Joinery Plane Options

[John Isgren]

Looking at two options for joinery planes.

1. Veritas Joinery package - Small Plow plane with all blades, Router plane with all blades, skew rabbet and medium shoulder. Mostly interested In the router and plow, the other two would be useful and the package represents a significant discount overall.

2. For about the same price I could get the Veritas combination plane with a large assortment of blades plus the Router plane with all of the blades.

Everything I have read recommends the Combination plane vs the Plow plane. Other advantage is I don’t have to buy all of the combo blades right now and can order as I need.

Any thoughts as to the utility of the combo plane vs plow? I have already gotten some feedback that the skew and shoulder may not be needed to start with.

[Jim Koepke]

The combination plane allows many more options the plow plane doesn't. A simple molding made with beading and fluting blades can really make a piece pop.

A wide blade on the combination plane allows you to make rabbets of just about any size. It may be a bit tricky going across grain but even that can be done.

My shoulder plane comes in handy most of the time for clean up of rabbets. A sharp chisel seems to work better for me on mortise & tenon work. Occasionally my router plane is used for trimming tenons.

A skew rabbet would be a nice addition to my fleet of planes... Oh wait, there are already a bunch of wooden skew rabbets in my accumulation. They were all $20 or less. They do require a little fettling and getting used to for good results.

jtk

[David Silverson]

I would get the combination plane and router. You’ll not miss the shoulder plane and I find skew rabbet planes not very useful.

[Prashun Patel]

What joinery are you trying to cut? I am not sure a Combination Plane is something everyone needs.

I'd buy these one at a time depending on what joint you are trying to make.

If it were me, I'd start with the router plane and go from there. I do find the router plane a little more versatile (if not a tad slower in some situations) than a shoulder plane with respect to tenon cheeks, dados, and half laps. For actual tenon shoulders I prefer a chisel which gives the ability to undercut.

So, my vote is: carcass saw + 3/8" chisel + router plane.

[Jim Koepke]

I am not sure a Combination Plane is something everyone needs.

If one wants to have slots for drawer and box bottoms there isn't a more efficient way to produce them short of an electric router.

jtk

[John Schtrumpf]

If one wants to have slots for drawer and box bottoms there isn't a more efficient way to produce them short of an electric router.

jtk
Also the grooves for frame and panel, bread board ends, tongue and groove (although there are dedicated tongue and groove planes).

[Rob Luter]

I have a medium shoulder plane I use frequently, a small plow plane I use occasionally, and #71 Router I use rarely if ever. I think the combination plane is about as cool as it gets, but I can't see I'd use it much.

My $0.02 worth.

[John Isgren]

If one wants to have slots for drawer and box bottoms there isn't a more efficient way to produce them short of an electric router.

jtk

My current projects ideas consist mostly of furniture with a total of about 24 drawers...:)

I know that I will get either a plow or combination. Since one project is a drop leaf table with rule joints, that likely pushes me firmly towards the combination plane.

[Josko Catipovic]

I've been able to do beading and fluting with my Veritas plow plane, as well as cutting dadoes up to .1/2". Works fine. Took me a while to automatically reach for it, but I'm doing it more and more lately.
I bought the Veritas joinery kit. Took me a while to grow into it, but I'm so glad i did. Can't imagine working without the shoulder plane lately, and the router and skew rabbet also get their share of use.

[David Bassett]

... Since one project is a drop leaf table with rule joints, that likely pushes me firmly towards the combination plane.

I don't see rule joint blade sets for the LV combo plane, does e.g. the Stanley 55 have this option?

Also, I understand how a rule joint can be cut with hollow & round planes, (not that I'd want, or have the skill, to make a clean joint that way), but I don't visualize the geometry of cutting one with the LV combo plane even if you made a custom blade set. I suppose there's some tilt angle and complex blade that'd work, I just don't picture it.

[Brandon Speaks]

I guess it depends on what you are building. I could see the usefulness of all the planes in the joinery package for some people. For me neither option listed would be worth a grand, but we have different needs. I do have the router plane and dont use it as much as I though but am glad I have it, I recently got the small plow and am glad I have it too, neither has a large blade assortment but I am sure both will grow with time. The combo plane is interesting and I could see why people like that one, maybe someday I will get one.

[John Isgren]

I don't see rule joint blade sets for the LV combo plane, does e.g. the Stanley 55 have this option?

Also, I understand how a rule joint can be cut with hollow & round planes, (not that I'd want, or have the skill, to make a clean joint that way), but I don't visualize the geometry of cutting one with the LV combo plane even if you made a custom blade set. I suppose there's some tilt angle and complex blade that'd work, I just don't picture it.

I found this blog for making one with blades for a Stanley 55 which should work with the LV combo. Eventually I want at least a half set of hollows and rounds, but new is far too expensive and I don’t know enough yet to be able to evaluate vintage ones for use.

402468

http://bringbackthehandtools.blogspot.com/2013/

[David Bassett]

I found this blog for making one with blades for a Stanley 55 which should work with the LV combo....

Hopefully one of the more experienced folks will chime in, but that looks to me like the blades work in the 55 because the skates can be offset ("tilted"). I understand the LV Combo is more similar to the Stanley 45 and lacks the ability to adjust a skate up & down. Probably a 45-degree tilt could "raise" one skate versus the other, but that also changes the cutter profile and I'm just not picturing it. (If you got a clear mental image, go for it! And *please* document the process, I'm sure a lot of people will be interested.)

Good luck.

[John Isgren]

Hopefully one of the more experienced folks will chime in, but that looks to me like the blades work in the 55 because the skates can be offset ("tilted"). I understand the LV Combo is more similar to the Stanley 45 and lacks the ability to adjust a skate up & down. Probably a 45-degree tilt could "raise" one skate versus the other, but that also changes the cutter profile and I'm just not picturing it. (If you got a clear mental image, go for it! And *please* document the process, I'm sure a lot of people will be interested.)

Good luck.

Admitting full well that I haven’t a clue and have never played with one of these, I think I can see a couple of different ways for this to work. Isn’t that half the fun of woodworking projects. — to figure out how to do something? :)

[Hasin Haroon]

Between the two options I would go with the joinery plane set. The combination plane can do everything the other planes (other than the router) can do, but not as well. It's easier and better to have dedicated tools for each activity rather than a catch all tool that needs a lot of finicking and doesn't work quite as well.

[James Pallas]

I would go with the combo and router. I have a 45 and a large and small router. I would like to have the Veritas combo. I use the 45 on nearly every project rabbets, dados, moldings, tongue and grove. Routers are used often also. I have an LN medium shoulder plane. It gets used but not often. I don't have a skew plane in the shop and have never felt that I had to have one.
Jim

[ken hatch]

Between the two options I would go with the joinery plane set. The combination plane can do everything the other planes (other than the router) can do, but not as well. It's easier and better to have dedicated tools for each activity rather than a catch all tool that needs a lot of finicking and doesn't work quite as well.

Hasin,

I'm with you, most of the time a dedicated tool works easier and better than a combination tool. I can't say one way or the other about the LV combination because I have not used it but I have used other combination planes and found better options for each job I tried..

ken

[Warren Mickley]

I would go with the combination plane. I think a double skated plane works better as a plow than a single skate; it is more stable in the cut. Even though the combination plane can easily be set up as a single skate plow, we never do it that way because a double skate is better. In addition a combination plane can be set up as a dado plane, something none of the others you mention can do. I would not get excited about the moulding possibilities of a combination plane, but the beading and the tongue cutters work passably well.

In 45 years I haven't used a router plane for joinery. I use it mostly for background work in carving. It also makes a poor grooving plane. I have never owned a shoulder plane, but I have used rabbet planes extensively. You will want a moving fillister (fenced rabbet) of some kind. It does not have to be skew, in fact a skew rabbet can only be used in one direction, which is a disadvantage. That is why historically both skew mouth and square mouth rabbets were used.

[Warren Mickley]

Another option is to make plow and fillister as they were used in Roubo's day. I used these when I was starting out and work quite well.

Here is Roubo plow:

402481

And a Roubo fillister:
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[JimA Thornton]

Great thread. Just shows a person that there a numerous ways the "skin" the proverbial cat. I'm just now getting into more hand work after a lifetime of machines. I have a shoulder plane and two sizes of router planes. I love the router planes.... whereas other folks........not so much. I'm going to go with a Veritas Plough plane instead of the Combination, since it'll to all that I want. I'm not sure it's necessary, but for not much more than the price of a Combination plane I could have both a left and a right Plough plane.

[Phil Mueller]

I guess it’s what you get used to. I love using my router planes and my shoulder plane. They probably get used for all sorts of things they may not be specifically designed for, but to a large extent familiarity drives use. Whatever you decide to purchase, take the time to really get to know the tool and become confident in using it.

[Derek Cohen]

My choice would be the joinery set: Small Plow, Large Router Plane, Skew Rabbet Plane and Medium Shoulder Plane. For now I would forget about the Combination Plane.

The Combo Plane is a better plane than the Small Plow (more features, blade options, etc) ....however, since the topic is joinery and not edge treatments, then the Small Plow will do as good a job of ploughing grooves and, at a pinch, planing rebates. What the Small Plow will not do is plane dados. There is a work around this - which I prefer anyway since it is necessary for stopped dados, which I use more commonly - is to knife, chisel and level with the router plane.

The Skew Rabbet plane is the backbone of rebates. It is easier to use this plane than a plough plane. Given the choice of using a plough or a dinkum rebate plane for rebates, I go for the rebate (rabbet) plane every time.

That Medium Shoulder plane is so useful. Ironically, not my choice for shoulders; rather for fine tuning and squaring rebates. It also works well for precision planing of small areas, and this includes taking a smidgeon off a shoulder (where a chisel - my usual tool here - is not optimum).

I love router planes. Not just for levelling the floors of dados, but for stopped dados, stopped rebates and stopped grooves. Plus the floors of inlays, such as butterflies, and levelling tenon cheeks.

The point of the joinery set is that it equips one for joinery. If that is your aim, then a combination plane will fall well short of the target. I prefer having planes dedicated to tasks. It is tempting to seek out a plane that can do more, but in the end it can do less.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I found this blog for making one with blades for a Stanley 55 which should work with the LV combo. Eventually I want at least a half set of hollows and rounds, but new is far too expensive and I don’t know enough yet to be able to evaluate vintage ones for use.

402468

http://bringbackthehandtools.blogspot.com/2013/

The method described uses a Stanley #55.

As David mentions it works with the #55 because the skate is adjustable. It may be possible to have the cutter all the way disengaged and then advance it a little on each pass to create the ovolo with the #62 blade. The cove cutter should work well with a single skate.

One trick that may help with something like this is to have a piece of dowel inserted in a depth stop holder of the plane so you can keep your vertical orientation as consistent as possible.

It would be a challenge, but it could be done. You might want to try it on a couple pieces of scrap first.

My suggestion would be to also watch the episode of The Woodwright's Shop that was mentioned on the blog.

jtk

[John Isgren]

Great thread. Just shows a person that there a numerous ways the "skin" the proverbial cat. I'm just now getting into more hand work after a lifetime of machines. I have a shoulder plane and two sizes of router planes. I love the router planes.... whereas other folks........not so much. I'm going to go with a Veritas Plough plane instead of the Combination, since it'll to all that I want. I'm not sure it's necessary, but for not much more than the price of a Combination plane I could have both a left and a right Plough plane.

I appreciate all of the differing views, it helps make sure I am looking at all of the angles. It is still 2-3 weeks before I can order my tools, but right now I am leaning back towards the Joinery set. I am trying to build a basic set of tools, and plough and a router are a given and essential to how I want to work. I think to start with the extra cost of the combination is not justified over the small plough. Longer term I really want to explore hollows and rounds but might look for a No.55 in the interim. I still need to decide if the shoulder and rebate planes are worth it. From watching Paul Sellers, for housing dados and rebates he just uses a chisel and router plane for both. On the upside, both have multiple uses (to quote Alton Brown I don’t like tools that are uni-taskers)

Thanks again for the responses.!

[Christopher Charles]

Hi John,

First, what a fun decision! Second, I don't think you can go too wrong. I had pieced the joinery set together over a decade, with the exception of a Record plow plane, which worked, but was never quite the LV experience. I bought the combo when it came out and it is great, but really the LV small plow would meet my needs nearly as well...so I'd probably go for the joinery set as well and 'upgrade' to the combo if needed later (and you'd probably be ahead money-wise). I do use both the med. shoulder plane and skew rabbet plane frequently.

Enjoy!

Best,

[steven c newman]

Seems I took a different route..
1/4" Plough plane...make in 1864
Auburn No. 181, 1.25" skewed rebate plane
Stanley No. 39...3/8" Dado plane
Wards (Stanley) No. 78 rebate/bullnose plane ( haven't used the bullnose setting, yet..
Stanley SW Type 20, No. 45

Hold a Stanley No. 90 for awhile, wound up selling it.
Router plane? I just use a chisel.

Would rather spend the shop budget on wood supplies...quite happy with the tools I have and USE right now.
YMMV

[Steven Mikes]

I have the Veritas router plane, medium shoulder, and skew rabbet so far. Will get the plow plane soon for grooves to make drawers & boxes. (Now of course I wish I'd just bought them all at once and saved the %18).
Agree with the others who suggest that a set of dedicated planes is better than the combo plane.
Have been cutting rather large dados lately, shoulder plane and router plane are great for finishing.