What has happened at Popular Woodworking magazine?

[Jerry Olexa]

I have subscribed to PW for many years and this has been a favorite of mine...They have, in past, emphasized I thought the traditional, hand tool approach to woodworking and making fine furniture...I loved many of the feature articles by people such as Chris Schwartz, Glen Huey, etc. Over the past 6-7 months i see many changes both in style, content and approach.. Glen Huey is no longer there and today's latest issue did not even List Chris Schwartz as a contributing editor...The approach seems to be changing to a DIY, garage style, handyman style..I'm disappointed but wondering if I am missing something here....Let me know your thoughts and observations...Its renewal time and I am concerned...Thank you in advance.:confused:

[Bill Houghton]

New editor. I've been watching it, hoping Andrew, the new editor, will rev up to the kind of standards that Chris and Megan set.

[Chris Schoenthal]

Got an email the other day offering a one year subscription for $5. Still couldn't bring myself to do it.

Chris

[Jason Lester]

I renewed my subscription and the next issue had an article on metalwork and welding. Huh?

Fine Woodworking also wasted many pages recently showing how to make Knapp joints, a joint that was only ever made because there was a machine that could make it. Why in the world would I want to duplicate a machine joint with that much work when a dovetail is stronger, easier, and looks better?

[Simon MacGowen]

I renewed my subscription and the next issue had an article on metalwork and welding. Huh?

Fine Woodworking also wasted many pages recently showing how to make Knapp joints,

Just like anybody else, FW is running out of materials to recycle (having recycled so much already!). It recently sent me a three-year renewal offer that looked fantastic. But I have decided to end my current subscription once it expires as the marginal value is so so little.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

I find that both Popular Woodworking and Fine Woodworking have slipped. I guess either the writers don't have the skills or maybe everything has been written. I still take both though.

[Chris Parks]

There is only so much you can write about on any subject, I notice one of the more prominent YouTubers must be starting to run into content problems as well lately.

[Derek Cohen]

I may read a magazine for 5 - 10 minutes to switch off when in bed at night. Or keep a bunch on my iPad for long plane flights.

I was extremely disappointed with the February edition. It was light years removed from the Popular Woodworking magazine under the guidance of Chris Schwarz. I read a magazine for article that make me think about what I am doing, offer a broader canvas by way of history to specific techniques, or teach/deminstrate more advanced skills. That edition was no different from Wood magazine, or something similar. I do not subscribe, or even read, magazines like that because they are for beginners.

It is very likely that my subscription will not be renewed. I continue with Fine Woodworking as there remains a fine standard. I accept that they need to cater for a varied readership, and I think that they do this quite well.

There are two other magazines that are worth looking at. The first is Furniture and Cabinetmaking (from the UK). It is a bit parochial, but often has interesting contemporary work as well as history and biographies. That was the fare of the late Woodwork, a magazine we all admired. The other mag is the Australian Wood Review. This has come up in recent years, and is in the FWW mold.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jerry Olexa]

You guys are noticing what I've been seeing too.....Sadly, I understand...Used to be a joy to open a new issue of a woodworking magazine...

[Steve Kang]

Has anyone tried Furniture and Cabinetmaking? It's a UK mag which focuses on fine furniture making.

[Michael Fross]

I've just let my Pop Woodworking subscription expire. I'll stay with FWW and I hope it does not slip as well. I've started to read "The Woodworker" magazine that Lost Art Press has published in book form. It's certainly dated, but I really enjoy the articles.

https://lostartpress.com/collections/books/products/the-woodworker-the-charles-h-hayward-years-vols-i-iv

Michael

[Andrew Seemann]

The approach seems to be changing to a DIY, garage style, handyman style..

In their defense, that is what they were like 20-odd years ago, when I had a subscription (one of those $5 deals that was a flyer in the mail). Maybe that also means FWW will revert back to the good magazine they were 20 years ago (I doubt it) :)

[Jason Lester]

Does anyone get Mortise and Tenon magazine? It seems really pricey, but the previews I've seen look good.

[Bob Glenn]

I think the last issue almost has more ads in it than content. As I posted here before, I let FWW expire and would have done the same with PW, except for the free subscription to a friend offer that came if I re-subscribed. I agre totally with others, PW has gone down hill since Megan and Chris have left.

[Simon MacGowen]

Does anyone get Mortise and Tenon magazine? It seems really pricey, but the previews I've seen look good.

You have to like or do the kind of work covered in that publication to find it interesting. I flipped through pages (all issues), and decided it wasn't right for me. But I must admit I am neither a book hoarder nor a tool one.

Simon

[Bill Houghton]

There are two other magazines that are worth looking at. The first is Furniture and Cabinetmaking (from the UK). It is a bit parochial, but often has interesting contemporary work as well as history and biographies. That was the fare of the late Woodwork, a magazine we all admired. The other mag is the Australian Wood Review. This has come up in recent years, and is in the FWW mold.

Derek
A semi-local (next town over) newsstand used to carry Australian Wood Review at an affordable price. I was delighted by it, and looked into subscribing, but the subscription cost was daunting. Alas, that newsstand shut down, and I haven't seen it since. It's too bad: there were enough differences from American practices to make it inspiring. I remember in particular a large European-style piece (secretary or tall chest of drawers or the like) made by an Australian of European ancestry and then painted by his work partner, an Australian of aboriginal ancestry, in traditional aboriginal style (very pointillist). It was stunning.

I note that the subscription cost for Furniture and Cabinetmaking is equally daunting, at least in print form. I don't do well with digital text; I want something I can read anywhere, and I am not interested in buying an iPad.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Folks,

Is it possible that all of the magazines folks like us read or use to read, such as popular mechanics, wood and shop, and the those mentioned above, are facing the same battle?

I think the younger folks aren't the "do it yourself" types that our "non-spring chicken" generation is, and our generation was less so than our parents generation. The young folks are much more into computer stuff, etc., clearly not all, but a lot of them.

School "manual training," woodworking shop, carpentry, metal shop, and general shop classes, as well as "home economics" for the girls, are going away. So, I think that the number of folks under 40 or 50, that had a basic introduction to woodworking, from a class in highschool, might be shrinking greatly.

The internet is also a competition for the magazines, Youtube, etc., that has woodworking stuff.

Is the world changing and the demand for information on hand tool woodworking is drifting down? I personally know of a few woodworkers, but only know of one who is interested in hand tool woodworking. Thus, is the world changing to the point that the demand for these types of magazines is greatly decreasing so that the magazines are trying different things in a despirate attempt to have a broader appeal, and thus increase circulation?

Or, are these magazines being sold to conglomerates who do not have folks on the executive level who know the readership of such magazines, and in an unwise effort to "appeal to a broader base" they unwittingly lose the appeal to the solid base they have, and as a result are hastening the final end of such magazines? I am thinking we could be seeing the same sort of short sighted thinking by executives that lead to the "race to the bottom of quality" of woodworking hand tools that occurred in the 1960s.

In short, is the readership of such magazines, and for this forum for example, consisting of us over 50 folks, and every year there are a few less of us who have an interest in woodworking, etc.? Or is it some of the other factors, such as some listed listed above or other?

What do you think?

Regards,

Stew

[lowell holmes]

I may read a magazine for 5 - 10 minutes to switch off when in bed at night. Or keep a bunch on my iPad for long plane flights.

I was extremely disappointed with the February edition. It was light years removed from the Popular Woodworking magazine under the guidance of Chris Schwarz. I read a magazine for article that make me think about what I am doing, offer a broader canvas by way of history to specific techniques, or teach/deminstrate more advanced skills. That edition was no different from Wood magazine, or something similar. I do not subscribe, or even read, magazines like that because they are for beginners.

It is very likely that my subscription will not be renewed. I continue with Fine Woodworking as there remains a fine standard. I accept that they need to cater for a varied readership, and I think that they do this quite well.

There are two other magazines that are worth looking at. The first is Furniture and Cabinetmaking (from the UK). It is a bit parochial, but often has interesting contemporary work as well as history and biographies. That was the fare of the late Woodwork, a magazine we all admired. The other mag is the Australian Wood Review. This has come up in recent years, and is in the FWW mold.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I agree, Popular Woodworking is a mere shadow of it old self. Fine Woodworking is not much better.
I am sad.

[Bob Lang]

Or, are these magazines being sold to conglomerates who do not have folks on the executive level who know the readership of such magazines, and in an unwise effort to "appeal to a broader base" they unwittingly lose the appeal to the solid base they have, and as a result are hastening the final end of such magazines? I am thinking we could be seeing the same sort of short sighted thinking by executives that lead to the "race to the bottom of quality" of woodworking hand tools that occurred in the 1960s.




That's the biggest reason. If no one in upper management understands (or cares about) the audience and the craft they aren't capable of hiring or keeping anyone who does to produce the content. Quality of content is the least important thing to most people in publishing. At the highest levels it is all about numbers, making the people above you happy and keeping the people below you in line. That trickles down and you wind up with a staff that doesn't really know enough about their subject to be able to tell if what winds up in print is any good or not. What you're seeing is the publishing industry facing fundamental changes due to the internet and making all the wrong moves in response.

Bob Lang

[lowell holmes]

I believe this is the author of the previous post.
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-daily/bob-lang-highlights-workbench-plans/

The magazine has really slipped. I don't take it anymore.
Also, Fine Woodworking is not much better.

[Jerry Olexa]

I agree, Popular Woodworking is a mere shadow of it old self. Fine Woodworking is not much better.
I am sad.

Well said , Lowell!! I am sad too..

[Simon MacGowen]

Finally got a chance to page through the latest issue of PW quickly.

Shave horse, bar stool, mitered credenza are the main projects featured.

Guys. The first two projects (or similar) have been featured before the current editorial team was put in charge. And, all of them have been featured in FW. So, what are bad about the latest issue? Because they are not completed using traditional tools? Most FW projects are not completed with traditional tools either as far as I know.

Simon

[mike v flaim]

I think F+W Media has been sold to a new owner again. The new owners probably came in and said "Wood and This Old House magazines have 4x the amount of subscribers than Pop Wood. That's who we need to be." So, off they went to redo the magazine to appeal to a broader audience. The ironic thing is that F+W had American Woodworker which they shuttered only to have the new Pop Wood mimic it.

[Steven Harrison]

Hi Folks,

Is it possible that all of the magazines folks like us read or use to read, such as popular mechanics, wood and shop, and the those mentioned above, are facing the same battle?

I think the younger folks aren't the "do it yourself" types that our "non-spring chicken" generation is, and our generation was less so than our parents generation. The young folks are much more into computer stuff, etc., clearly not all, but a lot of them.

School "manual training," woodworking shop, carpentry, metal shop, and general shop classes, as well as "home economics" for the girls, are going away. So, I think that the number of folks under 40 or 50, that had a basic introduction to woodworking, from a class in highschool, might be shrinking greatly.

The internet is also a competition for the magazines, Youtube, etc., that has woodworking stuff.

Is the world changing and the demand for information on hand tool woodworking is drifting down? I personally know of a few woodworkers, but only know of one who is interested in hand tool woodworking. Thus, is the world changing to the point that the demand for these types of magazines is greatly decreasing so that the magazines are trying different things in a despirate attempt to have a broader appeal, and thus increase circulation?

Or, are these magazines being sold to conglomerates who do not have folks on the executive level who know the readership of such magazines, and in an unwise effort to "appeal to a broader base" they unwittingly lose the appeal to the solid base they have, and as a result are hastening the final end of such magazines? I am thinking we could be seeing the same sort of short sighted thinking by executives that lead to the "race to the bottom of quality" of woodworking hand tools that occurred in the 1960s.

In short, is the readership of such magazines, and for this forum for example, consisting of us over 50 folks, and every year there are a few less of us who have an interest in woodworking, etc.? Or is it some of the other factors, such as some listed listed above or other?

What do you think?

Regards,

Stew

I'm in my early 30's and would agree that there are skills that the younger generation may not be as adept at as their parents, but vice versa. There is a reason for the hand tool resurgence though. It's a common thing for me to read about someone looking at hand tools and really appreciating their use and the process because they work in IT (I work in automation) because they sit in front of a computer or they want to unplug at times. There is another online woodworking forum that I participate in that has more than a million subscribers and seems like it's skewed to a younger demographic. On the other side, the DIY forum on that site has over 15 million subscribers. In those forums you might find someone who makes an arcade cabinet, but also puts together the computer inside to run it right along side something traditional.

Everything in print is trying to adapt to the availability of information on the internet, not just the magazines that are losing subscribers. It's a fine line the magazines walk, how do you draw in younger subscribers? Maybe offer projects that involve a mix of hand tools all the way to CNCs and incorporated electronics, but then are they at risk of losing their older subscribers?

[Jeff Heath]

All you need to do is go to YouTube and see who the most popular "creators" or "makers" (whatever they call themselves) are, and what video's get the most views, and you will have your answers. The 'next' generation, as stated, wants everything fast, cheap, and built with whatever tools are already rusting in dad's garage. Compare video's by a very popular YouTuber who has 1.5 million subscribers, and builds projects in 10 minutes, at 16X speed, with ZERO detail, out of pallet wood from a dumpster or rusty metal from a torn down building........(compare) to some outstanding craftsmen/women who are making high quality furniture pieces and reproductions using expensive materials in shops with $100K worth of machinery and hand tools, who get a couple thousand views.

The publishers have to sell magazines in large enough volume to stay on the shelves. I let my FWW subscription expire about 18 years ago, when they stopped doing "Fine" projects, and started doing cordless drill reviews. PW has been my favorite rag to look at, from time to time, but the people who made it a favorite, including Bob upstream in this thread, aren't writing the articles anymore. I really couldn't care less about the next cheapo tracksaw available at Lowes, or a $19 set of brad point bits made in china. If I pick up a magazine, open it up, and see the first 2 or 4 pages are advertisements for machines from the far east, I put it right back down on the rack and move on.

We use to discuss this very topic 20 years ago over on "The Knots", which was FWW's online forum. Most of the writers in the magazine (if not all), and a lot of extremely talented woodworkers from around the world, participated there. That forum gave fantastic feedback to the magazine division about what the magazine SHOULD contain to continue to hold interest to people doing FINE woodworking. Taunton repaid us by closing down the forum. There's your publisher attitude in a nutshell.

[steven c newman]

One can always wait around, and read through my next "Build" thread.....since I do a few, now and then. I don't do youtube.....so, you will just have to read along, and enjoy all the pictures...

[Derek Cohen]

Steve, you are such a card. I see the gall bladder did not slow down your wit! :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jerry Olexa]

Our world is changing as we speak.....Like losing a good friend. (sigh)

[Tony Zaffuto]

All you need to do is go to YouTube and see who the most popular "creators" or "makers" (whatever they call themselves) are, and what video's get the most views, and you will have your answers. The 'next' generation, as stated, wants everything fast, cheap, and built with whatever tools are already rusting in dad's garage. Compare video's by a very popular YouTuber who has 1.5 million subscribers, and builds projects in 10 minutes, at 16X speed, with ZERO detail, out of pallet wood from a dumpster or rusty metal from a torn down building........(compare) to some outstanding craftsmen/women who are making high quality furniture pieces and reproductions using expensive materials in shops with $100K worth of machinery and hand tools, who get a couple thousand views.

The publishers have to sell magazines in large enough volume to stay on the shelves. I let my FWW subscription expire about 18 years ago, when they stopped doing "Fine" projects, and started doing cordless drill reviews. PW has been my favorite rag to look at, from time to time, but the people who made it a favorite, including Bob upstream in this thread, aren't writing the articles anymore. I really couldn't care less about the next cheapo tracksaw available at Lowes, or a $19 set of brad point bits made in china. If I pick up a magazine, open it up, and see the first 2 or 4 pages are advertisements for machines from the far east, I put it right back down on the rack and move on.

We use to discuss this very topic 20 years ago over on "The Knots", which was FWW's online forum. Most of the writers in the magazine (if not all), and a lot of extremely talented woodworkers from around the world, participated there. That forum gave fantastic feedback to the magazine division about what the magazine SHOULD contain to continue to hold interest to people doing FINE woodworking. Taunton repaid us by closing down the forum. There's your publisher attitude in a nutshell.

Was "Knots" 20 years ago already? I know way more than a decade, and that the last few years were dominated by a few posters, along with the horrid new forum software.

[Marshall Harrison]

it's happening everywhere. Newspapers, catalogs magazines and probably other things are all going digital. While I like youtube videos I just don't lear from or enjoy digital magazines.

I currently only have subscriptions to Woodworker's Journal (expires 6/19) and Woodsmith (expires sometime in 2020). Not sure if I'll renew, though I am thinking about the 2for1 offer on Woodcraft magazine. Need to look at one first to decide if it is worth it.

Chris explains his exodus here - https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog-woodworking-blogs/fight-progress-again/

[Jeff Heath]

Was "Knots" 20 years ago already? I know way more than a decade, and that the last few years were dominated by a few posters, along with the horrid new forum software.

I know I was very active around that time. I honestly don't remember exactly when they switched to their "Beta" format, which was expressive language for "take a hike", because they made it impossible to participate. Intentional sabotage, is what I always thought of it. I know it was after 2005, because that was the year of Montanafest, which was a big gathering of forum members from "Knots" and "Woodcentral." So maybe about 12 years ago it met it's demise. I, too, remember the last few years being dominated by the same extremely long winded poster or 2, and that sent me away for good, along with 95% of the participants.

I look at my join date for this forum, 2007, as an indicator of the timeframe when Knots crashed, and I was looking for some place else to read.

[Jerry Olexa]

it's happening everywhere. Newspapers, catalogs magazines and probably other things are all going digital. While I like youtube videos I just don't lear from or enjoy digital magazines.

I currently only have subscriptions to Woodworker's Journal (expires 6/19) and Woodsmith (expires sometime in 2020). Not sure if I'll renew, though I am thinking about the 2for1 offer on Woodcraft magazine. Need to look at one first to decide if it is worth it.

Chris explains his exodus here - https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog-woodworking-blogs/fight-progress-again/

Thanks for the blog post link by Chris......

[Jerry Olexa]

I also notice, as several of you mentioned, the lack of "newness" in ALL woodworking mags....I usually feel after opening a new issue at my home "Yes, I've done that". That is my response to too many (most)of the articles inside....There's very little "newness" in the approaches used or the methods...Maybe I'm being condescending....10 years ago, I subscribed to virtually all woodworking mags...That disappointment I mentioned before has led me to now only 2 subscriptions (PW being one, and now in question)...Maybe I'm being too critical or expect too much but I am disappointed by the current offerings.

[Chris Parks]

Before the internet was magazines which I devoured, just about every single one on the hobbies I was interested in and before the magazines there was nothing except word of mouth, peer teaching in trades and self learning. After the magazines we have the internet....then what?

PS: We are in the middle of a new phenomin in a way, we have the time and money to pursue woodworking as a hobby or pleasant pursuit, before the second world war it was done on a necessity basis or to earn a dollar.

[Derek Cohen]

We read magazines for many reasons. Some want to be educated, and then become frustrated when the old articles are re-hashed. Some like to be stimulated, and seek ideas. Woodwork and FWW are welcomed for the Readers section. Woodwork was particularly great on featuring the work of artists and designers. I really liked that. Some like to be entertained - they've probably left for YouTube. And some want plans to follow, and prefer Wood, et al.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Peter Oster]

I think the new boys at PW are trying to get their feet on the ground after being thrown into the pile. Some of the old stalwarts like David Theil are still in the background. They seem to be doing an easy, intermediate, advanced article for each issue. Huey, Lang and Bender had made their living at woodworking so they seemed to have more credibility than the new kids.
If you read some of the publishing news you'll see where most owners a trying to push print out and go all on-line. PW has stopped cutting DVDs and sells their videos as streaming only. (not sure if you can download them). Woodcraft Magazine is backed by the mail order and stores.
Woodworkers Journal is backed by Rockler. Their last couple of issues are as good or better than PW. They also do surveys and just added scroll sawing after one. They seem to be listening to their customers.

[kreig mcbride]

One of the biggest difficulties for me was when F&W brought in security officers and forcefully removed two of the main authors to Popular Woodworking. Fired and removed without notice and forceably removed from the building. After that incident I avoid spending my monies with F&W.

Also, personally I am super tired of cabinet making which seems to be a mainstream in most magazines. Of course we all have our own interests, I enjoy the more creative aspects of wood working.

One more rant; I am also super tired of the constant barrage of renewal notices. I recently subscribed to a magazine and I receive renewal notices about once a week, really!! Also on these renewal notices, no-where does it show your subscription end date. So I then ignore this constant notification stuff and find my subscriptions run out and then never renew. Even now after two years of cancelling 2 magazines I still receive notifications for renewals. Why not put all the energy into making a better magazine?

[Jerry Olexa]

[QUOTE=kreig mcbride;2897931]One of the biggest difficulties for me was when F&W brought in security officers and forcefully removed two of the main authors to Popular Woodworking. Fired and removed without notice and forceably removed from the building. After that incident I avoid spending my monies with F&W.)

Kreig, did that removal include Glenn Huey and others? Curious...Not handled well. I agree with your thoughts...Thank you.

[Derek Cohen]

I know I was very active around that time. I honestly don't remember exactly when they switched to their "Beta" format, which was expressive language for "take a hike", because they made it impossible to participate. Intentional sabotage, is what I always thought of it. I know it was after 2005, because that was the year of Montanafest, which was a big gathering of forum members from "Knots" and "Woodcentral." So maybe about 12 years ago it met it's demise. I, too, remember the last few years being dominated by the same extremely long winded poster or 2, and that sent me away for good, along with 95% of the participants.

I look at my join date for this forum, 2007, as an indicator of the timeframe when Knots crashed, and I was looking for some place else to read.

Yes, about 12 years ago. I was a moderator on Knots. Not that that meant much. I never censored anyone. I do recall some humdinger "debates" with Larry Williams. There was a lot of energy there for a while ... then the forum operating system changed, and it became difficult to post pictures. This was FWW's way of winding down the forum, and we drifted away. Knots is still there, and some still post. All the old threads are still available for perusing, if you have a mind to do so. I miss Philip Marcou (my review of his first smoother led to a gunfight), Mike Wenzloff, Malcolm MacPherson, Metod ... Jeff, you were there .. Lataxe! Gad, he had a tongue and a turn of phrase! Aaaahhhh, those were the days.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

A lot of the old Knots crowd went to a place called The Burl......including me. Someone named Mel seemed to behind the "downturn"....

[Tony Zaffuto]

A lot of the old Knots crowd went to a place called The Burl......including me. Someone named Mel seemed to behind the "downturn"....

That was the name I was trying to remember. Mel could talk and talk and talk. What I remember was he took a very analytical approach to woodworking, reflected by his pre-retirement employment as a NASA engineer. It has been at least a decade since I visited was the Knots forum devolved into, but I seem to remember Mel turning his woodworking hobby-time towards carving, specifically the "Lancelot" thing that attaches to a 4-1/2 angle grinder.

The Knots forum, as Derek mentioned, had many talented posters.

[Jeff Heath]

Yes, about 12 years ago. I was a moderator on Knots. Not that that meant much. I never censored anyone. I do recall some humdinger "debates" with Larry Williams. There was a lot of energy there for a while ... then the forum operating system changed, and it became difficult to post pictures. This was FWW's way of winding down the forum, and we drifted away. Knots is still there, and some still post. All the old threads are still available for perusing, if you have a mind to do so. I miss Philip Marcou (my review of his first smoother led to a gunfight), Mike Wenzloff, Malcolm MacPherson, Metod ... Jeff, you were there .. Lataxe! Gad, he had a tongue and a turn of phrase! Aaaahhhh, those were the days.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ah, yes, Lataxe! Quite the wordsmith. And "Mel", always stirring up the hornets nest. Moderators? There were moderators at The Knots? ha ha ha Everyday, it seemed, was a gun fight at the OK Coral. Fun though, and passionate. I met a lot of great people there, and still stay in touch with many. Mookaroid (Marcou) and I still banter across the big ponds from time to time, and I've become good friends with a couple other guys. I drove out to Idaho last year to see a couple of guys from "Montanafest".

Yes, Larry Williams was a barn burner. You knew how to press his buttons, too, as I remember.

There will never be another Knots. That was a perfect storm of passionate woodworkers. A lot of great advice was dispensed, from a large bunch of talented craftsmen, in between all the "gunfights", as you called it. I seem to recall one of the most passionate gunfighters of them all was the lead guy from FWW. That was right at the same time that Mike Wenzloff just started making saws for sale, and got caught completely off guard with the 3 billion people that wanted one.

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

There is only so much you can write about on any subject, I notice one of the more prominent YouTubers must be starting to run into content problems as well lately.

Who is that? Maybe I'm missing out on a good backlog of videos.

[lowell holmes]

IMO, both magazines are pitiful compared to old issues. I will not subscribe to that quality. I wanted to use another word, but the administrators would have deleted it.

[mike v flaim]

A lot of the old Knots crowd went to a place called The Burl......including me. Someone named Mel seemed to behind the "downturn"....

The Burl still exists but it's all but dead. I was the one that created it and Mel told everyone to come visit. The Burl used the same format as Knots as it was owned by Delphi Forums, but even Delphi changed their software and the forum no longer looks like the old Knots. The Burl never got off the ground. It was Fine Homebuilding's forum that took off under the Delphi website with over 100k posts. You can still find it with a simple Google search.

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, Mel largely killed The Burl as well. The forum began well, with many from Knots attending. Mel continued at The Burl where he left off at Knots. His rambling posts would go on and on. One could ignore these. However, every thread had a constant stream of his reminders what "real woodworkers" or "professional woodworkers" would do instead. He did not build anything himself (he carved bowls) but he was a font of information gleaned from reading, and his constant reminders became wearying. He sucked the fun from a thread and from the forum. Members began staying away. When you banned him, after yet another of his tirades (one in particular which was extremely bigoted), the damage was done, and there were only a handful of contributors. I posted builds and reviews, replied as much as I could, but the forum simply ran out of steam.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Fournier]

Our craft has not changed much in many years. Our medium has not changed at all. The media has become very efficient at producing content. Intersection. We can talk more than we have to talk about. Simple as that. But now it is too expensive to be the internet so we remove services like PMs. The snake eats it's tail. One day in the future around an open fire I will talk to inductees about how to woodwork and we will shake hands and agree to meet again.

[Jeff Heath]

The Burl still exists but it's all but dead.

Hi, Mike. I hope all is well with you. Long time.

I agree with Derek. I gave my best effort to the Burl, but Mel sucked the air out of the room. I posted more there in 1 year than I have here in 12.

Take care.

[Mike Brady]

My overriding apprehension is that decreased coverage of hand tool woodworking in periodicals and other media may result in less participation by hobbyists. Out of sight is out of mind. Forum enthusiasts (we know who we are) are here for the duration, but new blood is certainly needed by forums, tool makers, wood suppliers, publishers, schools, and so on. Our craft and the business that is fueled by it depends on shared knowledge. If periodicals, trade shows, and retail stores are no longer viable, then other means need to be utilized to share knowledge and product information. Lie Nielsen's hand tool events are one good approach. Lee Valley will venture into forums on occasion; another effective means.

[Mark Carlson]

Print advertising has collapsed and magazines cant figure out how to survive. Staffs are cut, quality suffers and readership plummets. Same thing with newspapers. In the 90's I subscribed to 6 or so magazines and now subscribe to none. In my last move I gave away 100s of PWW, FWW, Woodsmith etc magazines. I use the internet (mostly youtube) now for woodworking content.

[Simon MacGowen]

Had a glance of the April 2019 issue of PW...the content (in terms of projects) is weaker than the last issue's. A table saw outfeed table is the feature project. So go figure. Did not count, but out of under 70 pages, lots of ads.

Simon

[James Pallas]

Follow the money DIY is where it is. BUILD YOUR OWN BATH VANITY detailed plans and parts list included. Gave up my last magazine last year, FWW. I take that back, I do buy Mortise and Tenon. A little expensive but good so far.
Jim

[John Stankus]

One thought
If you don’t like the content that is there, write an article. I’m sure they are always looking for good content

[Derek Cohen]

One thought
If you don’t like the content that is there, write an article. I’m sure they are always looking for good content

John, I wouldn't want to read a magazine that featured an article by me. I want something better ... by a real woodworker :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[kreig mcbride]

My second reply to this topic and thread. I really do enjoy my magazines and view them quite often. I keep all my mags and will randomly pick one up and browse and often get inspired about a project or topic I may had no interest in before. I do not expect any magazine to be perfect and in-fact, if there is one article of strong interest for me, then the magazine is a success even if the other articles are not so interesting. Tool reviews in the magazines are usually only so-so, they often do not get into the more depth one needs to make a decision for acquisition.

For me personally, I would prefer to continue with subscriptions to both support the publications and the authors and to support our hobbies and interests. I run away when the companies controlling the publications and authors and us, the subscribers are treated more like dirt than being treated with respect.

[Jeff Ranck]

John, I wouldn't want to read a magazine that featured an article by me. I want something better ... by a real woodworker :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Seriously? That's what you're going with? I can't count how much I've learned from you, the number of awards you've won for your pieces, and that doesn't include your piece featured in FWW. :cool:

[Derek Cohen]

Jeff, thank you, but I am not kidding. I am a hobbiest. I can do good work, but my on-line builds share the mistakes as much as the successes, and the mistakes are often due to my naiivety. I am good at problem solving, but my methods are not always the most efficient way of doing things - which would be taught by an experienced pro. I am often re-inventing the wheel. I would never hold up myself as a model to follow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

This forum is a good magazine. A subject is brought up or a method of work. It is than open for comment. Not everything works for everyone. I always think of that song "Fifty ways to leave your Lover" when reading posts. I enjoy trying different things to see if it works for me. I've tried dovetails with backsaws, hacksaws, coping saws, Japanese saws, flush cutting saws, jig saws, handsaws, table saws, scroll saws recip saws, bow saws with teeth from 32 to ten. They all work to some extent. It was fun the whole time. Most all were discussed right here at one time or another. Wow a magazine where you are an author. By the way, I use back saws, but a 32 tooth hacksaw works pretty well in hardwoods that are thin, under 1/4 inch or so. This I tried before the Zonas came about. The exactos were a little too flimsy for me.
Jim

[Doug Dawson]

Jeff, thank you, but I am not kidding. I am a hobbiest. I can do good work, but my on-line builds share the mistakes as much as the successes, and the mistakes are often due to my naiivety. I am good at problem solving, but my methods are not always the most efficient way of doing things - which would be taught by an experienced pro. I am often re-inventing the wheel. I would never hold up myself as a model to follow.

Reinvention of the wheel is how new wheels get invented. FWW has featured articles by countless talented "amateurs" like yourself. They have been some of the most interesting and informative articles, because their rubber is so close to the road. You should work something up and send it in as a proposal. Save their magazine!

[John Stankus]

John, I wouldn't want to read a magazine that featured an article by me. I want something better ... by a real woodworker :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

So much to unpack there.:)

What is "better"?

What is a "real" woodworker? (for that matter what is a "woodworker")

Some hobbyist woodworkers have quite a bit of expertise in a certain areas, that may be useful to share.

Let me pose a scenario:
Would you want to read an article by Flexner on the handtool work-ability of Australian hardwoods? What about an article by Flexner on finishing techniques for Australian Hardwoods? Flexner is attributed "real" or "professional" but his scope of expertise is relatively narrow.

There is expertise out there, that folks do not realize they have, and it may be worth sharing.

Derek-I know you were being a bit facetious, but I think there are many people who have benefited from your sharing of your expertise. Thank you. :)

What's the Groucho Marx quote?... I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would accept me as a member

John

[Jason Lester]

Derek's posts like the ones on the apothecary chest are as informative as any magazine article I've read.

That said, the new FWW is pretty good. They have a big comparison of sharpening guides and a nice arts and crafts bookcase.

Jason

[mike v flaim]

Yep, Mel was a fun sponge. If I remember right, he was a psychologist for NASA. I guess his job was to determine why astronauts made the decisions they made, but who knows.

I tried to keep the same feel of Knots while having very minimal moderation (if any), so conversations could flow without the fear of being banned like some woodworking forums. It's a shame it never took off.

[Jeff Ranck]

Jeff, thank you, but I am not kidding. I am a hobbiest. I can do good work, but my on-line builds share the mistakes as much as the successes, and the mistakes are often due to my naiivety. I am good at problem solving, but my methods are not always the most efficient way of doing things - which would be taught by an experienced pro. I am often re-inventing the wheel. I would never hold up myself as a model to follow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I understand, but couldn't help but pull your chain a bit. I think that is the role of us amateurs, reinventing the wheel. Just remember the Ark in the Bible was built by an amateur. The Titanic by professionals.

[James Waldron]

John, I wouldn't want to read a magazine that featured an article by me. I want something better ... by a real woodworker :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Some of us think there is none better in the current magazines, amateur or pro. So there. Keep working, keep posting and if you let us know you're being published in one of the mags, a lot of us will pick up a copy at the news stand.

That may not get you a magazine you want to read, but the rest of us would want to read it. Would you deprive us?

And your candor in reporting on fixing problems is far more instructive and useful that the picture perfect projects we typically see in the magazines.

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you Jim. I have had several articles published over about a decade, all of which were a result of requests by the magazines themselves. The last was a request by Megan for Pop Wood about two years ago, and there were several for the Australian Wood Review some years ago now (excellent magazine - I think that I mentioned this before).

There is a difference in writing for a magazine and a blog (or forum). The magazine has constraints on space/length. The writer hands over control of editing, and photos as well as paragraphs can get clipped and distorted. This has bothered me in the past. I like writing - it's in my blood. I come from a family with deep roots in this regard (my mother, for one, was a journalist, and a number of close family are or were well-known authors in their areas). We shall see. One day. Maybe.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

I have to echo what James says Derek. Your builds a fun to watch even with the whiskers and you not hiding them. Discussions are good also. There are others here doing builds here also. There is not many that I don't see a technique new to me that I want to try.
Jim

[Marshall Harrison]

There will never be another Knots. That was a perfect storm of passionate woodworkers. A lot of great advice was dispensed, from a large bunch of talented craftsmen, in between all the "gunfights", as you called it. I seem to recall one of the most passionate gunfighters of them all was the lead guy from FWW. That was right at the same time that Mike Wenzloff just started making saws for sale, and got caught completely off guard with the 3 billion people that wanted one.

I felt the same way about Badger Pond.

I remember starting up a conversation with a woodworker from Hiawassee GA on the Pond. Ended up renting a cabin from his wife for a two week vacation. He showed me how to hand cut dovetails and even took me to his lumber source and helped me choose some hickory and cherry to bring home. Irt was aa real community. When it died I did't find anywhere else until I came here.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Badger Pond then became Wood Central (not sure if WC archived The Pond, or was independently new), which was pretty good UNTIL domination by a few started. I remember one guy, from NYC that was the be all expert on everything and he did everything with the newly introduced LV LA jack. Didn't matter who you were, he would tell you how to do it better, using that plane.

[Kurtis Johnson]

I understand, but couldn't help but pull your chain a bit. I think that is the role of us amateurs, reinventing the wheel. Just remember the Ark in the Bible was built by an amateur. The Titanic by professionals.
Ha ha ha ha!

[lowell holmes]

Well, the April issue of Pop Wood came today. There is a project in it that interests me It is the Shaker Stepladder.
Other than that, it took me about 30 minutes to go through the magazine. I will go through it again to see if anything else pops up.

I think the editors should go through the archives and study the subject matter of the glory days of the magazine.

[Bill Houghton]

Badger Pond then became Wood Central (not sure if WC archived The Pond, or was independently new)...
Ellis Walentine, administrator of WoodCentral, which was already in operation when Badger Pond shut down, established a hand tool forum on WoodCentral to which much of the Badger Pond community migrated (thus the nickname for that forum for a while, "Ellis Island"). At some point, Wayne Miller, Badger Pond's administrator, agreed to have Ellis host the Badger Pond articles and related stuff on WoodCentral. There was even a CD of posts made, although no new ones were made after the initial run.

Bill, lived through that period and (surprising myself!) can still remember some of the details

[mike v flaim]

Mike, Mel largely killed The Burl as well. The forum began well, with many from Knots attending. Mel continued at The Burl where he left off at Knots. His rambling posts would go on and on. One could ignore these. However, every thread had a constant stream of his reminders what "real woodworkers" or "professional woodworkers" would do instead. He did not build anything himself (he carved bowls) but he was a font of information gleaned from reading, and his constant reminders became wearying. He sucked the fun from a thread and from the forum. Members began staying away. When you banned him, after yet another of his tirades (one in particular which was extremely bigoted), the damage was done, and there were only a handful of contributors. I posted builds and reviews, replied as much as I could, but the forum simply ran out of steam.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Thanks Derek for helping out The Burl when you did. Knots is alive and well and has been reincarnated as The Burl.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/burl

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Mike. I have posted on the old/new forum.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Marshall Harrison]

Well, the April issue of Pop Wood came today. There is a project in it that interests me It is the Shaker Stepladder.
Other than that, it took me about 30 minutes to go through the magazine. I will go through it again to see if anything else pops up.

I think the editors should go through the archives and study the subject matter of the glory days of the magazine.

For people new to woodworking the articles are probably just fine. The problem comes when we get old and our memory hasn't gone yet. We remember the old articles and often several cycles of repeats of those articles. To us it seems like they are just repeating the same articles over and over. But for newbies it's all new to them.

New or old, I still enjoy the magazines but I usually skim more than I read. For me it's more about the costs than the content these days.

[lowell holmes]

Well, the May issue leaves me flat.

[Bill Houghton]

For people new to woodworking the articles are probably just fine. The problem comes when we get old and our memory hasn't gone yet.
So, you're saying our opinion of them will improve again as we grow along and reach the stage that our libraries need just one book, because it's so darned good every time we read it - and the same with the magazines? Something to look forward to...

[lowell holmes]

I still enjoy the magazine when the articles are good. It may also be I was easier to please 20 years ago. :rolleyes:

[lowell holmes]

I bought the wood and have started the Shaker Step Ladder. I am using white pine and will make the top rung dark maple.

Man, it is cold in Galveston County Texas today. I haven't been this cold since I delivered the Oklahoma City Oklahoman newspaper
in Oklahoma City sixty some years ago. It was a morning and afternoon paper route, the Oklahoman in the morning and the Times in the afternoon.

[Jeff Heath]

Cold in Texas? It was -7° here this morning, and now it's snowing......

[lowell holmes]

At this minute it is 47 degrees in Dickinson, Galveston County, Texas. When I walked my Black Lab Madison this morning, I wore a feather down coat. This is cold for our location.
I remember as a high school kid in Oklahoma City delivering papers when the temperature was well below freezing.

[Jeff Heath]

For sure, everything is relative. My brother in law lives down in Galveston Bay, in your neck of the woods. When he comes up here, he never leaves the front of the fireplace, if it's winter. He grew up here, too, but he's in his 60's now, and got used to the warmer temps. This winter is holding on longer than it should. We're still in a deep freeze here.

[lowell holmes]

I grew up in Oklahoma where it does get cold.
Today in Galveston County Texas, it is in the 40's and 50's, and I am cold.
Of course thin blooded old men tend to get cold, it sure beats the alternative though. I'm thankful to be here.:)

[Bob Glenn]

But, Lowel, you can make a CNC router/outfeed table! You know you want one.

[Stew Denton]

I remember cold snaps in northwest Kansas where I grew up, and walking past the bank for an entire week in the morning on the way to grade school when the bank Time/Temperature display showed -10. That was a cold week.

Stew

[John Patric]

I suspect this thread is symptomatic of what has happened at Pop Woodworking i.e. it has become irrelevant to the original topic.

[mike v flaim]

I suspect this thread is symptomatic of what has happened at Pop Woodworking i.e. it has become irrelevant to the original topic.

Speaking of that, I just acquired all the issues of Home Furniture by Taunton Press at a local antique mall. Talk about inspiring, it's a shame a magazine like that doesn't exist anymore. Incredible magazine.

[Wayne Cannon]

As an alternative, there are a lot of outstanding videos available online; but I don't have the time or inclination to sort through all the junk that is also there. I know I'm missing out on a lot of good stuff. I would gladly pay for a "publication" that identifies, abstracts, organizes, and links to the good videos.

[Bob Leistner]

An easier way to find good videos is to look at the authors and pick from the ones who reliably make good content. That will shave down the numbers quickly.

[Tony Joyce]

I guess it comes as no great surprise that F&W has filed for bankruptcy. For now no more "Popular Woodworking"

[Paul Pflumm]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonysilber/2019/03/11/fw-media-citing-debt-decline-and-mismanagement-files-for-bankruptcy-protection/#125d5684355d It says magazines will operate until sold, which makes sense as a dead magazine is probably worth next to nothing.

[Simon MacGowen]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonysilber/2019/03/11/fw-media-citing-debt-decline-and-mismanagement-files-for-bankruptcy-protection/#125d5684355d It says magazines will operate until sold, which makes sense as a dead magazine is probably worth next to nothing.

When a vendor (whether it's a magazine, a gym, or a shop) heavily discounts its subscription prices in exchange for short-term cash, customers must be extra vigilant. Social media and digital platforms have helped push the demise of the print media (newspapers included). I suppose those who subscribed recently to PW could still cancel their orders.

Simon

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have not followed this whole thread, but I looked to see if this link was shared yet and didn’t see it. This is Chris Schwarz’s take on things:

[Jerry Olexa]

Frustrating...Our world changes and rapidly...Its enough to turn a man to drink....:)

[steven c newman]

Even worse..St. Paddy's Day is on a Sunday, this year.....:rolleyes:

[Keith Outten]

The organizations you support survive, that's the golden rule and it applies to brick and mortar stores as well as online organizations and companies.

Some of you may not have seen my previous posts concerning SawMill Creek. The use of advertising blocking is the norm these days so it is taking its toll on our ability to remain online in our current configuration. We recently removed all free access to email and private messages as a warning about upcoming changes. To date it has had very little impact so we will be moving to a subscription based structure shortly. In about one week we will eliminate all Visitor access here. The timeline for converting to a paid subscription basis is within the next 90 days for those of you who are registered Members. FWIW Visitor access here has always been a huge part of our ability to attract advertisers. Visitors today have no value since they consume resources and provide absolutely no source of revenue.

We cannot sell advertising that you don't view. Since advertising has paid for free access here since 2005 and it has decreased to a fraction of what it used to be all free access will cease to exist. Just so you know this is a wide spread problem for Internet sites that provide services and information, its not limited to just SawMill Creek. When Photo-Bucket started charging for the services they have always provided for free it was a preview of things to come.

[steven c newman]

And, will spell the end of my "Build-along" threads I post here.....

[Warren Mickley]

I spend most of my efforts here trying to explain the craft to amateurs. It is hard to wrap my head around paying for the privilege. Often the moderators act like they just want a club for engineers and doctors, not so much woodworkers.

[Simon MacGowen]

Some of you may not have seen my previous posts concerning SawMill Creek. The use of advertising blocking is the norm these days so it is taking its toll on our ability to remain online in our current configuration. We recently removed all free access to email and private messages as a warning about upcoming changes. To date it has had very little impact so we will be moving to a subscription based structure shortly. In about one week we will eliminate all Visitor access here. The timeline for converting to a paid subscription basis is within the next 90 days for those of you who are registered Members. FWIW Visitor access here has always been a huge part of our ability to attract advertisers. Visitors today have no value since they consume resources and provide absolutely no source of revenue.



I am a bit surprised that you chose to make this important announcement as part of this thread which has nothing to do with membership changes. Many others may have missed the forthcoming changes. I did not even know about the change to the email/private messages until I read this, and checked my account.

Of course, I might have missed the same announcement if you had made it somewhere else in the forum.


Simon

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The PM change is posted as an announcement at the top of every forum. Has been for weeks.


I am a bit surprised that you chose to make this important announcement as part of this thread which has nothing to do with membership changes. Many others may have missed the forthcoming changes. I did not even know about the change to the email/private messages until I read this, and checked my account.

Of course, I might have missed the same announcement if you had made it somewhere else in the forum.


Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

The organizations you support survive, that's the golden rule and it applies to brick and mortar stores as well as online organizations and companies.

Some of you may not have seen my previous posts concerning SawMill Creek. The use of advertising blocking is the norm these days so it is taking its toll on our ability to remain online in our current configuration. We recently removed all free access to email and private messages as a warning about upcoming changes. To date it has had very little impact so we will be moving to a subscription based structure shortly. In about one week we will eliminate all Visitor access here. The timeline for converting to a paid subscription basis is within the next 90 days for those of you who are registered Members. FWIW Visitor access here has always been a huge part of our ability to attract advertisers. Visitors today have no value since they consume resources and provide absolutely no source of revenue.

We cannot sell advertising that you don't view. Since advertising has paid for free access here since 2005 and it has decreased to a fraction of what it used to be all free access will cease to exist. Just so you know this is a wide spread problem for Internet sites that provide services and information, its not limited to just SawMill Creek. When Photo-Bucket started charging for the services they have always provided for free it was a preview of things to come.

Well, that's a shame. I was hoping the change to subscription-based usage was a year or so off. :(

[Simon MacGowen]

The PM change is posted as an announcement at the top of every forum. Has been for weeks.

Thanks. But nothing about this more important message:

In about one week we will eliminate all Visitor access here. The timeline for converting to a paid subscription basis is within the next 90 days for those of you who are registered Members

Simon

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Keith has mentioned the financial problems and the likely change to a subscription base more then once in recent months.

I guess I just don’t know why somebody who does not bother to read announcements would complain that some upcoming changes have not been announced.

[Ray Selinger]

Oh that's sad. I think we've just lived through the golden age.

I got volunteered by my rockhound wife to install a couple of doors in the basement of 100 year old community hall they had rented for workshop. I got my Stanley #95 butt gauge out and found a Stanley#702 vise at the fleamarket . I thought to get an evening's worth of reading by googleing them. I got a few ads.

[Simon MacGowen]

Keith has mentioned the financial problems and the likely change to a subscription base more then once in recent months.

I guess I just don’t know why somebody who does not bother to read announcements would complain that some upcoming changes have not been announced.

Complaint?

I was trying to make Keith aware of the possibility that his important 90-day message could be missed by others who don't check out the Popular Woodworking thread. As it turned out, I was right, because that message indeed isn't in the Announcement.

Simon

[JimA Thornton]

I'm always surprised when I see how upset some folks get when they discover that they aren't going to get a "free lunch" anymore. Such a sense of entitlement!

[steven c newman]

Same thing that happened to PW...and to WOOD-on-Line Forums.....seems to be about to happen here...

No "Free Lunch", think about all I have to do with my time, in order to bring my Build-along posts here....I let the ones with Sponsors continue with theirs....

[Keith Outten]

I have been discussing the problems we are facing for some time and I have made incremental steps to try and raise awareness hoping to gather support from people volunteering to help us financially. Sadly, only a very small number of people will read any post that I make whether its an announcement or thread. Posting in an existing active thread gets me more attention, trust me this has been the case for over 16 years. I can't make anyone read my posts, the majority skip right over the information I share so I use whatever means I can to share what I know.

I cannot provide the current level of services without a source of financial support. We went though this same situation in 2005 when the majority here decided that they preferred advertising to pay for free access. Today the majority are using advertising blocking which has taken a toll on our list of advertisers to the point that we cannot continue without finding an alternative source of funds.

I understand that a large number of people will cease to participate here, I have anticipated that over the last few months as I have made recent decisions. Honestly if 50 cents per month puts a burden on anyone here who probably owns thousands of dollars of tools and machinery that is a sad situation. Anyone who has ever paid for a magazine subscription should concede that the services here are a magnitude of several times more valuable. On a personal note I have often asked Members here what they think that I owe them or what services they think I am obligated to provide for free from my family budget or profits my sign business.

I have no intention to argue with anyone concerning the changes we are facing, the situation is your doing not mine. The majority here want free service and they block my efforts to provide them.

[Brian Holcombe]

I suppose it's a difficult metric to track, but the sponsor's products come up often in conversation and those conversations often result in sales.

Maybe it could be as simple as everyone is required to put their favorite sponsor in their signature and you guys get a cut every time someone buy's via the links. I think that would be something that does not get removed by ad blockers and would have a worthwhile result.

[J. Greg Jones]

I cannot provide the current level of services without a source of financial support. We went though this same situation in 2005 when the majority here decided that they preferred advertising to pay for free access. Today the majority are using advertising blocking which has taken a toll on our list of advertisers to the point that we cannot continue without finding an alternative source of funds...
Keith, I'm one of the members who once was a contributor and decided to go to member status because of the advertising. With the situation that you have described, will the advertising go away once SMC becomes paid-only access?

[Kurt Cady]

I have been discussing the problems we are facing for some time and I have made incremental steps to try and raise awareness hoping to gather support from people volunteering to help us financially. Sadly, only a very small number of people will read any post that I make whether its an announcement or thread. Posting in an existing active thread gets me more attention, trust me this has been the case for over 16 years. I can't make anyone read my posts, the majority skip right over the information I share so I use whatever means I can to share what I know.

I cannot provide the current level of services without a source of financial support. We went though this same situation in 2005 when the majority here decided that they preferred advertising to pay for free access. Today the majority are using advertising blocking which has taken a toll on our list of advertisers to the point that we cannot continue without finding an alternative source of funds.

I understand that a large number of people will cease to participate here, I have anticipated that over the last few months as I have made recent decisions. Honestly if 50 cents per month puts a burden on anyone here who probably owns thousands of dollars of tools and machinery that is a sad situation. Anyone who has ever paid for a magazine subscription should concede that the services here are a magnitude of several times more valuable. On a personal note I have often asked Members here what they think that I owe them or what services they think I am obligated to provide for free from my family budget or profits my sign business.

I have no intention to argue with anyone concerning the changes we are facing, the situation is your doing not mine. The majority here want free service and they block my efforts to provide them.

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is not losing active members; it is that there will now be a large hurdle for gaining new members. Like most everyone here I found this place through a Google search. If it wasn't free easy access to knowledge starting out, I would've clicked the next link and never looked back

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have been discussing the problems we are facing for some time and I have made incremental steps to try and raise awareness hoping to gather support from people volunteering to help us financially. Sadly, only a very small number of people will read any post that I make whether its an announcement or thread. Posting in an existing active thread gets me more attention, trust me this has been the case for over 16 years. I can't make anyone read my posts, the majority skip right over the information I share so I use whatever means I can to share what I know.

I cannot provide the current level of services without a source of financial support. We went though this same situation in 2005 when the majority here decided that they preferred advertising to pay for free access. Today the majority are using advertising blocking which has taken a toll on our list of advertisers to the point that we cannot continue without finding an alternative source of funds.

I understand that a large number of people will cease to participate here, I have anticipated that over the last few months as I have made recent decisions. Honestly if 50 cents per month puts a burden on anyone here who probably owns thousands of dollars of tools and machinery that is a sad situation. Anyone who has ever paid for a magazine subscription should concede that the services here are a magnitude of several times more valuable. On a personal note I have often asked Members here what they think that I owe them or what services they think I am obligated to provide for free from my family budget or profits my sign business.

I have no intention to argue with anyone concerning the changes we are facing, the situation is your doing not mine. The majority here want free service and they block my efforts to provide them.

So, the fee will be $6.00/year?

[Jason Dean]

Same thing that happened to PW...and to WOOD-on-Line Forums.....seems to be about to happen here...

No "Free Lunch", think about all I have to do with my time, in order to bring my Build-along posts here....I let the ones with Sponsors continue with theirs....

Steve, I contributed yesterday. It was $6. That's lunch at Taco Bell. . .one time.

[Tony Zaffuto]

So, the fee will be $6.00/year?

I'm in, with a bit extra.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is not losing active members; it is that there will now be a large hurdle for gaining new members. Like most everyone here I found this place through a Google search. If it wasn't free easy access to knowledge starting out, I would've clicked the next link and never looked back

What about free access for the first six months or 50 posts? Hopefully after that the person is hooked.

[Keith Outten]

Contributors have always had the option to eliminate banner advertising here. They can turn them on or off at any time.

We don't always have a means to configure custom features, only what vBulletin offers and I can't afford custom programming. We are still planning to convert to Xenforo at some point in time, what we can customize is not known at this time.

Attracting new Subscribers will be more difficult. We hope that our Hall of Fame will serve to give people a taste of what is inside The Creek. Offering free access for 90 days will not prevent people from registering every 90 days.

The subscription rate will be somewhere between one to two dollars per month. All of our existing Contributors accounts will not be changed for their current period. If everyone would subscribe we could reduce the 6 dollars per year but we know the numbers will drop so the fee will probably have to be increased.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Keith

I have no issue with being charged a fee, and have been a Contributor for some years. I visit every day, even often pop in several times a day. This is a great woodworking forum ... but it is so because of the members who contribute here. Anything that makes membership difficult is going to dissuade membership, and then activity on the forums. That will kill the website.

As mentioned, $6 pa is a pittance. Most here spend more per day on something else and do not question that purchase. I do not think that it is the money, per se, that is the concern. It is how this is set up.

The other matter is the ad block apps. I use one on my laptop. I am on my iPad at present, which does not do this. It makes me aware that some websites will notify you to switch off an ad block to continue viewing. Sawmill Creek does not do this. That could be a simple solution to the advert situation .... if viewers then pause their ad blocker, the desired situation is restored, ads are activated, and you obtain your needed revenue. I would still continue to be a Contributor.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Hillestad]

Maybe if you ran off a few more valuable contributors (a la Stan Covington) that would increase the perceived value for the monetary contributions you need to keep the lights on....

[steven c newman]

Used to get mad at PBS every March....as their Fund Drives always pre-empted Norm's New Yankee Workshop....and you never did see those episodes again....wait, this is March, isn't it?

If'n I knew HOW and WHERE to send the dan..g $6 I would...don't have a Pay Pal account, anymore. Maybe just this once, I might try the "Contributor" and see IF it is worth the trouble...

[Bruce Page]

Steven, SMC's snail mail address is at the bottom of the Donate page.
https://sawmillcreek.org/payments.php

[Marshall Harrison]

Used to get mad at PBS every March....as their Fund Drives always pre-empted Norm's New Yankee Workshop....and you never did see those episodes again....wait, this is March, isn't it?

If'n I knew HOW and WHERE to send the dan..g $6 I would...don't have a Pay Pal account, anymore. Maybe just this once, I might try the "Contributor" and see IF it is worth the trouble...

PayPal allows you to use a credit or debit card just like any other online purchase. No account necessary.

[steven c newman]

I stopped using PayPal long ago...after my account was hacked....

[Tony Zaffuto]

I stopped using PayPal long ago...after my account was hacked....

You can use PayPal as a guest, without logging in.

[Keith Outten]

This isn't the Federal Government where some are treated differently than others, there is no ruling class here.

Over the years I have banned a lot of people and many of them were shining stars in the woodworking field who felt that the rules didn't apply to them because they were special. Most of these people didn't deserve to be here, they were disrespectful and some could not resist using The Creek to advertise their services. The only person I regret eliminating his access here was a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient. To this day I wish that I could have found a way to protect his access but his violation was about the worst behavior I have ever seen here. There are often facts that you will never know about a variety of infractions, most involve extremely disrespectful comments made in either email or private messages to me or one of our Moderators. If I visited your shop and cursed you or your wife like a construction worker or made insane demands you would throw me out on my behind in an instant. That's what I would deserve and that's what I do when this happens here.

My wife answers a certain percentage of email that we receive via the link at the bottom of every page. Not one of you would believe how nasty these email messages can get. Many who have been banned here go to other woodworking forums and post vulgar and insulting comments about me, nothing new here its been happening for many years and my skin has gotten pretty thick. I never allow anyone to be disrespectful towards me in my own house and I am especially quick on the draw when they use my services for free, disrespect our Moderators or are unfriendly to anyone here.

For all of the hours I spend working behind the scenes seven days a week for over 16 years I don't deserve to be harassed, abused or threatened but it happens all to frequently. In spite of the downside I am still here honoring a promise I made in 2005 that I would keep The Creek online as long as I have the support of this Community. If the majority here cannot support SawMill Creek for any reason that's fine with me but don't bash me when its gone. I have owned a server on the Internet continuously since 1995 and the only reason I didn't shut down this server in 2003 when I shut down Hampton Roads Online was because almost everyone here at the time asked me to continue.

I know where we have been, you tell me where we are going. If we have to shutdown so be it, I have kept my promise to all of you and I'm proud of what we have accomplished.
.

[Edwin Santos]

This isn't the Federal Government where some are treated differently than others, there is no ruling class here.



I thought there was a strict no politics rule here! Unless of course it doesn't apply to the ruling class :).

Don't get mad please, just a little friendly irony jest.

I've enjoyed this forum, learned some good things. Thank you for keeping it going thus far. Whatever you choose to do, it's your prerogative. I just hope you'll make your decision soon and get on with it.

BTW, I must not have banner ads turned off because I see them at the top of the page. One that keeps coming up is Lee Valley free shipping Feburary 6-20. Today is March 15th so maybe that one needs to be deleted?

[Pete Taran]

Keith,

I'm certainly sympathetic to your plight as no one should take a vow of poverty to provide a service that others enjoy. Having said that, I think the idea to ban anyone without paying is fraught with peril.

I like to think of online forums like bee hives. In a beehive, there is a bee keeper who pays for the pine box that the bees live it. He puts it out in the field, and then buys a starter colony. Once that's in place, he sits back and the bees go forth and collect pollen and bring it back to the hive. This continues and it is largely the bees who do the work and bring back the pollen. The beekeeper of course has to maintain the hive, but the maintenance is far less than the value the bees bring. The bees labor is free.

In this scenario, all the forum users are the bees. They share ideas, thoughts, images, techniques, etc. They make up the community. What you are advocating is to close the entrance to the hive and keep the bees already inside from mingling with the outside world. Bees not willing to pay to get into the hive will get turned away. In nature, what would happen is the non paying bees will find a new hive, and the paying bees would soon start to cannibalize each other until the last one dies of starvation. I posit that this is what will happen to SMC should you do down the pay to be a member road.

It doesn't have to be that way however. I articulated to you in private many ideas which you could use to accomplish payment for the server. I belong to other forums where they run an annual drive to pay for the server and bandwidth. A large thermometer is at the top of every forum page. A group half the size of SMC donates $10,000 in a space of a few days. Real donations in the bank, not just promises. No reason why that couldn't work here. People are generous when asked. People are resentful when taxed.

Further, it would seem you could loosen the reigns of the no commerce clause on SMC. I belong to other forums where for a $100/year, you can be a vendor sponsor and put a single text line in your signature advertising your website. No pictures, just text and a hyperlink. It's not at all onerous and not an nuisance for anyone. You can click it if you are interested, you can ignore it if you want. That's easily another $10-20,000 annually.

I also think that you could rethink the banner strategy. I use BRAVE for my browser, and the way the other forum has implemented their banner ads it is immune to ad blockers. Again, I don't think it is that onerous to see a banner at the top of each page. Advertisers pay a lot annually to be there, and since each banner is an active link, you have the power to demonstrate value to the folks footing the bill. The forum I have in mind uses the same exact software that you do.

I know that your vision is to keep SMC ad and commerce free, but in a world where stuff costs money, and people are not willing to part with that money, something has to change. I don't think most would be bothered by any of those ideas.

At the end of the day, you are in charge, and you make the rules. I just think there are a lot of ways to get what you want while remaining open and free.

With respect,

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

[Simon MacGowen]

I like to think of online forums like bee hives.

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

I like your analogy, and I also like your business acumen.

Simon

[Mark Rainey]

Ken, I thank you for running this forum. It is informative and valuable. Now is the time to see if the community values each other. I will pay the meager dues to participate.

[Mike Brady]

I do understand the need for revenue in maintaining web content. It is a bit of a stretch to justify why those who create the content of a forum would have to pay for the privilege. That is what advertisers are for. Certainly there are tool companies that have benefited tremendously from the exposure and readership of this forum. A few of them personally contribute to the content, and I assume make financial contributions as well.

I participate in several hobby forums. One of them is attempting to fund itself through ongoing (Go fund me-type) contributions. In that particular case there is content prepared by the editor and a fair amount of related advertising. It is a major part of his income (although he lives in NYC!) He is lamenting that he may have to discontinue. Here you are getting 99% amateur opinions. Is there value to that? If the potential advertisers who literally make their living from the people who participate here don't see enough value in it to give back, then perhaps it time for us all to move on.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think Pete comes up with some excellent points.

I really enjoy participating here, I learn a lot and I've met a lot of great people because of it. I'd like to see it continue.

[Mel Fulks]

I think the " 99 percent amateur opinion " assessment is way off. High percentage of business owners, tradesmen , and
artists post here. And some of the true amateurs post pics of complicated period furniture.

[Kurt Cady]

Keith,

I like to think of online forums like bee hives.

With respect,

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

Seconded! All great ideas.

I know I wouldn’t mind in the least seeing a banner ad as a Contributor, seeing signature lines, or any of the other ideas thrown out

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have no issue with banner ads and appreciate SMC, As the site is Keith's, it is his decision to what he sees fit. Those of us that enjoy the privilege of visiting here, should help support the costs as we see fit.

[Jerry Olexa]

Keith, all good suggestions..
I have a high regard and respect for this SMC forum and would like to see it continued forever....I understand the need for revenue to support it...
Price rises are a normal part of our daily lives...I can understand the need here and would happily continue as a contributor at a higher rate or as an annual separate contribution.
Also a simple request for funds/contribution to keep the ship afloat and continue the forum would seem to me reasonable and appropiate....I would participate in that as needed.
I also appreciate the effort that is made to maintain this site and feel, a contribution occassionally by us is in order.
Thank you for your past efforts as well as this one.

[Edwin Santos]

I think the " 99 percent amateur opinion " assessment is way off. High percentage of business owners, tradesmen , and
artists post here. And some of the true amateurs post pics of complicated period furniture.

True, but unless I missed the part where Keith solicited everyone's advice, it may not matter what the qualifications of the well intended authors are. As they say, unsolicited advice usually falls on deaf ears. Even if presented as artfully as Pete's.



On a personal note I have often asked Members here what they think that I owe them or what services they think I am obligated to provide for free from my family budget or profits my sign business.

I have no intention to argue with anyone concerning the changes we are facing, the situation is your doing not mine. The majority here want free service and they block my efforts to provide them.

It's hard to get inside another person's head, especially through internet dialogue. If by chance, Keith feels like a person both unappreciated and antagonized despite countless hours invested into a thankless task that primarily benefits everyone else in this community, then he may not have much appetite for the opinions of what he might perceive as backseat drivers who have never walked a step in his shoes. Not saying I agree or even have an opinion on this viewpoint. Just saying that additional advice, critique and opinions may not be serving any productive purpose.
Edwin

[Graham Haydon]

I've just set up a $2.00 monthly contribution. I value the forum a great deal and read with interest contributions from a variety of people. Although I am happy to contribute, I fear that it will create a barrier for new people joining. Keith, I can appreciate it is difficult to find a way to make this work but perhaps there is a way using ideas put forward by Pete? However, I appreciate this is your baby and nothing lasts forever. Fingers crossed a solution can be found!

[lowell holmes]

I can't find the May issue. I think I was so disgusted with it, I threw it away.:confused:

[Simon MacGowen]

I can't find the May issue. I think I was so disgusted with it, I threw it away.:confused:
One woodworker's trash is another woodworker's treasure?

Simon

[Rob Damon]

I am just curious. If the current paying members continue paying $6/yr, just how many new contributors are needed to keep the doors open; 100, 1000, 5000, 10000? What is the order of magnitude that we are looking at?

[Jerry Olexa]

I am just curious. If the current paying members continue paying $6/yr, just how many new contributors are needed to keep the doors open; 100, 1000, 5000, 10000? What is the order of magnitude that we are looking at?

Agree....Once we quantify, we can identify the need and address it...Great suggestion.

[Keith Outten]

I'm traveling today but I will address each point provided tomorrow.

[Tom Stenzel]

Judging from the number of ads that I see on SMC I'm getting a substantial proportion of total number of ads!

OK, just kidding. But I wonder if the problem isn't everyone is using ad blockers but are using tracker blockers. So we see the ads but as far as the counters are concerned we don't. I do use a tracker blocker so I might be part of the problem.

Even if the tracker issue is true I don't have a solution as far as ad revenue. I don't see any way around a subscription revenue system

Edit: I checked and found I have ajax.googleapis.com tracker on SMC blocked. I wonder who else "white listed" their ad blockers for SMC but forgot about the trackers?


-Tom

[Malcolm McLeod]

I am just curious. If the current paying members continue paying $6/yr, just how many new contributors are needed to keep the doors open; 100, 1000, 5000, 10000? What is the order of magnitude that we are looking at?


Agree....Once we quantify, we can identify the need and address it...Great suggestion.

I think I asked/suggested something very similar when this topic was previously active ... maybe 12-14 months ago? There was no response.

There are 2 ways to go here IMHO:
1. Act as a community, bust open the books, tell the contributors what's needed financially, and appeal to the generous nature of those here - sort of a go-fund-us campaign. I will decide how generous I wish to be. I read posts from many contributors who seem to support this and even Mr. Outten has appealed for this model on occasion. I don't pretend to know the numbers or if this can be sustaining, but visitors could perhaps still be welcomed and maybe limited to read-only status?

2. Be a business. Go to a paid subscription, bar freeloaders (visitors), set a price, and let the customer decide if they receive fair value. Clearly this seems to be the path we're on.

I am sure there are other options and hybrids of these two, but I can't quite see how they would work (you can't have it both ways?). ...Pick one and run with it. The awkward part at SMC is that the members provide the content, but advertisers pay the bills. We'll each have to figure out how to reconcile ourselves to that irony.

Others have said the same, but I'll repeat that whether you're a brick-and-motor store, a paper-and-ink magazine, or a electron-shuffling website, the lifeblood of virtually any 'business' is visitors. You can't sell something if visitors don't come thru the 'door'. Mr. Outten has repeatedly explained this IS a business. I respect that and will continue to support a business that provides a service I value.

FWIW, I first came to SMC via a Google search - - for something I don't even remember. I stumbled on a thread that caught my professional attention; I realized I could help, but had to register in order to provide that. I came back several times to see if I was successful (ego is an ugly thing:p). I read other content I found useful (thanks to other's egos;)). So I became a contributor. I will offer that if I had been required to pay for the privilege of helping Mr. Baker repair his elevator, he would probably be walking. (Sorry James!!)

My apologies to all if this sounds scolding or judgmental, I am shooting for as dispassionate as I know how, but I am not much of a word-smith. Good luck to all.

[Pete Taran]

Malcolm,

I think you are hovering over the target. Keith has been conspicuously quiet since his pledge of almost a week ago to address the points and suggestions given.

[Tony Zaffuto]

The solution, then is for Keith to remain silent until voluntary contributions either are sufficient to keep SMC as it is, or he has to make changes.

[Jerry Olexa]

Malcomb, I like your first option...Those of us that truly love/respect the SMC forum, would IMHO be willing to contribute extra if needed at times like this...let us know...

[Edwin Santos]

Malcolm,

I think you are hovering over the target.

Maybe you meant he's buzzing over the target (in keeping with your other artful post)?

Time will tell whether the queen bee likes the honey he put on the table.

Edwin

[All in good humor]

[Frederick Skelly]

Speaking personally? I wish Keith would just rip the bandage off and get it over with. Subscriber-based will either work ..... or it wont. I don't know. But let's move forward and find out.

YMMV. :)
Fred

[William Adams]

The problem is, as noted, the subscriber system makes it very hard to bring in new members.

I'd also argue that it goes against the very premise of openness and information interchange which the Internet was founded upon --- folks have been flacking concepts such as Ted Nelson's Xanadu for half a century now, and none of them have really worked.

[Brian Holcombe]

The early websites may have worked on that premise but it really has not worked out, the survivors have all needed to pull revenue from something other that large advertisers to remain viable.

I think it’s easy to forget that free information on the web costs someone something so it only exists so long as those that provide it can afford to do so and want to do so.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The solution to the "the subscriber system makes it very hard to bring in new members" as William mentioned is quite simple really.

Just limit non-members to viewing only the last 48 or 72 hours of posts. This way someone who is redirected to the site can get an impression of the type of rich content without the ability to search or browse for older content.

Ads will still show so the companies that pay the bills are still happy and the subscriber fees can be stay at 'contributor' level.

It doesn't have to be only one way or the other.

[John Kee]

I'm going to wish SCM Good Luck in your decision. There are many Members that give a lot of advice with out gaining much in the exchange except for helping others. This part of the equation is what management isn't considering. Personally I will not pay for the privilege of helping others on an Internet based forum.

[Edwin Santos]

I'm going to wish SCM Good Luck in your decision. There are many Members that give a lot of advice with out gaining much in the exchange except for helping others. This part of the equation is what management isn't considering. Personally I will not pay for the privilege of helping others on an Internet based forum.

Do you ever post any questions? Do you ever feel you've learned anything useful from others' posts?

It's your prerogative as to what to pay or not pay for, but you might be getting some benefit and not realizing it.

Even the most experienced, veteran woodworker who gives out more advice than he gets, still has things to learn IMO.

[Keith Outten]

John,

You have been a Member here for ten years and have a total of 161 posts. It looks like you are receiving way more than you have been giving. From your statement above it also appears that you don't really feel that its a privilege to help others. We are really going to miss you.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm going to wish SCM Good Luck in your decision. There are many Members that give a lot of advice with out gaining much in the exchange except for helping others. This part of the equation is what management isn't considering. Personally I will not pay for the privilege of helping others on an Internet based forum.

Your point is valid. I think this will be a different forum when it isnt free. But "Management"t HAS considered all of that. If you go back and read Keith Outten's posts over the last 6 mos, it seems to boil down to this (my words, not his):
1. He spends a lot of time running the forum
2. He's not a programmer and doesn't feel he can afford to hire one
3. He asked non-paying members for $ help and hasnt gotten as much as he'd hoped
4. He's not willing to spend more money out of his pocket on this (I don't blame him)
5. He's going to roll the dice on a subscriber-based approach He understands that may not succeed, but reference points 1-4 above.
6. If Subscriber-based doesn't work he'll shut it down (or sell what's left) in good conscience, because he kept his promise to the membership ten years ago.

When you look at it from Keith's knothole, why should he have to do more? He doesn't "owe us" a free website.

[Richard Jones]

"Personally I will not pay for the privilege of helping others on an Internet based forum."

That's the spirit!

[Keith Outten]

Half of SawMill Creek is considerably better then none which is what we will have if we can't pay the bills. There is no need to be concerned about who will leave The Creek or who will stop posting if The Creek doesn't exist.

I'm trying to save as much as I can rather than just throw in the towel. Maybe we will come back in the future even bigger and better then we have been in the past when we don't have so much overhead.

[John Kee]

John,

You have been a Member here for ten years and have a total of 161 posts. It looks like you are receiving way more than you have been giving. From your statement above it also appears that you don't really feel that its a privilege to help others. We are really going to miss you.

I've been a member for 10 years but really only started looking at the site in the last year or so. There has been the odd thing that I have found interesting to read and not really found much of any great interest hence the low number of posts. I use internet forums as entertainment. I've been a full time woodworker for many years hence the lack of new and interesting topics also the lack of actually asking questions. Most posts are the same old stuff that's also killing the magazine subscribers. You can take that for what its worth. Keith I do sincerely wish you good luck as its a great resource for some, especially the hobby crowd. Do what you gotta do!

[Jerry Olexa]

"Personally I will not pay for the privilege of helping others on an Internet based forum."

That's the spirit!

Yes, a great, positive attitude.

[John Kee]

Yes, a great, positive attitude.

Yes Jerry, a very positive attitude, I'm positive I will not pay but I have no issue with you paying to be a member. Its called freedom of choice. LOL

[James Pallas]

There are 3 things in any business to deal with, time, money, and aggravation. A person can deal with them one at a time successfully, all three are difficult. I very much respect Keith for explaining things as they are. I like SMC and don't want to see it go. I do see Keith is dealing with problems with the first two items. If he can find a way to work through those then maybe the third one won't get him. I would bet from some of the comments that many here have not had that experience. Keith I wish you well in your endeavor to keep going. I plan to stay around.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

Yes Jerry, a very positive attitude, I'm positive I will not pay but I have no issue with you paying to be a member. Its called freedom of choice. LOL

Everyone is right here, since we are not talking about public money.

It is no longer necessary for anyone to try to convince the other side that their side is the right side. I say, ACTION TIME (look at what happened to Brexit -- no amount of talk would get every British happy). The sky won't fall!

Simon

[Mike Brady]

Sorry, need a little clarification. I don't see any mention of this pending change elsewhere on the SMC forums, so does that mean the membership only applies to the Neanderthal Heaven forum? Also it appears that only the readers of this thread regarding Popular Woodworking magazine will know of the mandatory proposal. Wouldn't this fundamental change in the forum format warrant a separate thread?

[Simon MacGowen]

Also it appears that only the readers of this thread regarding Popular Woodworking magazine will know of the mandatory proposal. Wouldn't this fundamental change in the forum format warrant a separate thread?

When I made a point similar to yours way back in this thread, I was accused of having made a complaint!

Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

Sorry, need a little clarification. I don't see any mention of this pending change elsewhere on the SMC forums, so does that mean the membership only applies to the Neanderthal Heaven forum? Also it appears that only the readers of this thread regarding Popular Woodworking magazine will know of the mandatory proposal. Wouldn't this fundamental change in the forum format warrant a separate thread?

Hi Mike. This discussion has been going on in various threads and announcements for months. Somehow, the latest got buried in this thread and took it way off topic. Here's another thread where it is being discussed. LINK (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272853-What-is-a-subscriber-based-forum&highlight=Subscriber). Post #9 is from Keith.

[Jim Koepke]

"Personally I will not pay for the privilege of helping others on an Internet based forum."

That's the spirit!

There is an old saying, "what goes around comes around."

To me there are things learnt from helping others learn. Another old saying, "when one teaches, two learn."

My original introduction to SMC was via a Google search on boiled linseed oil. There have been many here who have helped me in many ways. It is also my hope that some of the content of my posts has been of help to others.

For me there is a value in helping others and in chipping in to keep such a forum going.

Hopefully there is a way to keep it going and still allow people searching for answers a way to find them via Google.

In my imagination there should be a way to limit free access. Maybe tied in with a limit of how many non-paying people can be on at a time. If folks were trying to freeload by erasing their browser history they may also run up against a screen that tells them the site traffic is congested at the moment but if they want to merge into the fast lane they can pay the dues.

Is there a way to limit images to contributors?

jtk

[Don Coffman]

Well I've watched, read, and pondered a bunch reading this and other threads concerning the status of SMC, I'm a member today, I plan to be a member tomorrow there will be a difference, I'm pitching in a little today to keep enjoying the creek.

[Keith Outten]

I will post in every forum when all of the final decisions have been made. I already know that this is a waste of time, the number of people who read announcement types of threads is very low. I get more attention and comments using existing threads, I don't like to jump on other people's threads but its necessary to get some feedback during the evaluation phase of any change.

We will probably send out a mass email to everyone one week before any major changes are made. We have only used this feature one time in 16 years but it works for the people whose email addresses are still accurate.

I expect the Friends of The Creek will get an overhaul and we will use forums rather then the current database system.
The Groups feature will also be converted to individual forums.

[Jerry Olexa]

There is an old saying, "what goes around comes around."

To me there are things learnt from helping others learn. Another old saying, "when one teaches, two learn."

My original introduction to SMC was via a Google search on boiled linseed oil. There have been many here who have helped me in many ways. It is also my hope that some of the content of my posts has been of help to others.

For me there is a value in helping others and in chipping in to keep such a forum going.

Hopefully there is a way to keep it going and still allow people searching for answers a way to find them via Google.

In my imagination there should be a way to limit free access. Maybe tied in with a limit of how many non-paying people can be on at a time. If folks were trying to freeload by erasing their browser history they may also run up against a screen that tells them the site traffic is congested at the moment but if they want to merge into the fast lane they can pay the dues.

Is there a way to limit images to contributors?

jtk

Jim, I have gained from your counsel many times in the past on this forum..Thank you...Thats the benefit of a forum like SMC i.e., the sharing of knowledge, experience and ideas..Certainly hope we can keep it going.

[Keith Outten]

The other thread where we are discussing these issues is What-is-a-subscriber-based-forum (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272853-What-is-a-subscriber-based-forum&highlight=Subscriber)

[Thomas Wilson]

I am not going to pay to feel unwelcome. You have a lot to do with your resident experts to make this forum worth my time or money.

Thomas

[Steve Clardy]

I am not going to pay to feel unwelcome. You have a lot to do with your resident experts to make this forum worth my time or money.

Thomas


Ok..............

[Wayne Cannon]

Steve, I contributed yesterday. It was $6. That's lunch at Taco Bell. . .one time.

You must eat at a different Taco Bell if you can get out for $6!

I agree that Sawmill Creek is worth far more than many subscriptions I pay for. Like someone said, it's losing the newbies that would hurt. Maybe the first year could be free.

[Jim Koepke]

You must eat at a different Taco Bell if you can get out for $6!

I agree that Sawmill Creek is worth far more than many subscriptions I pay for. Like someone said, it's losing the newbies that would hurt. Maybe the first year could be free.

If enough of the current members make a $6 contribution, maybe SMC won't have to go to a closed system.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

If enough of the current members make a $6 contribution, maybe SMC won't have to go to a closed system.

jtk

I would agree, and the icing on the cake would be for all to give a bit more.

SMC is a friendly place with a nice cross section of capabilities. A few years back, there were some that were not so pleasant to be around. I drifted away and when those characters moved on, I returned. IMO, it is worth it to have a civil environment and if some see fit to move on, well, so be it.

[Stewie Simpson]

What is unknown at this stage is the commitment from Corporate Sponsorship to accept these proposed changes. As it currently stands that revenue stands at $26,400. Worst case scenario, if they all decided to pull the pin in the next 12 - 24 months, an additional 4,400 paying members would be needed to replace that loss in revenue. (based on minimum $6.00 annual fee)

[Jerry Olexa]

[QUOTE=Tony Zaffuto;2912577]I would agree, and the icing on the cake would be for all to give a bit more.

Good thought Tony, I agree,,,

[Keith Outten]

We have tried everything possible to convert Members to Contributors though the years. Its never going to happen on a scale that will pay the bills as long as we provide free services.

If hosting an online forum is not free how can it be provided for free?
I have to sign contracts every few years with my bandwidth provider for a commercial connection that is quite expensive and pay monthly fees for IP addresses.
I have to purchase software upgrades.
I have to purchase new servers and other network hardware periodically.
I have to pay a server administrator.
I have to have business insurance, an office, a work computer, cell phone service, etc.
We consume electricity for heating and air conditioning, mostly air conditioning since the network hardware requires cooling well into January. In fact I have two independent cooling systems, one is a backup.
I spend several hours per day seven days per week working here plus a marketing effort during the week, however marketing is beginning to be a waste of time.
A 6 dollar annual donation doesn't all end up in our pockets since PayPal gets their portion, then state and federal corporate taxes plus all of the costs listed above.
While I was responding to this thread six new accounts had to be reviewed out of 124 today and I received ten emails and four private messages and we are discussing whether 50 cents per month is reasonable for monthly access.

FWIW none of this would be possible if not for our volunteer Moderators. SawMill Creek would resemble the "Wild West" and the majority here would be gone in a heartbeat.

[Timothy Shouldice]

Some of the news websites I read now use an 'ad removal pass'. Basically if it detects an ad blocker, it blocks access to the site. If the user buys the ad removal pass, they can see the content unrestricted but get charged a per page rate for views (which I assume is configurable, for the news sites where people read articles, its $0.01 per page, how that would work for a forum like this would need to be different).

[Jason Baker IX]

I have to sign contracts every few years with my bandwidth provider for a commercial connection that is quite expensive and pay monthly fees for IP addresses.
I have to purchase software upgrades.
I have to purchase new servers and other network hardware periodically.
I have to pay a server administrator.
I have to have business insurance, an office, a work computer, cell phone service, etc.
We consume electricity for heating and air conditioning, mostly air conditioning since the network hardware requires cooling well into January. In fact I have two independent cooling systems, one is a backup.


You host this forum on your own gear out of an office somewhere? :eek: Good lord, I'm going to add you to my prayer chain this week. You don't have to do this anymore. Seriously, unless looking at the blinky lights is one of the joys of the business for you. Send me a message and I'm happy to share advice on addressing hosting costs...

[steve swantee]

Like John Kee, I wish you good luck, but I will bid you adieu...

You might at least consider Hilton's suggestions above, if you expect to ever attract a new member...

Cheers....life is short, I've better ways to spend my time, than browsing an internet forum that doesn't appreciate it's visitors and members in any measurable way.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Like John Kee, I wish you good luck, but I will bid you adieu...

You might at least consider Hilton's suggestions above, if you expect to ever attract a new member...

Cheers....life is short, I've better ways to spend my time, than browsing an internet forum that doesn't appreciate it's visitors and members in any measurable way.

Adios Steve.

[Pete Taran]

Guys, maybe I'm old fashioned, but in the world where it will be hard to attract new members in the new pay to play regime, might not be the best idea to chase away current members with "what have you done for me lately" posts. I think they call this throwing gasoline on the fire.

[Derek Cohen]

... 170 posts in 12 years ...

Obviously a s-l-o-w reader .... :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Bottom line, friends ... the forum needs to be financed, and Keith needs both an income and time to live.

There are a number of different models for doing so. Keith needs to pick the best:

1. It is possible that the costs could be reduced significantly with the forum being hosted differently (via a specialist organisation, but still under Keith's control).

2. Software detecting adware is important if adverts drive finances. Switch the adware off to browse the forum. Get blocked otherwise. That is doable.

3. Even so, finance must come in, and adverts may not be enough to support the forum. Only Keith can decide on what a fee should be, but whatever it is the process must not dissuade visitors ... who are prospective members. Membership is important to grow or sustain this forum (and we all want that).

4. My suggestion is a trial period for new members, and a set fee for existing members. Keep this reasonable. One wants to retain members, not force them away.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

Guys, maybe I'm old fashioned, but in the world where it will be hard to attract new members in the new pay to play regime, might not be the best idea to chase away current members with "what have you done for me lately" posts. I think they call this throwing gasoline on the fire.

Point taken Pete. :o Post deleted. Didn't mean to be an "anatomical part".
Thanks man.
Fred

[Kurt Cady]

Based on the responses from ownership, maybe SMC needs to be sold while it is still worth something

[Warren Mickley]

There are a lot of blowhards on any forum. There is no virtue in making thousands of posts. We should be celebrating those who show restraint in their posts, rather than those with verbal diarrhea.

[Frederick Skelly]

There are a lot of blowhards on any forum. There is no virtue in making thousands of posts. We should be celebrating those who show restraint in their posts, rather than those with verbal diarrhea.

Thanks Warren.

[Jerry Olexa]

This is not meant to be critical or sarcastic but I find in life, there are generally two types of people: "givers" and "takers"...
This thread has provided more evidence of these differences.... Oh well.

[Edwin Santos]

If this forum were really a business, then I wish someone in a leadership position would just make a decision and get on with it. Even the wrong decision would probably be better than death by a thousand cuts.

Lots of valid points notwithstanding, discussions like this thread make it seem less like a business and more like a homeowner's association.
Nobody seems to leave HOA meetings happy.

If the status quo is not an option, then make the best decision you can, throw a stake in the ground and let's see what happens. Might be pleasantly surprised.

Edwin

[Simon MacGowen]

There are a lot of blowhards on any forum. There is no virtue in making thousands of posts. We should be celebrating those who show restraint in their posts, rather than those with verbal diarrhea.

May be that is the difference between having something to say, and having to say something. Almost all sharpening threads fall into the latter category, no matter how they end.

Simon

[Thomas Crawford]

So I dropped down to the bottom of this thread looking for a pop wood update...and it looks like SMC also has issues.

As someone that has mostly lurked for 10 years I'd be happy to chip in something but never really knew if it was needed or what it got you, etc. I think some clear communication on that would help. An email to all registered users would be fine, I can't remember ever getting emails before so wouldn't feel like spam.

I will say its worth comparing to mobile app economics. Most of those have gone to a voluntary subscription model (the developer of Overcast has written/talked extensively about this). Locking out non-paying users would almost certainly kill this forum. Just make a tiered voluntary scale and be up-front about how many people you need in each tier to keep the doors open.

[Lee Schierer]

As someone that has mostly lurked for 10 years I'd be happy to chip in something but never really knew if it was needed or what it got you, etc.

Basically for years SMC was supported by advertisement revenue. Adblockers have put an end to that source of income. Note: My ads are turned on and I contribute for more than one user.

What do you get: For a mere $6.00 per year (50 cents per month) every member can insure that SMC is here to lurk or contribute via posts for the future. If SMC doesn't save you at least $6 on a project, save $6 worth of time, prevent $6 worth of injury or provide $6 of entertainment per year, then don't contribute. Most folks spend at least $6 a week for snacks or refreshment of some sort.

[Stewie Simpson]

What you don't do is treat the membership like mushrooms.

Of the 116,124 registered members, under 1.2% are financial contributors.

reference post #54; https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272853-What-is-a-subscriber-based-forum/page4

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Stewie,

No company, including SMC, has an obligation to show you it's financial statements. That is not treating membership like mushrooms. That is just common business practices. Your contribution is nothing different than purchasing a subscription to a magazine. The publishing company has no obligation to show you their financial statements.

Here is my understanding. The amount of revenue being generated by paid advertising is decreasing to the point where SMC may not be able to stay afloat in the future. Keith is considering going to a "pay-to-play" format. The Creek may get smaller and if it does? Keith might be able to reduce the costs of the bandwidth needed to support the Creek's data flow.

I know one thing. Continued caustic attacks and demands on Keith could make him decide it's not worth the personal grief and effort. He might just let it dry up.

[Ray Newman]

"I know one thing. Continued caustic attacks and demands on Keith could make him decide it's not worth the personal grief and effort. He might just let it dry up."
--Ken Fitzgerald

BINGO!

[James Pallas]

"I know one thing. Continued caustic attacks and demands on Keith could make him decide it's not worth the personal grief and effort. He might just let it dry up."
--Ken Fitzgerald

BINGO!

i agree. Remember I said Time, Money, Aggravation. All this stuff just feeds the aggravation and that one is the most lethal of the three.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Until one learns to delegate the aggravation parts....so it stops before the Boss sees any of it....including "Nasty-grams"....let the mods take control of the aggravation part....

[Lisa Starr]

Yep. Before all this came up, I became a contributor. If you don't feel full, unfettered access to this group of forums is worth $6.00/year, fine. If that describes you, quietly go away rather than stirring the pot. Allow those of us that value the service Keith and the moderators are providing to keep this valuable website.

[Tony Zaffuto]

It's Keith's site and his to do with, as he sees fit-we're his guests, and he's been pretty nice, though so much of the time he's so busy hosting us, he doesn't have time to join in the conversations.

If he wants us to continue visiting forever, drinking all his beer, great for us. But he's tired of some being ingrates and wants us to bring a six pack to the party at least once a year!

[Bruce Page]

It's Keith's site and his to do with, as he sees fit-we're his guests, and he's been pretty nice, though so much of the time he's so busy hosting us, he doesn't have time to join in the conversations.

If he wants us to continue visiting forever, drinking all his beer, great for us. But he's tired of some being ingrates and wants us to bring a six pack to the party at least once a year!

I like that analogy. I have always considered myself a guest in Keith’s home.

[Eric Danstrom]

Thank you to everyone that makes this site work. And for those that claim there will never be a new member much less a paying one, I'm proof you're wrong. I signed up and paid before my first post today (this is my first post). Sheesh, $10 and I'm on the good side, that wasn't hard. And now I get to see the pictures! (I've been lurking for the last couple years).

On to the important stuff, such as sharpening and proper steel alloys!

[Bill Houghton]

I've been dismayed by the anger, invective, resentment, and pure negativity of some of the posts in this discussion. When the membership gate goes up, I probably won't join/contribute, but not because I don't appreciate the good value of the conversations here. My income is limited, and my "available" money tends to head toward the local food bank and some of the social action groups we support (which I will not name, so as not to bring politics into the mix). Well, and, yeah, some of it somehow winds up staying behind if I go to an estate sale with interesting tools (insert slightly embarrassed smiley face).

But, to the negative folks: a lot of work has gone into creating this forum, and a lot of people have contributed their money and their time to helping people who are learning how to work wood and celebrating people who are making good stuff from wood. If parts of it don't work for you, you can surely wander around on the internet and find somewhere that does. But don't trash this place or the people who make it work. Add some positive value to the world today instead.

[Keith Outten]

In 2005 we were in the same spot we are today, for a different reason but the situation was critical all the same. In 2008 we suffered once again when the economy took a terrible turn and we lost almost all of our advertisers. For the record the situation we find ourselves in right now is serious. Our banner advertising views have dropped from 17 million per month to just 44,000 and this is a trend that will never be correct itself. There is no going back, we have to make another adjustment to remain online.

We have survived and I expect we will continue to remain online, in some capacity, no matter what adjustments we have to make to deal with our current problems. A large number of people will step up and help us to move forward, they always have. Some will leave and come back later when all our problems have been resolved and some will never return.

Such Is Life

[Glen Pfeiffer]

I’ve been lurking for a couple years and I’ve never seen anything saying that the site needed financial support.

You can blame that on me if you’d like, but my browsing habits here haven’t led me to see anything about it. It wasn’t until I read this thread about PW.

I strongly support the idea to try another solution before making it a paid only site.

- You could do fundraising drives like Wikipedia does.
- You could put a banner at the top of the site for every user who has not contributed.
- You could limit non-supporting users to a certain number of visits per month.
- You could pop up a message for any user using ad-blocking and tell them they need to whitelist this site to participate.

If any of those were in place, I certainly would have known that the site needed financial support, and would have been forced to ask myself the question “Do I want to help keep this great community up and running?”

[Jim Koepke]

I’ve been lurking for a couple years and I’ve never seen anything saying that the site needed financial support.

You can blame that on me if you’d like, but my browsing habits here haven’t led me to see anything about it. It wasn’t until I read this thread about PW.

I strongly support the idea to try another solution before making it a paid only site.

- You could do fundraising drives like Wikipedia does.
- You could put a banner at the top of the site for every user who has not contributed.
- You could limit non-supporting users to a certain number of visits per month.
- You could pop up a message for any user using ad-blocking and tell them they need to whitelist this site to participate.

If any of those were in place, I certainly would have known that the site needed financial support, and would have been forced to ask myself the question “Do I want to help keep this great community up and running?”

Howdy Glen and welcome to the Creek.

These are all good ideas, but one problem is finding someone to program them into the system or finding hosting software with these functions included.

It may be the future of publication where advertisers can include a years subscription with any purchase of a predetermined amount.

To bad we still have to wait for the future. :confused:

jtk

- Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation. --Edward Murrow

[Keith Outten]

Through the years we have tried about everything you can imagine to convince people to donate. We have sponsored over $44,000 in FreeStuff Drawings for Contributors, had fund drives during the month of November for a few years, and a long list of other things that were unsuccessful. The only constant is the response we received when we asked why people won't donate was "why should I donate when everything is free".

I am out of options and patience trying to convince people that The Creek is worth 50 cents per month.

[John Goodrich]

This thread has stretched on for nearly two months. Don't you think it is about time to make the change and move on?

[Glen Pfeiffer]

Howdy Glen and welcome to the Creek.

These are all good ideas, but one problem is finding someone to program them into the system or finding hosting software with these functions included.


Thanks Jim! I love this community, even though I've only been lurking; I just don't participate online anymore - not like when I was in my 20's and 30's.

If there is interest in doing some things that require programming, I might be able to donate a few hours to help. I don't have many to spare, but I do think this community is worth helping.

[Glen Pfeiffer]

Through the years we have tried about everything you can imagine to convince people to donate. We have sponsored over $44,000 in FreeStuff Drawings for Contributors, had fund drives during the month of November for a few years, and a long list of other things that were unsuccessful. The only constant is the response we received when we asked why people won't donate was "why should I donate when everything is free".

I am out of options and patience trying to convince people that The Creek is worth 50 cents per month.

Hi Keith. Thanks for all the work you put into keeping this site running. I certainly feel that it's worth paying for - and if you do make it a paid membership only, I WILL continue to support the site as long as it continues to be the great place it is now.

[Mike Lemon]

Through the years we have tried about everything ... and a long list of other things that were unsuccessful.

Have they been posted on all the forums? I have checked the 'Neanderthal Haven' every day for a few years and have never seen anything listed (the announcements section is basically treated like ads that are skipped over), never check any other forum.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Here's the way I'm looking at this situation: this thread has had over 24,000 views. Allowing for multiple views by visitors, let's say there are only 10% of the 24,000 views as unique. If each of those would kick in $6.00, that's over $14,000.00. Granted that may not be enough for a permanent save, but may be a temporary lifeline. So......how about it?

I wouldn't blame Keith if he would shutter this site without warning. I own a manufacturing business, and if a part, or parts I make were losing money, I would either raise the price, or curtail their manufacture. There ain't a free ride.