Shaper questions

[Greg Parrish]

My new Felder KF500 Pro has a shaper unit built in. I’ve never owned or used a shaper so I’m working my way through the process of understanding how to use it, how it compliments my router table, and the best source for cutters (Felder ones are crazy expensive)

one thing ive found is places selling bushings to adapt 30mm and 1.25” cutters. Is this a valid approach, or are adapters a bad idea? Any sources for affordable but good quality cutters to get started? Any specific approaches that are better or easier on the shaper than the router?

I’m also still not certain if my shaper unit can use router bits or not but Thinking that it can’t.

Thanks for any pointers to get to get me moving in the right direction.

[mark mcfarlane]

Felder sells a spindle that will accommodate 1/2" router bits, but the cost ($866 for Feeder 700 series) is as much as a nice router table and lift.

Depending on where you live, used tooling may be a good choice. For hobby use, the heads that take replaceable knives get your 'per profile' cost down close to 1/2" router bits, after your initial investment in a good head.

I chose to go with a MAN rated head from Whitehall, but the cost of having to buy both profile knives and limiters essentially doubles your per profile cost and I have to run the head too slow due to the low rating on the Whitehall head and the screwy speeds that Minimax US machines run. Amana insert heads are popular in the US, and not outrageously expensive.

Before buying shaper tooling, look carefully at the max speed rating of the head and compare that to your machine's speed capabilities to avoid making the expensive mistake I made buying a head that doesn't match my machines capabilities well.

[Greg Parrish]

Mark, does that spindle fit all shaper units? For some reason I thought it had to be a certain type shaper unit that was an optional item in order to use the router collet adapter spindle. I have a nice Jessem router table but floor space is a premium. If I were able to use the shaper unit to do the same functions using my router bits it would prob be worth the cost as I could sell the router table and free up space. As a small hobby store I don’t mind the machine change over that the combo might require.

Thanks.




Felder sells a spindle that will accommodate 1/2" router bits, but the cost ($866 for Feeder 700 series) is as much as a nice router table and lift.

Depending on where you live, used tooling may be a good choice. For hobby use, the heads that take replaceable knives get your 'per profile' cost down close to 1/2" router bits, after your initial investment in a good head.

I chose to go with a MAN rated head from Whitehall, but the cost of having to buy both profile knives and limiters essentially doubles your per profile cost and I have to run the head too slow due to the low rating on the Whitehall head and the screwy speeds that Minimax US machines run. Amana insert heads are popular in the US, and not outrageously expensive.

Before buying shaper tooling, look carefully at the max speed rating of the head and compare that to your machine's speed capabilities to avoid making the expensive mistake I made buying a head that doesn't match my machines capabilities well.

[brent stanley]

Mark, does that spindle fit all shaper units? For some reason I thought it had to be a certain type shaper unit that was an optional item in order to use the router collet adapter spindle. I have a nice Jessem router table but floor space is a premium. If I were able to use the shaper unit to do the same functions using my router bits it would prob be worth the cost as I could sell the router table and free up space. As a small hobby store I don’t mind the machine change over that the combo might require.

Thanks.

Hi Greg, the problem Mark ran into primarily had to do with some odd decisions Minimax made with respect to RPM options running on 60HZ North American power. THat's not been an issue with any of the Felder machines I've looked at because they compensate for the 50/60hz power issue with either pully sizes or different motors. Long story short, they're smarter than MiniMax because the RPM options they leave you with are consistent with "industry standards" for tooling.

As a newbie I suggest you use Man rated, chip limiting tooling. Much safer and has been required in Europe for some time now.
As Mark suggest, come back with the RPM options you have just to double check. Once you get into it, you'll love your shaper....very versatile machine and you have a good one.

B

Edit: Just looked up your machine, and it seems you have great RPM options that will allow you to run a good assortment of tooling. As Mark suggest, the style of head that allows you to change the profile by changing the knives makes most sense for lower production users. While buying limiters does increase the cost, it also makes for much safer tooling. This would be a perfect head for your machine: http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=93 Page 93.

[Greg Parrish]

Thank you. So the idea with a shaper is to buy a head and then attach different profile blades to that head as opposed to a new head/bit for each profile like on a router? If so I haven’t been thinking in those terms and that changes my understanding of a shaper. LOL





Hi Greg, the problem Mark ran into primarily had to do with some odd decisions Minimax made with respect to RPM options running on 60HZ North American power. THat's not been an issue with any of the Felder machines I've looked at because they compensate for the 50/60hz power issue with either pully sizes or different motors. Long story short, they're smarter than MiniMax because the RPM options they leave you with are consistent with "industry standards" for tooling.

As a newbie I suggest you use Man rated, chip limiting tooling. Much safer and has been required in Europe for some time now.
As Mark suggest, come back with the RPM options you have just to double check. Once you get into it, you'll love your shaper....very versatile machine and you have a good one.

B

Edit: Just looked up your machine, and it seems you have great RPM options that will allow you to run a good assortment of tooling. As Mark suggest, the style of head that allows you to change the profile by changing the knives makes most sense for lower production users. While buying limiters does increase the cost, it also makes for much safer tooling. This would be a perfect head for your machine: http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=93 Page 93.

[Mike Cutler]

Greg

I'll try to answer from the perspective of a hobbiest/DIY'r. I'm definitely not an expert, but I have used shapers for many years. None quite as nice as yours.

QUOTE=Greg Parrish;2891695]My new Felder KF500 Pro has a shaper unit built in. I’ve never owned or used a shaper so I’m working my way through the process of understanding how to use it, how it compliments my router table, and the best source for cutters (Felder ones are crazy expensive)

One thing ive found is places selling bushings to adapt 30mm and 1.25” cutters. Is this a valid approach, or are adapters a bad idea?
This is a valid approach within reason. It does allow for some adaption of smaller diameter shaper spindles to utilize tooling that may not necessarily be made with a smaller bore, but cutter weight and diameter are the more important aspects.

Any sources for affordable but good quality cutters to get started? Any specific approaches that are better or easier on the shaper than the router?
I myself use Amana brazed carbide cutters that I buy from Amazon. They're not "cheap", but they also don't break the bank. Most of the cutters I've purchased have been straight cutters, or glue joint cutters. It's doubtful I will ever run enough material through one, except for maybe the 1/4" slot cutter, to worry about wearing them out. I also have a large assortment of cutters, and cabinet sets, that came with the machine, but I've yet to find a use for those other than a T&G set.
A nice rebate cutter, a T&G set, glue edge cutter and maybe a lock miter would be a start. I've also been looking at the CMT insert "system" for radius profiles.

I’m also still not certain if my shaper unit can use router bits or not but Thinking that it can’t.
I know that mine does, but the speed, in RPM,of a router bit in my shaper is too slow for any but the largest diameter router bits.

Thanks for any pointers to get to get me moving in the right direction.[/QUOTE]

Here are a few good links.

There was a thread on shapers a while back with a lot of good info. Here is the link;
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?270423-Educate-me-on-Shapers

There is also a good video for basic shaper operations on You Tube. Here is that link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n6yTHMBX54

Here is one from one of the folks here on the forum explaining shaper cutters;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mylYGzZC2yU

[mark mcfarlane]

Thank you. So the idea with a shaper is to buy a head and then attach different profile blades to that head as opposed to a new head/bit for each profile like on a router? If so I haven’t been thinking in those terms and that changes my understanding of a shaper. LOL

The 1/2" collet spindle I referenced is for the 700 series machines. Felder will have a different one for your machine.

Shaper tooling comes in a couple styles. You can purchase a head with fixed tooling that cuts one profile, or you can purchase a head that has interchangeable profile knives. The interchangeable-knives heads come in a couple slightly different formats, depending on how the knives mounts. Insert heads and single-profile heads are available in different steels and carbide. For a hobbyist the interchangeable-knives type head makes sense, running tens or hundreds of feet of a given profile. For a production shop running thousands of feet of the same door or moulding profile, a massive single profile head makes sense.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Mike and Mark

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Mike and Mark

Your welcome Greg. I went through the same quest and education about 6 months ago. I also have a nice, accurate router table and I tend to go there first if I can rout a profile rather than purchasing new tooling for the shaper. The shaper is faster (can do very heavy cuts in one pass) and cleaner, but old habits are hard to break.

[Mike Cutler]

Greg
If you have the space keep your router in the table. It gives you additional flexibility. A shaper does have a minimum cutter diameter simply because of the spindle size(s). A router can have a much,much, smaller diameter bit. Good for template work

If you should ever make your own cabinets, and doors, the shaper is just levels above a router in a table for that task. There is no comparison. I also bought a used power feeder this past December. It's nice. :D

[Mike Kees]

The first thing you will learn is the shaper itself is the cheap part. Cutters and cutterheads will quickly add up. A power feeder is also something that really should be included with the machine,it makes it way safer and consistent. My advice is to start with a" Euroblock"type cutterhead from CMT, or Amana. The knives are available in close to 100 profiles,HSS and relatively cheap. The heads themselves are simple to switch knives and a very safe design for holding knives. There is also MAN rated tooling that is a good idea if you will be feeding by hand. Brent already pointed you to Whitehill . These heads are a good place to start,you will not outgrow them.

[Greg Parrish]

I’m not sure about the power feeder yet but I understand your comments. I’d probably have to upgrade my power supply for that as I’m setup to only run my Oneida V3000 and one other 220v tool at a time. Looks like the power feeder would add another 220v motor that I would need capacity for, right?

thanks for all the info though. I’ll look at the other cutter heads you mentioned also.

[Greg Parrish]

Something like this Mike Kees? This is for making trim profiles but includes a bunch of blades as a kit. Says it fits 30mm.

https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-SCS-1002-Multi-Piece-Profile/dp/B000P4LWLM

[Jared Sankovich]

Something like this Mike Kees? This is for making trim profiles but includes a bunch of blades as a kit. Says it fits 30mm.

https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-SCS-1002-Multi-Piece-Profile/dp/B000P4LWLM

Unless you want all the specific profiles included, I've found it better to but the head and knives separately. Cmt knives are $14, I prefer amana heads.

[Jared Sankovich]

I’m not sure about the power feeder yet but I understand your comments. I’d probably have to upgrade my power supply for that as I’m setup to only run my Oneida V3000 and one other 220v tool at a time. Looks like the power feeder would add another 220v motor that I would need capacity for, right?

thanks for all the info though. I’ll look at the other cutter heads you mentioned also.

Feeders have very low power requirements. You wouldn't need more capacity unless you were over the limit already.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks. So cmt knives fit the Amana head? I can mix and match?


Unless you want all the specific profiles included, I've found it better to but the head and knives separately. Cmt knives are $14, I prefer amana heads.



Okay, thanks. I’m not over but do plan to upgrade the main wire running to my garage panel, so I’ll look into it at that point.


Feeders have very low power requirements. You wouldn't need more capacity unless you were over the limit already.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks. So cmt knives fit the Amana head? I can mix and match?





Okay, thanks. I’m not over but do plan to upgrade the main wire running to my garage panel, so I’ll look into it at that point.

Yes all 40mm and most 50mm pin knives fit. There is a standard spacing and numbering system the manufacturers stick to.

Basically a #83 profile will be the same regardless of who made it.

[Greg Parrish]

Oh, cool. In that case, Felder has a starter set for about the same price that might be another option provided other brand knives fit it.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/SET-Offer-Universal-Safety-Cutter-Head-oxid.html



Yes all 40mm and most 50mm pin knives fit. There is a standard spacing and numbering system the manufacturers stick to.

Basically a #83 profile will be the same regardless of who made it.

[Mike Kees]

Yes the knives are standard. That is the cutterhead I was talking about. Check out Routerbitworld for Amana and CMT.

[Phillip Gregory]

My new Felder KF500 Pro has a shaper unit built in. I’ve never owned or used a shaper so I’m working my way through the process of understanding how to use it, how it compliments my router table, and the best source for cutters (Felder ones are crazy expensive)

one thing ive found is places selling bushings to adapt 30mm and 1.25” cutters. Is this a valid approach, or are adapters a bad idea? Any sources for affordable but good quality cutters to get started? Any specific approaches that are better or easier on the shaper than the router?

I’m also still not certain if my shaper unit can use router bits or not but Thinking that it can’t.

Thanks for any pointers to get to get me moving in the right direction.

I looked at Felder's website for the unit you bought and like most European equipment makers' websites, there was a pretty limited amount of information. Standard equipment is a 4 hp motor with a 30 mm spindle, and Felder offered a range of spindles from 30 mm on up to 50 mm and with larger motors as well, which suggests (but without a manual or parts list I can't confirm) that the spindle bearings are larger than, say, a Delta HD, Powermatic 26/27/28 or a 3 hp Asian shaper and can likely handle 1 1/4" bore US standard tooling.

There is no problem with bushing up a spindle as long as the spindle bearings are suitable for the task. Get an assortment of short, long, and T bushings and you'll be fine. My Whitney 134 has enormous bearings (6311 and 6308) but came with the then-industry-standard 1 1/8" spindle top, so it requires being bushed up to 1 1/4" to run modern tooling, which it runs perfectly well. The thing you don't want to do is use bushings to run larger 1 1/4" tooling on a smaller shaper such as a 3 hp import or a Delta HD that only came with 3/4" or 1" spindles, and then take heavy cuts with the 1 1/4" tooling. You'll destroy the bearings pretty quickly doing that.

Generally running router bits on a shaper doesn't work well as most shapers turn too slowly to run router bits well. Many shapers top out at 10,000 rpm while routers go up to 23,000 rpm. A variable speed router with a 1/2" collet typically has a minimum speed of 10,000-13,000 rpm, so if you want to see how well a shaper would run a router bit, turn your router's speed all of the way down and see how it does. In my experience, unless you're running a large profile bit or a panel raiser, that slow of a speed leads to poor results. And if you are running a big profile bit or a panel raiser, you are much better off running that as a shaper cutter rather than a colleted router bit as the larger shaper cutter is more stable and gives a better surface finish. I use my router for small router bits and my shaper with shaper cutters for everything else.

What cutters you get depends on what you do. In general, a Euroblock head that can take the standard 40 mm and 50 mm steel knives is very useful, as is a carbide rabbeting/straight cutter for rabbets. I have a small number of brazed carbide straight cutters for grooving and cutting tenons, they are handy. If you make cabinets or doors, a set of appropriate stacked cutters would be helpful as well. I would only buy tooling when you need it, else you'll end up with some barely-used or never-used tooling in your shop that you thought you would use but never actually did.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks everyone. I’m going to bookmark this info and circle back later for reference.

[brent stanley]

Something like this Mike Kees? This is for making trim profiles but includes a bunch of blades as a kit. Says it fits 30mm.

https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-SCS-1002-Multi-Piece-Profile/dp/B000P4LWLM


Hi Greg, a couple of issues related to that head from my perspective.

- It's not MAN rated which means it wouldn't be legal for use in much of Europe due to safety reasons. I understand not everyone is concerned about that, and that's fine by me, but for a manually operated machine for a relative newbie, I suggest something MAN rated.

- The assortment of knives that come with the head are typically less practical than they seem at first glance. You will often end up with knives that you will never use unfortunately and I support Jared's idea of resisting the temptation of these sets. The only company I know of that will let YOU pick the knives and give a discount for sets is Whitehill.

Many of these 40mm heads use the same standard pin spacing (24mm) and diameter (6mm) and will take the 40mm knives that are commonly available here as well as the 50mm knives mentioned.....however, I just noticed on the CMT web page that they don't recommend the 50mm knives in their 40mm head....they've changed the language from an old catalogue I have to be much more waffly and non-committal. Wondering if the aluminum head can't handle the additional load of milling 50mm of profile?

Also, the commonly available 40mm knives that are sold by Felder, CMT and Dimar are all made by the same company in Germany and wholesaled to these companies for retail to us. The steel and grinding accuracy will sometimes let you down as they are mass produced and cheap, but I own many and they have their role in a shop but I will get a set ground in superior steel if I need longer runs.

I use this sort of kit all the time, so feel free to fire away any questions!

Brent

[Rod Sheridan]

My new Felder KF500 Pro has a shaper unit built in. I’ve never owned or used a shaper so I’m working my way through the process of understanding how to use it, how it compliments my router table, and the best source for cutters (Felder ones are crazy expensive)

one thing ive found is places selling bushings to adapt 30mm and 1.25” cutters. Is this a valid approach, or are adapters a bad idea? Any sources for affordable but good quality cutters to get started? Any specific approaches that are better or easier on the shaper than the router?

I’m also still not certain if my shaper unit can use router bits or not but Thinking that it can’t.

Thanks for any pointers to get to get me moving in the right direction.

Hi Greg, if your machine has the MF spindle you can buy different sizes for it.

There’s nothing wrong with using sleeves to change diameters, I have the 1.25 and30mm sleeves for mine.

I have purchased tooling from Felder when it is on sale, especially the 30mm stuff.

I always suggest that people purchase a carbide rebate head 125mm, a Euroblock head with chip limiters to run HSS knives, and a groover.

If you have the 30mm spindle you can share tooling with the saw which is a money saver.

Too bad you’re not closer you could attend the Felder Canada shaper seminar......Rod

[brent stanley]

Hi Greg, if your machine has the MF spindle you can buy different sizes for it.

There’s nothing wrong with using sleeves to change diameters, I have the 1.25 and30mm sleeves for mine.

I have purchased tooling from Felder when it is on sale, especially the 30mm stuff.

I always suggest that people purchase a carbide rebate head 125mm, a Euroblock head with chip limiters to run HSS knives, and a Grover.

If you have the 30mm spindle you can share tooling with the saw which is a money saver.

Too bad you’re not closer you could attend the Felder Canada shaper seminar......Rod


The only thing I would add to Rod's list of tooling is a limiter-style panel raiser......if you expect to make any raised panels that is! With rebate block, limiter head, an adjustable groover and a panel raiser, you can perform 95% of the common shaper operations. I have the combi head from Whitehill which gives you a 125mm rebate block with spurs and shear cut knives, as well as a Euroblock head in one for significant cost savings. It's professional calibre kit with direct-from-manufacturer pricing. Page 93 gives you 2 options: http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=93

B

[ChrisA Edwards]

Too bad you’re not closer you could attend the Felder Canada shaper seminar......Rod

I did a google search but couldn't find any info on this Felder event, can you tell me where, when and how much this seminar is, thanks.

Also, I've tried to find info on the MAN specifications and how these limiter blades work. I understand the safety concepts, but do you not get a certain amount of bounce as you feed the work into the cutter?

Brent's videos have been the most educational I can find.

[brent stanley]

I did a google search but couldn't find any info on this Felder event, can you tell me where, when and how much this seminar is, thanks.

Also, I've tried to find info on the MAN specifications and how these limiter blades work. I understand the safety concepts, but do you not get a certain amount of bounce as you feed the work into the cutter?

Brent's videos have been the most educational I can find.


Hi Chris, thank you for the kind words. I've been working on improving my videos and now when I look back on my older ones, the amount of "umms" and "ahhhs" drive me crazy! Glad they aren't too distracting. I'm doing a video on limiter style panel raisers today...hope it'll be better.

Here are a couple of helpful links that gives some details:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/tooling.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

Roundform cutters can have a larger projection (up to 3mm) than limiter style, but the actual amount is decided on by a kickback test performed by the manufacturer.

Nice because it shows some older tooling that's no longer allowed.

The limiters that are ahead of the knives actually never contact the wood unless you have fed the stock way too fast. Some people are concerned that limiter tooling will not allow decent feed speeds, but that is not a concern at all. You can very easily feed limiter tooling fast enough to give a horrible finish, with prominent knife marks long before you start smacking into the backs of the limiters.

Cheers,

Brent

[ChrisA Edwards]

The limiters that are ahead of the knives actually never contact the wood unless you have fed the stock way too fast.
Brent

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation.

I'm still searching for a used Shaper on eBay and Craigslist, but it's looking more like I'll probably spring for a new one.

I got a quote from Felder for a Hammer F3, but I'm not sure I can justify twice the price of a Jet 5HP/1P unit.

So this thread is very helpful in further educating me the cutters and heads.available and I thank all.

[Carl Beckett]

I always suggest that people purchase a carbide rebate head 125mm, a Euroblock head with chip limiters to run HSS knives, and a Grover.



I recently took a step into this and found this to be excellent advice.

Just this weekend was cutting grooves for panels. Normally would have done this using a dado on a tablesaw (router table would be another option, but would be slow and likely require multi passes). Plus I had a bad experience with dado'ing along the edge of a board once.

The adjustable groover (Amana) was exceptional to use. Not cheap (tooling is the biggest limiter of getting into shaper work imo!). But I will likely leave it in the machine ongoing... can already tell it will get plenty of use.

[Rod Sheridan]

I did a google search but couldn't find any info on this Felder event, can you tell me where, when and how much this seminar is, thanks.

Also, I've tried to find info on the MAN specifications and how these limiter blades work. I understand the safety concepts, but do you not get a certain amount of bounce as you feed the work into the cutter?

Brent's videos have been the most educational I can find.

Hi, the Felder seminars are May 25 for band saw and jointer planer, September 21 for format saw and shaper.

Seminars are at no cost and a light lunch is provided. The reason they haven't been announced is that I've just set the dates...The location is Felder Canada in Toronto. Does Felder USA run seminars?

As for the chip limiters hitting the wood, the chip thickness would have to be greater than 1mm. If you do a calculation of 1mm X 2 knives X 6,000RPM you have 12,000mm per minute or 12 metres per minute feed speed. so if you don't push faster that 12 metres per minute you're fine. That is a ridiculous feed speed for good quality finish, you're normally somewhere around 6 metres or less.

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation.

I'm still searching for a used Shaper on eBay and Craigslist, but it's looking more like I'll probably spring for a new one.

I got a quote from Felder for a Hammer F3, but I'm not sure I can justify twice the price of a Jet 5HP/1P unit.

So this thread is very helpful in further educating me the cutters and heads.available and I thank all.

Hi, I do not know what you can justify of course, the 2 things I would say however is that having a sliding table, and a tilting spindle provide an enormous increase in what you can do with the shaper.

The tilting spindle allows you to use your rebate head to produce any bevel you wish, up to 45 degrees. Tilting the spindle also changes all molding profiles which can be used to tweak profiles.

The sliding table is fantastic for coping or cutting tenons, tenon hoods and tables are available for the F3 (I use the tenon hood and table often, sometimes with saw blades).

Here's an image of a HSS knife I use in the Euroblock head to make raised panels.

402201

Regards, Rod.

[Carl Beckett]

Rod (others), what tooling and method are you using for tenons?

[brent stanley]

Rod (others), what tooling and method are you using for tenons?


I was all set up with tenon discs for tenons up to 5.5" or so but when I discovered the combi head which is designed for coping one side at a time, I switched to that. If I was high production though, I would use tenon discs...once all set up, they are fast and consistent. The combi head coupled with a stub spindle allows for lower power, lighter machines to mill full-length, solid tenons like the big boys, just slower.

Top of page 93: http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=93

B

[brent stanley]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation.

I'm still searching for a used Shaper on eBay and Craigslist, but it's looking more like I'll probably spring for a new one.

I got a quote from Felder for a Hammer F3, but I'm not sure I can justify twice the price of a Jet 5HP/1P unit.

So this thread is very helpful in further educating me the cutters and heads.available and I thank all.

Hi Chris, as Rod says, the Hammer will give you more in the way of very valuable features, but it is also a much more refined and stout machine. I expect on paper the 5HP jet may have more power, but I have no doubts that the Hammer is a more capable machine.....don't let HP ratings fool you.

B

[ChrisA Edwards]

Hi, I do not know what you can justify of course, the 2 things I would say however is that having a sliding table, and a tilting spindle provide an enormous increase in what you can do with the shaper.

Regards, Rod.

Thank You, this will be my first Shaper. I would like to get the best I can afford and only do it once. I'm hoping to sell one of my Ducati's and flip that cash into the Shaper.

I'm leaning towards staying single phase, so that gets me a 4Hp-5HP machine. I'm constantly scouring eBay and Craigslist and watching for auction in my local area. My problem, I'm new to this and don't know what are good use make and models so I'm a little wary of dropping $2K-$5K on something used.

I will buy a power feeder, most likely new. I figure around $1300'ish for that.

The Hammer is probably at the top of what I want to spend new. I like the sliding table and tilting spindle option and the only other unit I see is the Grizzly ($4K) that offers these features, but I can't find any reviews on it, these's one on craigslist right now.

This is going to be for hobbyist use. The wife does want new kitchen cabinet doors and drawer fronts, so that gives me an excuse. She doesn't know that I could probably do those on my router table, but she'll be happy I'm getting rid of a motorcycle and getting an upgraded kitchen to boot.

[Mike Cutler]

Ducati, or Shaper?
I'm having trouble with this one. Nice bike!!!:cool:
Well, you do have more than one Ducati, so maybe I can see it.;)

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod (others), what tooling and method are you using for tenons?

Hi Carl, this is the adjustable groover I use for slots and tenon cutting.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Slot-cutter/Adjustable-Slotting-Cutters-RB-HW.html

I cut both cheeks of the tenon in one pass using a spacer..............Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thank You, this will be my first Shaper. I would like to get the best I can afford and only do it once. I'm hoping to sell one of my Ducati's and flip that cash into the Shaper.

I'm leaning towards staying single phase, so that gets me a 4Hp-5HP machine. I'm constantly scouring eBay and Craigslist and watching for auction in my local area. My problem, I'm new to this and don't know what are good use make and models so I'm a little wary of dropping $2K-$5K on something used.

I will buy a power feeder, most likely new. I figure around $1300'ish for that.

The Hammer is probably at the top of what I want to spend new. I like the sliding table and tilting spindle option and the only other unit I see is the Grizzly ($4K) that offers these features, but I can't find any reviews on it, these's one on craigslist right now.

This is going to be for hobbyist use. The wife does want new kitchen cabinet doors and drawer fronts, so that gives me an excuse. She doesn't know that I could probably do those on my router table, but she'll be happy I'm getting rid of a motorcycle and getting an upgraded kitchen to boot.
At least you get to keep one Duc.

I always loved Ducati's and Motto Guzzi's, however I've stuck with BMW, Norton and a James as my EU bikes..........Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

200 or 250 mm version?


Hi Carl, this is the adjustable groover I use for slots and tenon cutting.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Slot-cutter/Adjustable-Slotting-Cutters-RB-HW.html

I cut both cheeks of the tenon in one pass using a spacer..............Regards, Rod.


i emailed Whitehill a few questions about their combi head. I kind of like that approach for my first piece since it can serve two functions. I can always buy one or the other function separately later if I decide separates are more useful as long as the whitehill doesn’t compromise any quality that the others would give.

[Rod Sheridan]

200 or 250 mm version?

200, sorry for not mentioning that..............Rod

[Jared Sankovich]

Thank You, this will be my first Shaper. I would like to get the best I can afford and only do it once. I'm hoping to sell one of my Ducati's and flip that cash into the Shaper.

I'm leaning towards staying single phase, so that gets me a 4Hp-5HP machine. I'm constantly scouring eBay and Craigslist and watching for auction in my local area. My problem, I'm new to this and don't know what are good use make and models so I'm a little wary of dropping $2K-$5K on something used.

I will buy a power feeder, most likely new. I figure around $1300'ish for that.

The Hammer is probably at the top of what I want to spend new. I like the sliding table and tilting spindle option and the only other unit I see is the Grizzly ($4K) that offers these features, but I can't find any reviews on it, these's one on craigslist right now.

This is going to be for hobbyist use. The wife does want new kitchen cabinet doors and drawer fronts, so that gives me an excuse. She doesn't know that I could probably do those on my router table, but she'll be happy I'm getting rid of a motorcycle and getting an upgraded kitchen to boot.

I have the grizzly tilting sliding shaper. It cuts ok, but is awful to set up and use.

[brent stanley]

200 or 250 mm version?




i emailed Whitehill a few questions about their combi head. I kind of like that approach for my first piece since it can serve two functions. I can always buy one or the other function separately later if I decide separates are more useful as long as the whitehill doesn’t compromise any quality that the others would give.


Hi Greg, the large combi head is a fully featured rebate block with no compromises as well as a fully featured limiter head with no compromises. I've heard is said that removing the HSS knives when you need to use it as a rebate block is a problem, but you really should remove the HSS knives when you're finished using them anyway and brush them and the block off, so it's no actual difference in the real world. The carbide knives don't need to be removed to run the block with HSS knives installed....the block is designed so they and the spurs do not interfere.

B

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks. I don’t mind changing blades between functions. I move so slow as a hobbies that it is not a big deal. Besides, I can always pick up a second one and make each dedicated one way or the other. I will need to call or email them to find out about the flush fit version. Too late now I guess given the time difference. :)


Hi Greg, the large combi head is a fully featured rebate block with no compromises as well as a fully featured limiter head with no compromises. I've heard is said that removing the HSS knives when you need to use it as a rebate block is a problem, but you really should remove the HSS knives when you're finished using them anyway and brush them and the block off, so it's no actual difference in the real world. The carbide knives don't need to be removed to run the block with HSS knives installed....the block is designed so they and the spurs do not interfere.

B


Also, any issue with using a 110v power feeder in a hobby wood shop for the shaper I have? Would be easier for my to make that work with my power setup than the 220v models. Looks like there are some options at 110v but not sure what I really need to look for feature wise for these.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks. I don’t mind changing blades between functions. I move so slow as a hobbies that it is not a big deal. Besides, I can always pick up a second one and make each dedicated one way or the other. I will need to call or email them to find out about the flush fit version. Too late now I guess given the time difference. :)




Also, any issue with using a 110v power feeder in a hobby wood shop for the shaper I have? Would be easier for my to make that work with my power setup than the 220v models. Looks like there are some options at 110v but not sure what I really need to look for feature wise for these.

Greg, the feeder voltage has no effect on the performance of it, choose the voltage that works best for you.....Rod

[Greg Parrish]

Additional question for you guys. I have a quote from whitehill on the combi block. It says it is a 55mm block. The Felder rebate is 50mm and the Felder euroblock is 40mm. What knives fit what? The whitehill knives indicate fitting the 55mm block but will 40mm knives fit it? How universal is this stuff? Getting a set of knives from England every time will be costly and require extra steps and time.

Still trying to to wrap my head around this stuff. Thanks.

[brent stanley]

Additional question for you guys. I have a quote from whitehill on the combi block. It says it is a 55mm block. The Felder rebate is 50mm and the Felder euroblock is 40mm. What knives fit what? The whitehill knives indicate fitting the 55mm block but will 40mm knives fit it? How universal is this stuff? Getting a set of knives from England every time will be costly and require extra steps and time.

Still trying to to wrap my head around this stuff. Thanks.

Hi Greg, the block is 50mm, but the knives are 55mm which leaves a tiny bit above and below by design. Nomenclature and terminology takes a while to get your head around!

The carbide spurs and knives are industry standard, available anywhere. The little 40mm knives readily available over here won't work with the big combi head because the big combi head is designed for larger knives and holds on to more of the knife within the body of the block. I haven't looked into it, but I think the 50mm knives would be the same story, however I notice on the CMT web site that they don't suggest rumming the 50mm knives in their 40mm head anyway. However the small combi head is perfect for those 40mm knives as well as whitehill's 55mm knives and though I would have to verify, I expect it would run the 50mm knives too. Sorry, it's all very confusing!

I've never had a problem with a Felder product or the staff, but everything I've ever bought from them took at least a couple of weeks to get as it came from overseas including just knives. They don't make the blocks and knives they sell.

Whenever I purchase an "off-the-shelf" item from Whitehill it's in my mailbox in 4-5 days, and if they aren't swamped, custom profiles will only take a couple more as their automated grinders run 24/7.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Brent. Just spoke to Barbara at Whitehill to place my order and pay. She was very nice and mentioned numerous sales in last day to people from our forum. I won’t name any names but they were very familiar with your name as a regular patron. :)

i ordered the flush mount block, extra rebate and scribe blades and only one set of profile knives, a simple R22 roundover blade. Since I can order additional blades online myself I wanted to keep the initial purchase of the block simple until I get going.

One thing that strikes me humorous is that when you look up their address on apple maps a Pizza Hut shows up right across the street from their location. I guess I still don’t expect to see US corporations planted all over the globe for some reason.

Also....... My first international call. Very exciting. LOL

[brent stanley]

Thanks Brent. Just spoke to Barbara at Whitehill to place my order and pay. She was very nice and mentioned numerous sales in last day to people from our forum. I won’t name any names but they were very familiar with your name as a regular patron. :)

i ordered the flush mount block, extra rebate and scribe blades and only one set of profile knives, a simple R22 roundover blade. Since I can order additional blades online myself I wanted to keep the initial purchase of the block simple until I get going.

One thing that strikes me humorous is that when you look up their address on apple maps a Pizza Hut shows up right across the street from their location. I guess I still don’t expect to see US corporations planted all over the globe for some reason.

Also....... My first international call. Very exciting. LOL

What's funny is my wife even knows about most of my purchases!

We did a top to bottom Reno of an old 1800s era house and decided to take the time to match the original mouldings where needed so I bought a lot of knives from them for my combi heads over a couple of years. Crown moulding, 2 kinds of casing, doors, wainscotting, 2 kinds of baseboards, chair rail, windowsills and even some T&G flooring. We ended up selling the place in 10 hours or something ridiculous like that and I was really surprised at the number of people who noticed and commented that we took the time to do that. I really didn't think that many folks would notice, and though we'll never know for sure, we both suspect we got our money back including shop time to manufacture it all so that's cool.

Keep us posted on how you make out,

Brent

[Greg Parrish]

Now that I’m finally getting my shop finished up, I just ordered one of these 200mm slot cutters while they one sale with Felder. I previously ordered the Whitehill combi block that covers my rebate head. Hopefully this covers my bases to do tenons and other basic shaper tasks.

Boy it seems like it has taken me a long time to get to this point. I spent all weekend finishing up dust lines, power connections, air compressor lines, etc. all I lack for my next available weekend day is to replace the scales on my KF500 (mm to inch) and calibrate them, and I should be back building. :)




Hi Carl, this is the adjustable groover I use for slots and tenon cutting.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Slot-cutter/Adjustable-Slotting-Cutters-RB-HW.html

I cut both cheeks of the tenon in one pass using a spacer..............Regards, Rod.