Crosscut Hand Saw Rehab

[Tate Harmann]

I picked up this 26" hand saw with Warranted Superior Medallion for $5. It had a LOT wrong with it and I think I overpaid for $5. But what was done was done so I went to work. Here's the saw as I got it:
401894401895

As you can see it was very rusted, the finish on the handle was pretty much gone, there was one crack that went all the way through the handle and many other smaller surface cracks, there was also a saw screw missing from the handle (the saw nut was still there on the opposing side though, and the saw plate had a bit of a bend near the tip.

Here it is disassembled:
401896

And here I'm removing rust with Windex and sandpaper:
401897401898

After that, I went to work on the handle. I saw that scraping with a razor blade might be possible - I couldn't get it work well, though, so just sanded it clean:
401899401900401901

Love the wood in that handle - I think it's beech, right?

[Tate Harmann]

Then I went to work sharpening. I haven't done many crosscut saws and I thought I was keeping the rake geometry the same as the previous shape but as you can see I was generally making it more aggressive.

401902401903

Here's the handle with the BLO and paste wax on. I glued the big crack after finishing which was totally backwards...good lesson for next time. Any rate, I was able to clean the glue up just fine with steel wool afterwards.

401904401905

Here everything is put back together. The missing saw screw I got from a set of ten screws and nuts made by Great Neck available on Amazon.

401906401907401908401909

[Tate Harmann]

Here are some last shots. I love the look of freshly sharpened hand saws from a particular angle. These two are the crosscut from this post and a 5 1/2 TPI rip saw that I rehabbed too:

401910401911

The bend was addressed using the Paul Sellers very complicated method of "bending the other way" lol - worked like a charm (although I know from experience that it doesn't always). The saw plate I finished with 3 in 1 oil and some paraffin wax.

Even though the tooth geometry turned out a bit more aggressive than I'd have liked, this saws like a dream. Easily one of the best crosscut saws I've used. Starting the cut may be a little more difficult but it usually is anyways on a freshly sharpened saw. I'm also pleased with how the handle turned out. Very comfortable. Thanks for watching :)

[Mike Hutchison]

Nice Work
Got a couple questions; I never heard of Windex for rust removal.
How does that work out?
Also, that is a really marked change in color on the non-medallion side of handle.
Is that "uni-body"? Repair? chemical change caused by removal old finish?
Thanks, Mike H.

[Tate Harmann]

Hi Mike - thanks for the comments.

The Windex doesn't remove the rust - it's all about providing some lubrication for the sandpaper :) Some guys use WD-40, too. Since it's wet/dry sandpaper I assume you could use water as well...but I'd be concerned with rusting.

The color difference in the handle is all in the wood. It's so beautiful to look at close up. It must have just been in the piece (unless someone messed with it previously?) of lumber.

[Pete Taran]

Tate,

I've been restoring saws for almost 30 years, but never considered windex. I'm going to give it a try! I use mineral spirits which is somewhat stinky, even when using the odorless variety.

[Tate Harmann]

Hey Pete - yes I recommend it. I'm not sure if it ends up being cheaper than mineral spirits or not...and it does stink as well haha - so it's probably about the same either way!

[brian zawatsky]

Windex, huh? Interesting. I always reach for the WD, next time I will try some windex just for giggles.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Vinegar (also smells) but does a nice job cutting through the rust and it is cheap. Some advocate diluting it. I use it full strength on really rusty stuff. Sometimes you need to soak, scrape and repeat. Instead of sand paper, you can use scotch brite pads or scotch brite dobies that have a nice nylon abrasive surface that is softer than metal. They won't scratch the metal like sandpaper. You need to wash the blade thoroughly if you use vinegar - it is an acid. You can also use plastic scrapers like an old credit card.

[Pete Taran]

But that is a chemical reaction and the result is an unnatural looking saw blade. We're just talking about some lubricant to keep silicon carbide paper from clogging up.

[Tate Harmann]

Here's another victory for Windex that occurred just tonight haha. Another WS saw - this one a beat up and abused 12" backsaw:

Before

401945401946

During:

401947

After:

401948401949

I haven't really addressed the handle on this one yet. The teeth have a horrendous case of "cows and calves" (is that right?) - so I'll have to re-cut the teeth and do some other fiddling yet too.

[brian zawatsky]

Tate, if you joint the tooth line down just far enough to touch the tops of the shorter teeth you should be able to shape them to joint without re-cutting all new teeth. I’ve had to do this on quite a few old saws, sometimes it takes 2 jointings but for a good quality old saw it’s worth the work.

[Tate Harmann]

Awesome - thanks for the tip - I can certainly try!

[Tate Harmann]

Tate, if you joint the tooth line down just far enough to touch the tops of the shorter teeth you should be able to shape them to joint without re-cutting all new teeth. I’ve had to do this on quite a few old saws, sometimes it takes 2 jointings but for a good quality old saw it’s worth the work.

Actually now that I'm thinking of it, there aren't really any shorter teeth on this one. It looks like the weird M pattern on some big crosscut saws:
401951

Am I dealing with something else here?

[brian zawatsky]

Actually now that I'm thinking of it, there aren't really any shorter teeth on this one. It looks like the weird M pattern on some big crosscut saws:
401951

Am I dealing with something else here?

that is almost certainly someone’s failed attempt at filing sloped gullets. I would joint that saw aggressively and even out the gullet line, as well as the tooth height. I like some slope on my crosscut-filed saws, but that is way excessive. As a result the tooth geometry is all screwed up, as you can see.

I would joint it hard and re-shape the teeth with the goal of evening out the rake angle, tooth height, and gullet depth. I’d bet that saw will need 2 good jointings to get it all back to serviceable shape.

Another tip: as you are doing your shaping passes, you want to even out the tooth spacing as you file to joint. This will require varying where you put the pressure on the saw file. Some teeth you will have to press straight down into the gullet, some you will have to press into the back of one tooth, some you will want more pressure on the face of the tooth. All depends on which direction you want the tooth to move to even out the spacing & tooth height.

[Tate Harmann]

Yea this saw was pretty messed up when I got it. The tooth line also has a hollow along its length so the teeth in the middle are lower than the teeth at the toe and heel. The saw plate was not straight either. I managed to get it close to perfect by tapping the back here and there, doing George's crescent wrench trick, and various other little tweaks. When I place a straight edge on either side of the teeth along the tooth line I can only see tiny bits of light peeking through.

I figure I'll re-cut the teeth, set, and sharpen to see how she cuts. If it tracks fine I will probably leave it.

Thanks for the tips! This will be my first attempt at this :)

[brian zawatsky]

Here are some pics of a small No 7 panel saw I fettled for a friend some years ago. It's the only one I have pics of because he asked to see pics of the process, otherwise i probably wouldn't have taken any. Like yours the saw had a pronounced belly in the center of the toothline, and it was so deep I had to completely remove all the teeth to get it straight and file in new teeth from scratch. I used a cheap saw from a miter box that had the same tooth pitch (11ppi) to get marks for the tooth spacing.

1/4" belly in center
401954

jointed straight
401955

using 11ppi miter saw to mark gullet centers for new teeth
401956


Filing in new teeth
401957

Fleam angle filed in
401958

Thois last step was followed by another light jointing to ensure that all the teeth were the same height. It's not terribly hard but takes some practice. That backsaw looks like a perfect saw to practice on, good luck and post pics!

[Tate Harmann]

Brilliant tip, that! I've got an 11 TPI miter saw that I could use to mark the teeth too. I was thinking of doing a higher tooth count, though. This will be a 12" Tenon saw so should be rip. Maybe I should do like 13/14 TPI?

[brian zawatsky]

11 or 12 ppi is pretty standard for a tenon saw. Personally I'd keep with 11ppi, it strikes a nice balance between surface finish and cutting speed. When you get up around 14-16ppi you're in dovetail saw territory, and they are generally used in stock 3/4" thick or less. Higher tooth counts on a tenon saw can cause the gullets to load up because there are too many teeth engaged in the cut & the saw can choke.
YMMV, of course.

[Tate Harmann]

Cool - thanks Brian - and good point...the tenons usually get cleaned up anyways so they don't need to have a super clean surface.

Thanks for all of the tips! I'll post some pics when she's done :)

[Tate Harmann]

11 or 12 ppi is pretty standard for a tenon saw. Personally I'd keep with 11ppi, it strikes a nice balance between surface finish and cutting speed. When you get up around 14-16ppi you're in dovetail saw territory, and they are generally used in stock 3/4" thick or less. Higher tooth counts on a tenon saw can cause the gullets to load up because there are too many teeth engaged in the cut & the saw can choke.
YMMV, of course.

Hi Brian - I definitely ran into some issues doing this and haven't quite finished yet (mostly because the saw file I was using to do this finally reached it's end). I'm wondering where I went wrong. I filed all of the old teeth off and marked the new gullets with the miter saw I have. That worked great by the way!
402495402496

Then I started shaping the teeth:
402497402498

The first couple of passes went fine as I kept the file with the same rake angle down the length of the saw.

But then, on the third pass I started to bring the rake angle more vertical after the first two inches of the saw and teeth started to break off and not be the same height as the starter teeth. I'm assuming part of this was my file finally biting the dust - but also, should I wait longer to play with the rake geometry? Maybe I should file the entire thing with the same rake angle until the tooth is well defined and then do a quick pass with some steeper angle?

Anyways, I have a brand new (and supposedly a better brand) file now and the saw plate back down flat with the gullets marked again. Any tips will be appreciated - thanks so much for the help!

Tate

[Phil Mueller]

Tate, don’t know why changing the rake angle slightly would cause teeth to break off. Are there rusty pits along the tooth line in those areas?

Anyway, if in the future, you need a different ppi pattern, go to Blackburn Tools.com. Issac has a “articles and reference” section that includes tooth spacing patterns than can be printed out and taped over your saw. You do need to make sure that your printed copy is accuratly sized according to the scale on the pattern and may need to increase or decrease the print size percentage. Here’s an example of one of Issac’s patterns being used for retoothing a saw:

402499

He includes every ppi pattern you would ever want to do.

[Tate Harmann]

Tate, don’t know why changing the rake angle slightly would cause teeth to break off. Are there rusty pits along the tooth line in those areas?

Anyway, if in the future, you need a different ppi pattern, go to Blackburn Tools.com. Issac has a “articles and reference” section that includes tooth spacing patterns than can be printed out and taped over your saw. You do need to make sure that your printed copy is accuratly sized according to the scale on the pattern and may need to increase or decrease the print size percentage. Here’s an example of one of Issac’s patterns being used for retoothing a saw:

402499

He includes every ppi pattern you would ever want to do.

Hi Phil - thanks for the tip here. I actually did try a paper pattern first but found it difficult to keep the file right on the line. And, yes, there is one small area of pitting on the tooth line but it's not even near where the teeth broke off...strange, right??

[brian zawatsky]

I’m not sure what would cause the teeth to break off on you, could be a too-brittle saw plate, could be you were pushing too hard on the file. If you end up with teeth breaking off of your file, which happens with some brands (especially if you’re a bit heavy handed) the broken file teeth can snag on the saw plate, possibly causing the saw teeth to break. Best guess.

You want to file in a consistent rake angle as you shape the teeth. If you want the first few inches of the saw to have a relaxed rake, then shape them that way right from the get go. Changing the rake angle after all the teeth have been shaped is bad practice, because it will lead to teeth of different sizes with uneven spacing.

Don’t push the file too hard, you want nice smooth even strokes. Let the file do the work. The saw plate needs to be clamped tightly along 100% of its length, if it vibrates when you file into it you will get poor results. This actually could be a cause of your broken teeth also. Do you have your saw clamped between 2 block of wood? If so, you may want to add a 45 degree chamfer on the edge of the front block to allow you more comfortable access to the toothline.

Finally what size size file are you using? It’s tough to tell from the pics but it looks as if it may be a bit too big.

[Tate Harmann]

I’m not sure what would cause the teeth to break off on you, could be a too-brittle saw plate, could be you were pushing too hard on the file. If you end up with teeth breaking off of your file, which happens with some brands (especially if you’re a bit heavy handed) the broken file teeth can snag on the saw plate, possibly causing the saw teeth to break. Best guess.

You want to file in a consistent rake angle as you shape the teeth. If you want the first few inches of the saw to have a relaxed rake, then shape them that way right from the get go. Changing the rake angle after all the teeth have been shaped is bad practice, because it will lead to teeth of different sizes with uneven spacing.

Don’t push the file too hard, you want nice smooth even strokes. Let the file do the work. The saw plate needs to be clamped tightly along 100% of its length, if it vibrates when you file into it you will get poor results. This actually could be a cause of your broken teeth also. Do you have your saw clamped between 2 block of wood? If so, you may want to add a 45 degree chamfer on the edge of the front block to allow you more comfortable access to the toothline.

Finally what size size file are you using? It’s tough to tell from the pics but it looks as if it may be a bit too big.

Excellent tips, thanks Brian! I think the issue was pushing the file too hard as it was really getting dull. That one was was a 5" 2x slim from Nicholson. I threw it out.

My replacement is a Simonds in the same size. I've heard bad things about the Nicholson files but it actually worked great to sharpen other saws it just reached it's end of life.

My saw "vise" is just a 2 x 4 cut down the middle. Good idea on the chamber! I will build that in :)

Anyways, I'm going to have another go at this tomorrow when the wife isn't home because, frankly, its loud haha.

[brian zawatsky]

The noise is an indication that your clamping mechanism needs some work. The file should not screech and squawk across the saw plate, it should be the smooth, easy pleasurable sound of a file smoothing metal. You won’t be able to produce acceptable results with a vise setup that allows the saw to vibrate. I’d spend some time trueing up your vise jaws, make sure they are jointed dead flat on both mating surfaces. Another thing you could do is to put a small shim between the two blocks at the bottom when you clamp them in. This will cause all the clamping force to be applied at the top edge where the saw plate needs to be gripped solidly. Even a 1/8” strip would do the trick if the clamp faces are jointed flat.

[Pete Taran]

Tate,

Perhaps you didn't post the right picture in your thread, but I don't see any broken teeth on your saw. Honestly, while some claim the ultimate satisfaction in this exercise, and I've done it myself, once you do it once, do yourself a favor and just send it out to be mechanically retoothed. The teeth are fuflly formed, regular, even and ready to file. I've never observed teeth breaking off while filing, unless they were overset just before with the tooth already cracked. Perhaps that is the case here, but it doesn't sound like it.

[Tate Harmann]

Thanks Brian! I've sharpened other saws that were very pleasurable to do, like the original one in this thread. It was quiet and meditative - very nice.

With this one it must have been the file or maybe the fact that I'm not just sharpening but recutting teeth?

Any rate, I will look at my setup and address any issues you mention and have a go at it. Thanks!

[Tate Harmann]

Hey Pete - I think maybe I didn't take a pic of the section that had the broken teeth because I cant find any pics either!

I hear you on getting it mechanically retoothed :) I wanted to do this once by hand to see if I could and to understand saws better ;)

[Stewie Simpson]

I hear you on getting it mechanically retoothed :) I wanted to do this once by hand to see if I could and to understand saws better ;)


Tate; you represent the reason why I no longer offer advise on how to manually shape and sharpen a new set of saw teeth. Regardless of what your going to hear from others, it does indeed take a great deal of practice to become proficient at manually shaping a new set of saw teeth, and if your starting objective is to try it once and move on, then imo it would make better sense to stop what your currently doing, take up Pete's advise, and send your saw out to be re-toothed by machine.

regards Stewie;

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Phil - thanks for the tip here. I actually did try a paper pattern first but found it difficult to keep the file right on the line. And, yes, there is one small area of pitting on the tooth line but it's not even near where the teeth broke off...strange, right??

Tate, I imagine that many starting down the sharpening-from-scratch road believe that the teeth need to conform exactly to the lines on the paper, and if they do not then all the teeth will end up misaligned.

Just get the teeth as close as you can (to the line on the paper), and do not worry about the spacing at this stage. It is early days. As you continue to file, you can (and will) move the position of the tooth by taking a little more off the front or the back of a tooth. There is quite a bit of filing to do when you begin with a toothless or near-toothless plate, so there is quite a bit of time to move the teeth into the desired spacing. We are talking under a mm here much of the time, so the tooth count, per se, does not itself change.

This method takes more time, which means more patience for the amateur (like myself). But you will get there. No fancy equipment needed, unless you are making many saw plates regularly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

I have no idea how many hundreds of times I've sharpened a handsaw, but know exactly the number of times I've even thought about completely retoothing one-0.

[Derek Cohen]

Mostly agree Tom. The exceptions are when significantly changing the rake of teeth, or when rehabbing old saws. Once set up, I tend to keep this going.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

To make a change to the front rake angle of the saw teeth is not a legitimate reason on why you would bother to re-tooth a handsaw. To suggest otherwise is totally misleading.

Stewie;

[Phil Mueller]

Stewie, I have a miter saw with way too much rake...like 20 degrees... and would like to decrease it without re-toothing (which is what I thought I would need to do). To decrease rake, would I just need to heavily joint first (maybe 1/3-1/2 the tooth height), and then refile with the new rake angle?

[Derek Cohen]

To make a change to the front rake angle of the saw teeth is not a legitimate reason on why you would bother to re-tooth a handsaw. To suggest otherwise is totally misleading.

Stewie;

Stewie, and others, how would you deal with a plate which has 14 degree rake (rip), and you wish to change it to 5 degrees of rake? Would you just file the front of the teeth, or would you file them down (not altogether but at least half way) and retooth?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[brian zawatsky]

To make a change to the front rake angle of the saw teeth is not a legitimate reason on why you would bother to re-tooth a handsaw. To suggest otherwise is totally misleading.

Stewie;

Care to explain this? 1 or 2 degrees, ok. But any more than that and a very aggressive jointing is needed (like down to nubs) or you will change the saw’s pitch.

[Pete Taran]

All,

Here is the explanation. I think there is a lot of confusion about rake and saw filing angles and how they work. The most important thing to understand is that the file is 60 degrees as it's an equilateral triangle, so the only thing any filer need be concerned with is how the face of the file that defines the rake angle is held.

Check out the diagram I sketched up which is attached. There is one toothline superimposed over another. One has my preferred rip rake of 4 degrees, the other the traditional crosscut rake of 15 degrees. If you study it closely, you will see a few things. First, the heights of the teeth are different and are dependent on the rake angle. The highest tooth possible is a 30 degree peg tooth. The shortest tooth possible is the 90 degree or zero degree rake tooth.

It is not necessary to remove half of the teeth to change rakes. I do this conversion all the time and as Stewart suggests, would be a waste of saw steel and blade height to recut teeth for a rake angle change.

In the diagram shown, you need only be mindful of what metal you need to remove to get the effect you are after. I point that out in the diagram. If you stop when you hit the tip of the tooth, you will notice there is a small area that is not fully formed because of the previous tooth angle. You can continue to file deeper to completely remove all traces of the old tooth, or not worry about it since it's on the back side of the tooth and doesn't impact the cut in any way. I typically leave it, especially considering that more space for saw dust is better than less. Additionally, the most important real estate on a saw is how much width is left in the blade. Over jointing and filing just uses your saw up faster.

Hope this helps.

402642

[brian zawatsky]

Thanks Pete, that makes a lot of sense. Don’t know why I never looked at it that way. Every time I made a major rake angle adjustment I jointed the saw way back (~1/2 tooth height) thinking it was necessary to keep the same tooth pitch. Also the aesthetics of the hump in the back of the saw tooth bother the heck out of me, probably as a function of my OCD haha!

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you Pete. The diagram helps a lot to understand this. Your tag says it all: Filingmysteriesrevealed.

[Tate Harmann]

Well, I went to work on this saw just now and I think it turned out OK. Not perfect - but it cuts wood and that's what counts, right? Thanks to everyone for their help on this. Would I want to do this every day? No. Would I do it again to restore a saw? Of course I would!

The new file cut like butter and I used some different wood pieces to serve as the jaws this time (these are some walnut pieces I normally use as winding sticks):

402666402663402664402665

Here's how she looked after a few passes:
402667
The right side of this pic are the 2 inches of "starter" teeth gradually forming the aggressive teeth on the rest of the saw:
402668

And all finished with some test cuts:
402669402670

[Tate Harmann]

A test rip and cross cut in red oak:
402671402672

When I saw setting the saw I noticed some small flat spots still on the teeth so I may make another pass on it. I may also relax the rake angle on these teeth as I think that zero degrees is way to aggressive haha.

Again, not perfect, but cuts great!

[Tom M King]

If it's just a couple of little flat spots, they can wait until the next time the saw needs sharpening, and it will make a difference that approaches zero.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for the explanation, Pete.

I suggested as extreme an example as I could think of. Going the other way - relaxing the rake - is pretty straightforward. The usual cases where I have retoothed have been rehabs of vintage backsaws. Generally the teeth are a mess - wildly irregular or too large and too few.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tate Harmann]

Thanks for the explanation, Pete.

I suggested as extreme an example as I could think of. Going the other way - relaxing the rake - is pretty straightforward. The usual cases where I have retoothed have been rehabs of vintage backsaws. Generally the teeth are a mess - wildly irregular or too large and too few.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,
The reason I retoothed this one was on account of this was how it looked:

402769

[Tate Harmann]

If it's just a couple of little flat spots, they can wait until the next time the saw needs sharpening, and it will make a difference that approaches zero.

Hey Tom - yes that's probably true. Maybe I will just leave it for now :)

[lowell holmes]

If it is a real rust bucket, I will pit 240 grit sandpaper in a pad sander and knock off the bad stuff.

[Tate Harmann]

If it is a real rust bucket, I will pit 240 grit sandpaper in a pad sander and knock off the bad stuff.

Hey Lowell - yep I would do that too...with a bit of lubrication like Windex or WD-40.

I did some more test cuts with this saw last night in maple. Saws great! There's a bit of a catch in it towards the handle when sawing so I may have a wonkey tooth or something. I may refine more or just leave it until the next sharpening. Either way it works much better than it did before the teeth were recut :)

[lowell holmes]

If you are going to restore old saws, be aware of this site. . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=taintor+saw+set&oq=taint&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j69i60j69i61j0l2.14015j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Tate Harmann]

If you are going to restore old saws, be aware of this site. . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=taintor+saw+set&oq=taint&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j69i60j69i61j0l2.14015j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

"Be aware" or "beware" ? Haha. My saw set is a cheap Stanley No. 442 - I know it's not the best but works fine to set teeth.

[lowell holmes]

Check this site and get a Taintor saw set. I have five, but the Taintor is the one I use.

https://www.google.com/search?q=taintor+saw+set&oq=taintor&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.13572j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Tate Harmann]

OK - thanks for the tip :)