Software on eBay

[Mike Henderson]

I had Office 2010 on my computer but I understand that Microsoft is going to discontinue support for 2010. I found Office 2019 on eBay for a significant discount. So I contacted the seller and we agreed to have a telephone conversation. I asked him how he can sell Office 2019 for that much of a discount. His answer was that he buys the software inventory of failing businesses for pennies on the dollar and then he turns around, sells it at a significant discount and still makes a decent profit. He commented that you'd be amazed at how much of that distressed software is out there. He added that he has a variety of software products that he gets in those sales.

He pointed out that Microsoft has gotten their money for the software so Microsoft is not being cheated. The loser is the business owner of the failed business.

So I decided to take a chance and I bought the product from him. It installed fine and I activated it without any problems. Microsoft recognized the Product Key as legal and as a standard retail key.

Anyone have any alternate insights or opinions about such software and purchases?

Mike

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Since software are licensed products, each license can be used only used in the manner specified in the license -- usually only one computer/one user at a time for personal products with some provision for transfer (e.g., hardware failure). Generally, as long as you are the only one using this license then it should be fine... but the words in license agreements can only be decoded by a team of trained lawyers. ;-) You might want to read about the complicated nature of software licensing in brief on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license) (which may, or may not be accurate as we all know!)

[Jim Becker]

Part of the licensing language may include transferability. I "don't think" that Microsoft is too peculiar about that, but many software concerns are with things ranging from "no transferability under any circumstances" through "you can transfer for a hefty fee" to "no restrictions as long as it's only running in one place on one computer. (Some licenses permit more than one computer as long as it's the same user, such as for a desktop plus a laptop)

Yathin is correct that software licensing can be a very intricate and complicated thing!

[Mike Henderson]

If the guy was telling me the truth, the software was never sold or used previously. But I think as far as Microsoft is concerned, I bought it from a non-Microsoft authorized retailer. That may or may not affect their willingness to support it. Although how Microsoft would know where I bought it, I don't know.

I would think that if it had been installed previously, I would have received an error message when I activated it with Microsoft.

In any case, it was a significant savings from the regular retail price.

Mike

P.S. When I Google "Microsoft Office Professional Plus 2019" I see a lot of different prices.

[Jim Becker]

I suspect that most sales of Office these days goes as Office 365 subscriptions, rather than the boxed/retail perpetual licenses. I went that way a few years ago myself...it's always up to date and licensed on up to five machines (which was originally the case for me) plus mobiles if desired. I honestly suspect that the perpetual licensing will not continue much longer for new versions, if at all. That's the industry trend. That said, if yours came from unsold inventory, it sounds like it was a great deal!

[Mike Henderson]

I looked at Office 365. For multiple (6) computers its $100/year. I had my Office 2010 for about 10 years and never felt that I was missing anything - probably because I don't use it heavily.

So for Office 365 for 10 years, it's $1,000. For Office Professional Plus 2019 for two computers (two product keys) it was a bit under $100 from the eBay guy. If I keep 2019 for ten years, that's a significant savings.

I won't get any feature updates, like you will with Office 365, but I will get maintenance updates until they discontinue the product. If they drop all one-time license products, I guess I'll go to Office 365, Open Office or Libreoffice. But I'm probably good for the next ten years. At my age, that may be longer than what I have left:).

Mike

[Dan Friedrichs]

Interesting explanation for the discount. I suppose it makes sense...

I've heard that, at least at one point, Microsoft had a program where they'd sell discounted copies of Windows to be installed on refurbished machines, but people would re-sell them. Not sure how legal/allowed that was, but you could get a "legit" copy of Windows for quite cheap.

[Simon MacGowen]

I have saved from buying software programs including FW archive, and as long as they are original with valid activation codes, I don't ask or care how they can sell them at discounted prices. After all, they can tell you reasons ( "I bought it, but did not realize my wife was giving me the same as a gift") that you can't verify one way or another.

I see no benefits from getting updates as I am a basic user, and my requirements haven't changed all these years...still typing my essays on Word program that is at least 15 years old!

Simon

[Curt Harms]

Subscription pricing might well make sense for Enterprises because it saves on in-house maintenance. For individual/home use I'm not sure the economics make sense. More than a few people are using older versions of Office with no issues. There are non-Microsoft alternatives that from all indications are quite compatible. Probably not suitable for CFO/Controller types or those that need 3rd party Excel add-ons but for the great unwashed they work well. I use Libre Office and am able to exchange basic Work & Excel files with no issues. I do have (legal) Microsoft fonts installed which I think helps with formatting.

[Mike Henderson]

Subscription pricing might well make sense for Enterprises because it saves on in-house maintenance. For individual/home use I'm not sure the economics make sense. More than a few people are using older versions of Office with no issues. There are non-Microsoft alternatives that from all indications are quite compatible. Probably not suitable for CFO/Controller types or those that need 3rd party Excel add-ons but for the great unwashed they work well. I use Libre Office and am able to exchange basic Work & Excel files with no issues. I do have (legal) Microsoft fonts installed which I think helps with formatting.

My opinion is that subscription software is really a benefit to the manufacturer - it provides them a stream of cash that they can depend upon. When you sell a software product you can get a lot of sales (and cash) in the year you release it and then a lot less in the subsequent years. It also puts pressure on the company to keep coming out with new releases to perk up their cash flow.

Many software products, such as Office (Word, Excel, Outlook), are "good enough" as is and people are willing to stick with an older version because it does the job for them. The only thing that forces people to upgrade is when support is discontinued, or the old version won't work on a new computer.

That's a common problem for hardware, also. People keep computers longer because what they have is "good enough". Smartphones are just reaching that point. An iPhone 6, for example, may be "good enough" for a lot of people who don't want to spend $1,000 on a new iPhone. The only thing that will force those iPhone 6 people to purchase a new phone is when support is discontinued for it - and maybe not even then.

Maybe we'll see subscription hardware some day:)

Mike

[Kev Williams]

Microsoft does allow for selling old Windows from busted computers, they just want the seller to include something from the original computer to the new user. I recently bought 2 copies of Win7 32 pro for $20, the 'original computer part' I got was the original activation code labels. There's a phone-in activation procedure, my copies passed.

Last year I found a guy on 'not-ebay' (another bidding site, forget the name) where I got TurboTax Biz and Home & biz for dirt cheap. Got this years Biz version cheaper than last years, no problems. Still waiting on H&B to become available...

I rarely if ever pay full price for software. I'm still using Office 2003, and the only reason I'm not still using Office '97 (which works fine for my needs) is because of the added 's' to the filename extensions. The only subscription EVER that I did was 3 months ago, I got a year's worth of Adobe PDF. Worst money I ever spent- I got it to help with a compatibility issue from my customer's PDFs; not only did it not help with the issue, it won't run for more than 5 minutes before it hangs and crashes. Done with that nonsense, and now I'm using Foxit, a freebie that works great...

[Brian Elfert]

I don't think lack of support from Microsoft is a reason to abandon Office 2010 as long as it works for you.

There has got to be something fishy about all the places selling Office 2019 pro plus for under $100. Microsoft and Amazon sell it for $439.99. I doubt the guy really got his Office 2019 licenses from places going out of business, especially since Office 2019 was released less than four months ago. He probably gets his licenses from the same place as all the others selling Office for cheap.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't think lack of support from Microsoft is a reason to abandon Office 2010 as long as it works for you.

There has got to be something fishy about all the places selling Office 2019 pro plus for under $100. Microsoft and Amazon sell it for $439.99. I doubt the guy really got his Office 2019 licenses from places going out of business, especially since Office 2019 was released less than four months ago. He probably gets his licenses from the same place as all the others selling Office for cheap.

Where do people get those product keys that they sell for cheap? Microsoft activates the software with the product key so it must be a Microsoft generated product key. I'm sure that Microsoft has a database of the product keys they generate and they check that database when you activate your software.

Do you think they're stolen from somewhere or hacked from some computer system? If so, you'd think that Microsoft would be chasing these guys for theft.

I'm serious about the question and that's why I posted here - to see if anyone had any insight.

Mike

P.S. to give a full account, I actually purchased product keys to Office Professional 2016. But for some reason I couldn't get it to work on my computer. The guy worked with me and did a remote connection to see that I was not doing anything wrong. When he couldn't fix it, he said he'd give me two product keys for Office Professional 2019 that he had purchased as a bulk purchase for the same price as the 2016 keys. He claimed to be a Microsoft certified person and did support for companies as his day job.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

Do you think they're stolen from somewhere or hacked from some computer system? If so, you'd think that Microsoft would be chasing these guys for theft.


It could also be a genuine key intended for school/student use which is generally free. If the seller's story is true then could be a part of a volume discount and almost certainly not a transferrable license (even if it activates). They could also be using some gray area / loophole at best. They will eventually go after these guys but they may come after people using the software too if their lawyers have fished out all the big fish.

Also, activation keys are not necessarily stored in a database. In many cases activation keys are just keys in a cryptographic sense at unlock the software features. So, even though it was activated via the Internet, Microsoft is probably not checking it against a database, but they do have all your information through your Internet Service Provider.

I'd call Microsoft and ask about this, and if this isn't all fine you'd probably still be able to get a refund from eBay.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

The guy worked with me and did a remote connection to see that I was not doing anything wrong. When he couldn't fix it, he said he'd give me two product keys for Office Professional 2019 that he had purchased as a bulk purchase for the same price as the 2016 keys. He claimed to be a Microsoft certified person and did support for companies as his day job.

Whoa! Red flag.

Honestly, I would wipe my computer if someone did that. People can claim a lot of things over the Internet and even give you real names but that doesn't mean they are who they say they are.

[Mike Henderson]

Whoa! Red flag.

Honestly, I would wipe my computer if someone did that. People can claim a lot of things over the Internet and even give you real names but that doesn't mean they are who they say they are.

I'm computer savvy enough to be able to see what he was doing. I have absolutely no concern that he did anything nefarious to my computer.

I downloaded the Office software from the Microsoft web site so there was no chance of having some bad stuff embedded in the software. And I did that before we did the remote connection. All he wanted to see was the problem I was having, rather than just hear my description.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

It could also be a genuine key intended for school/student use which is generally free. If the seller's story is true then could be a part of a volume discount and almost certainly not a transferrable license (even if it activates). They could also be using some gray area / loophole at best. They will eventually go after these guys but they may come after people using the software too if their lawyers have fished out all the big fish.

Also, activation keys are not necessarily stored in a database. In many cases activation keys are just keys in a cryptographic sense at unlock the software features. So, even though it was activated via the Internet, Microsoft is probably not checking it against a database, but they do have all your information through your Internet Service Provider.

I'd call Microsoft and ask about this, and if this isn't all fine you'd probably still be able to get a refund from eBay.

I was logged in with my Microsoft account when I activated so they have good knowledge of who I am. When I had problems activating 2016, I got a message that I could use the software for 30 days and then it would stop working.

After I got everything working, I had a problem and called Microsoft about it. The tech did a remote control and checked my software to see that it was activated and it was. So Microsoft passed it as okay. They wouldn't have provided support if it was not activated and legal and he told me that.

Also, Microsoft makes the software available to students for a reduced rate - not free - and you have to show an email account at a school to activate it. There are other ways to get it activated, such as if you're home schooling, but it takes some jumping through hoops.

Microsoft can tell the difference between a retail package and what I think they call a MSI package (a corporate volume sale) and it shows in the activation. Mine was definitely a retail product key.

Mike

And let me add one additional comment. When you install the software, you are asked for your product key as part of the installation. The software checks the key to see that it is a Microsoft generated key (I suppose it's "self checking", that is, there are characters in the key that are dependant on the rest of the key). If you get by that hurdle, when you use the software for the first time, you have to "activate" and the software sends your product key to Microsoft and Microsoft can tell if that key has been used before. So they definitely have a database of the product keys. If the product key has been used before (although you're allowed a small number of uses so you can re-install if you get new hardware) you will be denied activation.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Since I started reading this thread, I have gone onto Ebay to look for Office 2019. The price of product keys starts at less than $3! I contracted a seller listing for $20 since his ad suggested that he was actually selling the software. He replied saying that he is selling the product key and he would supply a link to the Microsoft page where the downloadable file is.
I find it somewhat unbelievable to think that these keys are legitimate. This is very new software. Surely there are not a whole lot of retailers out there who bought this stuff and have done out of business already.
However, I called Microsoft and asked about these sellers. The MS lady told me that it is likely that the keys are legitimate. She said that once I get the key I was to log into my MS account and add the key to my account. She said that MS would then generate the key needed upon installation.
I have done this yet so I can't comment on my success or failure.

[Mike Henderson]

Since I started reading this thread, I have gone onto Ebay to look for Office 2019. The price of product keys starts at less than $3! I contracted a seller listing for $20 since his ad suggested that he was actually selling the software. He replied saying that he is selling the product key and he would supply a link to the Microsoft page where the downloadable file is.
I find it somewhat unbelievable to think that these keys are legitimate. This is very new software. Surely there are not a whole lot of retailers out there who bought this stuff and have done out of business already.
However, I called Microsoft and asked about these sellers. The MS lady told me that it is likely that the keys are legitimate. She said that once I get the key I was to log into my MS account and add the key to my account. She said that MS would then generate the key needed upon installation.
I have done this yet so I can't comment on my success or failure.

Since Microsoft will activate the software, I suppose the keys are legitimate. My question is where do the sellers get the keys? They sell them for such a low price that they have to get them very cheap or they're stolen. Anyone have any insight?

Mike

[Derek Meyer]

A lot of the keys come from what is known as "gray market", which were originally sold by Microsoft to a large manufacturer, like HP or Dell. The big guys get their licenses at a huge discount over what consumers or small businesses do, due to the sheer volume they buy. The caveat is that the licenses are termed OEM licenses by Microsoft, meaning that the OEM (system builder) is responsible for any tech support.

Usually, computers from the big guys come with the software already installed and activated. They include discs (sometimes) and license keys for this software with the purchase, but the initial activation is done with a bulk key, which is not the key they send with the discs. Thus, you can use your computer for years and never need the key they sent you. If you have to reinstall or reactivate the software for any reason, you'll need that key.

Microsoft does track activations for their product keys to ensure that you don't use one key to activate multiple copies of a product, but if you wait long enough (like 9 months to a year) you can use the same key again. I've done this with Windows 7 keys from laptop computers, and though it's not allowed under the terms of the license agreement, it will work.

One limitation to OEM products is that, when they are activated, they are tied to that device for life and may not be transferred to another machine (this is a limitation imposed by the license terms). This is one area where an Office 365 subscription is beneficial - you can move Office installs between machines as often as you want.

When I worked at a local computer store we purchased some cheap Office copies from a seller on Amazon, and what we got was a cardboard sleeve with an Office disc and a product key on the back, exactly like the ones that Dell and HP ship with their new computers. Where the seller obtained these copies is anyone's guess.

[Curt Harms]

My opinion is that subscription software is really a benefit to the manufacturer - it provides them a stream of cash that they can depend upon. When you sell a software product you can get a lot of sales (and cash) in the year you release it and then a lot less in the subsequent years. It also puts pressure on the company to keep coming out with new releases to perk up their cash flow.


Mike

I'd read some time ago that Microsoft has been trying to become like a utility - get paid every so often forever. It looks like they've partially succeeded. There's speculation that in the future Windows on new machines will be free for a certain period of time but if you want support & updates beyond that time you'll need some sort of subscription.

As far as hardware, how difficult would it be to design one or more components that become increasingly unreliable over time? If all manufacturers went along with the program, it'd probably work. Or only support firmware e.g. UEFI for so long. If can't-live-without-it software required recent vintage firmware to work, that would limit useful life of hardware.

[Mike Henderson]

A lot of the keys come from what is known as "gray market", which were originally sold by Microsoft to a large manufacturer, like HP or Dell. The big guys get their licenses at a huge discount over what consumers or small businesses do, due to the sheer volume they buy. The caveat is that the licenses are termed OEM licenses by Microsoft, meaning that the OEM (system builder) is responsible for any tech support.

Usually, computers from the big guys come with the software already installed and activated. They include discs (sometimes) and license keys for this software with the purchase, but the initial activation is done with a bulk key, which is not the key they send with the discs. Thus, you can use your computer for years and never need the key they sent you. If you have to reinstall or reactivate the software for any reason, you'll need that key.

Microsoft does track activations for their product keys to ensure that you don't use one key to activate multiple copies of a product, but if you wait long enough (like 9 months to a year) you can use the same key again. I've done this with Windows 7 keys from laptop computers, and though it's not allowed under the terms of the license agreement, it will work.

One limitation to OEM products is that, when they are activated, they are tied to that device for life and may not be transferred to another machine (this is a limitation imposed by the license terms). This is one area where an Office 365 subscription is beneficial - you can move Office installs between machines as often as you want.

When I worked at a local computer store we purchased some cheap Office copies from a seller on Amazon, and what we got was a cardboard sleeve with an Office disc and a product key on the back, exactly like the ones that Dell and HP ship with their new computers. Where the seller obtained these copies is anyone's guess.

I think we have the answer here in Derek's post. I've continued to work this issue - here's what I've done and discovered.

I searched for "How to add Office product key to my microsoft account" and came up with www.office.com/setup (http://www.office.com/setup)

On that page, you log on with your Microsoft account and then enter the product key for your Office. The product keys that I got on eBay were not accepted, even though I had been able to activate the software. In other words, I could not add those keys to my Microsoft account.

So I went back to eBay and found a seller who said his product could be added to your Microsoft account. His was more expensive but still quite a bit less than retail.

I ordered a copy and, sure enough, I could add that one to my Microsoft account. So I now have a copy that I can move to other computers when I need to.

So I think the keys I got originally were OEM keys and would only work on one computer (could not be transferred to a new computer).

So if you can live without the ability to put the product on a new computer, those OEM keys will work for you. If you want the security of being able to move the software to a new computer, look for a supplier who can provide a key that can be added to your Microsoft account.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

Why not try this free software?

https://www.openoffice.org/download/

I have it on my computer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apache_Software_Foundation

[Kevin Beitz]

I agree with the above. Open Office. You can get a CD off E-bay for $6.00.
Works great. Never runs out.

[Greg R Bradley]

I wouldn't have worried about MS discontinuing support. I still have dozens of people using Office 2003 and a fair amount that have added on Project 2000.
Did you logon to office.com/setup to create an account or logon to your MS account? Did you install from MS?
OR, did they send you a download link that downloaded an entire .iso file? If so that is someone that bought a MS site license and is illegally selling as many as possible until MS figures it out and disables the key. In other words, you may activate it now but when you need to restup the computer it will fail.

[Mike Henderson]

I wouldn't have worried about MS discontinuing support. I still have dozens of people using Office 2003 and a fair amount that have added on Project 2000.
Did you logon to office.com/setup to create an account or logon to your MS account? Did you install from MS?
OR, did they send you a download link that downloaded an entire .iso file? If so that is someone that bought a MS site license and is illegally selling as many as possible until MS figures it out and disables the key. In other words, you may activate it now but when you need to restup the computer it will fail.

I went to office.com/setup, logged on to my Microsoft account, and entered the product key. Microsoft accepted the key and told me it was added to my MS account. Then I installed from my Microsoft account under "services and subscriptions". This is for the product key that I bought that was advertised as "add to your Microsoft account".

For the earlier product keys, I downloaded an iso, installed and entered the product key during the install and then activated when I first brought up the software.

I have two computers and bought an "add to your Microsoft account" key for each of them. Both added to my MS account and activated (and installed) fine.

Read post #22 (by me) for more details.

Mike