3 phase coverter or VFD?

[Neil Blodgett]

Hi, this is my first thread on here so thanks in advance for any help.
So I just bought a Delta 43-437 Shaper with a Steff 2034 1hp 3 phase power feed. My shop doesn't have 3 phase so I was hoping some of you experts here could help me pick out a phase converter or VFD to run just the power feeder. I'm hoping to keep the price down, under 200 would be nice.
I have a picture of the motor tag but not sure how to post pics yet.
Thanks, Neil

[Mike Henderson]

I'd definitely go with the VFD.

Mike

[Justin Ludwig]

Hi, this is my first thread on here so thanks in advance for any help.
So I just bought a Delta 43-437 Shaper with a Steff 2034 1hp 3 phase power feed. My shop doesn't have 3 phase so I was hoping some of you experts here could help me pick out a phase converter or VFD to run just the power feeder. I'm hoping to keep the price down, under 200 would be nice.
I have a picture of the motor tag but not sure how to post pics yet.
Thanks, Neil

You need to send Jack Forsberg a PM. He'll custom build you a VFD and walk you through setting it up.

[Darcy Warner]

Buy a Fuji from Wolfe automation. Great drives, great prices.

Jack does not build the drive, but ok.

[Martin Siebert]

Last month I found a big planer for the right price, but it was 3 phase. I also do not have 3 phase power in my shop. I called several different companies regarding a phase converter vs. VFD. It sounded like the phase converter was probably a little more thirsty than what I wanted, meaning aside from the high initial cost it would continue to bang on my bank account just from use.
The company I talked to about the VFD was very fair and knowledgeable...I was under the impression there was no downside to a VFD and given the current way everyone rave about them surely this was the way to go. He said I could look forward to getting about 4 to 5 years use out of a VFD and then it would "burn itself out". That was unacceptable to me because the one I needed would have cost over $750.00. VFD's get expensive when the horsepower goes up. The motor was rated at 5hp and he suggested a 7.5 VFD. He did say that a VFD was way more economical to run that a phase converter.
If you only need a 1hp then maybe a VFD is feasible. I opted to wait a few weeks and the single phase planer I wanted came up for sale.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Pretty cheap and simple to buy a 1HP VFD: https://www.factorymation.com/FM50-101-C

Some people make VFDs seem unnecessarily complex and profit from the idea of "custom built" VFDs, but that's beyond silly...

[Dave Cav]

I have (at least) seven VFDs running machines in my shop. Almost all of them are TECOs from Factorymation. I don't baby them, put them in special enclosures, etc, I just run them. Many of them are energized 24/7 and I'm pretty sure quite a few of them are over 7 years old. A 1 HP VFD from Factorymation will work fine and the added advantage is you can really fine tune the speed with it.

[Richard Coers]

I have (at least) seven VFDs running machines in my shop. Almost all of them are TECOs from Factorymation. I don't baby them, put them in special enclosures, etc, I just run them. Many of them are energized 24/7 and I'm pretty sure quite a few of them are over 7 years old. A 1 HP VFD from Factorymation will work fine and the added advantage is you can really fine tune the speed with it.

Curious about the thought process of buying at least 7 VFDs versus one rotary phase convertor to a 3 phase breaker box and hardwiring the shop.

[Neil Blodgett]

401885
Thanks for all the responses! Sounds like VFD is the way to go. I was hoping I could get one that runs on 120v input but the motor needs 440v. Do they make vfd's that go from 120-440? And do I get one rated for 1HP or a little bigger. Thanks for the help, Im a wicked noob at this 3 phase stuff.
-Neil

[Rod Sheridan]

Curious about the thought process of buying at least 7 VFDs versus one rotary phase convertor to a 3 phase breaker box and hardwiring the shop.

Richard, if all you need is "sort of close" 3 phase power, an inexpensive converter can be the way to go.

If you need accurate 3 phase power then it's another step in price for a true 3 phase output converter.

A VFD gives you advantages that a converter doesn't, soft start, variable speed, and braking, depending upon your application those can be very important features.

When I built my band mill, I went with a 3 phase motor and VFD for weight and portability considerations......Diann's lathe has a VFD, variable speed and soft start are really nice......Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

401885
Thanks for all the responses! Sounds like VFD is the way to go. I was hoping I could get one that runs on 120v input but the motor needs 440v. Do they make vfd's that go from 120-440? And do I get one rated for 1HP or a little bigger. Thanks for the help, Im a wicked noob at this 3 phase stuff.
-Neil

No, you can't get a VFD that converts 120 volts to 480 volts.

Your best bet would be to sell the stock feeder and buy a single phase unit, in that size they will be available in 120 or 240 volt input.

If you really want to use your stock feeder you would need a 3 phase auto transformer with a 240/480 ratio rated at 1 KVA, which could be connected between your VFD and stock feeder motor.

regards, Rod.

[Neil Blodgett]

Pretty cheap and simple to buy a 1HP VFD: https://www.factorymation.com/FM50-101-C

Some people make VFDs seem unnecessarily complex and profit from the idea of "custom built" VFDs, but that's beyond silly...

Will that vfd you linked work with my 1hp 440v motor?

[Neil Blodgett]

No, you can't get a VFD that converts 120 volts to 480 volts.

Your best bet would be to sell the stock feeder and buy a single phase unit, in that size they will be available in 120 or 240 volt input.

If you really want to use your stock feeder you would need a 3 phase auto transformer with a 240/480 ratio rated at 1 KVA, which could be connected between your VFD and stock feeder motor.

regards, Rod.

Dont want to be a pain, but are there vfd's that go from 220 to 440? I would really like to make this work but that transformer plus vfd sounds way too complicated.

[Darcy Warner]

You will need a transformer no matter if on single phase side or 3phase side.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Will that vfd you linked work with my 1hp 440v motor?

Sorry, no. I don't know of any VFDs that will do 120->460. I'm not even sure you could find one that does 240->460.

As Rod said, you could use a 120->240 VFD (like the one I linked), then a transformer that would do 240->460 (here's an example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Transformer-Y-N-230-380-400-440-460V-Auto-Transformer-1KVA-F41000-208/173295359017?hash=item2859355429:g:0vwAAOSw9GhYfV-i:rk:5:pf:0)

But at that cost, it's almost certainly cheaper to buy a different feeder and sell the one you have. Or, you could even buy a new 1-phase, 120V motor for your feeder for cheaper than this...

[Justin Ludwig]

Jack does not build the drive, but ok.
So the podcast I listened to last week, with Jack as guest stated he’s built over 800 VFDs for people was a dream?

[Dan Friedrichs]

So the podcast I listened to last week, with Jack as guest stated he’s built over 800 VFDs for people was a dream?

If you think about it, the electronics that go into a VFD, the circuit boards, the injection molded plastic enclosures, the microprocessor programming, the user interface, the manual, the safety testing and certifications....that's a big chunk of engineering. It's multi-millions of dollars worth of work. Obviously, you don't sell 800 VFDs for ~$500/ea and make money. So, logically, no, he's not building VFDs.

He may be taking commercial VFDs, putting them inside a secondary enclosure, maybe adding some different buttons, and providing technical support.

[Darcy Warner]

So the podcast I listened to last week, with Jack as guest stated he’s built over 800 VFDs for people was a dream?

I suppose if he has a factory that he builds them in, in China somewhere, sure.

[Jared Sankovich]

So the podcast I listened to last week, with Jack as guest stated he’s built over 800 VFDs for people was a dream?

He mentioned in the podcast he found a manufacturer in China that he sources them from.

I'm with Darcy, the Fuji VFDs are really nice units

[Neil Blodgett]

Well I dont know what you fellas are going on about with podcasts and this Jack guy but I digress. So turns out the motor does run on 220 3 phase. At least thats what the guy I bought it from tells me. So I rigged up a vfd I have hooked to my Supermax drum sander that uses 120v 1phase input and has 220v 3phase output at 1hp and it worked good. Seemed to be pretty fast cranked up to max also. Im going to order that Temco Vfd from factorymation for $130 and I'll report back if anyone would like.
Thanks for the help, Neil

[Richard Coers]

Richard, if all you need is "sort of close" 3 phase power, an inexpensive converter can be the way to go.

If you need accurate 3 phase power then it's another step in price for a true 3 phase output converter.

A VFD gives you advantages that a converter doesn't, soft start, variable speed, and braking, depending upon your application those can be very important features.

When I built my band mill, I went with a 3 phase motor and VFD for weight and portability considerations......Diann's lathe has a VFD, variable speed and soft start are really nice......Rod.

I fully understand the advantages, I have a DIY rotary phase convertor and a VFD on my Oneway lathe. What I don't understand is how more than 7 VFDs compares to a hardwired 3 phase shop. I feel a rotary phase convertor will outlive cheap VFDs by a long shot. If the rotary phase convertor will last twice as long, then we are talking about more than 14 VFDs in the equation.

[Chris Parks]

There is one VFD that will convert 220 volts to 415 volts that I know of and it ain't cheap. It was sourced out of the UK but I can't find a link to it at the moment.

[Dave Cav]

Curious about the thought process of buying at least 7 VFDs versus one rotary phase convertor to a 3 phase breaker box and hardwiring the shop.

I got the machines one at a time over the course of several years. Some came with starters, some with pieces of starters, some in pieces. With a VFD I don't need to buy and set up a separate three phase panel, three phase distribution, fool around with magnetic starters, heaters, etc, or mess around with an RPC and listen to it run.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Well I dont know what you fellas are going on about with podcasts and this Jack guy but I digress. So turns out the motor does run on 220 3 phase. At least thats what the guy I bought it from tells me. So I rigged up a vfd I have hooked to my Supermax drum sander that uses 120v 1phase input and has 220v 3phase output at 1hp and it worked good. Seemed to be pretty fast cranked up to max also. Im going to order that Temco Vfd from factorymation for $130 and I'll report back if anyone would like.
Thanks for the help, Neil

We do have a tendency to digress :)

Huh. So you hooked that motor to 240 and it worked? Based on the nameplate you posted, it doesn't appear to be a dual-voltage motor, so it's possible you're just running it at half voltage? That is actually not good for it - it will potentially overheat (the technical reason is that the V/Hz ratio is incorrect and it could saturate the magnetic core of the motor). It may be possible to compensate for this by programming the VFD with a different "base frequency".

[Darcy Warner]

We do have a tendency to digress :)

Huh. So you hooked that motor to 240 and it worked? Based on the nameplate you posted, it doesn't appear to be a dual-voltage motor, so it's possible you're just running it at half voltage? That is actually not good for it - it will potentially overheat (the technical reason is that the V/Hz ratio is incorrect and it could saturate the magnetic core of the motor). It may be possible to compensate for this by programming the VFD with a different "base frequency".

I agree, it's a single voltage 440v motor.

[Bill Dufour]

I would consider replacing the motor with a 208 three phase and supplying it from a vfd. I think the variable speed is worth keeping for this machine. Or go ahead and use a single phase motor.
What kind of switch controls the motor? If it has a contactor control voltages will be off unless it has a transformer that can be rewired for lower inputs. Good luck finding a European coil of the new correct voltage.
Bill D

[Dan Friedrichs]

And, Neil, the speed of an induction motor doesn't depend on the voltage. So saying that it seems to be going "fast enough" is not an indication that you're running it at the "correct" voltage and not overheating it.

[Chris Balton]

I agree with what has been said about VFDs, I use 3 in my shop and am planning on adding more to replace old static phase converters. There are many advantages of VFD's over rotary converters, soft starting (which reduces start up current, especially on machines with a lot of inertia, like my 30" band-saw), variable speeds, no waiting for the rotary converter to start first, and lower power consumption. Regarding your 440 volt motor, I suggest you take it to a motor shop and see if they can rewire it to 230 volts. I have never seen a 3 phase motor than could not be re-wired. Years ago I bought a 440 volt hollow chisel mortiser that did not have the usual dual voltage leads in the motor box, I called my local motor shop, they said I could "lift the leads" to the windings and re-configure them for the lower voltage, I did and it worked great. So just because the nameplate only says 440, does not mean it can't be re-wired. Otherwise you will need a transformer to raise your 220-230 volts to 440 volts.

[Corey Pelton]

I’m considering upgrading my Clearvue cyclone 1 phase to a 3 phase motor. I need my DC for shorter bursts, and doing that with the 1 phase is too hard on the motor. Very interested in hearing which way you go. Though in my research, a VFD seems the way to go.

[Chris Parks]

99% of all Clearvues in Australia use a VFD, Cathryn at CV is fairly familiar with that though she does not know the technical details of course.

[Bradley Gray]

I feel a rotary phase convertor will outlive cheap VFDs by a long shot. If the rotary phase convertor will last twice as long, then we are talking about more than 14 VFDs in the equation.

I have a homemade rotary converter that cost me around $50, including a used 3 phase motor. I have been using it for 40 years. I have 15 3 phase machines so it would have cost quite a bit more especially when you roll in replacements.

A couple years ago I added a Kay 10hp RPC that I now use to run my biggest motors and they do run much better mostly because my old idler is 7hp.

I would consider a VFD for a specific machine only if I needed the speed control feature.

[Chris Parks]

Rotary Converters are few and far between in Oz, I have never seen one or heard of one being used.

[Matt Mattingley]

A Vfd. It is a single source conversion for one machine. It can provide soft start, variable speed, breaking, sensor less vector torque settings, and about a dozen other things.

A Rotary phase converter(RPC) is great for many machines and if you have a transformer with machines with different voltages.

The cheapest and dirtiest of them all is a static converter.

At any time if you’re going big-time, there is always phase perfect.

And at any time if you think you’re a superstar, go out and rent yourself a piece of industrial property that has three-phase on it. Or let us know how or what the costs are to bring three-phase into your residential property

I know longer have PM privileges.... so keep posting your problems.... or Call phase perfect.... or any VFD manufacture. And give us your full review.

[Matt Mattingley]

Rotary Converters are few and far between in Oz, I have never seen one or heard of one being used.
Do you have three phase in your residential buildings? North America has what is called a split phase. We have 120 V above ground and 120 V below ground alternating at 60 Hz. This is generated off of one single line of a three phase generation circuit.

In Europe most parts it is a 50 Hz at 220 V single phase. This is only one hotline generated to ground.

RPC’s and VFD’s still work in oz. step up and step down transformers do as well.

In Canada they have 600 V in their industrial sectors. The Canadians must be super silly or there must be a lot of deaths there... it is a big country. Maybe they’re like transmit higher voltage and less amps.

Why are the Canadians throwing around 600 V when the rest of the world plays with 220 or 460/480?

What makes the Canucks so special that their industry has 600 V?

I personally have a bunch of Canadian 600 V equipment in One of my shops. They start, they work, they shut off. This is not black magic.

[Chris Parks]

After the second world war just about every house in Australia had 415V three phase for hot water and also (I think) electric stoves but these days it is not done. I think every industrial building would have it as par for the course @ 415V, what heavier industry have I don't know but Canada and Oz tend to be very similar in some ways. The power supply to homes these days is 220 Volt for everything. It was for this reason we could use the Leeson motor that was supplied from Clearvue for 3 phase applications in the US but the US Govt decided to make that motor illegal so we were forced to use a locally sourced dual voltage motor @ 220V 3 phase or 415V 3 phase. Either way we used a VFD for all the advantages it presents.

[Chris Hachet]

I have (at least) seven VFDs running machines in my shop. Almost all of them are TECOs from Factorymation. I don't baby them, put them in special enclosures, etc, I just run them. Many of them are energized 24/7 and I'm pretty sure quite a few of them are over 7 years old. A 1 HP VFD from Factorymation will work fine and the added advantage is you can really fine tune the speed with it.

I use several of these myself and they have been bullet proof.