adjustable groovers for shapers-which ones ?

[Mike Kees]

What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.

[brent stanley]

What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.

Hi Mike, one thing to consider is whether or not the diameter matters to you. Sometimes tooling can be stacked to work well together if the diameters are complimentary. Most manufacturers use common sizes for inserts, but I just buy a few extras with the initial purchase and haven't run out yet because they last so long!

I think with all manufacturers, the smallest (4-7.5mm range) is the most expensive and when I did my comparison shopping a couple of years ago it was in the 8 - 24mm range and comparing Rangate to Felder to Amana to Whitehill, Whitehill was the least expensive, and sometimes by a large margin. They are industrial grade kit, but I think the difference is that they're available direct from the manufacturer where the others don't make all their tooling and/or sell through retailers over here. Also in the case of Whitehill, there are no duties into Canada, not sure about the others but it could be the same. Here's their selection: http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=103 I have the 15 - 29mm if you have any questions.

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[Mike Kees]

Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?

[brent stanley]

Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?

I would keep any groovers you get the same size for sure. Gives you another tenoning option. The prices are in British Pounds but I would check to verify that the carbide tips are universal, I'm not sure because I haven't run out of the handful I bought when I got the groover. I know the straight carbide knives in some of their other heads are, and the little 4-sided spurs are as well, but it's worth verifying. I will PM you the email of the guy I usually talk with over there.

Brent

[brent stanley]

Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?


Whoops, guess I can't!

The main email is here: https://www.whitehill-tools.com/contact-us.php

I just did a quick search and found a couple other folks who sell the same size knife as used in one of their heads, so I expect you have other option for where to get them if you need to replace them.

[brent stanley]

Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?

Hi Mike,they follow me on Instagram so I took a shot and messaged them and they got back to me. The cutters are not unique to their tooling, so you should be able to get replacements over here no prob. They are double ground so have two edges each.

B

[Mike Kees]

Thanks. Now to start comparing pricing .

[brent stanley]

Amana and Whitehill were closest if I remember correctly, but it's tough because there're slight differences. The Amana is a dial style but they can get gummed up.

Amana 8-24mm (2 sets) = $760 USD (https://www.toolstoday.com/insert-adjustable-grooving-cutter-with-scorer-and-ring-nut-8-24mm.html)
Whitehill 8 - 29mm (2 sets) $537 USD (http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=103)

B

[John Kee]

What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.

Mike in my daily experience if your machine will take 180mm cutters try to get 180mm grooving cutters which also double as tenon cutters. Depending on your type of work 3.5mm to 8mm is a necessity based of current panel thicknesses along with anything above 8mm to at least 20mm. Other sizes can easily be added if you find a need. Seeing that you are also in Canada I might suggest Royce-Ayr and FS tool as 2 of the superior tool companies with manufacturing in facilities in our country. I try to keep as much of my money here with Canadian business when I can especially for support when needed.

[brent stanley]

The smaller groover would be very nice, for thinner panels, but they're very expensive.

[Joe Calhoon]

What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.

These are all pretty generic anymore and the straight inserts are universal on all I have seen. The exception might be the 4mm to 7.5 These usually do not take a straight knife but rather a 4 side insert. They look the same from different mfgs but might not be.

There is a difference in quality between the brands I have experienced. With insert tools it’s all about the fixing system. These are patented by the Mfg. Some are better than others. My first insert tools were Felder. These are made by Stark in Italy. You have to be very careful changing inserts on these, it’s easy to get them off at a slight angle. This will show up either with lines in the groove or your shoulders will not align when tenoning. These are workable, you just have to be careful. Most of my groovers are the old Garniga. They are better than Stark for fixing but not the best. I also have a big 250 diameter groover from Zuani and their fixing system is the best of my groovers. Probably some of the best fixing systems in the industry are owned by Leitz and Oertly. I don’t have their groovers but other inserts from them and they are good designs. No experience with the dial type adjusting. I would think the shim system is more repeatable. Make sure you get a wide assortment of shims with the set.

Not all have the pins. I don’t think they are necessary. I do think it best to stay with one mfg. and one diameter. Mine are all 160 with the exception of my Felder small groover that is 180. I would go 180 if doing it over. The 180 might be the max size your shaper fence will take.

I find the most used set I have is the 15 to 30 and the 30 to 60. Depends on your work. If cabinets the 4 to 7.5 would be big. I have additional same diameter cutters I can put between all my Garniga heads to get wider if needed.
I was reminded again this week of how useful these are. We are doing some elliptical and constant radius casing heads on a historic job we have been working on. Normally we finger joint the segments on curve work. These get profiled deeply on the face and thought the finger joints might look odd. I used my Felder 4 to 7.5 to cut a 25 mm deep slot and the 15 to 30 set for the 25mm X4mm tenon that is below the profile. You can see where the larger diameter Felder groover complicates the setup some.
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[Carl Beckett]

For me grooves for thinner panels is a necessity. This means the lower end. I have an Amana 4-15.5 This gets above 1/2" grooves and below 1/4"

[Mike Kees]

Joe thanks so much for the detailed reply. You hit a lot of the things I have been thinking through .It is so hard trying to figure out what tooling to purchase all on your own when you do not have a huge amount of experience with different brands. My shaper tooling collection recently skyrocketed with the purchase of a used shaper. The stuff I got is all quality mid range tooling. What remains to be seen is how much of it will be useful to me. I know that I need an adjustable groover and it will be very useful with the type of work I want to do.Thanks Brent,John and Carl for expanding my base of knowledge and helping me with my endless questions.Mike

[brent stanley]

I"m looking for a smaller set so I was looking at prices.....

Looks like going from 8 - 30mm with the Italian Rangate (Zuani) is just shy of $1000. YEEOWZA!

Royce doesn't post their prices online but I found a quote for 15.5-30mm in the range of $400-$450 and if you assume the same for the 8-15mm we're looking at the better part of $1000 for that range from them too.

Expensive stuff.

B

[Greg Parrish]

If the 228mm fits your shaper and hood, can these work for both saw and shaper purposes?

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Tongue-and-groove-cutters/Adjustable-Dado-Cutter-for-Saw-Unit-RB-HW.html

[brent stanley]

If the 228mm fits your shaper and hood, can these work for both saw and shaper purposes?

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Tongue-and-groove-cutters/Adjustable-Dado-Cutter-for-Saw-Unit-RB-HW.html

You can use some groovers in a saw, just need to verify RPMs, spindle size etc but the larger the diameter your tooling the more demands on you shaper and the more it needs to be dialled in perfectly. 0.001 runout makes a bigger difference on 300mm tooling than it does with 96mm tooling.

B

[John Kee]

Greg people with the 500 series saws are limited too 180mm tooling like in the link. The alternative is to get the Forrest dado set that is already bored to 30mm with pinholes. Both will work in the and the shaper with a 30mm spindle. The unit you linked too will work in the 700 series and shaper with a 30mm spindle and the 240mm hood. The problem with both Felder units is neither will cut a 1/4 slot and both leave bat ears.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Tongue-and-groove-cutters/Adjustable-Dado-Cutter-for-Saw-Unit-RB-HW-oxid.html

https://www.forrestblades.com/dado-king/6-dado-king-saw-blade-set-2-outside-blades-6-chippers-and-blade-runner-carrying-case-clone/

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks John. I thought the 500 and hammer units could use the 200mm blades. Oh well. Regardless, I have that Forest dado blade set new in package. Came with my saw.

Guess the whitehill 160mm sets are a good deal then compared to the Felder prices.


Greg people with the 500 series saws are limited too 180mm tooling like in the link. The alternative is to get the Forrest dado set that is already bored to 30mm with pinholes. Both will work in the and the shaper with a 30mm spindle. The unit you linked too will work in the 700 series and shaper with a 30mm spindle and the 240mm hood. The problem with both Felder units is neither will cut a 1/4 slot and both leave bat ears.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Tongue-and-groove-cutters/Adjustable-Dado-Cutter-for-Saw-Unit-RB-HW-oxid.html

https://www.forrestblades.com/dado-king/6-dado-king-saw-blade-set-2-outside-blades-6-chippers-and-blade-runner-carrying-case-clone/
D

[John Kee]

Greg the Whitehall stuff doesn't come with the pinholes so you can only use it in the shaper. The good thing is that Felder recognizes the fact that using a dado type setup is allowed in other countries and makes tooling and a wide range of accessories to fit their machines. That Forrest dado set you got is quite versatile and has a great cut. A friend loaned me his to test and it produced a better cut in melamine than the Hammer unit I had with no bat ears or chip out. My current dado is a Freud SD508 that I had bored to 30 mm and pinholes added and gives a flawless cut. The shaper rabbit hole is quite deep for hobby people and I always suggest proper training, not the type you get from a YouTube wanna bee.

[brent stanley]

Hi Greg, note that the Forrest Dado stack doesn't always have holes drilled for drive pins like yours does unless you order it as an option. The laws of physics do not know if you have a regular dado stack on the arbor or an adjustable groover without drive holes on the arbor with respect to wanting to spin the nut off. Equal care must be taken in each situation.

I was looking at Radial Arm Saws a little while ago and found a big mainland European manufacturer of RASs that actually ships the Whitehill 300mm adjustable groovers with their RASs. That's a pretty big groover set!

[brent stanley]

Just looked at the Felder set and for 6.3-20mm it's $1060 USD.....YEOWZA!

[Mike Delyster]

The Forrest Dado stack that John posted a link for, does have pinholes for the felder machines.

[John Kee]

Just looked at the Felder set and for 6.3-20mm it's $1060 USD.....YEOWZA!

Since you are so fixated on cutter price what would the equivalent 228mm diameter 6.3 to 12mm and 12 to 20mm with pinholes cost so we can compare apples to apples.

[brent stanley]

The Forrest Dado stack that John posted a link for, does have pinholes for the felder machines.

It's available as an option I see, but the picture on that page doesn't have the pin holes. I edited my post. The point is unless you have aggressive DC injection braking or an aggressively applied manual brake, it's no different than a table saw running a regular dado stack which is done all the time. No question drive pins are better than not and if Greg's unit has braking I would say it's essential.

[brent stanley]

Thanks John. I thought the 500 and hammer units could use the 200mm blades. Oh well. Regardless, I have that Forest dado blade set new in package. Came with my saw.

Guess the whitehill 160mm sets are a good deal then compared to the Felder prices.


D

I guess if you have the Forrest set for the saw you're pretty well set up for dados in the saw then and you're just looking for a set for the spindle. One thing to think about is whether or not the Forrest set is MAN rated and if that is something you're concerned about.

I also wonder about when you split the adjustable groovers to make both cheeks of the tenon at the same time if it retains the MAN rating? Essentially you're spinning two separate incomplete discs, (separated by your tenon thickness) that each have an enormous break in the cutting circle. Will have to wade into the regs to know for sure....

[Rod Sheridan]

I guess if you have the Forrest set for the saw you're pretty well set up for dados in the saw then and you're just looking for a set for the spindle. One thing to think about is whether or not the Forrest set is MAN rated and if that is something you're concerned about.

I also wonder about when you split the adjustable groovers to make both cheeks of the tenon at the same time if it retains the MAN rating? Essentially you're spinning two separate incomplete discs, (separated by your tenon thickness) that each have an enormous break in the cutting circle. Will have to wade into the regs to know for sure....

The set I have maintains the MAN rating when inverted for tenons. There isn't a break in the cutting circle as the 2 pieces are indexed.........Rod.

[brent stanley]

The set I have maintains the MAN rating when inverted for tenons. There isn't a break in the cutting circle as the 2 pieces are indexed.........Rod.

The head would change from a "round form" head to a "non-round-form" head so the maximum allowable projection would change depending on how it's configured. You would have to verify, but I expect it's designed for the 1.1mm projection anyway. There's a LOT more to the regs when you mine down into it all.

[John Kee]

It's available as an option I see, but the picture on that page doesn't have the pin holes. I edited my post. The point is unless you have aggressive DC injection braking or an aggressively applied manual brake, it's no different than a table saw running a regular dado stack which is done all the time. No question drive pins are better than not.

I know a picture is typically worth a thousand words but reading the actual link helps along with fact that Forrest has this set as an orderable piece. For the record Felder saws and shapers come with electronic braking since for some reason you are taking this sideways.

[Rod Sheridan]

The head would change from a "round form" head to a "non-round-form" head so the maximum allowable projection would change depending on how it's configured. You would have to verify, but I expect it's designed for the 1.1mm projection anyway. There's a LOT more to the regs when you mine down into it all.

Brent, the cutter comes from the manufacturer with instructions on how to use it in both configurations, and carries the MAN rating.

The manufacturer took care of all that for me...........Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

It's available as an option I see, but the picture on that page doesn't have the pin holes. I edited my post. The point is unless you have aggressive DC injection braking or an aggressively applied manual brake, it's no different than a table saw running a regular dado stack which is done all the time. No question drive pins are better than not and if Greg's unit has braking I would say it's essential.

Greg's machine is a Felder, it has electronic braking.......Rod

[brent stanley]

Brent, the cutter comes from the manufacturer with instructions on how to use it in both configurations, and carries the MAN rating.

The manufacturer took care of all that for me...........Rod.

Do they supply instructions for using it in a table saw?

I expect they just set the projection to work with both round-form and non-round-form to allow it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Do they supply instructions for using it in a table saw?

I expect they just set the projection to work with both round-form and non-round-form to allow it.

Hi Brent, it doesn't have any instructions for table saw use..............Regards, Rod.

[brent stanley]

Hi Brent, it doesn't have any instructions for table saw use..............Regards, Rod.

What's interesting is they don't advertise on their web sites that their adjustable groovers are suitable for splitting and forming tenons. They have an adjustable slitter they say is suitable for that, and a new adjustable rebate block that is good for that.

[Rod Sheridan]

What's interesting is they don't advertise on their web sites that their adjustable groovers are suitable for splitting and forming tenons. They have an adjustable slitter they say is suitable for that, and a new adjustable rebate block that is good for that.

Yeah, the catalogue is a bit difficult to navigate for some items. This is the one I have.........regards, Rod.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Slot-cutter/Adjustable-Slotting-Cutters-RB-HW.html

[brent stanley]

Yeah, the catalogue is a bit difficult to navigate for some items. This is the one I have.........regards, Rod.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Slot-cutter/Adjustable-Slotting-Cutters-RB-HW.html

Yes, by slitter I mean slotter! :) Terminology eh?

I guess that would mean the adjustable groovers are not suitable for making tenons.

B

[John Kee]

Yes, by slitter I mean slotter! :) Terminology eh?

I guess that would mean the adjustable groovers are not suitable for making tenons.

B

That's an extremely broad statement being completely and entirely determined by what setup you used to cut tenon with an adjustable groover.

[Joe Calhoon]

groovers[/I] are not suitable for making tenons.

B

Why would they not be suitable for tenons? Once again I will ask about your experience with this. Have you used adjustable groovers for tenoning?
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[brent stanley]

That's an extremely broad statement being completely and entirely determined by what setup you used to cut tenon with an adjustable groover.

I'm not talking about all adjustable groovers, I'm just talking about theirs. I am just making an assumption based on the fact that they went out of their way to mention how you COULD use their slotters AND their adjustable rebate block for cutting tenons, and chose NOT to say they about their adjustable groovers. It could be an oversight, I don't know, but there could be some aspect of the design that doesn't permit it. The pictures are limited and I only held a Stark groover in my hands once years ago, and I wasn't looking for that. I am looking for another adjustable groover, so it would be nice if someone from Felder or Stark could verify.....maybe Rod will check for us from the inside.

[brent stanley]

Why would they not be suitable for tenons? Once again I will ask about your experience with this. Have you used adjustable groovers for tenoning?
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I'm just trying to figure it out for myself Joe, I have no idea. I just know that on their US and UK web sites they don't mention tenoning with their adjustable groovers. They DO mention it with their "slotters" and their adjustable rebate block. I'm just trying to figure out if that's an oversight or if there's a reason. If I held them in my hands I might be able to figure it out, but I just have their fuzzy web site pictures to go by.

[brent stanley]

Why would they not be suitable for tenons? Once again I will ask about your experience with this. Have you used adjustable groovers for tenoning?
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I have used adjustable groovers for tenoning, but for clarity what we were talking about was splitting the adjustable groover for tenoning, and no I haven't done that. I essentially just used it as a rebate block when I discovered that my rebate blocks were both at my other shop. Saved me a trip!

[Joe Calhoon]

That’s what I thought, no experience...

[brent stanley]

That’s what I thought, no experience...

I used tenon discs instead.

My objective for that job was a centred tenon and flipping to do one side each provided that.

If you look at the context of the conversation, I wasn't referring to all manufacturers of all adjustable groovers.....it was the Felder ones. For some reason they sell a whole separate product that makes grooves but ALSO is advertised as making tenons. These are the ones Rod has......I'm just wondering why. It's a legitimate question that may have a good reason, or it may just be an oversight from their web developers.....who knows.

[Mike Kees]

Rod or Joe when you divide the halves of your groover and invert to do tenons ,what do you use to space them ? Is it the shims only or have you ever used the spacer collars from your shaper spindle. I was looking at mine today in the shop and I have 5,10 and 20 mm right there. Could they be used in this way ?

[brent stanley]

Rod when you divide the halves of your groover and invert to do tenons ,what do you use to space them ? Is it the shims only or have you ever used the spacer collars from your shaper spindle. I was looking at mine today in the shop and I have 5,10 and 20 mm right there. Could they be used in this way ?

He doesn't have one of their groovers, he has on of their slotters which is a different set of tooling and is build differently if you look at the pictures. I have a call into Felder to see if their tooling set they call their "groovers" can also be used this way. I talked to another manufacturer and they confirmed that their adjustable groovers cannot be used for forming tenons so I guess it pays to check! Terminology can be the death of us! :) The ability to use them as tenoners is a huge selling point.

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[Joe Calhoon]

Rod or Joe when you divide the halves of your groover and invert to do tenons ,what do you use to space them ? Is it the shims only or have you ever used the spacer collars from your shaper spindle. I was looking at mine today in the shop and I have 5,10 and 20 mm right there. Could they be used in this way ?

Mike,
Nothing wrong with using the shaper spacers but you really need a assortment of shims to fine tune. Normally you get 0.1 mm, 0.3mm, 0.5, 1mm then even mm up to 20 or 30mm depending on range of adjustment. As you buy tools you will end up with a collection. And you can buy the separate if needed. If you need thinner than 0.1mm to fine tune you can make your own from paper easily.
Here is my spacer drawer with some of the radius and grooving inserts for my Garniga tooling.

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The nice thing about Euro shafts is the spacers are usually 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50mm we use them all the time as spacers.

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I have setup sheets for all my adj groovers showing both grooving and tenoning setups. You can dial in what shims are needed to achieve certain thickness and so on. On the T26 shaper I can set up a groove or tenon accurately without a test cut and repeat settings can be stored in the machine. If you are savvy on a manual machine it is pretty quick also with some setting aids.
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[Rod Sheridan]

Rod or Joe when you divide the halves of your groover and invert to do tenons ,what do you use to space them ? Is it the shims only or have you ever used the spacer collars from your shaper spindle. I was looking at mine today in the shop and I have 5,10 and 20 mm right there. Could they be used in this way ?

Hi Mike, yes I use a spacer and a shim or two as required.

Since I use a hollow chisel Mortimer I have a log for setup that has the spacers and shims listed for the three chisel sizes I use......Rod

[Mike Kees]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

[brent stanley]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

I stick my notebooks to the side of each shaper with a magnet so they're always handy!

It is a pain to not be able to see them in person, and internet pictures don't always give you everything especially if their a little older and the design has changed. Nowadays competition is pretty fierce and they all watch each other so I expect if you get something from a reputable manufacturer you'll be able to produce quality product.....good luck.

B

[John Kee]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

Mike I went down in 2015 and it was a great eye opener, IMHO, going is a must if you're a professional and never been before. Google AWFS exhibitor list and you can see who's going to be there and the surprising number that aren't. Still haven't decided if I'm going.

[brent stanley]

So I had a fun day today installing some crown moulding.....that I milled myself over cabinets I made with all my inexperience.....after walking through a door in a historic designated home that I made with all my inexperience. :D Just having fun with ya!

While I was doing that I talked with Felder but they're going to get back to me after some research, and I also heard back from 4 different manufacturers of adjustable groovers. Two of them said you could invert their tooling for tenons but only very short tenons and one of those said it would compromise the MAN rating. The other two said no....you could not split them and use them for making tenons.

So for the OP, since you're wisely looking at a number of different manufacturers, I think the take-home is exactly what I suspected and have been promoting all along.....if you're thinking about using tooling outside of what the manufacturer says it's designed for, consult the manufacturer. If you're an old veteran expert with lots of experience, you may be able to look at it and know, but if you can't put your hands on it, or don't have that experience....it's not wise to assume because subtle differences in design between manufacturers evidently can make a difference. You could end up getting different than you'd hoped for your money, or in a dangerous situation.

Anyway, I'm not going to stick around for any more attacking or name-calling, but to Mike and Greg, good luck and feel free to email me with any questions about tooling I own....I'm happy to help.

b

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

Mike,
The woodworking shows are a great learning experience especially if you have never been to one. Not so much for the dazzle of new machinery but you get a chance to network with other woodworkers who are trying to solve similar issues to what you face. There are always many tooling companies at these and usually with tools on display.

As I said the adj. groovers are pretty common and you probably would not go wrong with any reputable mfg. As far as tenoning with these I have never had issues with my Garniga smaller disks or the 250mm Zuani disk I use in my sliding saw and also for tenons on the shaper. Main thing is you want to respect the max depth of cut they call out in the drawings. My motive for this tool was to have a groover for the saw and the 250 diameter fits all my shaper fences so I do not have to install the tenon hood to use it. If you are not planning to use the groover in a saw it’s probably cheaper to buy a couple tenon disks to do deeper tenons. The only difference between the adj. groover halves and a tenon disk is the rake they usually put on the tenon disks. I don’t know if you have a Felder saw but the disk Rod has works well in those and on the shaper.
I have a couple MAN tenon disks I will get a picture of tomorrow next to the adj. disk just for comparison.

Here are the factory drawings for the groovers I use.

From European mfgs you will never find much info on how tooling is used because in that market they assume you went through a school to learn this. The cause of much frustration in North America.
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[Mike Kees]

Couple of things.. Joe I would love to be able to buy a groover that I could share with my saw and shaper. Saw is a Felder k700s with a 30mm bore. My shaper is a Minimax T50 with 1 1/4'' spindle. So could I use a bushing on my saw ? I have taken all your advice to heart and will stick with one manufacturer and diameter. Also plan to buy only the groovers that separate and use shims. I also learned from this thread that the sticker on my fence is telling me the max diameter with the main fence installed. I do have a tenoning hood as well.my shaper has a sliding table and tilting spindle as well. Thinking through all the possibilities that these open up boggles my mind. I found a youtube video the other day that showed a Lietz (I think) two piece rebate head ,that would be a handy piece of tooling. You could use it as a standard rebate or cut tenons,etc. I think that I will spend some time figuring out and playing with all the possibilities that this new to me shaper and tooling have. I will Probably wait till Vegas to pull the trigger on a adjustable groover. Mike.

[Joe Calhoon]

Mike, it’s possible to use reduction bushings with adj groovers but it can get complicated and you would need 2 or possibly 3 ranges of size to use the full adjustability of the groover. It also can run the risk of spinning the cutter if everything is not right. Reduction bushes work great for a lot of things but not when you are stacking cutters.

Now when I say same mfg - same diameter only referring to the smaller diameter ones that you might want to mix and match between the sets. The larger disks for tenoning could be different.

[Joe Calhoon]

The 2 piece head you refer to is what some of the Euro mfgs call a multi use head. That is what my Garniga head in one of the cutter drawings I posted is. It is basically a large adj groover range 30 to 60 that can be used inverted for tenons or stacked to make grooves between 30 and 60 or used as a rebate head up to 60 deep. Plus it has adjustable slots to accept radius, chamfer and grooving knives. This and my z4 rebate cutter are my most used cutters.

A lot of cutter choices depend on what you are building. I am architectural millwork, doors and windows. Every job different and I use most of the joinery type tooling a lot. A cabinet or furniture only shop would have a more limited range of what they would use.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mike,

I don’t know if you have a Felder saw but the disk Rod has works well in those and on the shaper.
I have a couple MAN tenon disks I will get a picture of tomorrow next to the adj. disk just for comparison.

Here are the factory drawings for the groovers I use.

From European mfgs you will never find much info on how tooling is used because in that market they assume you went through a school to learn this. The cause of much frustration in North America.

Joe, that last sentence sums it up perfectly, I run into this often, even hobby wood workers in Europe tend to have formal wood working training through night programs at technical institutes.

When you meet and talk to these people, they all have training and experience with modern European machinery, tooling and shop procedures and safety standards. It affects how equipment and tooling manufacturers deal with their customers, as they expect them to have a relatively good understanding of the technical basics.

Joe, you are correct in that I have a couple pieces of tooling I share with the saw and shaper, as I have a 30mm spindle for my shaper........Regards, Rod.

[John Kee]

Mike any chance Minimax has a 30mm spindle available for your shaper. Not familiar with Minimax at all. I have a Felder F700Z with a 30mm, 1 1/4" and a Router spindle. The 30mm was only $350.00 CDN. This allows maximum versatility for most situations IMHO. Also good for using sawblades on your shaper if needed.

[Mike Kees]

John I have not even checked. I need to find out. Mike.

[Greg Parrish]

So I could order a different sized spindle for my Felder KF500 for 1.25” or router bits? I’ve ordered a Whitehill combo block with flush mount capability in 30mm arbor but am curious about the other spindle possibility. Lots of learning curve. LOL

[Rod Sheridan]

So I could order a different sized spindle for my Felder KF500 for 1.25” or router bits? I’ve ordered a Whitehill combo block with flush mount capability in 30mm arbor but am curious about the other spindle possibility. Lots of learning curve. LOL

Hi Greg, if your KF500 has the MF spindle system (new) then it's the short spindle that is interchangeable, and you can have different size spindles. You can verify this if the spindle cap bolt is long and you can lift the approximately 6 inch long interchangeable portion of the spindle out.

If your KF500 has the same Hammer shaper configuration as mine, it's a 1" solid spindle with sleeves to make it 1.25" or optionally 30mm. I have both.


Regards, Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Rod.

Hmmmmm. Now I’m not sure but I pulled the bolt and some of the black spacers and measured the silver spindle getting 1.18” with my calipers which is 30mm. That said, I have no clue which system that means I have since this didn’t come with an original invoice or whatnot and since I bought it used from its second owner that also didn’t know.




Hi Greg, if your KF500 has the MF spindle system (new) then it's the short spindle that is interchangeable, and you can have different size spindles. You can verify this if the spindle cap bolt is long and you can lift the approximately 6 inch long interchangeable portion of the spindle out.

If your KF500 has the same Hammer shaper configuration as mine, it's a 1" solid spindle with sleeves to make it 1.25" or optionally 30mm. I have both.


Regards, Rod.

[John Kee]

Thanks Rod.

Hmmmmm. Now I’m not sure but I pulled the bolt and some of the black spacers and measured the silver spindle getting 1.18” with my calipers which is 30mm. That said, I have no clue which system that means I have since this didn’t come with an original invoice or whatnot and since I bought it used from its second owner that also didn’t know.

I believe I read somewhere you have a 2007 Machine Greg. That would put it in the older category with the 1" main shaft and sleeves not the newer MT design which came out a few years ago. I have a good friend with the same machine. A quick call to Felder would tell you the proper parts that need to be ordered, I'm assuming the 1 1/4" sleeve with spacers, PN 503-172 from an old catalog I have. In 2008 it cost $121.00.

[Greg Parrish]

It is a 2007 machine but the silver shaft measures at 1.18” or 30mm. I hope that is the case as I ordered a 30mm based euroblock. That said, not sure how I could get a 1.18” measurement on my caliper u less it’s a 30mm spindle shaft unless I didn’t measure the right thing.


I believe I read somewhere you have a 2007 Machine Greg. That would put it in the older category with the 1" main shaft and sleeves not the newer MT design which came out a few years ago. I have a good friend with the same machine. A quick call to Felder would tell you the proper parts that need to be ordered, I'm assuming the 1 1/4" sleeve with spacers, PN 503-172 from an old catalog I have. In 2008 it cost $121.00.

[John Kee]

I would assume the you measured the diameter of the spindle with the 30mm sleeve in place. The sleeve should slide off and the main shaft is 1" as per the pic from the Hammer catalog
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[Greg Parrish]

Mine looks different than that but I measured the silver spindle under the black rings.
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[John Kee]

Mine looks different than that but I measured the silver spindle under the black rings.
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Greg perhaps taking a pic with the top cap off and rings removed would help solve your problem. This is my last post in this thread because it has drifted so far off the OP's original question.

[Mike Kees]

Ok so as the OP of this thread I have one final question before we let this thread join the archives..I was wondering what about buying three tenon disks (fixed) in say 8,10,and 12mm then stacking any two disks with spacers and shims and using the third as the mortise thickness. Of course these are all same diameter,say 180mm. Now I would also buy reducing bushings to use these on my sliding saw (30mm). Is this a workable ,usable plan. With one adjustable groover the same diameter you would be able to "groove the world". Am I beginning to think 'shaper' well yet ?

[John Kee]

Mike you would have to have the 2 pinholes added to the shaper cutters/tenoning disks to use on the saw like any saw blade. Aside from that as long as those widths and depth of cut work for for you.

[Martin Wasner]

I agree with bl John. Anytime you can add versatility to a tool for little cost, do it.

[Warren Lake]

not sure im getting the three thing. If you are talking using one of them to make a slot or the groove (its not a mortise), then that one of the three cutters would have to have spurs on both sides the other two only need them on the one side.

[Joe Calhoon]

Ok so as the OP of this thread I have one final question before we let this thread join the archives..I was wondering what about buying three tenon disks (fixed) in say 8,10,and 12mm then stacking any two disks with spacers and shims and using the third as the mortise thickness. Of course these are all same diameter,say 180mm. Now I would also buy reducing bushings to use these on my sliding saw (30mm). Is this a workable ,usable plan. With one adjustable groover the same diameter you would be able to "groove the world". Am I beginning to think 'shaper' well yet ?

Mike, at 180 diameter these would probably be considered groovers. These will have the knickers both sides. You need to see if 180 diameter will raise above your saw table. Not familiar with Felder saws. It is possible to use reduction bushings on the saw if they clear the pin holes. Amana makes a inexpensive 1.25 to 30 mm bushing that is shallow in depth that would probably work on the disks you mention possibly not the 8mm though. The outer flange on these are usually 5 mm thick so you need to take that into consideration when mounting to the saw.
Rod would know if this is workable on the Felder.

I think you are asking if the fixed groovers could be mounted between your adj groovers to get more thickness?
Be careful here. Normally on a 3 piece adj groover the center cutter is designed to nest in between the 2 halves and the shims still workable between all. These center cutters will not have knickers. It is possible to run the fixed groovers without knickers but the whole setup could be messy..

I have have a couple Felder- Stark fixed 12mm groovers. I will take a look Monday to see if those could possibly fit between 2 adj halves. And as John mentions these would have to have pin holes which typically the fixed width groovers do not have.

Versatile tooling is good but you can push the limits to where it is not practical.

[John Kee]

Mike and Joe the 180mm tooling will extend above the table on a 700 series saw enough to do most dados. I used the 180mm Hammer dado set for many years and only sold it to get a superior cut in melamine. The max size Felder has for slot cutters is 300mm and they are mounted like a conventional saw blade. The Felder adjustable dado cutters need to have a spacer removed for their use and have a max width of just over 20mm. The 228mm dado set they offer is actually 2 separate adjustable cutters and offers the deepest groove potential. Also works great for cutting one pass tenons when used on a shaper. For the application Mike is talking about I believe the bushings could be used but offer some spacing/placement issues and like you Joe believe its not the most practical. That's one of the reasons I suggested a 30mm for his shaper if it was available. I don't know anything about SCM/Minimax accessories.

[Mike Kees]

My thinking with the three groover idea was being able to cut tenons and tongue and groove joints in stock ranging from 3/4" to 1 1/2" or so with three "tongue" sizes.Then I thought hey why not be able to use on my t.s. too. Next I got all excited and thought what if I combine an adjustable groover for even more fun.I tried getting on parts pronto to figure out my shaper spindle but it does not come up,where do I go for Minimax parts now ? John that 228 Felder sounds like the best option to use for both machines. I am going to pursue the 30mm spindle and see where that takes me before making any tooling purchases.Joe and john thanks for pointing out what I have not figured out and providing options and advice,much appreciated.

[John Kee]

Mike unfortunately all I can offer is the Canadian website with the contact info.

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_CA/scmwood/company/scm-canada

When I first start my search for info on sliding table saws I tried to make contact with a SCM saleperson. The person showed absolutely no interest in my business after repeated attempts so I went to searching for other suppliers. At a woodworking show 2007 I found Felder and a few others. Felder had an untrained sales team at the time with a new office and very little actual experience but were eager for business. That has changed in recent years as they are all hungry for hobby and one man shops money. Hopefully you will have a better experience than I did. You haven't mentioned the year your T-50 was made so I would suggest a phone call and see if you can find a parts person that can possibly see what's still available for your shaper. The only other avenue is the used market, so contacting one of the resellers might be an option. There is a fellow member, David Kumm has a good knowledge of the used scene might be worth contacting.

[Joe Calhoon]

I dug out some of my groovers yesterday.

I noticed the Felder - Stark ones have pinholes that I assume might fit the saw? The adj one is 180 diameter. Don’t know if the fixed groovers come that size. Those could be a good solution for you if you find a 30 shaft for the shaper.
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Next is is a picture of one of my Garniga sets showing the third element to get more thickness. These have to be specific designed to the groovers and nest in between. These same groovers are used in my profile and square edge house door sets and I can go to 3” thick or more of doors with various panel thickness by adding the middle element and spacers.
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Here are my 250mm adj groovers that I use for tenoning. I have larger 320 disks for this but these fit in my shaper fence for quick setup and I can make quicker adjustments for shim space than the dedicated ones on a sleeve. ( shown in the shop made hood in these pictures) I had Zuani make some custom reduction bushings so I could use a element out of a sleeved set to do double tenons. This could also be accomplished by adding a fixed groover between the halves but I had the other element. Using these stacked sets make incredibly accurate and clean tenons.

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[John Kee]

Joe interesting find on the Stark groovers. If the pinholes have a center to center on approx. 46mm diameter they would fit the saw. They are still shown as viable PN's from the pics in the moulding section of the Felder catalog but it appears the pinholes are not right and could be put there for other applications. If you have a minute a measurement of the center to center distance would be great and remove any doubt. Mike D and I have been considering making a shaper hood for tenoning with larger cutters, I like your simple but effective approach.

[Greg Parrish]

The spindle cap on my Felder has pins at the top. Could be what the pin holes on that slot cutter are for.
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Also, as follow to an earlier discussion, my spindle measure roughly 1.18” which converts to 30mm.
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Joe interesting find on the Stark groovers. If the pinholes have a center to center on approx. 46mm diameter they would fit the saw. They are still shown as viable PN's from the pics in the moulding section of the Felder catalog but it appears the pinholes are not right and could be put there for other applications. If you have a minute a measurement of the center to center distance would be great and remove any doubt. Mike D and I have been considering making a shaper hood for tenoning with larger cutters, I like your simple but effective approach.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Greg, the pins on the spindle cap are to prevent the cap screw from unscrewing itself when the shaper is run in reverse, they are not for the pin holes in tooling.

So you have a 30mm spindle? Does it have the sleeves to increase it to 1.25"?

The 30mm spindle will take the grooving cutter designed for the saw, allowing you to share tooling. I also share saw blades.

The 30mm spindle also takes the Schlefix sanding drum which I use..............Regards, Rod.

[Mike Delyster]

Joe, I like your shop built tenoning hood.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Rod. That makes sense.

I dont believe I have any sleeve(s) to increase size to 1.25”. Not sure if they are available from Felder or not.

Good to know now on the shared tooling. I’m following this thread with regards to an adjustable groover when I get to that point.


Hi Greg, the pins on the spindle cap are to prevent the cap screw from unscrewing itself when the shaper is run in reverse, they are not for the pin holes in tooling.

So you have a 30mm spindle? Does it have the sleeves to increase it to 1.25"?

The 30mm spindle will take the grooving cutter designed for the saw, allowing you to share tooling. I also share saw blades.

The 30mm spindle also takes the Schlefix sanding drum which I use..............Regards, Rod.

[John Kee]

Greg here are some pics of my friends 2007 KF500 spindle setup. Spindle is 1". The 3rd pic is the exchangeable 30mm sleeves. He has both the 30mm sleeves and the 1 1/4" sleeves. Quite possible knowing Felder they had a 30mm only spindle option.


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[Taylor Buckalew]

Hey Mike!
I know I'm a few days late on this, but here's my experience:

I've always used the Amana cutters, primarily the 4.5-7mm dial 160mm (I rotate three of them)
The dial is AMAZING for quick adjustments. On my shapers, I would have to lower the spindle in order to get the blades off to add shims, so adjustments became more difficult using the shim system.
As far as quality, I've run one head for the past five years, a few thousand passes a day, nearly every day, its held up. There is a bit of slack in the cutter slots, so you just need to make sure they're aligned.
For inserts, I use too many to pay $10 an insert through Amana, so I went on Alibaba and bought a few hundred of each piece. They're like 10 cents a piece, its ridiculous. There is a small loss in quality, but you could throw away 98 of them and still be saving money, I've never thrown one away because of quality though. You can also choose different grind angles for the inserts (Amana uses 35 degree, I switched to 30 degree and it's seems to work better.)
Any other questions about the blades, I'm happy to help!