Entry Door Shaper Cutter set, Tongue and Groove

[Ben Abate]

Hello All,

I was looking for a set of entry door/passage door tongue and groove cutter set. I know I can use an adjustable groover and a set of tenon cutters but I'd like to see what is available. I'm a bit surprised that there are not a lot available at least in my search I've not found any. I guess because most builders use the set I mentioned above.

Any suggestions on what you use or what you might have seen?

Thank you
Ben

Maybe I should be a bit more specific, craftsman style or flat panel prairie style passage doors.

[Mike Kees]

Ben I just purchased an entry door set for mission/shaker style doors from Freeborn .

[Ben Abate]

Hi Mike,
I was just on their site. I find their catalog a bit confusing to understand. I'm sure it's me not used to how they organize their product pages. Can you tell me what part no. you purchased? Also, is it adjustable with regards to the center panel or can a wider cutter be added later for a wider groove? The immediate need is interior passage doors but later I on I need to build a few thicker 2" with sealed glass panels or at least glass panels with a rubber seal. I do not what to spend the money on Rangate whom i know have a very nice product, I have a few

Thanks Mike,

Ben

Mike did you purchase brazed or insert

Ben I just purchased an entry door set for mission/shaker style doors from Freeborn .

[Mike Kees]

OK so the one i bought is PC 11-500. In freeborn speak the "p" is pro series (1 1/4"). "C" is carbide tipped. Yes they are brazed cutters. Looking at the catalog ,these profiles are made for 1 3/4" thickness. These are an eight piece set ,so there is two options for the center groove included . There is also option at time of purchase to adjust the diameter of the center groover for either 1/2" or 5/8' depth of cut. I am sure that if you need cutters that are not in catalog they would make them in the same common diameter as your set and any thickness required.I just purchased a used shaper that came with a ton of tooling,in that bunch is also an Amana set for interior doors with an ogee profile. So maybe check out Amana as well. Mike.

[Mike Kees]

Just re read my post.. forgot that the groovers with set make 1/4" or 1/2" grooves for 1 3/8'' or 1 3/4" doors respectively.

[David Kumm]

I've used the Freeborn entry sets for years. Easy to set up because the tongue is sized and trimmed to length. I run the 5/8". The panel tongue is 7/16" and I put a few pieces of 1/4" OD tubing to center and cushion the panels. Floating tenons - 5/8" thick. I use the same set for cabinet doors when I'm running 1 1/16" door frames. The heavier profile looks good to me. After about 30 entry doors and as many cabinet doors, the set needs sharpening but it has served me well. Dave

[brent stanley]

Hi Ben, unless I was planning on making dozens and dozens of doors or more, I wouldn't get a carbide head dedicated to that purpose. It's a lot of money for a few doors. I would just get HSS knives for a Euroblock head in the profile I wanted with panel thickness I want. Once you own the head, the knives are cheap. For thicker doors with glass, I'd just have another set made if they weren't available off the shelf.

This approach leaves you limited in tenon length due to projection limits, but a lot of people are using shorter tenons these days.

[Ben Abate]

Thank you Mike for the reply, I'll look into that set.

David, that's nice to know that the cutters can be used on a slightly less thick door as you mentioned. I have a two sets of insert cutters heads for entry/passage doors but not in the style I'm looking to use this time. I was hoping to use one of my cabinet door cutter heads but I decided to use a 1 3/8" thickness on these particular closet doors. And as I mentioned in the near future I need to make two 1 3/4" doors with tempered glass full panels.

Brent,
I will look into your suggestion. I have a euro block style cutter head i use once in awhile but off hand I don't remember the height of it. It might only be 30 or 40 mm. I remember I once looked a Schmitt cutter head like this I think. I didn't think this type of cutter head could handle the task but I guess in multiple cuts it could. It would be nice to get out of this one without spending a bunch of cash on a cutter head I'll only use for 6 doors.

Like I was saying in my original post I thought of just using one of my adjustable cutter head and then mounting the tenon cutters. That's all good when you're doing one door. And I'll most likely use the Domino XL 700 to reinforce the rail and stile intersection

Brent any suggestion on who makes the head and knives you suggested?

Fellows thank you for suggestions I'm open to anything else you might like to contribute.


Ben

[Richard Coers]

How many doors do you plan on building? If only 1 or 2, I wouldn't even groove the rails and stiles. I'd apply molding on one side, lipped over the edge of the frame to register, drop in the panels, then add molding to the other side. Also gives you the option of screwing on the molding, or adding 1/4" foam insulation between two thin panels. No trouble fitting all that into a groove.

[brent stanley]

Thank you Mike for the reply, I'll look into that set.

David, that's nice to know that the cutters can be used on a slightly less thick door as you mentioned. I have a two sets of insert cutters heads for entry/passage doors but not in the style I'm looking to use this time. I was hoping to use one of my cabinet door cutter heads but I decided to use a 1 3/8" thickness on these particular closet doors. And as I mentioned in the near future I need to make two 1 3/4" doors with tempered glass full panels.

Brent,
I will look into your suggestion. I have a euro block style cutter head i use once in awhile but off hand I don't remember the height of it. It might only be 30 or 40 mm. I remember I once looked a Schmitt cutter head like this I think. I didn't think this type of cutter head could handle the task but I guess in multiple cuts it could. It would be nice to get out of this one without spending a bunch of cash on a cutter head I'll only use for 6 doors.

Like I was saying in my original post I thought of just using one of my adjustable cutter head and then mounting the tenon cutters. That's all good when you're doing one door. And I'll most likely use the Domino XL 700 to reinforce the rail and stile intersection

Brent any suggestion on who makes the head and knives you suggested?

Fellows thank you for suggestions I'm open to anything else you might like to contribute.


Ben

Hi Ben, you read my mind regarding reinforcing the joint. I use full depth rail and stile doors, sometimes with pegged tenons if the style suits it, but I know folks are using shorter ones with long Dominos for a little extra.

I'd have to look to be sure, but I expect your Euroblock head wouldn't support the proper knife stock for the type of profile we're talking about. What machine are you running? Just wondering how large a head you can run.

Brent

[Ben Abate]

Brent,

I have a Felder that can do 220 mm in the table 7.5hp. Yes the euro block I have is 100 mm diameter head with a 30mm bore (I also have a 1 1/4" spindle), the knives are 40mm. I double a knife is made for my particular need for that head. It's a Felder/Leitz I head. I once had a mortising machine but sold it because I wasn't using it enough and I liked the idea of bringing the machine to the work (as you do with the Domino) instead of bringing the work to the machine. I'm pretty casual about my work these days.

I've built a few big mahogany doors using the tenon head and adjustable head. I'm trying to work a bit smarter, I'd rather set it up, write it down in my book and have the process available for the next time. I have a few things going on tomorrow but maybe Sunday I'll try to look at Schmitt and Byrd I can't think of anyone other companies off hand, I know there are but I can't think of any right now. If not i'll spend some time looking at the cutters that Mike purchased and David recommended.

If I could find what you are talking about or a company like Amana I'd go that way just because I'm not going to be using much. Like my big expensive euro insert heads that I once used often they sort of sit around now also.

I appreciate the advice and help

Ben

[Jared Sankovich]

If you already have a groover and a couple rebate / tenon heads, I would use them. Setup is just as long as a dedicated head. The alternative would be a 50mm tongue and groove knife set for your euro block. Cmt knives are about $23/ pair for the 50mm knives (10mmx16mm tongue iirc)

[brent stanley]

Brent,

I have a Felder that can do 220 mm in the table 7.5hp. Yes the euro block I have is 100 mm diameter head with a 30mm bore (I also have a 1 1/4" spindle), the knives are 40mm. I double a knife is made for my particular need for that head. It's a Felder/Leitz I head. I once had a mortising machine but sold it because I wasn't using it enough and I liked the idea of bringing the machine to the work (as you do with the Domino) instead of bringing the work to the machine. I'm pretty casual about my work these days.

I've built a few big mahogany doors using the tenon head and adjustable head. I'm trying to work a bit smarter, I'd rather set it up, write it down in my book and have the process available for the next time. I have a few things going on tomorrow but maybe Sunday I'll try to look at Schmitt and Byrd I can't think of anyone other companies off hand, I know there are but I can't think of any right now. If not i'll spend some time looking at the cutters that Mike purchased and David recommended.

If I could find what you are talking about or a company like Amana I'd go that way just because I'm not going to be using much. Like my big expensive euro insert heads that I once used often they sort of sit around now also.

I appreciate the advice and help

Ben

Hi Ben, you have a good sized machine and lots of options! That euroblock you have is a great thing in the arsenal because it'll give you the ability to work pieces on the smaller end with knives that are correspondingly cheaper. I have one too and wouldn't be without it.

But for the cost of of that Freeborn head you could buy a larger Euroblock (that will take an infinite variety of off-the-shelf profiles and custom) and a couple sets of knives and have a lot of money leftover. Whitehill treated me very well when I first got going years ago and I now own a lot of their kit and it's never let me down. Direct from manufacturer pricing and they're a SMC sponsor to boot! I'd probably get this head as it's very versatile (http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=7) unless you don't yet have a rebate block yet in which case I'd get this head (http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=93) as you get a shear-cut rebate block with at the same time for a cost savings over separate. The one on the bottom of page 93.

If you were to do a number of doors at the same time in a production run, then taking the time to set up as Jared suggests is what I would do, but I think your interest in a quicker set-up with one set of knives for short runs is understandable.

I did a video about the head on page 93 after I got a million questions about it one time after a presentation. The one on page 7 is essentially the same but without the rebate block.

https://youtu.be/1Z7DMBfzluY

Fire off any questions you might have.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

We’ve done square edge cabinet and house doors for many years and pretty much prefer what Jared describes using adj groovers and stacked groovers or rebate heads for the tenons. The carbide inserts and knickers cut very clean and these cutters are used for many other tasks. We keep setup sheets for different shim thickness that makes setup easy. I like the flexibility of the adjustable groovers and ability to shim the tenon cutters. Makes it possible to do a wide range of doors.

The front right cutter is a Garniga multiuse we use for stub tenons and next to it a 15 to 30 adj groover. These are the most used. Next to the groover is a 250 diameter adj groover we use in the sliding saw but also use it in the shaper for true tenons. I have bigger disks but this one fits in my shaper fences for quick setup without putting on the tenon hood.

402050
Going left is a Felder (Stark) 12mm groover we used for years with 2 Felder rebate heads for the copes. Next to that is a Sthele HSS groover we used with 2 stacked Sthele cutters for the copes. These type groovers are cheap but do not cut well like the ones with knickers. We used to climb cut with this one. Not a good idea. I do not like HSS for this type tooling.

Back left is a nice insert cutter I had made that does the groove and the entire edge and at the same time eases the edge of the groove. It also can put eased edges on the style faces for Euro type doors. It’s fully adjustable but a little tricky to set up. Taking the whole edge is good if you do not have the capacity to get a clean S4S of your blanks.
next to that one is a Great Lakes insert head that is dedicated for a 3/4” X1/2” groove taking the whole edge and easing the panel groove. This came with a profiler I picked up. It cuts well and easy to set but limited to that one cut.
the other cutters in the back are on a sleeve and 50mm bore for the tenoner. The sleeves are adjustable but a bit time consuming to take apart and change.
Front 3 to the right are most used.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Joe, thank you taking the time to post the photos. Most helpful. Patrick

[brent stanley]

Hi Ben, I would guess Joe's got $10k in cutters in his picture there!

Essentially what I was suggesting would be the equivalent of his Great Lakes insert head (second from back left), except it would have HSS knives ground exactly to your specs (if not available off the shelf) in a head that can be used for an infinite variety of other profiles. Just take your HSS knives out and put in new ones with any profile under the sun.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Ben, I would guess Joe's got $10k in cutters in his picture there!


B

Brent, actually just a little more than 1/2 that. I would like to see some pictures of how you are making square edge doors in your shop? We have made these almost daily for the last 40 years and have found the adjustable groover stacked heads for tenoning or coping is a good solution long term for shops that do a variety of work. And these heads are used for many other tasks as well.

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t have near the experience of Joe and probably many hear but imop Ben Im in the adjustable groovers camp on this one.

As joe saiz the intimate adjustiblity coupled with a digital readout “I assume you have” and a pair of calipers and a note pad make them the perfect tool for the job and many many others. The knickers vrs braised tooling truly is all the selling point I need.

Plus they really are not all that expensive in the size you would need for the tongue and groove your looking to run. I know you said no to Rangate but they have a adjustable groovers with knicker and knives that can be changed out to put a bevel, chamfer, roundover whatever on your workpiece. Or you can take it off and get a square edge.

I understand people don’t want to spend for one project for insert cutters but in the case of the task at hand and the many uses of these cutters I think it’s well worth the Investment.

[Joe Calhoon]

The plus to using groovers and stacked rebate heads is they are useful for many other things. And the replacement inserts can be purchased anywhere. you don't have to send to Europe for cutters and matching limiters. A 15 to 30 adj can also be used for the tenon cut on some door thickness so for certain thickness one cutter can be used. To cover cabinet and house door square edge work you really need a couple ranges of groover. Early on we just used a couple of the Felder Z2 rebate heads that were on their Christmas sale for the stacked tenon- cope part.

Adj groovers and rebate heads are now pretty much a generic product and available in many price ranges. Yes, my Garniga and Zuani heads are top of the line and have many additional features but simple ones like Amana and others sell will do the job. If you do go dedicated heads I think the ones Freeborn makes are probably very nice and accurate. My experience with them in the past has been good.

[Warren Lake]

a table saw would do it
a shaper with a table saw blade would do it
a shaper with two table saw blade and a spacer would do it better once set up, yes you have one more to the shoulder


Anyone using Schmidt coping discs say the 9" ones with Corrugated? There are no you tubes on the fish net. No side cutters with that but the knife also bevelled cut on the side should work. I have cutters done that way not as good as the side spur but still worked fine. Id think you could cut a number of doors depending on the material before its getting dull and you can hone corrugated razor sharp easily.

[brent stanley]

Brent, actually just a little more than 1/2 that. I would like to see some pictures of how you are making square edge doors in your shop? We have made these almost daily for the last 40 years and have found the adjustable groover stacked heads for tenoning or coping is a good solution long term for shops that do a variety of work. And these heads are used for many other tasks as well.

Hi Joe, I would use one of my adjustable groovers and rebate block with a stub arbour to produce full length tenons followed by a trip to the mortiser. Depending on circumstances I might use double discs. However, what I would do is immaterial because we weren't asked about what WE would do......we were asked about single head solutions. And it's my understanding that the OP is not a commercial shop so cheap but effective is where I was thinking. It's my understanding that something akin to the Great Lakes head you showed a pic of is what we were asked to offer advice on, so that's why I am. It's my opinion that a euroblock with knives suited to he desired profile would be financially palatable, plus you'd own the euroblock for a million other potential uses down the line.

[Ben Abate]

Good morning fellows,

I'm quite pleased with the response this thread has generated. In my original post I mentioned the use of an adjustable groover and two 220mm tenon cutters and I see some of the professionals have a deeper commitment to them. I believe I even have a 300mm adjustable that I've only used a few times because I had to build a temporary hood for. I've used this setup a few times because of the lack of a dedicated cutter head as MIke suggested which I like because it takes a full cut of the face too, but I know if I mill my stock S4S which I always have I shouldn't have a problem with the adjustable groover and stacked or single tenon cutters. I suppose in the back of my mind I was thinking of a new cutter head that I thought I needed and may have wanted. Now I'm thinking you fellows are right and I have some good quality Leitz, Felder and Garniga cutters I should just use them. All good points about the knickers / side cutters. I agree, I have two of the Felder/Leitz dado heads and they work well.

But I'm not going to let the euro block thought go without some research. As I mentioned I have a small 40mm knife head I just might look into a 50mm. Possibly if I found a set of Freeborn cutter heads used at a good deal I might buy them. I look at a set of Felder door cutters I spent $1500.00 that have not gotten much use out of because it's a euro ogee style that I had to have one time that is why I'm hesitant to purchase another Rangate $2000.00 head or a $800.00 Freeborn. Great products I know but my use lately doesn't justify it.

I've been woodworking for 40 yrs but only as a semi pro and the past 5 yrs as a casual woodworker only taking on what I want. I once did a lot of work but never have I had to make a living at it like you fellows do day in and day out and that is why I enjoy asking questions and finding your opinions because you do do it everyday.

I like the fact that guys like Joe, Brent and David who are pros feel passion and a sense of community to help the rest of us out and for the other contributors who want to help out a fellow woodworker with your experiences.

Fellows I'll let you know what I end up doing, I'll be milling wood this week as it's getting cold here

Thank you all for your contribution to the thread. I think it's another thread to bookmark if someone needs advice for shapers.

Ben

[brent stanley]

That's what I would do Ben, the square edge work is what that kit is made for. I have note pads with magnets on them that I just stick to the side of the shaper with notes regarding common jobs etc. Notes specific to jobs are in client files. One appeal of having matched knives is there is less settup. Run one stock, take knives out, put in other knives and if you don't touch the spindle height, your next profile should line up perfectly depending on your coping system.

I use my machines commercially and I have euroblock, limiter heads (40mm, 55m, 65mm, and 100mm) to cover most of the spectrum for profiling and some serrated blocks for heavier work, but still limiter-style. The nice thing about the 55mm size is you can get both cope and stick profiles on one set of knives which saves a lot. And don't let the process of getting knives intimidate you....send an email and they're in the mail to you the next day and in your mailbox in a couple more if they're in stock.....your mailbox doesn't care where they came from. I do it all the time. Buying dedicated carbide just to have them sit on the shelf after the one and only job you'll ever use them for seems silly to me. I have lots of carbide kit for things like rebate blocks, groovers and operations often done in MDF but even with that I will sometimes just have the knives for my Euroblock tipped in Carbide. Just depends on how the math works out.....also helps if you have a crystal ball....I can't find mine. :)

Cheers and feel free to ask any questions you might have,

Brent

[Ben Abate]

Hi Jared,
Where did you find the 50mm knives with 10mmx16mm? those I've not found.





If you already have a groover and a couple rebate / tenon heads, I would use them. Setup is just as long as a dedicated head. The alternative would be a 50mm tongue and groove knife set for your euro block. Cmt knives are about $23/ pair for the 50mm knives (10mmx16mm tongue iirc)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jared,
Where did you find the 50mm knives with 10mmx16mm? those I've not found.

Are these the knives Ben?

402216

They're from the Dimar catalogue.........Rod.

[Jared Sankovich]

Hi Jared,
Where did you find the 50mm knives with 10mmx16mm? those I've not found.

I have the knives rod posted, I thought i had a 50mm square t&g set as well, but I don't see any listed from CMT.

[Ben Abate]

Hi Rod,

No they are not, I was looking for a set of Craftsman style and Jared mentioned about the longer rebate of 16 mm that CMT sold. I see he was mistaken about them. And that's fine. 16mm would've been ok. a little deeper and a little more glue surface but we're good.




Are these the knives Ben?

402216

They're from the Dimar catalogue.........Rod.

[Joe Calhoon]

Ben
you should check with Hot Knives in St Louis. They make custom knives for these in all sizes out of a better grade of 4mm steel. They have a water jet and do a good job on corrugated and I am sure these also.