MAN rated?

[Martin Wasner]

What does this mean? Been doing this twenty years, never heard the term outside of here.

[Bruce Page]

A little more context to your question would help.
In the aerospace world Man Rated means a flight vehicle that is certified to safely transport people. Obviously the term comes from a different era.

[Bill Dufour]

Much lifting equipment is not rated for hoisting people even if labeled for "live load".
Bill D

[Martin Wasner]

A little more context to your question would help.
In the aerospace world Man Rated means a flight vehicle that is certified to safely transport people. Obviously the term comes from a different era.

Cutters.
Extra characters

[Dan Friedrichs]

Cutters that can be hand fed (not requiring power feed).

See for example: http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Rebate-cutters/Spiral-Falzkopf-WPL-HW.html
If you zoom in, you can see where it says "MAN"

[brent stanley]

What does this mean? Been doing this twenty years, never heard the term outside of here.

Hi Martin, it's a designation used in many European countries for cutting tools that means it has met many safety requirements and criteria and is therefore suitable for manually operated machines which includes shapers and such with powerfeeders. There's lots to it, but the big thing is that it's "chip limiting" and can therefore only take a finite "bite" for every rotation. The bite is more than enough for normal milling operations, but if it's overfed it's less likely to kick back, and if it does kick back it's going to be less violent. Also, if you get your hand in there, it won't auto feed your hand giving you a chance to pull it out. Makes the difference between hamburger hand and some big bandaid.

I have tons of MAN rated tooling for heavy mill work, to cabinet work, passage and cabinet door making etc if you want to see some pics.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

It’s a German tool safety standard used in the EU.
Stark has a easy to understand explanation in their catalogue.
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402903

Here is is a MAN rated tenon head. Sleeve is opened up as I had the top disk out using it for a deep chamfer on a panel. Not how it normally looks.
402904
And here are some MEC rated tenon disks for a auto feed tenoner.Hard to tell the difference between MEC and MAN without measuring cutter projection. The black ones are 15 years old and a little earlier system of insert tooling.

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[Jared Sankovich]

The tooling equivalent of mitre vs miter...

[Martin Wasner]

I kind of figured it was meaningless, just a few people on here use the term every time shaper cutters are brought up.

[brent stanley]

I kind of figured it was meaningless, just a few people on here use the term every time shaper cutters are brought up.

It's really just an EU tooling safety standard adopted by Germany, UK Belgium etc. It's pretty darn subtle for some tooling and correspondingly less significant you'd have to assume, but lots of stuff that used to be in service over there was pretty wild. Here are some examples of kit that is a little further on the other end! http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/tooling.htm

I worked with a tooling engineer to have some custom shaper tooling made for me in the EU and when you mine your way down into it all, it'll make your head spin but it's all required now for a lot of shops in the EU. You can get MAN rated corrugated too!

This is pretty thorough: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

B

[Andrew Seemann]

Based on the terms "MAN" and "MEC" referenced in the attachement from Joe's posting, I'm going to wildly guess that they refer to MANually fed or MEChanically fed. Interesting that the Germans would use English words to designate the standard, but English is the linga franca of Europe.

[andrew whicker]

haha, that square cutter head is intimidating.

[brent stanley]

haha, that square cutter head is intimidating.


Slightly terrifying isn't it? However this beast (when the knives are ground properly!) is MAN rated and it's slightly intimidating when you first turn it on! Note that there are just blanks in there now and they're not in properly or ground.....I just put them in there when I first got it to snap a pic. The two heads above it are MAN rated panel raisers that friends bought in a big group order we did.

B

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[andrew whicker]

You use that without power feed??

[Darcy Warner]

Makes no sense to me, but I am really not trying to figure it out, mostly because I don't care.

I still run square heads on a couple machines, because of the tooling I need was already with it.

I even have some triangle heads.

[brent stanley]

You use that without power feed??

Not willingly! :) When properly ground there's way less feed resistance than you'd think. The panel raisers are so easy to use with a power feeder I always do, but often do test set-ups by hand if the head is under the stock. They're reversible so my small machine runs it over top of the stock, the big machine underneath and I'll manually feed on that one. This sucker is MAN rated too. :)
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[andrew whicker]

Yeah, it looks intimidating, but I guess light passes are light passes. A jointer is manual.

[Rod Sheridan]

I kind of figured it was meaningless, just a few people on here use the term every time shaper cutters are brought up.

It's not meaningless at all Martin.

MAN rated tooling has far lower risk of kickback and less energy in the rare instances that a kickback occurs.

Required by law in many countries, as an employer it would be prudent to purchase that type of tooling, if it's available in the cutter types required.

Nothing sounds so patently inadequate as the words " I knew there was a safer method of doing this, however I chose not to" when uttered under oath in court or during an incident investigation....regards, Rod

[Jared Sankovich]

It's not meaningless at all Martin.

MAN rated tooling has far lower risk of kickback and less energy in the rare instances that a kickback occurs.

Required by law in many countries, as an employer it would be prudent to purchase that type of tooling, if it's available in the cutter types required.

Nothing sounds so patently inadequate as the words " I knew there was a safer method of doing this, however I chose not to" when uttered under oath in court or during an incident investigation....regards, Rod

Short of some imported tooling, it's a concept that doesn't exist here in the US.

The one technical college I'm aware of here that actually trains students to go out and work in production shops (Cabinetmaking and Wood Technology associates degree) teaches how to use and setup lockedge knives as part of the curriculum.

I could be wrong, but if you called up one of the domestic tooling manufacturers and asked for MAN rated tooling you would get a long silent pause.

[lowell holmes]

Google it. :)

https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+man-rated&oq=manrated+d&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.21655j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Mark Bolton]

What does this mean? Been doing this twenty years, never heard the term outside of here.

Just admit it dude... your afraid it means your not man enough to run that tool. You have to take an aptitude test to even buy MAN rated tooling..

[Mark Bolton]

Just admit it dude... your afraid it means your not man enough to run that tool. You have to take an aptitude test to even buy MAN rated tooling..

I keep my MAN rated certificate in my office framed right above my desk for all to see.
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[brent stanley]

Short of some imported tooling, it's a concept that doesn't exist here in the US.

The one technical college I'm aware of here that actually trains students to go out and work in production shops (Cabinetmaking and Wood Technology associates degree) teaches how to use and setup lockedge knives as part of the curriculum.

I could be wrong, but if you called up one of the domestic tooling manufacturers and asked for MAN rated tooling you would get a long silent pause.

There are more all the time, but for the most part you're right. CGG Schmitt and Toolstoday sell MAN rated kit, and FS Tools talks about it in their catalogue too and probably others. It's pretty much all I use now and this is what I do for a living.

[Martin Wasner]

It's not meaningless at all Martin.

MAN rated tooling has far lower risk of kickback and less energy in the rare instances that a kickback occurs.

Required by law in many countries, as an employer it would be prudent to purchase that type of tooling, if it's available in the cutter types required.

Nothing sounds so patently inadequate as the words " I knew there was a safer method of doing this, however I chose not to" when uttered under oath in court or during an incident investigation....regards, Rod

Try not to get too righteous and carried away. Most professional cabinet makers would very much like to work in a shop like mine. The space, the equipment, and the tooling are far from sub par and it's a far better environment for quality, productivity, health, and safety than ANY place I have been employed. It's an oddity.

It's not a term I've heard outside of this site. My suspicions were that it's a similar rating like ISO9000 stuff. Pay us a fee, we'll say you're certified, then take your money and use it to legislate the rating into necessity.

I have no qualms about any of the heads I've got not carrying this rating. They're all as idiot proof as they're going to get. I don't run sketchy garbage.

[John Kee]

Well said Martin, doesn't matter what's typed on the cutter or how safe its suppose to be, improper setup and improper use by unskilled/untrained operators will come back to bite you, literally. Darwin always wins.

[Wayne Lomman]

I learnt how to use a spindle moulder using slotted collars and hand ground knives. The on/off switch was at floor level. This was so you could
duck below the level of the table to start the machine in case the knives flew out or hit the deck and shut it down if they went into orbit (as if your reflexes could actually save you anyway). They were held in place solely by the compression force of the spindle nut. Every workshop had shrapnel holes in the wall somewhere with the story to go with it. Fortunately, these have gone and been replaced with better technology and I survived mostly intact. Some of my colleagues did not. There is simply no excuse for not adopting better technology and safer machining practices. Flirt with danger all we want in our own lives, but don't try to normalise it publicly. Cheers
duck below the http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i448/meccyclinguk/Curved%20window/PICT5869.jpg

[Mel Fulks]

Wayne, I used those for many years. I'm scared of them only when when nuts are allowed to use them . Biggest two
problems are useing two knives from different bars of steel ( sizes are just nominal) and constant regrinding of profiles
to save steel or inability to see how the job can be done with existing profiles.

[Jared Sankovich]

This is going to turn into another table saw guard / UK Dado set thread..

But..

You can still buy bevel edge or lock edge steel here and use it, in newly (at least the lock edge) manufactured collars.

Current technical curriculum at the college level

https://youtu.be/lXUxNKtKUWE

[Martin Wasner]

I learnt how to use a spindle moulder using slotted collars and hand ground knives. The on/off switch was at floor level. This was so you could
duck below the level of the table to start the machine in case the knives flew out or hit the deck and shut it down if they went into orbit (as if your reflexes could actually save you anyway). They were held in place solely by the compression force of the spindle nut. Every workshop had shrapnel holes in the wall somewhere with the story to go with it. Fortunately, these have gone and been replaced with better technology and I survived mostly intact. Some of my colleagues did not. There is simply no excuse for not adopting better technology and safer machining practices. Flirt with danger all we want in our own lives, but don't try to normalise it publicly. Cheers
duck below the http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i448/meccyclinguk/Curved%20window/PICT5869.jpg

Uh huh..... If you can't see danger close on that little engineering marvel, you need to MAN up and give some money to Felder.

[brent stanley]

Yeah, it looks intimidating, but I guess light passes are light passes. A jointer is manual.

The regs actually cover jointer heads too believe it or not! They need to be chip limiting too with things like the Tersa head and others.

B

[Dan Friedrichs]

There is simply no excuse for not adopting better technology and safer machining practices. Flirt with danger all we want in our own lives, but don't try to normalise it publicly.


Wayne, that was extremely well-said.

[Mel Fulks]

The slotted collars are probably not even made anymore. Twenty years ago there were only two makers. But I don't see
anything inherently more dangerous about them. A lot of shop owners are just not up to enforcing rules. Few fingers are lost to flying knives compared to the number just thrust into them by the wounded.

[Warren Lake]

two makers and one stopped long ago. Had to convince him to talk to me, likely law suits and bad memories. Once he knew we learned on them he talked for an hour and sent me the original engineered drawing for the adjusting screw.

Schmidt still sells them and were one of the two makers Wisconsin the other. I dont call them lock edge but serrated. Safest when the steel is cut full length of the slot. Lots of people used to cut the steel half way or a bit more. The longer the knife is in the slot the less centrifugal force there is on it. 3,500 Max RPM

[Rod Sheridan]

Well said Martin, doesn't matter what's typed on the cutter or how safe its suppose to be, improper setup and improper use by unskilled/untrained operators will come back to bite you, literally. Darwin always wins.

That's true John, however even the best training and experience can be improved by using safer methods. There's a reason we do research.............Regards, Rod.

[Wayne Lomman]

I don't think you guys quite get the difference. The cutter blocks I showed are NOT lock edge or serrated or anything. The collars are not clamped independently of the spindle nut. It is just two pieces of square edged tool steel in plain slots clamped by the spindle nut. Torque the nut a fraction not enough, get sawdust under one cutter etc and you could be shaking hands with your preferred deity. Serrated edges were something I must have skipped because we dumped the slotted collars and went straight to chip limited solid cutters. Set up time dropped, cut quality went up and so did productivity.

Finally, I know I have said this before but I really don't actually care what everyone does in their own workshops with regard to safety. That is your choice. However, be responsible in what is advocated as best practice. Safety is not a test of personal worth. As someone earlier in this thread, 'MAN' in this context is short for 'MANUAL FEED'. Cheers

[brent stanley]

That's true John, however even the best training and experience can be improved by using safer methods. There's a reason we do research.............Regards, Rod.

Also, if unskilled operators unfortunately get bitten, at least the bite will be less significant with MAN rated tooling........of course MAN rated tooling works best when used in tandem with full training.

[John Kee]

That's true John, however even the best training and experience can be improved by using safer methods. There's a reason we do research.............Regards, Rod.

And your point is? The research has been done and the next level of safer methods involves the complete removal of the human element in the operation. That's already here. Robots and CNC. The current tooling is not the problem and there is enough safety equipment and procedures in place to protect anyone with a brain and the many without. This mostly because of the nanny state we live in and the fact that most don't take responsibility for their actions. It comes down to you can't fix stupid.

[brent stanley]

And your point is? The research has been done and the next level of safer methods involves the complete removal of the human element in the operation. That's already here. Robots and CNC. The current tooling is not the problem and there is enough safety equipment and procedures in place to protect anyone with a brain and the many without. This mostly because of the nanny state we live in and the fact that most don't take responsibility for their actions. It comes down to you can't fix stupid.

When you receive training in Europe it often includes all kinds of gory images when they discuss safety and let me assure you....you still want to take full responsibility for your actions even with MAN rated tooling. The damage done to you is greatly reduced and can mean the difference between a couple of weeks of unpleasantness and a lifetime of deformity, but MAN rated tooling does not absolve you of personal responsibility that's for darn sure.

[brent stanley]

....snip...Serrated edges were something I must have skipped because we dumped the slotted collars and went straight to chip limited solid cutters. Set up time dropped, cut quality went up and so did productivity. snip


That's interesting Wayne because I've heard the same thing. Talking with shop owners around Europe I find that some of them admit they were all worked up about it in the beginning, but 5 years later were wondering what the fuss was about. Everyone had to do it so there was tons of competition in the tooling market and prices benefited from that. Costs of limiter knives was offset by increases in productivity and insurance premiums benefitted too.

[David Kumm]

A MEC vs MAN tooling discussion ( at least as it relates to hobby guys ) should also include picking tooling that is appropriate for the machine. I've seen a lot of threads talking about 1.25" tooling on light duty machines with small quills and bearings or hollow draw bar spindles. A Hammer machine can't use all the tooling a 700 can and a 700 can't use all the tooling a 900 can, etc. Just because tooling has a certain rating doesn't make it appropriate for the machine. I started out running light shapers with tooling that now scares the crap out of me. When I decided I should learn more about how machines are built, it changed how I work and the tooling and machines I use. Commercial applications are different, but as a hobbiest, I've not hand fed a shaper in years other than a couple of test inches during set up. Dave

[brent stanley]

A MEC vs MAN tooling discussion ( at least as it relates to hobby guys ) should also include picking tooling that is appropriate for the machine. I've seen a lot of threads talking about 1.25" tooling on light duty machines with small quills and bearings or hollow draw bar spindles. A Hammer machine can't use all the tooling a 700 can and a 700 can't use all the tooling a 900 can, etc. Just because tooling has a certain rating doesn't make it appropriate for the machine. I started out running light shapers with tooling that now scares the crap out of me. When I decided I should learn more about how machines are built, it changed how I work and the tooling and machines I use. Commercial applications are different, but as a hobbiest, I've not hand fed a shaper in years other than a couple of test inches during set up. Dave


Exactly! Excellent point. It's very difficult to know from the outside what can be run and what can't if you don't know the build of the machine, or even how to interpret the build of the machine.....if the machine has recommendations it's not always complete or up-to-date with modern tooling. If you run tooling that's too big and all that happens is you ruin bearings quickly, that's not the worst that can happen.

[John Kee]

When you receive training in Europe it often includes all kinds of gory images when they discuss safety and let me assure you....you still want to take full responsibility for your actions even with MAN rated tooling. The damage done to you is greatly reduced and can mean the difference between a couple of weeks of unpleasantness and a lifetime of deformity, but MAN rated tooling does not absolve you of personal responsibility that's for darn sure.

When did you receive your training in Europe and have you received any training in the USA or Canada? Just curious how our training compares to theirs with your references to European standards and training?

[brent stanley]

When did you receive your training in Europe and have you received any training in the USA or Canada? Just curious how our training compares to theirs with your references to European standards and training?

I would be interesting to compare side by side, but I only have one set of college course material from when I went to England a while ago and it's hard copy. I would ask Rod Sheridan. He prepared course material for/with Felder in Canada and probably has a more complete cross section of offerings.

[Mel Fulks]

Wayne, I've used both types and prefer the smooth ones as they are more versatile in regard to where the bearing
is. The steel in the collars is soft and easily damaged ,I guess that gives them a little spring. Biggest problem is the unskilled over tighten them and "lose" some hold ....so they compensate by tightening more. The video leaves out an
important step . After the knives are positioned the spindle nut should be tightened with FINGERS . Then the fingers try to move the knives,if they succeed the whole deal is checked to find the flaw. The wrench should never be used unless the
finger tightening makes moving the knives with fingers impossible. Then the wrench is used is used in a manner consistent
with knowing that the steel is soft. Over tightening means some steel is "lost" ,so the unskilled tighten more. The only
problem with collars is allowing the unskilled to use them.

[Martin Wasner]

And your point is? The research has been done and the next level of safer methods involves the complete removal of the human element in the operation. That's already here. Robots and CNC. The current tooling is not the problem and there is enough safety equipment and procedures in place to protect anyone with a brain and the many without. This mostly because of the nanny state we live in and the fact that most don't take responsibility for their actions. It comes down to you can't fix stupid.

It's too expensive to be THAT safe John. The difference between deformity and being uncomfortable for a few weeks starts at about $100k. :D

[Mark Bolton]

It's too expensive to be THAT safe John. The difference between deformity and being uncomfortable for a few weeks starts at about $100k. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqml38fHALo

[John Kee]

MAN that's the way to go MEC all the way. Get out the cheque book, buy a Robot and the machinery in box, hire a geek to play computer games (I mean program what you need) and watch the profits roll in. No monkeys to worry about making excuses for why they're late, then texting on their cell phone while whining the works too hard. Sorry Martin and Mark, I couldn't resist, its Friday afternoon and I see a beer with my name on it. Cheers!

[Mark Bolton]

MAN that's the way to go MEC all the way. Get out the cheque book, buy a Robot and the machinery in box, hire a geek to play computer games (I mean program what you need) and watch the profits roll in. No monkeys to worry about making excuses for why they're late, then texting on their cell phone while whining the works too hard. Sorry Martin and Mark, I couldn't resist, its Friday afternoon and I see a beer with my name on it. Cheers!

Kuka's are sub 10K bare right now. Your seeing them in hobby and design shops more and more. 9 axis forget about 5 axis.. Times are moving fast.

[Mark Bolton]

MAN that's the way to go MEC all the way. Get out the cheque book, buy a Robot and the machinery in box, hire a geek to play computer games (I mean program what you need) and watch the profits roll in. No monkeys to worry about making excuses for why they're late, then texting on their cell phone while whining the works too hard. Sorry Martin and Mark, I couldn't resist, its Friday afternoon and I see a beer with my name on it. Cheers!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIIJME8-au8

[mark mcfarlane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIIJME8-au8

That was particularly fun to watch. I did wonder if the robot really played table tennis so well, or if it was a bit of hollywood magic.

[Brian Holcombe]

He looked a bit like he wasn’t trying, not like he was truly bested. One would think he would have looked pretty sour if he was really beaten by a robot.

[Martin Wasner]

That last one was scary. Elon Musk is right, we should be terrified of AI. Give that thing consciousness and it will murder us all. Probably by the end of the week.

[mreza Salav]

That last one was scary. Elon Musk is right, we should be terrified of AI. Give that thing consciousness and it will murder us all. Probably by the end of the week.

In mental games (poker, chess, go, etc) pretty much most of them they win humans now big time. In physical activities and doing what humans can do they are catching up too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRj34o4hN4I

[David Kumm]

The world per Gene Roddenberry. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

In mental games (poker, chess, go, etc) pretty much most of them they win humans now big time. In physical activities and doing what humans can do they are catching up too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRj34o4hN4I

But they are limited by their programming and not sentient. They aren't writing their own protocols. When? If? that happens, we're cooked.

[mreza Salav]

But they are limited by their programming and not sentient. They aren't writing their own protocols. When? If? that happens, we're cooked.

It has surpassed that point. We don't really know how those programs "work" really. The program itself learns how to behave from repeated try and failure.
Read about the AlphaZero. For instance, by simply telling the rules of the game (chess) it has trained itself in 24 hours to beat any human player. No "play" coded into it.

[Mark Bolton]

It has surpassed that point. We don't really know how those programs "work" really. The program itself learns how to behave from repeated try and failure.
Read about the AlphaZero. For instance, by simply telling the rules of the game (chess) it has trained itself in 24 hours to beat any human player. No "play" coded into it.

Its similar to a Ted talk I recently watched where they fed a learning computer something like the rules and specifications of Indy Car racing and the computer engineered an organic fuselage that was far more advanced than anything to date.

[Mark Bolton]

In mental games (poker, chess, go, etc) pretty much most of them they win humans now big time. In physical activities and doing what humans can do they are catching up too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRj34o4hN4I

As mind blown as I am with the stuff that comes out of Boston Dynamics I really do wonder if they, or some incantation of them, will be our first foray into the world of Cyberdyne Systems. The stuff coming out of that shop is utterly unreal and I can only imagine the stuff we dont get to see.

[Mark Bolton]

That was particularly fun to watch. I did wonder if the robot really played table tennis so well, or if it was a bit of hollywood magic.

I myself found the term "truth in advertising" popping into my head but I would imagine the company is not too interested in falsely advertising itself.

[Martin Wasner]

Sometimes I wish I didn't approach cabinetry the way I did. With sheet stock, a lights out operation is completely possible right now. All you need is humans to pull maintenance and keep supplies in the stream. The technology to read grain and color then defect accordingly is probably there, but the industry doesn't have enough money in it to ever make it pay. Yet.

[Martin Wasner]

It has surpassed that point. We don't really know how those programs "work" really. The program itself learns how to behave from repeated try and failure.
Read about the AlphaZero. For instance, by simply telling the rules of the game (chess) it has trained itself in 24 hours to beat any human player. No "play" coded into it.

I'll have to give it a look.

[Mark Bolton]

Sometimes I wish I didn't approach cabinetry the way I did. With sheet stock, a lights out operation is completely possible right now. All you need is humans to pull maintenance and keep supplies in the stream. The technology to read grain and color then defect accordingly is probably there, but the industry doesn't have enough money in it to ever make it pay. Yet.

The industry thats feeding the masses has setup the offerings to where there is no reading the grain and color. Thats taken care of with toners and glazes. The jobs we do now can be somewhat painful in that way because what the customers see are even grained, mono-toned, all look the same, and your forced to match that. I am spraying toners and adding dyes to clears more than ever to even out the colors. And you see why its done because it makes you lazy and makes it easier. You can bury some bad color, things that look like they will never fly when the stain went on look great after a couple coats out of the booth.

Im sure there will always be some demand for the old, bespoke, unique, stuff that is not worth the time for the big shops or the customer just wants something thats not from a big shop.

The pinging on the radar for me now is that even out into the markets that have traditionally kept the detailed custom shops alive, they are seeming to care less and less, coupled with ever more varied offerings from the factory shops (rift veneers, laminates, on and on). Add in that cabs are now like an outfit that you change and oy vey.

[mreza Salav]

We build a few houses a year. Found a local manufacturer of doors and boxes. About 10 years ago the owner changed all the tools. Its a fully automated factory with 4-5 machines each with six figure price tags some above 300k. His employees are basics and just about minimum wage i guess. I asked how he maintains the machines if needs service. He flys in technican from germany.

[Chuck Nickerson]

In the table tennis video there's so much artificial camera work they must be really shifting the apparent result.
It's like watching the chase sequence in a movie where the camera angle changes every three seconds. There is a reason...