Levels for leveling a slider

[mark mcfarlane]

My Minimax CU300 has been up and running for about 18 months, and I feel like it is time to go back through and recalibrate all my machines to bring out the next level of precision.

> I'm curious what kind of level people are using to level their sliding table saw cast surface. I'm not speaking of the slider, but rather the main cast saw base.

I don't expect to get the cast surface perfectly level, but I want the left/right tilt to be identical on the infeed and outfeed side of the machine so that the top is planar, not twisted.

Would the level built into a Starrett combination square be suitable, maybe with some feeler gauges so I can get the bubble perfectly centered on the infeed side, then use the same feeler gauge thickness and location on the outfeed side...?

The precision levels that let you dial in an adjustment to the bubble would be helpful for this type of 'relative leveling', but I am having a hard time justifying spending $300 for something like Lamb Toolworks Precision Level (https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/aad005a8-bc58-4c0c-b6b1-867773239d83/downloads/1csc4i96o_99762.pdf) for a once a year machine check.

[Erik Loza]

Mark, we’re talking about the saw/shaper cast iron table, right? Is it actually twisted? From what I recall, that top is mounted around the perimeter. One thing I remember is that sometimes there is an inherent cup in the middle of the table from the weight of the saw and shaper units. Not really a problem in the real world but it could drive you nuts trying to take it out.

Erik

[Richard Coers]

If you are after high precision, you need equivalent tools to measure that precision. Starrett does a great job with their tools, but that bubble in a combination square is not precision. I would assume Ebay would be the place to find a precision Starrett level and straightedge. I don't see the need to rush to buy new tools, it's been running like it is for the past 18 months.

[Jeff Heath]

I think most people would be pretty surprised at how much cast iron will twist, move, and settle. Leveling a machine with precision equipment is never a bad idea, but for woodworking machines, most don't even give it a consideration.

I have a Starrett machinists level (actually a couple), that I use to level my machines. To give you an example, when I first set up my metalworking lathe in my shop (a 10,000 lb. Monarch Series 61), it had several thousandth's of twist in the bed, and this is immediately noticeable in an precision part you are trying to make. After leveling the machine in both directions, slowly but surely, I was able to dial in the accuracy of the lathe. Did the same thing to my mill.

If your base is out of whack, and your floor is uneven, it would certainly benefit you to level your saw. I own a Martin T17 slider, and the literature from Martin clearly discusses the importance of leveling the machine to the accuracy at which it will perform. If you seek "next level" performance and accuracy from your machine, then I think the time invested in leveling it is well worth the cause. I spent a ridiculous amount of time hand scraping the cutterhead mounting blocks, and ways of my 16" jointer, when I restored it. I was rewarded with a jointer that is the most accurate I have ever had the pleasure of working with.

I don't think you need to invest in a Master Precision's Level (#199), but a good quality Starrett #98, which is what I own in a couple different sizes.....15" and 8", will quickly get you set up.

A big part of your process is going to be choosing leveling feet that are easily adjustable in small increments. I am not familiar with your saw, and am not aware of whether or not they are built in. My Monarch lathe has 8 leveling feet built into the monstrous cast iron base. If you go on youtube, you will find quite a few video's about making a decent set of screw-type leveling feet. Or you can certainly buy them online from McMaster Carr, Grainger, etc....

[mark mcfarlane]

To add to what I am trying to accomplish:

There isn't a bad twist in the cabinet, but it is not perfectly level front and back. I used wood and paper shims to level it initially. I think some new maple shims will do the trick.

I carefully set up the CU300 when it was new, and adjusted the slider so it sawed beautifully and accurately. 90 degrees was dead on,...

Then a year later I started working with the shaper. That was a nightmare. I spent 2 days in the middle of a project readjusting the slider so I could get repeatable results, e.g. a consistent groove along the length of a 48" board. The demands on slider accuracy for a shaper are much higher: the height above the cast iron at the cutter head cannot vary as the slider moves. That's not a big issue for sawing.

Strangely, the height of my slider above the cast table changes as the slider is moved. e.g. measuring at the saw blade I could dial in .002 on one point on the slider, but at other points along the slider it went below the cast table or much farther above. And these changes were not in a consistent manner, i.e. no simple geometry of two planes sliding past each other, so I concluded the slider or the channel it runs on is/are probably 'warped'

During the slider adjustments for the shaper I must have also changed my toe because 90 degrees is now off a hair.

So I want to start the process all over again.


I'll likely start a different thread for the slider setup next week, after I finish a project. FWIW, There are 7 bolts for the slider adjustment. 5 of them are obvious height adjustments (2 fore and aft, 1 in the middle of the carriage). The other 2 bolts are much thinner and I can't really figure out what they are for. They are not in the parts manual. I have ignored them so far. I wonder if they are something used during assembly that were supposed to be removed in the factory,....

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, we’re talking about the saw/shaper cast iron table, right? Is it actually twisted? From what I recall, that top is mounted around the perimeter. One thing I remember is that sometimes there is an inherent cup in the middle of the table from the weight of the saw and shaper units. Not really a problem in the real world but it could drive you nuts trying to take it out.

Erik

Erik, There is a .011" dip along the left edge, between the saw blade and shaper spindle. I'm not too worried about that small dip, as long as I can hit the spindle at a repeatable height along the length of the slider's travel.

[mark mcfarlane]

I think most people would be pretty surprised at how much cast iron will twist, move, and settle. Leveling a machine with precision equipment is never a bad idea, but for woodworking machines, most don't even give it a consideration.

I have a Starrett machinists level (actually a couple), that I use to level my machines. To give you an example, when I first set up my metalworking lathe in my shop (a 10,000 lb. Monarch Series 61), it had several thousandth's of twist in the bed, and this is immediately noticeable in an precision part you are trying to make. After leveling the machine in both directions, slowly but surely, I was able to dial in the accuracy of the lathe. Did the same thing to my mill.

If your base is out of whack, and your floor is uneven, it would certainly benefit you to level your saw. I own a Martin T17 slider, and the literature from Martin clearly discusses the importance of leveling the machine to the accuracy at which it will perform. If you seek "next level" performance and accuracy from your machine, then I think the time invested in leveling it is well worth the cause. I spent a ridiculous amount of time hand scraping the cutterhead mounting blocks, and ways of my 16" jointer, when I restored it. I was rewarded with a jointer that is the most accurate I have ever had the pleasure of working with.

I don't think you need to invest in a Master Precision's Level (#199), but a good quality Starrett #98, which is what I own in a couple different sizes.....15" and 8", will quickly get you set up.

A big part of your process is going to be choosing leveling feet that are easily adjustable in small increments. I am not familiar with your saw, and am not aware of whether or not they are built in. My Monarch lathe has 8 leveling feet built into the monstrous cast iron base. If you go on youtube, you will find quite a few video's about making a decent set of screw-type leveling feet. Or you can certainly buy them online from McMaster Carr, Grainger, etc....

Thanks Jeff. That Starrett #98 is still over $200 for a 12" version. I'm wondering if this level from Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Leveler-Graduation-measurement-Groove/dp/B00K1NOK3E?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_5) would be 'good enough' for what I am trying to accomplish. Another option would be to get the 6" Starrett #98 for $100 and just stick a 12" chunk of maple beneath it.

[David Kumm]

Brian Lamb at Lambtoolworks has a nice level for that purpose. Ebay and CL are also sources for machinist levels. Get pictures to show the base isn't bunged up and the vials are good and an old level will accomplish the same thing as a new one. level isn't as important as repeatability. Dave

[Peter Christensen]

Shars Tools has one for $80 and is more than good enough for leveling woodworking machines. If you need to measure over a longer distance the master level sitting on top of a high quality level like a Sabila works.

https://www.shars.com/products/measuring/levels/12-master-precisions-level

[Mark Bolton]

Ive never leveled any of our tools with anything more than an 80" stabila level and a rotary laser. In all honestly in my opinion other than relation to adjacent equipment, or a CNC, some of your best tweaks will come from sound, eye, and test cuts. I setup a less than stellar slider 10 years ago and it still cuts dead square at 100" to this day.

I really dont think you need precision instruments for this equipment and Im not saying that wood isnt best cut at .001" if possible. CNC has brought that to the forefront. But you dont need an 1100 dollar level to get there.

[David Kumm]

I think some are missing what Mark is trying to do here. A sliding table on a saw can't be set well unless the cast iron is flat. Newer saws in particular with thinner cast tables and internals hung off them tend to have dips and waves in the cast iron top that makes it hard to set the sliding table. While the extrusion itself often bows a little at the extreme ends ( or ttips slightly at the end of travel ), it is pretty flat, often better than the cast iron. setting a machinist level all around the fixed table gives you an idea if there are areas that need adjustment. A long level is not useful. A bubble that measures in very tiny increments is needed as well. .005 might not sound like much but it will drive you crazy if it causes a slider to dip below the cast iron on part of the stroke but ride above it on another. If you want the slider to be at .002 all the way ( saw shaper needs this ) you need the level to make the cast iron flat, not level. Dave

[Warren Lake]

I started with a Stabila level and found setting up the old SCM a pain., Primitive bearing system on the sliding table made it more so. Other thing is that level was hard to get as the shims i put in that were laminate thick would raise one of four contact points and one or two others were then not making full contact. A threaded foot type thing would have dialed in much easier. This is not like a cabinet where things bend and distort. The machine has a thick steel base and the top is not going to change in flatness, it is what it is based on whatever from manufacturer, to the years its been around, how it was used and how much use. Look at a machine that had a power feed and after lots of miles it will be down in the pressure area of the feeder.

When I started checking the top I found the top was out, well out, never mind setting up to .002, I didnt have a chance if the top varies and was down .005 going by memory around the blade area I started to make my top flat and until its close other fine numbers cant be obtained.

Id be putting a straight edge on your top front to back side to side front to back and cross ways corner to corner and see what you are starting with. New or not.

[Rod Sheridan]

Erik, There is a .011" dip along the left edge, between the saw blade and shaper spindle. I'm not too worried about that small dip, as long as I can hit the spindle at a repeatable height along the length of the slider's travel.

Hi Mark, if you’re worried about a reference from the sliding table to spindle height, the cast iron table is irrelevant.

For example when making tenons, the work is on the sliding table, which is higher than the cast iron table. In fact, many tenon tables are much higher than the cast iron table, maybe 8 to 20mm higher.

Hopefully I’ve understood your question correctly........Regards, Rod

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark, if you’re worried about a reference from the sliding table to spindle height, the cast iron table is irrelevant.

For example when making tenons, the work is on the sliding table, which is higher than the cast iron table. In fact, many tenon tables are much higher than the cast iron table, maybe 8 to 20mm higher.

Hopefully I’ve understood your question correctly........Regards, Rod

Thanks Rod. The machine in question is a CU300 combo machine. Shaper cuts on short sections of end grain, such as tenons, don't present the big alignment problem. The alignment gets trickier if you try shaping an 'always exactly centered' groove in the side of an 8' long board while still having good alignment at the front of the saw blade.

This is where I am coming from.

[Warren Lake]

show us what you are doing, material on the table how wide it is, see the distance of table fence cutter etc. If you are running a style to a shaper cutter to cut a slot and its flat on the table should be fine, if your material is not straight or your table is not straight should still be fine if you are using a feeder or a feather board because pressure is holding it down.

[mark mcfarlane]

show us what you are doing, material on the table how wide it is, see the distance of table fence cutter etc. If you are running a style to a shaper cutter to cut a slot and its flat on the table should be fine, if your material is not straight or your table is not straight should still be fine if you are using a feeder or a feather board because pressure is holding it down.

Hi Warren. The CU300 spindle is very close to the sliding table. If you are shaping a long and wide board (even with a feeder because the wheels are going to be over both the cast and slider, unless you run very skinny wheels), the height of the sliding table at the spindle becomes important along the entire length of the slider. Wide boards don't 'see' the cast top, they ride on but slider, but skinny boards ride solely on the cast top.

[Warren Lake]

id have to see it get what you are saying. from what you said then id just make up something to go onto the table saw section close the cutter and run my style on top of it so the sliding table cant mess you up. Its an instand solution.

I think on my small sliding table you can just slide the table out of the way. realize you are talking shaper and not table saw blade and I dont know the machine.

Also define skinny, what width for the sliding table out of the equation? 2 or 3" or? Seems to me a sliding table set flush in ukse would not be a big deal, who cares if the material rubs on the saw table surface, main weight of anything heavy would be on the sliding table anyway.

[Dennis Yamamoto]

Mark,

You should first make sure that your cast iron table is flat with no twist. Use an accurate straightedge, feeler gauge and level like Brian Lamb's level for this.

You then need to make sure that the aluminum slider is coplanar to the cast iron, and rides at a consistent height above the cast iron. See the Felder User's Group, and review David Best's "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for Felder machines. I would guess that the adjustment for both the Minimax and Felder sliders is similar.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Dennis and Warren. I understand the need to level the cast and align the sider. This thread is about recommendations for less expensive but serviceable alternatives to Lamb Toolworks' or Starrett's $300 levels

[Warren Lake]

levelling my machine made zero difference to the top, the base is thick and strong you lift a corner others lift I was trying get that point accross its not a cabinet its not flexing and changing the top level makes no difference to my top being flat,

[Bill Dufour]

What is the floor structure? if it is wood you can not level it accurately and have it stay that way seasonaly. Are there provisions for hold down bolts or just supporting feet. What is the machine weight and how big are the pads under the leveling bolts to spread the load out.
Bill D.

[Greg R Bradley]

Thanks Dennis and Warren. I understand the need to level the cast and align the sider. This thread is about recommendations for less expensive but serviceable alternatives to Lamb Toolworks' or Starrett's $300 levels
See Peter Christensen post #9 on this:
https://www.shars.com/products/measu...ecisions-level

(https://www.shars.com/products/measuring/levels/12-master-precisions-level)They are incredibly good for $100 and they appear to be on sale for $79. These seem to be as good as the SPI low end (Taiwan) 8" which is $180. However, it is 12" so make sure that fits your need. Shars also have an 8". I have the SPI high end (Swiss) 8" which is about $550 and a Chinese Military Surplus 4" I got from HJE. I have zero input on what works well leveling a slider as I have no experience with that.

Not a big fan of the Starrett 98 but that is the old standard. Lamb looks like an aluminum body with a Starrett 98 replacement or clone vial on top. Starrett sells replacements because that design is so easily broken.

SPI reference. Go to page 174: https://www.swissprec.com/catalog.html?pageLabel=C

(https://www.swissprec.com/catalog.html?pageLabel=C)

[Jeff Heath]

Not a big fan of the Starrett 98 but that is the old standard. Lamb looks like an aluminum body with a Starrett 98 replacement or clone vial on top. Starrett sells replacements because that design is so easily broken.


(https://www.swissprec.com/catalog.html?pageLabel=C)

What's not to like about a Starrett #98 machinists level? They are cast iron, and NOT aluminum, for a really good reason. Aluminum moves way too much to be of any quality for a long period of time. There's a reason why all the top manufacturers of machinists levels, camelback straightedges, etc....are made from cast iron. As far as being easily broken, I don't even know what that means. If you drop or knock any precision measuring equipment, it's going to not service you well. Handle it properly, and then store it properly (mine came with a very nice wooden case, padded inside) and there's nothing to worry about regarding breakage.

Incidentally, I wasn't recommending dropping $300 on a new one. I see them for sale all the time around $100, and I guess I was lucky when I found my bigger one for $75. It has serviced me very well for a decade.

If you are worried about the cost, buy a used one, get your machine set up, and then sell it.

The desire to have quality equipment, but then resist the necessary tools to support the investment properly, is mind boggling to me. The time spent messing up quality timbers alone is reason enough, to me, to always buy the best tools I can, and make sure I have them set up properly, the first time. An annual maintenance schedule of checking all my tools, equipment, greasing bearings, wiping and cleaning up, a fine tooth brush on gears to remove gunk and grime, etc......takes one day a year, and is the very best investment I can ever make in my shop gear to ensure that I can continue to produce high quality work without having to continually trouble shoot problems with my tools. Invest in quality, and cry once. I applaud Mark's desire to fine tune his machines to their highest capabilities. You don't have to break the bank open to invest in quality used precision tools to support your gear. When suggestions for support equipment from horror freight and chinese military surplus get mentioned, my stomach begins to churn in a very uncomfortable way. That stuff is junk, and should be sent back where it came from.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Warren. The CU300 spindle is very close to the sliding table. If you are shaping a long and wide board (even with a feeder because the wheels are going to be over both the cast and slider, unless you run very skinny wheels), the height of the sliding table at the spindle becomes important along the entire length of the slider. Wide boards don't 'see' the cast top, they ride on but slider, but skinny boards ride solely on the cast top.

Hi Mark, if I'm using a feeder the sliding table is locked in place so the height in relation to the spindle is fixed........Rod.

[Greg R Bradley]

What's not to like about a Starrett #98 machinists level? They are cast iron, and NOT aluminum, for a really good reason. Aluminum moves way too much to be of any quality for a long period of time. There's a reason why all the top manufacturers of machinists levels, camelback straightedges, etc....are made from cast iron. As far as being easily broken, I don't even know what that means. If you drop or knock any precision measuring equipment, it's going to not service you well. Handle it properly, and then store it properly (mine came with a very nice wooden case, padded inside) and there's nothing to worry about regarding breakage.

Incidentally, I wasn't recommending dropping $300 on a new one. I see them for sale all the time around $100, and I guess I was lucky when I found my bigger one for $75. It has serviced me very well for a decade.

If you are worried about the cost, buy a used one, get your machine set up, and then sell it.

The desire to have quality equipment, but then resist the necessary tools to support the investment properly, is mind boggling to me. The time spent messing up quality timbers alone is reason enough, to me, to always buy the best tools I can, and make sure I have them set up properly, the first time. An annual maintenance schedule of checking all my tools, equipment, greasing bearings, wiping and cleaning up, a fine tooth brush on gears to remove gunk and grime, etc......takes one day a year, and is the very best investment I can ever make in my shop gear to ensure that I can continue to produce high quality work without having to continually trouble shoot problems with my tools. Invest in quality, and cry once. I applaud Mark's desire to fine tune his machines to their highest capabilities. You don't have to break the bank open to invest in quality used precision tools to support your gear. When suggestions for support equipment from horror freight and chinese military surplus get mentioned, my stomach begins to churn in a very uncomfortable way. That stuff is junk, and should be sent back where it came from.
Think you misinterpreted my post in every way possible.

Did you miss the part where I own several Machinist Levels including an SPI? The SPI is similar to the Starrett 199, which is $900. Actually, I just sold 4 Starrett 98s.

A 98 was incredible in its day but that was a long time ago. There are better ways to make a level today that simply weren't available 100 years ago. Making a narrow/tall cast iron piece and then whacking it across a beam to make sure it doesn't contact in the middle was great, 75 years ago. Starrett improved on the design with the Master Level but people keep getting stuck on the "standard" without understanding the reason.

The Chinese Military Surplus is a fairly decent level that is a unique configuration. Short, with two small pads, so it is great for chasing small deviations like finding dips in a flat surface. Probably built for some special use.

Starrett seems to hold some magic to the name even when their products are not even close to good for the money. When I went through the equipment from a machine shop, we kept very little Starrett equipment. Great squares and vernier calipers but the mics all had to go. Just traded a set of Starrett 0-12" mics for just these two items:
401986
In case you are curious about the best micrometers available:
http://www.longislandindicator.com/p109.html

[Jeff Heath]

I don't understand where $900 levels and tenth's mics have anything to do with leveling Mark's table saw.

There are thousands of machinists that would disagree with you that Starrett tools aren't any good, and maybe a few woodworkers, too. Maybe your set of 0-12 mics wasn't taken care of. I have a full set of 436's up to 12", and a few bigger ones, bought as needed, and they measure accurately to a thousandth ever single time.....which is all they were designed to do. Sorry....off topic....this has nothing to do with leveling Mark's slider.

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark, if I'm using a feeder the sliding table is locked in place so the height in relation to the spindle is fixed........Rod.

Thanks Rod, that sounds like a good idea that for some reason escaped me. This approach could also simplify the slider alignment with some practical compromises. OK, we are hijacking my thread on inexpensive but good levels.

[mark mcfarlane]

Shars Tools has one for $80 and is more than good enough for leveling woodworking machines. If you need to measure over a longer distance the master level sitting on top of a high quality level like a Sabila works.

https://www.shars.com/products/measuring/levels/12-master-precisions-level

Does anyone know if the Shars 12" level has an adjustment on the main level. Their 8" level mentions the adjustment screw but not the 12", and I read somewhere that this feature is only on the 8" level.

Such a feature would be nice for this application, just 'zero' out the level on one end of the saw, and match it on the other.

12" would be ideal for me, that is the exact width of the cast top on my saw (not counting the j/p cast top that folds up.

[Peter Christensen]

I don't know about the screw but if you play with it you will likely never get it back to zero each direction. You defeat the purpose of such a precision instrument. Just set it down and read how many lines over the bubble is. Do the same at the other location. Now if it is too far out of level for that you put shims or feeler gauges under one end of it and do the same at the other location. If you want to level something like you're thinking get Beall Level Box or equivalent. The Shars level can detect the difference of a sheet of printer paper over a distance of 7 feet. That is what 0.005" over a foot equates to.

[Greg R Bradley]

The Shars 12" simply MUST be adjustable, like any machinist level. You do see where some Chinese or Indian or ?? manufacturer will design something without understanding how they work but the people at Shars understand the use of the tools. It's not Harbor Freight or eBay or Amazon.

I would suggest that you get some info on how you use a level for your slider. I'm not sure the 12" level fitting all the way across the bed is what you want. Machinist Levels are frequently used to find dips, valley, etc. on flat surfaces. Even the lower end Machinist Levels are rated for much higher accuracy than you could possibly need to level the entire machine. The low precision levels generally have each graduation on the vial corresponding to 0.005" per foot.

So a typical level will probably never need to be adjusted since you really need to know what you are doing to adjust it.

[Jeff Heath]

These machinist levels are designed to be able to be recalibrated. Anytime you use one, you always want to check it first, to ensure it's calibrated correctly. In order to do so, you are basically checking to ensure it reads the same when flipped 180° in a level position on a granite plate. You can go to YouTube and watch any number of good video's showing how to calibrate one. As Greg stated earlier, they can get out of whack, but they are easily recalibrated with a slight adjustment. A video of the process is far easier to watch and learn from than typing 1000 words on the procedure.

[mark mcfarlane]

...
I would suggest that you get some info on how you use a level for your slider. I'm not sure the 12" level fitting all the way across the bed is what you want. Machinist Levels are frequently used to find dips, valley, etc. on flat surfaces. Even the lower end Machinist Levels are rated for much higher accuracy than you could possibly need to level the entire machine. The low precision levels generally have each graduation on the vial corresponding to 0.005" per foot.

....

I use a 36" Veritas straight edge with feeler gauges for finding dips/high spots. I just want a better, adjustable level to create a planar top, and then a coplanar slider.

The process I follow: is similar to what is shown here (https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/aad005a8-bc58-4c0c-b6b1-867773239d83/downloads/1csc4i96o_99762.pdf), by Brian Lamb at Lamb Toolworks.

Regarding the optimal length: my cast top is 13" wide and the slider is probably a little less than 12". A 12" level will fit on the cast top (14" would not, it would hit either the slider or the flip up jointer tables). 12" will overhang the slider nicely for height adjustments.

Regarding why the adjustable level is helpful for this task: shiming is fine for leveling the cast top, but shiming requires placing the shims in the exact same spot every time you move the level. Based on 2 previous day-long sessions setting up a slider, I expect I'll move the level 50-100 times, up and down the slider while sliding it during the adjustment. Also, since the slider width is less then the length of a 12" level, you can't just shim at the end of the level because one end will hang off the slider.

For this particular process, shimming is a PITA. Its much faster to set an adjustable level once and then move it around for the rest of the day.

Regarding someone who essentially commented I would screw up the level if I adjusted it: I don't care about the absolute level to the earths gravitational field, my machine is already 'level enough'. The problem at hand is simply to create two parallel planes offset by a few thousandths, as quickly as possible. It's also fairly easy to reset an adjustable level to the earth's gravitational field by adjusting/flipping it 180 degrees.

It seems I am hijacking my own thread again, but people keep asking questions and it appears a few assumed I don't know what I am doing. I promise that is only partially true,

Again, back to the original post, all I am asking for in this thread is a source for a decent, adjustable level.

I'll try to call Shars tomorrow and verify the adjustability of their 12" model. FWIW, there is an identical looking level by "Generic" on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Leveler-Graduation-measurement-Groove/dp/B00K1NO…) that claims to have an adjustable main vial.

[mark mcfarlane]

...I'll try to call Shars tomorrow and verify the adjustability of their 12" model. ...

I called Shars. The main vial of Shar's 12" Master Precision Level is adjustable. The adjustment is on the end of the level. The 8" level's adjustment is on the top.

Mine should arrive next Wednesday. On sale now, $99.41 with shipping.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark, if I'm using a feeder the sliding table is locked in place so the height in relation to the spindle is fixed........Rod.

Rod, I laid in bed mulling this over. Locking the slider when using the feeder would work well for wide boards, like raising a panel, but wouldn't seem to work well on narrower boards where a small percentage of the board is over the slider and the rest is over the cast. In this situation the feeder would tilt the board being shaped if the cast and slider are not dead even at the spindle.

In this scenario of a semi-narrow board, do you put your feeder over the slider and not up against the shaper fence ?

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, I laid in bed mulling this over. Locking the slider when using the feeder would work well for wide boards, like raising a panel, but wouldn't seem to work well on narrower boards where a small percentage of the board is over the slider and the rest is over the cast. In this situation the feeder would tilt the board being shaped if the cast and slider are not dead even at the spindle.

In this scenario of a semi-narrow board, do you put your feeder over the slider and not up against the shaper fence ?

Hi Mark, if I'm using the stock hood and fence the feeder is over the cast table as you generally want it as close to the cutter as possible for material control reasons.

Yes the sliding table is higher than the cast iron table, not enough to worry about. If my cutter is 6" away from the sliding table and my sliding table is 0.004" higher than the cast table that gives me an angle error of 0.0382 degrees. I have no idea how I would measure that, I'm not a tool maker.

I can say that I've never had a problem with that approach to machining wood components...................Rod

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Rod. My setup is a little tighter, about 4" from cutter to slider, but I get the point. Usually I am shaping something <4" or much more than 4".

The nice thing about locking the slider is I only need to get the slider adjusted very well at one point along its travel and lock it there. We'll see after I re-level the cast and slider if I can get it more consistent, but right now the slider travel is 'wavy' up and down in a way that can't be explained by 2 planes riding past each other. That's another discussion.

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, we’re talking about the saw/shaper cast iron table, right? Is it actually twisted? From what I recall, that top is mounted around the perimeter. One thing I remember is that sometimes there is an inherent cup in the middle of the table from the weight of the saw and shaper units. Not really a problem in the real world but it could drive you nuts trying to take it out.

Erik

FYI, the CU300 has an adjusting rod under the cast top, between the shaper and main blade, that allowed me to get the sag down from .01 to .002.

[mark mcfarlane]

Just a quick thank you to Peter and Greg. The 12" Shars level worked perfectly to align my slider.

[Mike King]

I also recommend the Lamb Toolworks level — I also used it to adjust my thickness Sanders feedbed to be coplanar with the sanding head.