Just curious - who considers this woodworking?

[Rich Engelhardt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFWX3EwnO14

Impressive - but - -I can bring myself to call this woodworking.

[Mike Ontko]

I kind of agree. It's more like manufacturing with a wood based material. I cringe when I see videos like this showing big production outfits mass producing pieces that were once produced by the likes of Wegner and Møbler. But then, you could say the same of any mass produced piece of art or craft that starts from an original, be it print work, sculpture, ceramics, even textiles.

[Jim Becker]

As individual woodworkers, we might be uncomfortable with "total automation" like that, but honestly, when you consider the mass market these days, it's the only way that stuff can be produced to be able to sell for the prices that consumers demand. So many folks really don't care how something is made as long as they can buy it at a lower price point. The method here isn't flawed for the purpose because it produces what is needed both physically and financially.

The other thing you have to consider is that many of us, even as individuals, are adopting some automated production techniques, using subtractive CNC or additive 3D printing to make stuff. The reasons are many for that. Good design is still good design and which tools we choose to use merely reflects our preference for how to execute our designs.

[marlin adams]

As a individual I would not own something like that unless I just really had money to burn :). But have to agree with Jim somewaht if I own a small woodworking shop as a business and maybe working by myself or have maybe 1-2 others working for me I would get something like that to run parts like table legs and such. I would still have to create the files on what I want that leg to look like and beable to make a set of 4 to all look alike so I can concentrate on the top or skirt or what ever else that goes into make that said piece.

[Mike Cutler]

It's an argument that has been,and will be, debated as long as there is wood working.
The first time a machine took over a function previously performed by hand some 100+ years ago, there was this same debate. Heck, the spindle moulder killed an entire discipline of wood working virtually over night. Same with the Jointer and Planer, or Thicknesses, for the rest of the world.
Do I considering it "wood working"? Maybe not. But boy I sure can appreciate all of the human minds that went into the machine design, firmware, software, etc. to arrive at that point.
I actually think that machine is rather slow. Three minutes to make a single leg? It's going to take twelve minutes to make four legs. Martin Wassner made a door in 16 minutes and he was walking and talking at the same time.
Is there any less "soul" to that leg, than an individual stile of a cabinet door I've made on my shaper? I don't think so, because in the end it's the design and functionality of the final assemblage that matters most.

Is it cheating that Jim Becker is using a CNC machine to cut out tack trunk parts? Not to me it isn't. The final design evolved and was developed in Jim's mind. The CNC machine is just one of the tools that brings that design to fruition. No more, no less.
It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves. There definitely won't be consensus on the question.

[Ron Citerone]

We are all Neanderthals now!

[Jacob Reverb]

If not woodworking, I'm not sure what word or phrase you'd use...automated CNC wood machining?

[Brad Barnhart]

In some ways, I would tend to agree, in others not so much. Like Mr. Jim said, folks in today's modern ways of life really truthfully do not care or have the first clue how their home furnishings are designed or created, just as long as it is within their budget, and has the looks and style they want.

I personally would not have any purpose for such a beast like that in my shop. If I ain't able to design it with the tools I have available to me in my shop, I figure it won't get done here. Like Mr. Mike mentioned, do I hold it agin' the feller what has a CNC, or creates his projects on his computer, no, I don't. If he feels comfortable using his mind that way, get right after it.

Personally, I am no artist, nor a computer tech, so everything I create is designed in my head. From the list of materials down to measurements and curves, etc. I have always done things that way. To them fellers that have the creativity to design a machine like that, kudos to them!

In the meantime, I don't think it is goin' to pester me or my small wood business out here on the plains of NW Kansas in any way, shape, or form. I'll just keep on keepin' on.

[Richard Coers]

Of course it's woodworking. Would you prefer it to be done with a dozen fixtures and a shaper? What would you call it then?

[Jon Grider]

Impressive, but not inspiring. It is what it is and that's where we're at. I wonder how many legs that machine has to puke out to pay the six figure cost of owning and programming it. I suppose my tailed tools may be an abomination to some hand tool only craftsmen though.
Can't say technology always thrills me. Next we'll have computer self driven Corvettes.

[glenn bradley]

Meet George Jetson,
Jane his wife,
Daughter Judy . . .

[Frank Drackman]

I always fall back on Pye's concept of The Workmanship of Risk to help evaluate if something is woodworking or manufacturing. By his definition, it isn't woodworking.

[Erik Loza]

I call it "manufacturing" but wouldn't NOT call it woodworking. Some craftsman thought of the finished piece and programmed it.

Erik

[ray grundhoefer]

Nice looking table leg , but no not woodworking.

[Martin Wasner]

Using anything other than the fleshy tools God/Yahweh/Allah/Buddha/Zeus/Mother Gaia/Krishna/Peter Cottontail gave you is cheating.

If you think differently, you'd be incorrect.

[William Adams]

A person who works with their hands is a labourer.
A person who works with their hands and their mind is a craftsman (craftsperson).
A person who works with their hands and their mind and their heart is an artist.

It's wood machining, and since there's no possibility other than: part machined as envisioned or flawed part which is discarded, there's nothing interesting about it beyond the economics and technology of it.

The thing which saddens me here is how much of the wood is becoming sawdust --- there's no possibility of cutting off sections of the blank to use for smaller projects? (Shades of the lamps by Louis Comfort Tiffany being made of scraps from stained glass production)

[Michael Costa]

Is splitting fire wood with an axe woodworking?

[Doug Garson]

I would say that it is woodworking, the machine is a woodworking machine and the machine operator is a machine operator (not a woodworker).

[Doug Garson]

Using anything other than the fleshy tools God/Yahweh/Allah/Buddha/Zeus/Mother Gaia/Krishna/Peter Cottontail gave you is cheating.

If you think differently, you'd be incorrect.
I don't think God/Yahweh/Allah/Buddha/Zeus/Mother Gaia/Krishna/Peter Cottontail gave us any tools, he/she gave us the ability to imagine, design and make a whole host of tools.

[John TenEyck]

If you hadn't seen how it was made what would you say? Something like "Wow, whoever made that did some really nice work." I'll bet. Of course it's woodworking. The Shakers used every mechanical advantage they could building their products. Stickley did the same, and I'm sure many others. If you want to make a couple hundred thousand legs like that you use a machine like that, at least you do if you want to make money.

John

[Tom M King]

So, they aren't allowed to exhibit one at IWF?

[Erik Loza]

so, they aren't allowed to exhibit one at iwf?

Hahaha!.....

[Gary Ragatz]

In some ways, I would tend to agree, in others not so much. Like Mr. Jim said, folks in today's modern ways of life really truthfully do not care or have the first clue how their home furnishings are designed or created, just as long as it is within their budget, and has the looks and style they want.

I see this sort of comment about furniture buyers crop up on this forum pretty regularly, and I don't think it's quite accurate or quite fair. Pretty much everyone who's not Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos has to make some budget-related trade-offs in life. If someone buys a less-expensive product, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't understand or don't appreciate the tangible differences between products - but they have to prioritize.

My wife and I built a new home a couple of years ago. Prior to moving, we gave most of our furniture to our son and his family, who were moving into a larger home. So, at our new place, we had a lot of furnishing to do. I do some woodworking myself, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of what it takes to produce fine wood furniture. In our home, you'll find an $8,000 Amish-made bedroom suite in the master, and you will also find a guest bedroom I affectionately refer to as the "Ikea suite," furnished for about $600. I'm happy with both purchases and, to tell you the truth, the "Ikea suite" is perfectly functional, at least two years in. This doesn't mean we wouldn't like to have fine furniture throughout the house, but that will take some time - until we can afford it and/or I have time to make it.

Maybe it would be appropriate to turn the issue around, and ask how many of the folks who post here have tailor-made shirts or suits in their closets? Original oil paintings on their walls? The finest china and lead crystal in their kitchens?

[Martin Wasner]

I don't think God/Yahweh/Allah/Buddha/Zeus/Mother Gaia/Krishna/Peter Cottontail gave us any tools, he/she gave us the ability to imagine, design and make a whole host of tools.

Ever broken a stick over your knee?

[Bruce Page]

It’s simply manufacturing. Not everybody wants or can afford hand made. Nothing wrong with that.

[Rod Sheridan]

Is splitting fire wood with an axe woodworking?

Yes, of course it is.

So is making firewood with an automated firewood processor....Rod

[Cary Falk]

Where do you draw the line? It is using a tool. Unless you are smashing a rock against a tree this is no different then using a knife, shaper,tablesaw, lathe, router,etc to carve it. It takes skill to carve it with a knife. It takes a skill to program a machine to do it. They are skills. just different ones.

[Doug Garson]

Ever broken a stick over your knee?
Yes but you're going to have to explain the question to me. I have no idea what your point is.

[Pat Barry]

Of course its woodworking. Bizarre to try and retitle as something else.

[Donn Ward]

I just started building a desk for our home office. The first step was to put together the legs (3" square). In order to do this, I used the following: 1) chop saw 2) jointer 3) planer 4) table saw 5) drum sander and 6) Festool dominos, plus dust collector and shop air filter. I am pretty sure that most of these machines are standard in many of our shops and most of us wouldn't have a problem calling this "woodworking". That said, these power tools wouldn't have been that common in woodworking shops during the time my grandfather was living. Most of the work would have been accomplished with hand-tools Time marches on and innovation constantly brings change to existing technologies. Personally, I want to have "hand-on" engagement with my tools; I don't think I would enjoy simply pushing a button, but I do think it is "woodworking", but it isn't the kind I want to do.

[Martin Wasner]

Yes but you're going to have to explain the question to me. I have no idea what your point is.

Then you did woodworking with nothing but what the deities provided you with?

[Doug Garson]

Then you did woodworking with nothing but what the deities provided you with?
OK, but going back to your original post, we're all cheating because I don't know anyone who limits their woodworking to breaking sticks over their knee.

[Simon MacGowen]

Impressive - but - -I can bring myself to call this woodworking. - You meant you can't, right?

The video shows wood being worked on. Many handles or bats are turned on a lathe in a similar fashion. I consider CNC-woodworking woodworking, so what is depicted in the video is woodworking to me.

Simon

[Kevin Jenness]

"I always fall back on Pye's concept of The Workmanship of Risk to help evaluate if something is woodworking or manufacturing. By his definition, it isn't woodworking."

I don't believe David Pye (The Nature and Art of Workmanship) defined woodworking. He did define various sorts of work such as rough, free, regulated, good, bad, risky and certain. He valued the diversity achievable by the workmanship of risk and practiced it in his own woodwork , but he made his living as an architect and academic. I think he would have called the process in the video automated woodworking, an aspect of the workmanship of certainty, and the result not particularly interesting. He was at least as interested in the visual and tactile qualities of a piece of work as the tools used to make it. An interesting writer, perhaps the most sensible on the subject.

"The workmanship of risk has no exclusive prerogative of quality. What it has exclusively is an immensely various range of qualities, without which at its command the art of design becomes arid and impoverished."

"The danger is not that the workmanship of risk will die out altogether but rather that, from want of theory, and thence lack of standards, its possibilities will be neglected and inferior forms of it will be taken for granted and accepted."

Once programmed, a cnc machine can make infinite copies to close tolerances, but anyone using a cnc router for one-offs knows that the process has considerable elements of the workmanship of risk.

Some examples of David Pye's work:

https://www.google.com/search?q=david+pye+bowl&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS763US763&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnup356YLgAhVtnuAKHSiKCtAQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1680&bih=939

[Steve Demuth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFWX3EwnO14

Impressive - but - -I can bring myself to call this woodworking.

I don't know what to call it. I know it's not what I want to do in my shop. Others have different goals for their space and time and will reach a different conclusion.

[John Goodin]

This makes me wonder if similar topics were discussed when power tools were becoming popular. I can visualize an old timer arguing that “real craftsmen” work with their hands and don’t use electric tools like routers and sanders. Who knows, maybe one day CNC machines will be as ubiquitous as table saws today.

[Martin Wasner]

OK, but going back to your original post, we're all cheating because I don't know anyone who limits their woodworking to breaking sticks over their knee.

A tool is a tool. From a $8 chisel to the likely $400,000 specialized piece like the one in the video. There's zero difference.

What there is a difference in is what you want to experience. I do this for money. I enjoy making money way more than making cabinets. Watching my router do a job in less than a third of the time it took me to do it brings me great joy. To others it's cheating. Less sweat, less blood, less handling, less sore muscles. More accuracy, more consistency, more profitability.

It's still woodworking, chisel or cnc, but to say one is cheating over another is ridiculous. If that premise is incorrect, then a line needs to be drawn, I draw that line at any tool.

[Patrick Walsh]

See this is why I work for someone and don’t own a business.

I enjoy making the cabinet more than I enjoy money.

Way to much emphasis is put on money by us humans. It’s freaking infuriating that we can be so short sighted and simple minded to waste our lives away worrying for tomorrow while missing today chasing away the almighty dollar.

No way you will ever hear me call that Woodworking.

[Doug Garson]

A tool is a tool. From a $8 chisel to the likely $400,000 specialized piece like the one in the video. There's zero difference.

What there is a difference in is what you want to experience. I do this for money. I enjoy making money way more than making cabinets. Watching my router do a job in less than a third of the time it took me to do it brings me great joy. To others it's cheating. Less sweat, less blood, less handling, less sore muscles. More accuracy, more consistency, more profitability.

It's still woodworking, chisel or cnc, but to say one is cheating over another is ridiculous. If that premise is incorrect, then a line needs to be drawn, I draw that line at any tool.
Forgive me for being confused but wasn't your original post "Using anything other than the fleshy tools God/Yahweh/Allah/Buddha/Zeus/Mother Gaia/Krishna/Peter Cottontail gave you is cheating. If you think differently, you'd be incorrect." So, to be clear, you enjoy making money more than making cabinets and you consider using any tool is cheating?

[johnny means]

I would by all means consider that woodworking. Just as much as me pushing a board through a double sided planer or milling a mortise with a Domino machine. I think the keyword is "working". Seeing as how I do this for a living, I think that thing works. Maybe we need to stop calling it woodworking when its not a job. We could call it dallying.

I would definitely not consider that wood-dallying.

[Andrew Joiner]

I'd call it woodworking. It's definitely not dust collecting!

[Brian Holcombe]

I kind of agree. It's more like manufacturing with a wood based material. I cringe when I see videos like this showing big production outfits mass producing pieces that were once produced by the likes of Wegner and Møbler. But then, you could say the same of any mass produced piece of art or craft that starts from an original, be it print work, sculpture, ceramics, even textiles.

PP Mobler and likely all the rest of the Danes have similar equipment. They’re trying to compete and retain profits as much as anyone else. They keep the quality up and so I think it’s good for them to use whatever method is available to remain viable.

In the ‘golden era’ they had hydraulic copy lathes turning out the chair parts. In my opinion it is hardly different from cnc other than being more difficult to setup.

So the process has looked very similar for about 70 years now.

I differentiate myself from large scale manyfacturing or medium scale, but I still admire it in many ways. It’s interetihg to see how things are made in a production environment.

[Zac wingert]

Whatever it is called, you wouldn’t make something with that machine and give it to your family memeber/friend/neighbor as a gift for a special occasion and feel the same pride/sentimental value type feeling.

But you think if the woodworkers or craftsmen of 100 years ago had access to such technology, they would turn it down or use it??

[Martin Wasner]

See this is why I work for someone and don’t own a business.

I enjoy making the cabinet more than I enjoy money.

Way to much emphasis is put on money by us humans. It’s freaking infuriating that we can be so short sighted and simple minded to waste our lives away worrying for tomorrow while missing today chasing away the almighty dollar.

No way you will ever hear me call that Woodworking.

You're right, I should've phrased it differently. I've enjoyed building a business more than any cabinet I've built. Money just happens to be the fuel that feeds that business. You made way more than I did last year. I either reinvested, gave it to the employees, or gave it to the gov't.

See to you the challenge is cutting the wood. None of that is hard, it's just varying levels of pain with no consequences.

To me the challenge is keeping the wheels turning. That equation changes daily. Consequences ranging from oops to saying goodbye to 15 years of effort.

[Ben Zara]

It's woodworking but it's just not what I would want in my garage.

[Jacob Reverb]

Of course its woodworking. Bizarre to try and retitle as something else.

Words are bad! Ideas even worse!

[Jacob Reverb]

Maybe we should call it "machine-assisted execution of a drawing" ... which is exactly what almost all of us do in our shops.

Did the machine make the drawing, too? Did the machine program itself?

[Derek Cohen]

PP Mobler and likely all the rest of the Danes have similar equipment. They’re trying to compete and retain profits as much as anyone else. They keep the quality up and so I think it’s good for them to use whatever method is available to remain viable.

In the ‘golden era’ they had hydraulic copy lathes turning out the chair parts. In my opinion it is hardly different from cnc other than being more difficult to setup.

So the process has looked very similar for about 70 years now.

I differentiate myself from large scale manyfacturing or medium scale, but I still admire it in many ways. It’s interetihg to see how things are made in a production environment.

Brian, you may recall that I posted a video of copy lathes used to build Hand Wegner's "The Chair" ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5urbDBMLigs

The challenge was to then recreate the chair with hand tools. :)

I loved the irony of this ... that The Chair was probably made by Wegner in his shop with hand tools, and then machines were used to take the place of these .... and I recreated every joint as originally made with the machines with hand tools! :D

Mine's on the left, and the original is on the right ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/WeavingSeatCompletingTheChair_html_m1a3cedf0.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

When you see chairs closer in timeline to the prototype you certainly see the progression from handmade to machine in that they’re trying to build the chair to appear neatly made off the machinery. That joint at the back changed at least one time. As you know cutting that long finger joint at the back is not something Wegner likely did with hand tools, so they started with something that looked closer to a true finger joint.

[Derek Cohen]

Brian, it is interesting that they referred to the final joint as a "dovetail". As you can see below, it is a V joint and close to, as you called it, a finger joint. This is a simple joint when made by machines (depicted in the video I posted). By hand it was a nightmare (as the level of accuracy was huge - the quality of the saw cuts only becomes apparent when all is cut aware from it when the arms are shaped) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/WeavingSeatCompletingTheChair_html_m4441928f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ole Anderson]

Rather than waxing eloquent, did anybody else notice how heavy some of those initial cuts were? Sharp tooling there.

[Frederick Skelly]

It's an argument that has been,and will be, debated as long as there is wood working.
The first time a machine took over a function previously performed by hand some 100+ years ago, there was this same debate. Heck, the spindle moulder killed an entire discipline of wood working virtually over night. Same with the Jointer and Planer, or Thicknesses, for the rest of the world.
Do I considering it "wood working"? Maybe not. But boy I sure can appreciate all of the human minds that went into the machine design, firmware, software, etc. to arrive at that point.
I actually think that machine is rather slow. Three minutes to make a single leg? It's going to take twelve minutes to make four legs. Martin Wassner made a door in 16 minutes and he was walking and talking at the same time.
Is there any less "soul" to that leg, than an individual stile of a cabinet door I've made on my shaper? I don't think so, because in the end it's the design and functionality of the final assemblage that matters most.

Is it cheating that Jim Becker is using a CNC machine to cut out tack trunk parts? Not to me it isn't. The final design evolved and was developed in Jim's mind. The CNC machine is just one of the tools that brings that design to fruition. No more, no less.
It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves. There definitely won't be consensus on the question.

These are all great points Mike and I saved a copy for future reference. Thank you! I keep asking myself, why is my using machines to reduce labor "woodworking", but the CNC machine in the video isn't woodworking?

For me, the difference between "woodworking" (a Craft, in my mind) and "manufacturing wooden products" is how much of the work is done by the machine. The CNC shaped that table leg with no hands-on human guidance to the tool, after the setup was calibrated. 3D modelling and programming are Crafts too. But to me, downloading a model for a machine to build is closer to manufacturing than woodworking. (I admit there's a gray area here.)

The person who uses those legs to build a table might be a woodworker - especially if he/she buys them to incorporate into a table they are making through a combination of machine work and human action/brainpower. But it's also possible that he/she just screws 4 legs onto a mostly CNC-made tabletop with little thought required (or permitted). Personally, I would consider that "labor" (nothing wrong with that), not "woodworking". I guess I'm drawing on the definition that Bill Adams mentioned above: "A person who works with their hands is a labourer. A person who works with their hands and their mind is a craftsman (craftsperson)."

Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, it is interesting that they referred to the final joint as a "dovetail". As you can see below, it is a V joint and close to, as you called it, a finger joint. This is a simple joint when made by machines (depicted in the video I posted). By hand it was a nightmare (as the level of accuracy was huge - the quality of the saw cuts only becomes apparent when all is cut aware from it when the arms are shaped) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/WeavingSeatCompletingTheChair_html_m4441928f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

It could be the translation mixed up the terms, it’s practically the opposite of a dovetail. The important part is that it shapes well, I went through the same thing determining a joint for my chair, the joint needs to shape into the round well.

[Jim Becker]

I differentiate myself from large scale manyfacturing or medium scale, but I still admire it in many ways. It’s interetihg to see how things are made in a production environment.

What I admire about your work, Brian, is that you acknowledge and use machinery and even CNC to do those tasks where it makes sense while using your extensive knowledge and skilz with very sharp hand tools to add the finesse and finish that says "Brian" on each piece. That's craftsmanship all the way. And yes, scale does matter...those big name manufacturers absolutely need to use automation to be able to keep up with both demand and financial considerations. It doesn't take away from the final product in any way, IMHO.

[Jim Becker]

Derick, a very skilled man by the name of Russell Crawford just did some incredible 3D modeling in Aspire to be able to create a chair very similar to the Wegner on his CNC. He has mad skilz with the modeling and it's clearly permitted him to be able to offer a variety of chair designs that he can produce efficiently. And yes, there is still a lot of hand-work required because of the flowing nature of the joinery and finished contours but he has the time to be able to do that while his "big yellow shop assistant" is turning out the parts necessary for the next set.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, thanks for the name. I looked up Russell Crawford (http://www.cherryleaf-rustle.com/blog/2015/2/21/making-a-rocking-chair). He does impressive work. There is a "but".

His rocking chair is amazing when one realises that it is made in parts by machine ...

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d30896e4b04ea9b330e542/t/54e90a05e4b0a4a224716518/1424558848683/?format=750w (http://www.cherryleaf-rustle.com/blog/2015/2/21/making-a-rocking-chair)

However, when you put aside one from Sam Maloof, which is hand made ...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Sam_Maloof_rocker_1994.jpg

... there are differences that are not subtle at all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Yes, there are differences, but that may be both intentional and practical because of the method. "When" enters into things, too...as one gets more and more skilled with the modeling, things can get a lot more delicate. I assure you, if I designed a chair right now, it would likely resemble a stump with a board nailed to the back. LOL

[Art Mann]

The question is silly. There are hundreds of words in the English language that mean different things depending on the context. "Woodworking" is just one of them. If you want an accurate answer, you need to strictly define what you mean when you say the word. You are probably assuming that the word carries some connotation of individual craftsmanship but that isn't necessarily the case. Here is a similar example. You often hear people say they are "building" a new house. What they really mean is they are hiring someone else to build a house for them. I built two of the houses I have owned at least partly with my own hands and was the general contractor for the rest of the work. Should I correct them for their erroneous statement?

[Brian Holcombe]

What I admire about your work, Brian, is that you acknowledge and use machinery and even CNC to do those tasks where it makes sense while using your extensive knowledge and skilz with very sharp hand tools to add the finesse and finish that says "Brian" on each piece. That's craftsmanship all the way. And yes, scale does matter...those big name manufacturers absolutely need to use automation to be able to keep up with both demand and financial considerations. It doesn't take away from the final product in any way, IMHO.

Thank you, Jim! Much Appreciated!

[Kevin Beitz]

Do I consider it woodworking... Yes... Would I have pride in my work...Yes...

Why?

Because I build machines to do this. I made an CNC mill and the latest I
built was an Sawmill mounted wood lathe to cut octagon porch post.

Next project is an 12 ft X 8 ft overhead machine controlled router head...

[Patrick Walsh]

Martin in saying what I said I meant no disrespect for anyone whom feels different. We all march to the beat of the drum that suits us best. Well if we are lucky.

I have the utmost respect for the small businesses man and exact.y what it is he does. Having been a tradesman of varying sorts for 25 years now I have had mucho exposure to small business.

I have at time even ventured intomth3 small business realm myself. Most cases it was out of nesesity. On a couple occasions even ending up with 2-3 employees for 1-2myears at a time. It’s hard really really hard and I’m suited to it as I am just putting my head down and getting work done. The kinda work required to run a business is not enjoyable to me and you know I just never succeed at anything I’m not enjoying. I would love to be a good business man as I generally don’t like people enough to want to have to deal with them anymore than I have to. I fake it really well but it’s imenisly painful for me and just not worth it long term, or short for that matter.

My hats off to you as 15 years is a long time to hold it togehter as a small business in the residential market. I have seen so many business come and go over my 25 years. I’m always more than appreciative for a employer that takes being accountable and responsible to his employees serious as so many could give a rats asss.

Anyway I’d be the first one to imcorperate a cnc if my ass was on the line or my livelihood. I just would not considering the same Woodworking as what I do now. I’ll say this though, I don’t consider what I do at work anyway the same level/quality or whatever as the work I do on my own time. I can’t compare building custom cabinets with pocket screws, glue, clamps and mucho machinery in any way or form to whatsay a Brian Halcombe or Derek do. Comparing any of them probably is not fair in all reality.

It’s like I said around the holiday. We all have one very big thing in common, we all enjoy making things, regardless of what those things are or how we make them or with what we all clearly have some kind of passion that drives us and that’s pretty cool. I know sommay people that live with zero passion. That imop is not very cool.


You're right, I should've phrased it differently. I've enjoyed building a business more than any cabinet I've built. Money just happens to be the fuel that feeds that business. You made way more than I did last year. I either reinvested, gave it to the employees, or gave it to the gov't.

See to you the challenge is cutting the wood. None of that is hard, it's just varying levels of pain with no consequences.

To me the challenge is keeping the wheels turning. That equation changes daily. Consequences ranging from oops to saying goodbye to 15 years of effort.

[Chris Fournier]

Yeah, pretty clear that this is woodworking as they are machining wood! Does their vocation relate to your avocation? Well there's the wood...

[Rich Engelhardt]

Lots of excellent answers here....

I'm still not ready to call that woodworking though. ;) .

Personally,,,,,that part being made is something I'd just buy - instead of try to make it myself - with or without the fancy machine.

[Lee Schierer]

Yes it is definitely wood working. The tools are just different than what you are used to. That machine is really no different than some woodworkers thoughts when the the first router was introduced in 1915 or when the table saw replaced the hand saw in many shops. You could still hold the distinction that the part was not hand made, but it is definitely made of wood.

[Randy Heinemann]

It wouldn't be satisfying woodworking to me because the reason I am a woodworker is to work with, touch, mold, and personally create a finished product, but I am not required to make money from my finished products. If I were a woodworking business whose survival meant making a profit I would make furniture using the most efficient method I could find. Having said all of that, I do use tools like the Festool Domino to improve my mortise and tenon joints and to help me be more creative with integrating those joints into my projects. I have no need to mass produce any project I have ever made, so no real need for even a CNC machine; just tools which help me be more accurate, precise, and produce somewhat better quality with my hands, mind, and body.

[Jim Riseborough]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFWX3EwnO14

Impressive - but - -I can bring myself to call this woodworking.

Look at it through machinist eyes, its either manual with tools, or its automated with CNC. Still Machining. Either way this is woodworking, the activity or skill of making things from wood. Its just really automated.

[Pat Barry]

Lots of excellent answers here....

I'm still not ready to call that woodworking though. ;) .

Personally,,,,,that part being made is something I'd just buy - instead of try to make it myself - with or without the fancy machine.

You might be able to buy it from the woodworking shop that produced the video.

[Mark Gibney]

The 30 seconds of music typically played between radio segments nowadays starts out sounding like music, but it quickly annoys me and I often turn the station - it's made by some kid on a computer, using musical snippets and ideas from jazz, folk, classical and so no, but instead of growing and having human variation, the music replicates itself like photocopies scotch taped together.

This leg milling is impressive to watch. The table it becomes part of may be attractive. And the market might require this level of automation. But I won't be inspired and delighted by this the way I can be by someone working more directly with wood, either with hand or electric tools.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Welcome to the digital age. Scroll sawing is fast going the way of the dodo. CNC router carvings are making magnificent works in one hundredth of the time for hand crafted. The time is coming that programmers will be artists. I saw it 30 years ago with computerized post and beam construction. Giant CNC routers cut the tennons and mortises and were accurrate to a hundredth of an inch.

[Mark Maleski]

I call it a poorly designed leg. Notice how the curve flattens into a straight section at the top of the leg...why would they leave it like that? Or the sharp corners; why weren’t those addressed? It’s not due to a limitation of the machine, obviously. I believe it’s because so much of the classical design sensibilities have been lost due to when machine manufacturing (among other factors).

[Paul Bent]

Designing and building the machinery to do that was immensely satisfying to someone, I would bet.

[Marshall Harrison]

I'm not sure what that spinning thing is but it sure ate the wood with a minimum of effort.

It was mass produced furniture in factories that lead to the Craftsman Movement in the late 19th century. But while we may not consider this woodworking, most consumers don't care and have no idea how their furniture is made.

[Brian Holcombe]

Craftsman furniture is pretty mass produced, IMO.

They did a better job at coordinating design and production than Victorian age furniture which looks often enough like a grab-bag of styles.