's formula looks about what I've got scribbled down somewheres. It's still only a guideline. Sometimes a little change gets a better result. At some point the science stops, and the ear/common sense takes over.

[brent stanley]

Correct. Alex's formula looks about what I've got scribbled down somewheres. It's still only a guideline. Sometimes a little change gets a better result. At some point the science stops, and the ear/common sense takes over.

Well said. I have charts and tables that live beside the shapers to make sure I'm in the ballpark, and then that's all refined while running the test pieces.