10" vs 12" tablesaw

[David Mueller]

I am about to pull the ol' checkbook and spring for a cabinet saw. I am going round between PM, General or Grizzly. While the price is somewhat secondary, I see that for about the same $$$ I can see a 12" grizzly as a 10" other. Does this seem overkill but then I do have an 18" bandsaw. I just always want to err on the side of too big so as to not limit my possibilities.

[Keith Weber]

Hi David,

Personally, I don't think that I'd ever use the extra one inch of capacity that a 12 inch saw would provide. It's rarely (if ever) that I have the blade on my Grizzly G1023SL all the way up. It kind of scares me with that much blade exposed. Since you already have the large capacity bandsaw, I would personally rather use that to cut very thick pieces of wood. The only area that I can think of right now that the bandsaw wouldn't make up the difference between the 10 and 12 inch tablesaws is in the cutting of very large coves. I've never tried that before. My Grizzly is a very nice saw. I have the 3 hp version. I wouldn't hesitate recommending it to anyone. Good luck with your choice.

Keith

[Bruce Page]

I agree with Keith completely. I’ve only used the total blade height on my Unisaw once and it was a little scary. While I agree with the logic of “bigger is better” I don’t think it applies to 99% of table saw work.

[Mark Singer]

I have a 10" PM 66 and it is a very capable saw. I rarely use the full height of blade. Ther is a 5hp version....but the 3 hp is enough. On bandsaws...there are advantages on bigger...resaw capacity...vibration...features..

[Chris Giles]

David,
As always, it depends on the type of work you are going to be doing on it. I have a 10" cabinet saw and a 12" slider, and I'm surprised how often I have to use every inch of the 12" capacity, whereas I almost never crank the ten inch all the way up. The 12" machine tends to be much beefier construction, and the entire blade is inside of the plexi guard, so using the full 4 1/2" height is no big deal. If I didn't have it, I'd do the cut some other way, but I am glad it is there. The throat limitation on the bandsaw can be a problem when crosscutting. If you can afford it, I'd go 12" without hesitation.

[lou sansone]

I have owned 10" 12" 14" and 16" table saws. They all have good and bad points to them. What I look at in the saw is not the blade diameter but what is turning the blade and the assembly as a whole. I can't stress this enough, find a saw with a true riving knife. I don't care what size blade it is, the riving knife is a real must IMHO. There are a variety of saws that have them. I think without exception all the modern format type sliders have them. I am pretty sure that most of the older iron saws had them ( oliver, tannewitz, northfield ect ). I have been told the new powermatic has it.

The size of the blade sort of depends on what you are planning on cutting. my Rockwell RT-40 can take blades from 12 to 16 inch. I run a 12 and it is fine. My oliver 260 uses twin 16" blades and it also runs fine. I have owned the unisaw size saw and it was a great machine as well. It all depends on what you want to do, how much money you have, how heavy a machine you can move around ( the oliver is 2500 lbs ) and single phase or 3 phase

best wishes
lou

[tod evans]

i second lous opinion. go for a well built saw with plenty of power. if you don`t plan on doing lots of sheetgood work you may be better served by one of the older saws. if price is secondary to quality you owe it to yourself to check out the northfield saws. http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ .02 tod

[Kent Cori]

I too have never had a need for anything larger than my 10" Griz 1023SL. I suspect the need to make a precision cut of somthing more than 3" thick will be rare and I am perfectly happy with my 10-incher.

[David Mueller]

i second lous opinion. go for a well built saw with plenty of power. if you don`t plan on doing lots of sheetgood work you may be better served by one of the older saws. if price is secondary to quality you owe it to yourself to check out the northfield saws. http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ .02 tod
Tod, price may be secondary but in looking at the Northfield's :eek:, price is everything. Beautiful saws though. Looks like a little overkill for my situation.

I had forgotten about the riving knife, always liked the idea. Originally was going to get a Laguna slider and bandsaw, but just got the LT-18 and swapped the TSS for a Oneway 1640. Maybe will have to revisit Laguna but after looking one over I started leaning toward the others.

Has anyone retrofited a riving knife? I thought I heard of kits out there. I'll have to investigate. Chris, I enjoyed your comment. If I only need the full 12" height 1% of the time, I'd be glad it's there also. Well, as i suspect, the research if fun, the decision is difficult but when the chosen is here, the work is peaceful.

[tod evans]

david, i couldn`t afford the northfield either! if you are looking at sliders be sure to check out mini max and felder. or once again for big bucks altendorf,scmi, etc........after owning a slider i wouldn`t want to go with out it nor would i want it as my only saw. you`ve got lotsa research to do, enjoy, and please keep us posted. tod

[Jim Becker]

Has anyone retrofited a riving knife? I thought I heard of kits out there.
It is unlikely this can be done as the whole blade mounting/raising/lowering system would need to be able to accomodate a riving knife. If the saw wasn't designed for it...it aint' gonna happen. That said, there are growing choices in saws with riving knives. The SawStop has it and the new PM appears to have one, but from the pictures I'm not sure how adjustable it is. The big old Delta RT series also has the ability to support a riving knife. And, of course...there are the Euro saws.

As to the 10" vs 12" question...I've really not found a need for bigger than 10", especially since I can rip very, very thick stock on the bandsaw which is "somewhat" safer, too. If you are looking at a traditional "American design" saw, the extra money for 12" capacity might be better spent on other things, such as quality cutters, safety gear, etc. IMHO, of course. The Euro saws often do have 12" capacity, but some can also use a regular 5/8" bore 10" blade...Mini Max for example. 10" blades are less expensive than 12" blades, remarkably so when you get into the high-quality cutters.

[Ed Bamba]

i second lous opinion. go for a well built saw with plenty of power. if you don`t plan on doing lots of sheetgood work you may be better served by one of the older saws. if price is secondary to quality you owe it to yourself to check out the northfield saws. http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ .02 tod

I have used one these saws. It didn't have a blade brake and it took forever for the blade to stop. Almost lost a thumb after trying to remove a small piece of wood from the front of the blade. The saw was off for about 30 seconds and I didn't notice that the blade was still coasting to a stop. A very dumb move on my part. Now I never remove cutoffs until I've made certain that the blade has come to a complete stop, and almost always use the push stick if it is within a few inches of the blade.

Didn't mean to hijack your post--just piggy backing on it just in case the OP went with your reccomendation. Not sure if a blade brake is standard or optional, didn't see it listed on the their web site, but I mave have missed it.
Ed

[tod evans]

ed, the blade break is standard on the northfields. tod

[Ed Bamba]

Tod, thanks for the clarification. So the blade on the saw I used shouldn't have taken so long to stop? If so, something may not have been right with the one I used.
Ed

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I've had both 10" and 12" inch saws. 12" blades have more runout than 10" and I keep a 10" on my 12" saw unless I need the depth. Quieter too!

[Jeff Singleton]

I've used Unisaws and 66 for about 25 years and would take a 66 in a heartbeat over the Unisaw. I have the 5hp version and it was only $100 more. Better motor, better blade raising and the blade tilts left, the correct way. But, if I had the money then a Northfield it would be or maybe a Martin or Altendoff, but then again you need a good 200-400 square feet to run one those Cadillacs.

Jeff Singleton

[David Mueller]

Gentlemen,
All the comments so far have been greatly appricated. I've looked at sliders and like the concept but space is somewhat of a factor unless I invest in a combo but too much $$,$$$. I thought so on the riving knife retro. As far as blade expense goes, I attended a seminar on blades and am convinced that properly used and sharpened, a blade lasts a long time, so cost vs longevity is a non factor. Tilt is a non factor also. Also, I'll probably be using knock-down outfeed and side tables for space.

Jim, you probably stated it best, that's what a bandsaw is for. Sawstop?, too new of a technology to come to a conclusion and haven't seen the new PM2K. Since I'm just an almost retired serious engineer/hobbist, no real need for serious industrial type of equipment.

Mike, I like the idea of 10" blade on the 12" saw, have you seen any downside? Maybe a good way to go.:rolleyes: not sure about the runout you mentioned. I see where it's more in a larger disk but if all is well in the arbor and blade, it shouldn't be significant.

[Dan Larson]

Mike, I like the idea of 10" blade on the 12" saw, have you seen any downside? Maybe a good way to go.:rolleyes: not sure about the runout you mentioned. I see where it's more in a larger disk but if all is well in the arbor and blade, it shouldn't be significant.

That's what I do too. My 12" saw has never seen anything other than a 10" blade. So far I haven't needed the extra cutting capacity, but it's nice to know that it's there when I need it. Seems to me that a 10" blade would be intrinsicly safer than a 12" since the smaller blade has less potential energy when spinning at operating speed. So if it does fling something, hopefully it will be with less force! Also, the smaller blade will put less stress on the motor (although this is not much of an issue with a 3 HP motor.)

Dan

[Alan Turner]

That's what I do too. My 12" saw has never seen anything other than a 10" blade. So far I haven't needed the extra cutting capacity, but it's nice to know that it's there when I need it. Seems to me that a 10" blade would be intrinsicly safer than a 12" since the smaller blade has less potential energy when spinning at operating speed. So if it does fling something, hopefully it will be with less force! Also, the smaller blade will put less stress on the motor (although this is not much of an issue with a 3 HP motor.)

Dan

From the other perspective, for the very occassional cut, I have read that a 12" blade will fit on a Unisaw, but have never tried it. Just a thought.

[lou sansone]

David

If you are open to the idea of a used machine then you can get more for your $, the down side is that you may get a few problems along the way. In general I have found that good used machines can save you a lot of money. I have seen a few machines that are only 1 year old for sale because the owner wanted to trade up right away. They were already reduced by 30%. something to think about
lou

[Dan Larson]

From the other perspective, for the very occassional cut, I have read that a 12" blade will fit on a Unisaw, but have never tried it. Just a thought.
Interesting thought-- I wonder if the throat plate is big enough?

[David Mueller]

David

If you are open to the idea of a used machine then you can get more for your $, the down side is that you may get a few problems along the way. In general I have found that good used machines can save you a lot of money. I have seen a few machines that are only 1 year old for sale because the owner wanted to trade up right away. They were already reduced by 30%. something to think about
lou

Lou, I'm not opposed to used, just been burned a few times but still open. I don't see that many in my interest area since I'm planning to go where many want to end up. I guess I fall in the trade up crowd, been frustrated using a portable Dewalt and before that just a circular/jig saw. Made most of the furniture in the house that way. Just trying to setup shop while working and can afford good quality equipment.

Dan, a "10" blade would be intrinsicly safer than a 12", Is that like saying you'd rather be hit by a pickup going 100 MPH then a semi at 100 MPH. :eek: :D

[Dan Larson]

Dan, a "10" blade would be intrinsicly safer than a 12", Is that like saying you'd rather be hit by a pickup going 100 MPH then a semi at 100 MPH. :eek: :D
Or another way to think of it-- how big of a gun would you rather get shot with? Best to avoid getting shot at in the first place, but I'd choose the smallest gun possible.:D

The teeth of a 10" blade move 17% slower than those of a 12" blade. Is this a significant difference? I don't know for sure. No question that kickback from either blade will be nasty, but wood flying off of the smaller blade will be a little less so.

[lou sansone]

Or another way to think of it-- how big of a gun would you rather get shot with? Best to avoid getting shot at in the first place, but I'd choose the smallest gun possible.:D

The teeth of a 10" blade move 17% slower than those of a 12" blade. Is this a significant difference? I don't know for sure. No question that kickback from either blade will be nasty, but wood flying off of the smaller blade will be a little less so.

Hi dan ... I am not sure that this is correct. From my experience most 10" saws run in the 5000 rpm range ( that is the arbor speed not the motor speed) , while saws in the 12 and 14 inch range tend to run in the 4000 rpm and 3600 rpm range. Some of the sliders have variable speed motors and some have multiple speeds. The RT-40 has 2 speeds and the martin t-17 has 3 speeds. I think that in general the machine builders are trying to match SFPM to what ever blade you have on the saw.

lou

[Dan Larson]

Hi dan ... I am not sure that this is correct. From my experience most 10" saws run in the 5000 rpm range ( that is the arbor speed not the motor speed) , while saws in the 12 and 14 inch range tend to run in the 4000 rpm and 3600 rpm range. Some of the sliders have variable speed motors and some have multiple speeds. The RT-40 has 2 speeds and the martin t-17 has 3 speeds. I think that in general the machine builders are trying to match SFPM to what ever blade you have on the saw.

lou

Hey Lou, you make a good point. I should have qualified my statement. It only applies to using a smaller blade on the same saw. For example on my saw, the arbor spins at 4022 rpm. So the blade "tooth speed" would be 144 mph for a 12" blade and 120 mph for a 10" blade. But as David so colorfully points out, kickback from either size blade would be ugly. I suppose that should be the most important thing here.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

My point is that everything else equal, a 12" blade wobbles more than a 10"
I've found the best way to examine is to watch the last three revolutions when the saw is turned off.


Gentlemen,
All the comments so far have been greatly appricated. I've looked at sliders and like the concept but space is somewhat of a factor unless I invest in a combo but too much $$,$$$. I thought so on the riving knife retro. As far as blade expense goes, I attended a seminar on blades and am convinced that properly used and sharpened, a blade lasts a long time, so cost vs longevity is a non factor. Tilt is a non factor also. Also, I'll probably be using knock-down outfeed and side tables for space.

Jim, you probably stated it best, that's what a bandsaw is for. Sawstop?, too new of a technology to come to a conclusion and haven't seen the new PM2K. Since I'm just an almost retired serious engineer/hobbist, no real need for serious industrial type of equipment.

Mike, I like the idea of 10" blade on the 12" saw, have you seen any downside? Maybe a good way to go.:rolleyes: not sure about the runout you mentioned. I see where it's more in a larger disk but if all is well in the arbor and blade, it shouldn't be significant.

[Charlie Plesums]

Gentlemen,
All the comments so far have been greatly appricated. I've looked at sliders and like the concept but space is somewhat of a factor unless I invest in a combo but too much $$,$$$.

I have a large combo in my garage, and couldn't be happier. My wife's comment, after she saw the speed, safety, and precision, was that I should have bought it 30 years ago.


Jim, you probably stated it best, that's what a bandsaw is for. Sawstop?, too new of a technology to come to a conclusion and haven't seen the new PM2K. Since I'm just an almost retired serious engineer/hobbist, no real need for serious industrial type of equipment.

The bandsaw doesn't do real good with a cross cut of a thick piece of wood. Rip is one thing, but not cross cut...



Mike, I like the idea of 10" blade on the 12" saw, have you seen any downside? Maybe a good way to go.:rolleyes: not sure about the runout you mentioned. I see where it's more in a larger disk but if all is well in the arbor and blade, it shouldn't be significant.
My combo supports a 12 inch blade, but I had a collection of ten inch Forrest blades, so I planned to use them. To my surprise there have been 2 or 3 times this year when I did switch to the 12 inch blade (I bought a matching 12 inch Forrest).

I did have to modify the riving knife to work with the 10 inch blades... the slot where it is mounted didn't allow it to be dropped as low as the 10 inch blades (necessary for non-through cuts). It was a quick job with a Dremel grinder. Note that thin kerf blades and riving knives don't fit together.

[David Mueller]

The bandsaw doesn't do real good with a cross cut of a thick piece of wood. Rip is one thing, but not cross cut...

My LT-18 with a carbide tipped blade does a pretty good job at cross cutting.
As far a a combo, I considered and decided to change to dedicated. The saw is the final piece of the puzzle.

[Dev Emch]

For the most part, 10 in versus 12 in makes no difference at all. In fact, if your going to a larger saw, then go to a larger saw. This would be a 16 in or 18 in saw. The most frequent blade I use on my martin is a 12 in blade even thought I can but in larger.

The bulk majority of cuts can be done with a 10 in blade.

What I find more significant is the diameter of the arbor. Personally, I find the standard 5/8 in arbor a bit small. After all, its only 1/8 in larger than a router bit. My oliver has a 1 inch arbor and my martin has a 1.25 inch arbor. This extra stiffness comes in handy when making tough cuts like cutting coves on the table saw. So I would look to see who has the fattest arbor before I look at blade diameter.

[Chris Livingston]

I've got a 12" cabinet saw and really like the extra 1" in capacity for the thick stuff I cut using my cross cut sled. Loosing the 1/2" for the thickness of the sled doesn't hamper me very often this was as it would on a 10" saw.

If the run out on the arbor is negligible and you get a good blade the wobble you may get isn't a factor. Is cross cutting with a band saw is good enough then the wobble you’d get with a 12” blade would be like going from a hand saw to a laser cutter as far as quality.

I also love the fact that since my chop saw is also 12" I don't have a bunch of 10" and 12" blades lying around and I can spend good money one a blade that can be switched back and forth with ease.

Some day I will be switching to a slider and after having a 12" and all the money I've sunk into blades would never consider buying something with less capacity.