Shaper snipe troubleshoot

[Mike Tagge]

I’ve been working on some cabinet door parts and putting them through my power feed on the shaper along with the Aigner 4 wheel device. I have the outfeed fence parallel to the deepest cut on the cutter and indeed set to take off about .5mm. I consistently get a big snipe at the leading edge of the piece especially for the shorter pieces, say 250mm and less, and sometimes one on the trailing end. Long pieces seem to go through ok. How can I figure this out? I like to do the tennis first then cut the rails to avoid blowout on the cope. But I’m wondering if this might not be possible for shorter pieces.

Thanks,

Mike

[peter gagliardi]

Your outfeed fence is set proud of your cutter diameter.

[Patrick Walsh]

What Peter said,

Cope first then take all your rails, reference them all in a line against say a long jointer fence with up side up or down however you ran your cope. Cut a piece of 1/4” mdf just under the width of your parts and close to the same light of them all ganged together like a train. Use double sided tape to stick the mdf to the rail now run as one big stick.

But first do as Peter said.

You can also make a sacrificial fence that spans the infeed and out feed fence. Sometimes it’s also the powerfeeder applying pressure just the wrong way.

[Martin Wasner]

Stick first, cope second.

[Patrick Walsh]

How do you cope second and not get blow out on opposite apposition sides of your copes?

You must know something I don’t as I can’t get clean cuts any other way than to cope first then stick as the stick cleans up any blow out form the cope.


Stick first, cope second.

[Martin Wasner]

How do you cope second and not get blow out on opposite apposition sides of your copes?

You must know something I don’t as I can’t get clean cuts any other way than to cope first then stick as the stick cleans up any blow out form the cope.


You need a backer. Square shaker style you can use the same backer, since it's square. With a profile, you need to take the coping head and treat it like a sticking cutter and run a piece to be the backer for the profiled edge. Sometimes, depending on how well the knives are set and the run out of the spindle you'll want to run it twice with just a twinge of height difference to create some slop. You want the profiled backer to fit snug, but not so tight you can't get the rail free from it easily. You can't just throw the backer in there either, You gotta grip it in the fixture. Any gap will allow blow out. We also remove a 1/16" of length when coping to remove any fuzz from being cut on a saw blade. Rails are cut 1/8" long to account for that.


I did it that way for years. Still do it that way often for shorter pieces that are have a double sticking cut. Longer pieces that I don't have to worry about the power feed being able to hang onto it I'll cope first then stick just because it's easier.


If I have a shaper and a dust collector running, it should be cutting. That's the main reason I do full length sticking cuts. I can run parts nose to tail and have almost zero open machine time. I might've told you this in a pm, there was a dude on instagram showing a video of himself running long parts through a shaper. A professional mind you. No infeed, no outfeed. 30 second video. That machine sat empty for half of it while he was either loading or unloading. I told him he could double his productivity and halve his operating cost be running them nose to tail. Manufacturing has only two modes of operation with zero grey area. You are either producing or consuming. There's gradients of the two modes, but nothing in between. If I were to run 100 fronts worth of parts individually, there's no way I could keep that thing cutting. Plus it gets sketchy with small parts going through a feeder. You tend to run those with enough space between them that the feeder is relaxed and the previous part is clear before running the next. That's a lot of time consuming and not producing.


Or, the way I do it now is left and right copers. One counter clockwise, one clockwise. Both face down since the sticking cut is made face down. Then you just need a square backer for typical door parts that way. Due to folks never checking things.... we had some cumulative errors on a run of 74 fronts so all of them got canned. I ripped, jointed (which I rarely do, but I don't play around when dealing with a SNAFU), re-ripped, sticked, sized, cut to length and coped all those parts in about 5-1/2 hours. I was pushing pretty hard, but only had one blow out of any consequence doing almost 300 copes. Our doors are made .040" oversized to allow for edge sanding. A little speck of blowout isn't a big deal since it will be removed in the edge sanding.


I like the PMK coper. Two heads. You put your parts in flat to flat so one acts as the backer for the other. The table cycles a bit one way dipping into the part, then finishes the cut with the other head. Pneumatic clamps hold in two directions, the parts tight to the table, and tight to one another.


Most people cope way too slowly too. You need a constant feed rate, and to be fairly aggressive with it. Being too slow just gives time for things to wrong and end grain can be cut way faster than long grain if everything is right.


The fixture for coping has a lot to do with it as well. We use the Reliable clamp, it's okay, but there's room for improvement. I'd like to see it mounted on linear bearings, I just haven't bothered putting something together like that. But the backer has to be TIGHT to the workpiece. Anything else will result in failure.


Sorry, I think about doors and process a lot. Almost certainly the main reason I don't sleep.



https://youtu.be/25GbUnlOHh4

[Patrick Walsh]

Jesus,

You do think a lot, maybe more than me lol..

The idea of marking abacker with the profile is so simple but something I never thought of. It getting stuck could be a royal pita but I’ll give that a try on our next project.

Our next project the doors are going to be a royal pita anyway. They are a door in a door. Think a quartered white oak 5/8 mitered five piece door captured In a slot by a 1” shaker style door with a applied Scottie. We have been going back and forth trying to decide the most efficient way to produce these doors along with assure the mothers stay together.

So far I like a mitered bridal joint cut on the shaper. The boss like my idea to edge taping a bunch of mdf core for the mitered portion.using that for the miter. So we would build a 1” shaker door cut out for glass. Drop in a 1/4 mdf core panel. Apply the mitered detail they apply the scotia over it.

Either way assuring the work is good enough it does not blow apart over time, no glue squeeze out incurs and the sanding is up to snuff to not create problems with finishing should make the whole ordeal a real time consuming affair.

To boot I bet we need like 100-150 doors and df likes this.

[Kevin Jenness]

I used to cope first, but when I went to one shaper due to space constraints I started sticking long pieces first, which is more efficient, and coping second. As Martin says, the backer has to be a good fit but not so tight that you can't get the rail out easily. I get the best results with a fresh backer for each cut, so I make 6 or 8 backer pieces, use them once then cut the batch shorter and repeat. I clamp the backer and workpiece both vertically and horizontally- a loose backer getting sucked into the cutterhead is not something you want to experience.

As far as snipe goes, an outboard fence eliminates the problem, especially for short pieces. If the pieces are too short to span the feeder wheel spacing then Patrick's suggestion is a good one, but if you are sticking first it won't be an issue.

[Patrick Walsh]

Kevin that sound slow!

I can’t imagine switching out a backer board for every cut on a whole kitchen. I do that when makeing tenon for furniture pieces but that’s kinda slow work by comparison so it doesn’t feel like a huge time loss as your more concerned with finished product. For door parts though I want to be able to run a whole kitchen in minutes not hours.

But your solution is a solution for someone looking to just get it right if they are struggling.


I used to cope first, but when I went to one shaper due to space constraints I started sticking long pieces first, which is more efficient, and coping second. As Martin says, the backer has to be a good fit but not so tight that you can't get the rail out easily. I get the best results with a fresh backer for each cut, so I make 6 or 8 backer pieces, use them once then cut the batch shorter and repeat. I clamp the backer and workpiece both vertically and horizontally- a loose backer getting sucked into the cutterhead is not something you want to experience.

As far as snipe goes, an outboard fence eliminates the problem, especially for short pieces. If the pieces are too short to span the feeder wheel spacing then Patrick's suggestion is a good one, but if you are sticking first it won't be an issue.

[Kevin Jenness]

Patrick,

It is slower, but the cut is consistently clean. I want clean joints whether I am making one table or fifty doors, and I know I can get that using a fresh backer. For the same reason, when I crosscut panels on the slider I keep a stick at hand to back up each cut so I don't get chip-out on the trailing corners. If you get an acceptable result reusing the backer, good on you. With sharp tooling it usually does fine, and you can toss out the occasional faulty piece.

I don't feel like I am struggling, but I am "looking to just get it right." If I spend an extra hour on a batch of doors and don't see even minor blow-out in the corners when assembled I'm happy. I am working for myself so I get to decide how much time I spend to get the results I want. I am saving time over my old way by not sticking the rails individually. To each his own.

[Martin Wasner]

Kevin, that's where removing some length of the rail in the coping cut helps. Your backer never erodes from chips hitting it over and over again. It's constantly being freshened up.


I also back cut the backer so it almost comes to a point on the trailing edge of the cut when fresh. Eventually it ends up gone, that's when we swap for a fresh one. We always have an excess of 1-1/4" wide material, so that is the first thing I go to for making backers. I grab a bunch of sticks or scraps left over from frame material and cut them to 18" since it's a comfortable length. They start getting short, they just get pitched.


Ideally your backer is just a freckle thinner than the stock your machining to ensure it stays put.


Yes, sucking a backer into a shaper is annoying. Usually ends with a fence being out of place, and shattered carbide.

[Mel Fulks]

I get all the rail material 5 and 1/2 wide or more and cope using the "rub collar" . Then rip to width before running profile .
If a rub collar did not come with the set they can be bought separately . Rails that are too short to profile without snipe are lined up
and get a piece of plywood stapled to the backs to avoid any snipe.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some good points already. I'll just go through my method, (which I think is very similar to what Martin has mentioned), for the heck of it. Run all sticking parts first and run using an outboard fence. You'll never futz around wasting time setting your shaper fences again once you start using an outboard fence, and your stock is on the money every time. And as has been mentioned is more efficient for larger jobs as you can run extra and cope as needed.

For copes I use a second shaper with a sled. I also use a backer piece as mentioned but I make use of 2 toggle clamps on my sled. One holds the backer and one holds the rail. This way if I need fresh backer I just pop the toggle and move the piece forward slightly. I have it set so that when the stock on my sled is pushed up tight to the shaper fence the cutter will remove the profile + 1/32". This accomplishes a couple things, first I know I'm always getting a full cut. Second I know that all my parts are cut exactly 1/16" oversize before coping.... making for easy math. Plus this way whenever I want a fresh backer I can have it just by advancing it that 1/32" that gets removed at every pass.

I've tried other methods like running parts against the shaper fences, using rub collars, stacking cutters etc etc. and this is the method that i've found makes the most sense for me. I won't say its the best for everyone as scale, equipment and other factors certainly come into play. But it works well, is repeatable, and provides a really highly quality of joint.

good luck,
JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

This is exactly what we do except for the sticks with a outboard fence. I really want to get setup with the outboard fence and climbcutting. I tried the climb cut when making the df passage doors taking a tiny bite for the .75: panel groove and it was a mess. Basically all burn marks and my spindle came to a near stop. That was the end of that but I was also using a 4hp machine. I figured it was a tiny bite so?

Anyway the oversized of the rail by 1/16 then setting up outfeed fence to take a 32nd is how I have been taught. Now the extra toggle clamp for the backer board is something I’m gonna have to rig up. We use a old t110 with the bolt on slifding table that has the manual clamp. To f]date we screw our back on. It makes it a real pita to move on the fly. Hmm how am I gonna mount a toggle to the darn thing now.

I really really like the idea of being able to move your backer lickidy split when cuts start getting sloppy. We use this bevel profile quite a bit lately and it leaves the thinnest little whisper of wood at the edge of the cope and no matter what we do it’s always like the cutters are dull. This results in sitting there with a tiny square block wrapped with sticky back sand paper and cleaning every single one.


Some good points already. I'll just go through my method, (which I think is very similar to what Martin has mentioned), for the heck of it. Run all sticking parts first and run using an outboard fence. You'll never futz around wasting time setting your shaper fences again once you start using an outboard fence, and your stock is on the money every time. And as has been mentioned is more efficient for larger jobs as you can run extra and cope as needed.

For copes I use a second shaper with a sled. I also use a backer piece as mentioned but I make use of 2 toggle clamps on my sled. One holds the backer and one holds the rail. This way if I need fresh backer I just pop the toggle and move the piece forward slightly. I have it set so that when the stock on my sled is pushed up tight to the shaper fence the cutter will remove the profile + 1/32". This accomplishes a couple things, first I know I'm always getting a full cut. Second I know that all my parts are cut exactly 1/16" oversize before coping.... making for easy math. Plus this way whenever I want a fresh backer I can have it just by advancing it that 1/32" that gets removed at every pass.

I've tried other methods like running parts against the shaper fences, using rub collars, stacking cutters etc etc. and this is the method that i've found makes the most sense for me. I won't say its the best for everyone as scale, equipment and other factors certainly come into play. But it works well, is repeatable, and provides a really highly quality of joint.

good luck,
JeffD

[Martin Wasner]

I really want to get setup with the outboard fence and climbcutting.

With good heads and sharp knives, you should not have to climb cut. A power cut has a higher chance of tear out obviously, but it's not as fuzzy. Just cut around any tear out.

There's no decent way to collect that I've found either.

I used to climb cut a lot of stuff, but since getting better shapers and really good heads, I haven't even considered it.

[Patrick Walsh]

That’s good to know. You can read all kinds of stuff that can make your think this or that. I trust you know what your talking about so I’ll just leave it be. We have 7hp for the cope “overkill” and tow 9hp machines one used for stick the other mostly used for panels lol...

So power shouldn’t be our limiting factor. If I setup the outboard fence I take it I position the pressure feed slightly against the outboard fence?


With good heads and sharp knives, you should not have to climb cut. A power cut has a higher chance of tear out obviously, but it's not as fuzzy. Just cut around any tear out.

There's no decent way to collect that I've found either.

I used to climb cut a lot of stuff, but since getting better shapers and really good heads, I haven't even considered it.

[Joe Calhoon]

With good heads and sharp knives, you should not have to climb cut. A power cut has a higher chance of tear out obviously, but it's not as fuzzy. Just cut around any tear out.

There's no decent way to collect that I've found either.

I used to climb cut a lot of stuff, but since getting better shapers and really good heads, I haven't even considered it.


This is is what I have found also with better tooling and machines.

I think cope first vs last are both acceptable methods depending on your shop, tools and product. Myself I prefer cope first and outboard fence for the sticking. We do a wide range of things and usually small batches so shaving a little time is not a deal breaker for me. True tenoning is usually best done first.

I had to shorten a couple door mulls the other day that had already been profiled. I just coped a wide board on both ends and used the cutoffs for backers. It worked well. I think the horizontal clamp helps.
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[Martin Wasner]

If I setup the outboard fence I take it I position the pressure feed slightly against the outboard fence?

Yep. Whatever your preferred amount is. I've been told I run too much. On a four wheel feeder, difference at the front of the case and the back is about an inch.

I don't even lock the feeder down with an outboard fence as mine hits that regular fence and stops.

One less step when swapping heads.

[Martin Wasner]

I think cope first vs last are both acceptable methods depending on your shop, tools and product. Myself I prefer cope first and outboard fence for the sticking. We do a wide range of things and usually small batches so shaving a little time is not a deal breaker for me. True tenoning is usually best done first.


Bigger parts like pass doors and similar, I don't think there's really an advantage one way or another. I would probably lean towards coping first. And like you said, in smaller runs it probably doesn't matter on time either.

[Bill Orbine]

The other option is to do your copes 1st and run the shorter pieces on a sled that has a longer guide on the fences. The down side with using the sled means change the setup for longer stock using the power feeder. Two things to change going from sled to stock feeder 1) the cutter height and 2) the outfeed fence to the lower point of cutter. Less than a couple minutes down time which is minimal and fairly quick routine. For a sled, I have a 24" pnuematic Weaver jig meaning short pieces 24" or less. No climb cuts and no tearouts cope or stick. The Weaver jig is also used for coping the rails. No outboard fence is used.

[Martin Wasner]

Thinking out loud

-Toggle clamps mounted in a T track so the rail length could be variable.
-Outboard fence.
-Sled narrow as possible, but wide enough so the toggle clamps clear the feeder.

Once you know zero of the sled, it'd be easy to dial in the width with a digital read out on the outboard fence. Just adjust the fence and the feeder. The feeder would be pulling the sled through. Spindle height is a non issue as well with a digital read out or a counter. If I made the sled on the router, I'd know exactly what the thickness is.

I never thought of it that way, thank you Bill

[Jeff Duncan]

Hey Patrick, if/when you swing by my shop I'll show you my cope setup. It's as simple and rudimentary as you can get, but it works! One advantage I like with my setup vs some of the others is I can cope sticks as short as 2-1/2" long for drawer fronts or whatnot. I use the same method for cabinet and passage doors, just use a larger sled. Oh and I use the 8hp T-160 for coping;)

I very, very, rarely climb cut. I know guys out there either swear by it or against it, but I feel its something good to have in your back pocket. Honestly its something rarely needed in my shop. As mentioned a good set of cutters on a good shaper should cut just fine. A couple tips, for clean sticking.... take off the full profile plus 1/32" - 1/16" of an inch. If you try to just get the profile, (ie rub collar style), the cut quality won't be great. If you have really gnarly wood take off 75 - 85% of the cut in the first pass. Then run the sticks again taking off the rest of the profile and the additional 1/32"+ and usually you'll get good results. If you absolutely can't get a clean cut b/c the woods super difficult again take the full pass, then make a clean up pass using a climb cut just removing a minimum amount of material, say 1/16" depth.

There are some nice setups out there for outfield fences but again mine is rudimentary consisting of a straight edge and clamps. Feeder needs maybe 1/4" - 3/8" of toe in form front to back to provide adequate pressure. Having a bit more probably won't hurt anything, but probably doesn't add anything either.

good luck,
JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

Jeff,

We do take the 32nd off our cope. And clearly we use a backer board it’s just not a easy swap out as a toggle clamp that allows one to just slide the backer board to the infeed fence whenever you need to clean it up. That seems to me to be our missing link in our setup as we often skip it unles it’s really bad. I mean we do it prior to every new run of a profile and that’s usually good enough to get us through a job but fro time to time someoething gives you a hard time and adjusting that backer board on the fly would be sweet!

We also make our doors to the exact size of the opening accounting for the math that relates to the desired finished flat exposure also taking into account sizing the door down 3/32 for revails.

I would love to stop by the shop but I’m keeping myself crazy busy every free minute working on the T-75 restoration and I’m gonna want your toys and now is a bad time for me to spend ;)

dim
Hey Patrick, if/when you swing by my shop I'll show you my cope setup. It's as simple and rudimentary as you can get, but it works! One advantage I like with my setup vs some of the others is I can cope sticks as short as 2-1/2" long for drawer fronts or whatnot. I use the same method for cabinet and passage doors, just use a larger sled. Oh and I use the 8hp T-160 for coping;)

I very, very, rarely climb cut. I know guys out there either swear by it or against it, but I feel its something good to have in your back pocket. Honestly its something rarely needed in my shop. As mentioned a good set of cutters on a good shaper should cut just fine. A couple tips, for clean sticking.... take off the full profile plus 1/32" - 1/16" of an inch. If you try to just get the profile, (ie rub collar style), the cut quality won't be great. If you have really gnarly wood take off 75 - 85% of the cut in the first pass. Then run the sticks again taking off the rest of the profile and the additional 1/32"+ and usually you'll get good results. If you absolutely can't get a clean cut b/c the woods super difficult again take the full pass, then make a clean up pass using a climb cut just removing a minimum amount of material, say 1/16" depth.

There are some nice setups out there for outfield fences but again mine is rudimentary consisting of a straight edge and clamps. Feeder needs maybe 1/4" - 3/8" of toe in form front to back to provide adequate pressure. Having a bit more probably won't hurt anything, but probably doesn't add anything either.

good luck,
JeffD

[Joe Calhoon]

Bigger parts like pass doors and similar, I don't think there's really an advantage one way or another. I would probably lean towards coping first. And like you said, in smaller runs it probably doesn't matter on time either.

Martin, yes house doors this is the best way in my shop. We do cabinet doors the same way. Not many cabinets anymore but used to do a lot. short cabinet door parts we use the outboard fence and packing tape the parts together in a train. For short house door and window parts we do the same only sometimes using the joinery to connect the train.
I think in your operation a double head coper would be the ticket if you do not already have one. I know my friend locally that has a cabinet door shop runs lineal on the moulder then uses either multi shapers with left and right heads for this and maybe a double coper. They do a lot of different profiles and have multiple setups and dedicated machines. They have a lot of real estate for dedicated machines. I think profile first is for sure a better production solution.

As a side note the cabinet door shop recently put in a CNC router for sizing doors and putting on the edge profiles. They are real happy with this and say real accurate for inset doors.

[Darcy Warner]

I have enough space now, I am tempted to drag home an old dinosaur greenlee 545 DET, just because I can.

[Martin Wasner]

As a side note the cabinet door shop recently put in a CNC router for sizing doors and putting on the edge profiles. They are real happy with this and say real accurate for inset doors.

We scribe our doors to the opening on inset. It's basically impossible to reliably make a perfect opening, or at least more time consuming than fitting the fronts on the edge sander.

For full overlay where you get cumulative errors, we might try that on the next one. It'd be super easy to setup. I think I'd do it with left and right tooling. Zero chance of blowing out end grain that way.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah if we just used math to size our inset doors to the faceframe it would be a mess. I guess it goes to show we really are not that good lol. In all seriousness for cabinetry not furniture chasing perfectly square is a waste of time and not nessisary.

For the most part when doing full overlay I can usually just use math to size my doors. I still lay them out on the carcasses using stacked veneer as spacers as to not take to much when edge sanding but most of the time no need to fuss with anything.

This is rarely the case with inset. I suppose if you were a shop that just made doors like Waltzcraft the machines joe is speaking of would make sense.

The square thing does drive any craftsman nuts but it is what it is. It’s not furniture. When building furniture from rough stock making sure everything is perfectly flat and a uniform thickness couple with mortise and tenon all layed out with a marking gauge things come out square pretty much 100% of the time at least in my experience. With kitchen cabs, built ins, vanities that kind of precision goes right out the window as working with pre dimensioned stock pocket screws so forth and so on just won’t allow for it consistently.

I hate it!

[Joe Calhoon]

I wondered about the inset also. Haven’t done any for quite a while but we always fit every opening with the edge sander with the table angled to give a slight bevel. I will pick his brain about it next time I see him. They are production oriented in a very competitive market. Different world from a craftsman builder. Early on they had a SCM double end with stacked tooling and a SCM Center single end. The Center was a interesting concept of a machine. I was interested in one for house doors but they take a lot of space. The double end I think they used for a contract they had for locker doors that were large order repeats of the same door.

[Larry Edgerton]

For my backer I run it through and then put a piece of cellophane tape on the back and run it through again without changeling height. Gives me just the right amount of slop. I stick with an outboard in long lengths and then cope.

Interesting conversation.........

[J.R. Rutter]

FWIW, we cope first in sets of 3 or 4 rails at a time depending on width, then continuous feed end to end on the sticking. Coping square parts makes it easy to cut multiples in one pass. The cope removes a bit of the backer every pass, and because we have a pneumatic cope clamp, the backer moves up every pass to keep good blowout support. Like Joe, packing tape rails shorter than 6" in groups to run through the sticking cut. For drawer face stiles, we run long strips and crosscut after sticking. Our crosscut saw tends to tear out just enough that I don't trust it for cutting all stiles like this. Besides, by crosscutting first, every cut can have the long strip flipped and/or rotated to keep crown consistent and have best show face.

Back to OP's question about snipe: Make sure that your feeder is angled towards the outfeed of the outboard fence. You can experiment with how much of an angle, and also wheel height above table (how much downward pressure), but there should be a range where you can consistently get zero snipe. The position of the feed wheels along the fence (length of feeder's horizontal arm) can also make a difference in results.

[Joe Calhoon]

JR, I have always admired your setup for cabinet doors. It’s smart.

Yes, interesting discussion and we might have overwhelmed the OP with information. It is possible to get good results using the split fence removing the whole edge. Shaper is like a jointer with the fence and table reversed.
1-Outfeed fence set to the zero of the cutter.
2- Fences perfectly coplaner. Check with a straight edge and feeler gauge.
3- Fences perfectly square to the table.
4- workpieces not straight or prepared well.

if you are getting snipe at both ends and the outfeed is set to the zero diameter it a indication of a fault with 2, 3 and 4 Or the feed may not be set right.
With all these things needing to be set properly you can see the advantages of using a outboard fence.
A zero fence will help with shorter pieces. It does not have to be perfect zero you just want to close the opening as much as possible.
Pictures of one I use for outside cuts on doors and sash. It is a little hacked up as it has been modified for different cutters and wood pieces added to raise it up. This is used with a large diameter cutter to close the opening. Otherwise short pieces will tend to tip in. We get the offset by running the fence through the planer and dropping the bed halfway through. 1mm in our case but could be 1/16” or whatever you use. This one is plastic because we use it on a NC shaper and do not want to deal with wood movement. Wood is fine for this in most cases though.

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[Martin Wasner]

I some respects, using the split fence is better since you can oversize your material greatly, then use the split fence as you say like a jointer. I've thought about setting a separate shaper up just for sticking cuts and doing this. Oversize them more like you would with a moulder with a good sized straightening table. You'd want to have some sort of block though to force a dimension if the crook was greater than the amount you could remove and maintain width. I should just get my moulder going....

JR and I have talked about tracking batches of doors to see what is a better use of time. I haven't delivered any valuable data. I'm certain he's coping faster, but I wonder if the time is made up on my end in the handling when doing the sticking cut though. I also wonder if one of those double headed copers would be faster than doing 4 at a time as you might loose it on the load/unload, whereas the automatic machine your hands are free to stage the next set, and put away the previous set. That's what I discovered about the automatic dovetailer. It doesn't machine any faster, but my hands are free while it's cutting to keep my house in order.

I do think the best way is to run sticking through a moulder hitting all four faces at once, then a double headed coper. That's what I'm working towards. Oversize a 1/4" on the rip saw, then let the moulder straighten and flatten everything out. Still not as good as busting up material, face jointing, planing, edge jointing, sizing, then profiling for straightness, but I don't think I can charge enough for that small gain in waste.


JR can you play with the cycle speed on your jump saw? We tried a couple of different blades and slowed ours way down and that helped a bunch. On stiles tear out goes to the outside of the door( Face up or down doesn't seem to matter), when cutting rails I like to cut face down and tear out towards the profile so the back edge is clean against the backer while coping.


I looked into a defecting saw. Buckle up expensive. I was surprised at the $135k price.

[Patrick Kane]

Interesting discussion. Ive never made cabinets, but sooner or later thats going to catch up to me. We finished our complete gut of a starter home prior to me getting involved in true woodworking. Otherwise, im sure i would have made the bathroom vanities etc. One aspect of woodworking i enjoy is increasing efficiency of the build process. Its how i justify overkill tool purchases. Does anyone have a link to a video or step by step showing a typical kitchen build from the ground up? There are videos out there showing this old house or whatever making cabinets with a router table and a unisaw, but im more so interested in the exact steps people use that have a slider, proper shaper, ripsaw etc. Things like an outboard fence and using the shaper to dimension and profile are tricks of the trade im looking for. Basically, things i would learn by working in a respectable pro shop for a month. Are there resources for that sort of education, or more so its just taught by apprenticing/doing? Ill never be in the position you all are in as far as building a door in 3 minutes, but it sounds like there is the right way of building cabinets and the stumbling and bumbling way.

[Darcy Warner]

I some respects, using the split fence is better since you can oversize your material greatly, then use the split fence as you say like a jointer. I've thought about setting a separate shaper up just for sticking cuts and doing this. Oversize them more like you would with a moulder with a good sized straightening table. You'd want to have some sort of block though to force a dimension if the crook was greater than the amount you could remove and maintain width. I should just get my moulder going....

JR and I have talked about tracking batches of doors to see what is a better use of time. I haven't delivered any valuable data. I'm certain he's coping faster, but I wonder if the time is made up on my end in the handling when doing the sticking cut though. I also wonder if one of those double headed copers would be faster than doing 4 at a time as you might loose it on the load/unload, whereas the automatic machine your hands are free to stage the next set, and put away the previous set. That's what I discovered about the automatic dovetailer. It doesn't machine any faster, but my hands are free while it's cutting to keep my house in order.

I do think the best way is to run sticking through a moulder hitting all four faces at once, then a double headed coper. That's what I'm working towards. Oversize a 1/4" on the rip saw, then let the moulder straighten and flatten everything out. Still not as good as busting up material, face jointing, planing, edge jointing, sizing, then profiling for straightness, but I don't think I can charge enough for that small gain in waste.


JR can you play with the cycle speed on your jump saw? We tried a couple of different blades and slowed ours way down and that helped a bunch. On stiles tear out goes to the outside of the door( Face up or down doesn't seem to matter), when cutting rails I like to cut face down and tear out towards the profile so the back edge is clean against the backer while coping.


I looked into a defecting saw. Buckle up expensive. I was surprised at the $135k price.


You can find a good Dimter for under 10k. Great support from weinig. I have set up a couple for local shops. Great machines when you can take advantage of their capabilities.

[Martin Wasner]

You can find a good Dimter for under 10k. Great support from weinig. I have set up a couple for local shops. Great machines when you can take advantage of their capabilities.

I just looked up the price of a new OMGA. I haven't really paid any attention to anything like that used. I need more space to add a defecting saw. I just don't have anywhere to put it right now.