Felder KF500 - Round peg, square hole ?????

[Greg Parrish]

What the heck. The dust hose inside my used Felder saw was rotted away. I ordered an adapter from Felder to get round hose onto square chute. They sent me a piece of hose and then indicated the parts diagram didn’t really show an adapter but rather the hose forced on. They indicated if I square the hose wire and clamp it should fit back the way the piece I removed was.

Well, try as I might, I can’t get this darn thing to fit on the end given the two tabs that poke out to hold the hose I presume. If there really isn’t an adapter from the factory that turns square to round, how do I get this 100mm hose on there? I’ve been fighting and bending and getting no where other than a big knot on my shin when the pliers slipped and I smacked myself so hard on the side of my shin, between bone and muscle, I thought I might throw up. Must have hit the nerve. LOL. Ouch.

Any tips rips or anyone with similar saw have an adapter that mine is missing? Thanks.

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[David Stone (CT)]

Ha ha. Sorry to laugh but I can relate. The hose on my Hammer K3 -- which appeared to be made of the equivalent of vinyl flex like the type sold for el cheapo dryer venting -- disintegrated after around 15 years. That original stuff was so flimsy and flexible that it was easy for the factory to fit it around the squared-off dust shroud that encases part of the blade without an adapter (I assume your Felder is basically the same design). But when I went to replace it with much better flex that I had left over from hooking something else up to the DC, I found it incredibly difficult to get that vastly stiffer material to distort into the shape of a rectangle to the point where I could hook it over all four edges of the dust shroud, even though the ID was the same. After an hour or two of repeated failed attempts, skinned knuckles and some bad language, I finally got it on -- just barely -- and was able to advance it up enough to get a hose clamp around to secure it. It's not the prettiest, but it has held up for a couple years now. ...I am betting that Hammer / Felder does not have an adapter, so my plan is someday to make something -- probably from layers of Baltic birch -- that would form a collar to go around the dust shroud but also hold a plastic male adapter to transition to round and let me hook the hose to that. May have to take the saw apart to get that done though -- it's not exactly fun to wiggle inside the access door on the back or try to reach down from the top.

[Greg Parrish]

Yeah, I pulled the chute out. Still can’t get it. I have a knot the size of half a grade a egg on my shin bone now. Ugh.

I wondered if if one of the fernco adapters might fit. Not sure. The hose Felder sent me is about twice as stiff as what I use around the shop. May have to try one of my spare pieces next. Thanks.

[David Eisenhauer]

Would heat from a blow dryer applied to the flex hose soften it enough to get it pulled up over the end of the chute? Or heat to a PVC collar so that the collar could be formed square on one end?

[al heitz]

I was thinking along these same lines. Not knowing exactly what you are working with, what about soaking it in very hot/boiling water to soften it up? Add a thin film of dish detergent to it or to the stub-out when you try to connect it. I've often used dish detergent as a lubricant when I needed to force a fitting.

[Greg Parrish]

Well, that was the task from hell. The devil wouldn’t even wish that torture on someone. Got it on there but I had to cut the wires on both sides and bend the tabs on the bottom of the chute. Even then I almost didn’t get the darn thing on there. Hopefully I left enough hose. Seems to pivot to 45 and go up and down okay. The hose is very stiff. Not taking it back off unless there is a problem though.

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[Steve Eure]

I too, was thinking on the lines of a heat gun or hair dryer set on high. It would probably help if you had someone to help you while doing so, so that one can be applying heat and the other forcing it on. Wear leather gloves while doing this. A heat gun can blister and burn skin. Hair dryer shouldn't get hot enough to burn, but just as a precaution, I would still wear leather gloves.

[Richard Coers]

Typical European engineering. Dust hose on the table saw section of my Minimax Lab 30 has to fit over a long thin rectangle. PITA

[Rick Potter]

Did the old one have wire in it like your new one? I had a KF700 that got clogged too often.

[Greg Parrish]

Yep, and the wire was all that was left. LOL. Plastic was in shredded pieces in bottom. :)

Im sure with a hydraulic machine/press and the right jigs you could stretch it to the perfect shape but I didn’t have anything available like that.

[David Stone (CT)]

Congrats! And best wishes for a speedy recovery on the bump on your shin.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks David. Swelling already went down a good bit. Sucker hit just the right spot though.

[Martin Wasner]

Cut the wire a few inches past where you want to clamp and remove the wire from that section completely.

I just had to do this recently, I don't remember on what though

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Martin. I actually tried that but couldn’t get the wire to pull out. That said, I got it on there for now. Thanks.

[Michelle Rich]

do you turn or know someone who does..it would be pretty simple to make your own adapter. Other choice might be to check out round to other shape STOVEPIPE Adapters at a woodstove store.

[John Kee]

One trick is to use 4" pipe instead of the metric version Felder sells. An adapter is tricky since this is designed with a 45 degree cut in mind. When I owned a K500S in 2008 I changed to a 5"hose for superior dust collection, the inside diameter of the Felder dust hoses is just under 3 1/2" which is not great for good collection. When I made the change flow went up 200 CFM on that port. The K500 is a Hammer chassis with an Xroll slider so Hammer owners have the same crappy setup too. When I upgraded to a K700SP I found they use an adapter but same crappy hose, these Felder design boys just don't get proper dust collection.

[Greg Parrish]

This one uses the 100mm (4”) hose inside and the rear port transitions to 120mm (5”) hose on the back. Are you saying you ran the 120mm/5” all the way to the inside chute? If so, did you craft some sort of transition port for the back?

its funny, I was looking at the new minimax I just got thinking I should get it adapted over to 5” also and then all my major tools would be running on 5” instead of 4”. of course, I was also looking at the minimax wondering how hard it would be to install the Felder f-rails on two sides so it would use my various table extensions. LOL ;)




One trick is to use 4" pipe instead of the metric version Felder sells. An adapter is tricky since this is designed with a 45 degree cut in mind. When I owned a K500S in 2008 I changed to a 5"hose for superior dust collection, the inside diameter of the Felder dust hoses is just under 3 1/2" which is not great for good collection. When I made the change flow went up 200 CFM on that port. The K500 is a Hammer chassis with an Xroll slider so Hammer owners have the same crappy setup too. When I upgraded to a K700SP I found they use an adapter but same crappy hose, these Felder design boys just don't get proper dust collection.

[John Kee]

Remove the 120mm to 100mm transition port (another stupid design on Felder's part), you might have to slightly enlarge the hole size through the machine or use 5" port flanged fittings. I enlarged the hole and put the pipe right through the side of the machine right to the bottom of the dust port. I made a small spacer to make the hose clampable like the original. Another hint is to use dust hose that has a smoother inside instead then the typical highly ribbed stuff most people use.

I run 6" piping everywhere as close to the machine as possible then adapt down to individual requirements, 5" just don't work for my needs, keeps flow rates better if you have enough of a dust collector to handle it. You can use the proper transition pieces to go from one size to another or use sideways connectors like others have suggested.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Extraction/Quick-Connectors/Reducer-quick-connector.html

Felder uses the proprietary P-Rail on the slider and another design on the Hammer so you have to buy their accessories and then F-couplings on other parts. Like I said not the brightest bulbs in the engineering department IMHO but they do know how to nickle and dime you to death with accessories.

[Jim Becker]

Greg, I use 5" drops/hose for the 120mm ports on my SCM/Minimax equipment, adapted with Fernco rubber thingies...

[Rod Sheridan]

Greg, I use the 5 inch hose and a Felder right angle quick coupler, as the right angle works best for hose layout when I convert to using the shaper........Rod.

P.S. I bought polyurethane ultra flexible hose, it's far more flexible than the vinyl hose...............Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Thats what I did on the hammer J/P, and what I planned to do on the KF500. In my small shop my Oneida V3000 seems fine with the 6” overhead pipe and 5” hose to machine however the saw does drop that further to 4” which seems weird. I’ll try it as is first but mayoook to extend the 5” on in if needed.


Greg, I use 5" drops/hose for the 120mm ports on my SCM/Minimax equipment, adapted with Fernco rubber thingies...

[Dan Schocke]

I think you missed an opportunity to buy a 3D printer to make the custom part that you need :).

--Dan

[Jim Becker]

I think you missed an opportunity to buy a 3D printer to make the custom part that you need :).


Now...there's a thought!! You got some space left for that Greg? :) :D

[Greg Parrish]

Now...there's a thought!! You got some space left for that Greg? :) :D

Maybe space, but no budget. LOL :)

[Chris Parks]

Thats what I did on the hammer J/P, and what I planned to do on the KF500. In my small shop my Oneida V3000 seems fine with the 6” overhead pipe and 5” hose to machine however the saw does drop that further to 4” which seems weird. I’ll try it as is first but mayoook to extend the 5” on in if needed.

I have a theory on that, I think that there is an EU specification of a 125mm/5" port on all machines and Hammer said OK we give you a 125mm port but no one says we have to make it 125mm to the blade guard inside the cabinet so we save money and make it 90mm or is it 100mm, I have never measured it.

[Greg Parrish]

Yeah, I think it’s 100mm inside. It probably works fine but may be a future upgrade. I’m sure it will work better than my open PM66 cabinet. Only dust right near the 4” pipe was pulled in and the rest had to be swept into the pipe every few months or it would build up inside.

Im hopeful to have everything up and running in next two weeks. Should have all of my parts from Felder by then and have my power situation sorted out with a new 30a circuit installed for my MM16 and my v3000 dust collector moved to its own circuit.




I have a theory on that, I think that there is an EU specification of a 125mm/5" port on all machines and Hammer said OK we give you a 125mm port but no one says we have to make it 125mm to the blade guard inside the cabinet so we save money and make it 90mm or is it 100mm, I have never measured it.

[Chris Parks]

My K3 has terrible dust extraction from the cabinet port in spite of the Clearvue that powers it.

[John Kee]

The really stupid part about typical dust collection on a K3 or K500 is the fact that you actually need 2 different sources of vacuum to effectively collect dust. The typical over the blade extraction is a 2" port that most should know needs a vacuum source like a shop vac while the lower 120mm port needs a DC. Again what were they thinking. When I had the K500S I modified over the blade to a 4" port which allowed the same 6" line to effectively service both ports and noticeably helped with dust collection. My current K700SP has the over arm dust shroud that originally connected to an undersized 3" port. The connecting tube to the shroud was a rectangular tube that could support a 4" flow, so again the coupling was modified to 4" and a noticeable improvement in dust collection above the blade.

[Jim Becker]

The really stupid part about typical dust collection on a K3 or K500 is the fact that you actually need 2 different sources of vacuum to effectively collect dust.

That kinda applies to any kind of table saw, be it a North American design or a Euro slider. Material comes off both the bottom and the top of the saw blade. Nature of the beast.

[John Kee]

That kinda applies to any kind of table saw, be it a North American design or a Euro slider. Material comes off both the bottom and the top of the saw blade. Nature of the beast.

Your right Jim I should have included SCM/Minimax saws along with a few other others but this was a Felder thread. Just because its the norm doesn't mean s==t. Lame engineering and poor design in dust collection like this are included in a lot of very expensive equipment. I don't have loyalty to any equipment brand like many on Sawmill Creek display and have no agenda to promote anyone. I call it what it is in the very remote hope that maybe the manufactures will wake up and smell the roses. A few very minor low cost to the manufacturer changes would make some of these saws great and in turn discussions like this into promotion instead of buyer beware threads.

[Mike Kees]

I have a Felder k700s from 2009. My saw has a plastic transition piece from the bottom of the metal blade shroud that bends 90 degrees to go towards the dust port on the side of the saw. I have a 6" drop to this and a Unisaw that I wye off to two 5" lines to the saws. The overhead drop from dust collection is a 4",that again has a wye to go to the overhead on my felder and a sharkguard on the Unisaw. All have blast gates to isolate each saw. The overhead works well with the four inch line necked down in the last 6" to the 4" port on the over head guard. Underneath my saw is a work in progress. I will probably have to do what John describes as when I looked in the other day there was a lot of sawdust all over. I have only had this hooked up this way for about a month,so we will see. I agree that Felder could have done a better job here,but man I still smile every time that I cut stuff on that saw. I plan to clean the saw and go for awhile making sure that I turn on the collector EVERY cut to make sure my problem is not just myself.:D

[Greg Parrish]

I have the Felder blade guard but planned to either replace with a sharkguard or possibly make or adapt the overhung guard like the 700 uses. Would love to have a workable option like that on 4” collection so that it works without the Irving knife like when using a dado blade. We will see what I end up with. Easiest is probably a shark guard but I’m not rushing to do anything unless I find a deal on a used arm from a 700 that I can modify.

kinda wondered about something like this combined with a sharkguard.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Universal-Overarm-Blade-Guard-For-Table-Saws/T10113?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0ejtxe6a4AIVD56fCh1EZAOtE AQYBCABEgL37PD_BwE

[Rod Sheridan]

Here's what I did Greg.......Rod.

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[John Kee]

Greg the Grizzly looks like the simplest solution, no Shark guard required. This aftermarket addon wasn't around in 2007/2008 when I had my 500. Its close to the older Felder design which IMHO is much superior as compared to the new pivoting design. I could be wrong but I thought I heard the Sharkguard guy recently passed.

[John Kee]

"I have a Felder k700s from 2009. My saw has a plastic transition piece from the bottom of the metal blade shroud that bends 90 degrees to go towards the dust port on the side of the saw."

Been there and tried to modify to 5", because of the extremely tight tolerances at the 45 degree setting of the saw blade and the trunnion lift assembly I gave up.

[Greg Parrish]

He did did but I corresponded with some of his family members (wife and son I think) and the business is still continuing to operate. Sounds like it had grown enough that there was family already involved. my only hesitance with the shark guard approach on this one is dust collection for large pieces or dado.


Greg the Grizzly looks like the simplest solution, no Shark guard required. This aftermarket addon wasn't around in 2007/2008 when I had my 500. Its close to the older Felder design which IMHO is much superior as compared to the new pivoting design. I could be wrong but I thought I heard the Sharkguard guy recently passed.

[Greg Parrish]

Looks good Rod and somewhat what I’m thinking since the Felder version is like 1200 bucks. Thanks for sharing the pic. Which model is that and does it cover the scoring blade? Thanks.


EDIT: never mind found your wire up. LOL. https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/workshop-talk/shop-related-discussions/shop-and-tool-safety/1094722-installing-an-overarm-guard-on-a-table-saw



Here's what I did Greg.......Rod.

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[Jim Becker]

Your right Jim I should have included SCM/Minimax saws along with a few other others but this was a Felder thread. Just because its the norm doesn't mean s==t. Lame engineering and poor design in dust collection like this are included in a lot of very expensive equipment. I don't have loyalty to any equipment brand like many on Sawmill Creek display and have no agenda to promote anyone. I call it what it is in the very remote hope that maybe the manufactures will wake up and smell the roses. A few very minor low cost to the manufacturer changes would make some of these saws great and in turn discussions like this into promotion instead of buyer beware threads.

As I noted, this is a "universal" problem with collecting dust and chips with "table saws"...the make, model and type really doesn't matter. I do agree that saws with internal shrouds, which includes Euro sliders as well as some more recent cabinet saws, could often have had a little better engineering with the internal designs, even though the clearances can be challenging when you take blade tilting into consideration. There's too much stopping down of the duct size "inside" which drastically reduces air flow...and air flow is what moves the dust and chips. Overhead collection is theoretically the same challenge, regardless. IMHO, the best solutions are not attached to the riving knives (or splitters for old-school saws) because that almost automatically means they will be removed for a non-through cut and often not put back on the saw. An independent overhead collection/guard setup removes that tendency from the mix. I actually want to retrofit my slider setup so I have an independent guard/collection solution because I so rarely use the OEM guard/collection because of the removal need for non-through cuts. (and readjustment of the riving knife height if I'm using a 10" blade instead of the standard 12"

blade)

BTW, I had the Excalibur overarm guard/collector on the cabinet saw I had before the slider and I'm sorry I didn't keep it since the buyer of the saw likely never installed it when she took the saw to her shop. I could have easily made that work for my current saw.

[Greg Parrish]

Had a little money left in PayPal so I ordered one of the grizzly ones while it’s on sale and while I had a 10% off coupon. Looks like the best solution for mine for the price to get 4” dust pickup and ability to do all cuts. Plus I liked the stand over having to hang the excelsior model since I don’t plan to move my saw often. May require some cutting or alteration similar to Rod but looking forward to having this tackled and ready to go.