Planning a new island. Opinions?

[Chad Visker]

I'm fairly new to woodworking, and in the planning stages for a new kitchen island. I know standard height is 36", but the wife is wanting it a little taller. We are both average height at about 5'9". Has anyone else done this? What would you suggest? 37"? 38"?

Our house is a normal to small sized ranch style. Storage is always at a premium. So I am also considering doing frameless cabinets for the island, and having all drawers and no doors. Easier to access stuff and figure with frameless, that will leave me with more available storage space. Every little bit counts. Any opinions or thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance to anyone that will provide their opinion.

[Bill Orbine]

Deviating from the standard is very common. You can do a mock up to find your suitable height for your kitchen island. You can also do the mock up in length and width to see how this fits in your surroundings in the room, such as other cabinets, appliances and furniture.

[Mike Cutler]

Chad
I'm 6'3" and my wife is 5'6". When we built our kitchen we put the cabinets at 37". Me personally, I would have had them over 40", but 37" is a good compromise.
Your wife, at 5'9" is a little taller than average for a women.
Bil has a very good point about making a mockup. We did our kitchen with mockups just to be sure. In fact, I'm still working on it.:o
You won't regret doing drawers, instead of cabinets, on the lowers for a single minute. Our kitchen is full length pull out drawers on the lowers. It is so nice not have to bend over and crawl on the floor to find something in the back. I will never have a kitchen with cabinets on the lowers again, except for the sinks.;)
Oh yeah, the intent for the area under our oven is for cabinet doors, but full extension slide outs for pots and pans. Not shelves!!!

[Lisa Starr]

I'll second the opinion that you'll want to do all drawers. I built our entire kitchen, and except for the cabinet under the induction cooktop, everything is drawers. We have no upper cabinets and find that even our dinnerware works great in drawers. You will save time and money with frameless, but need to consider how you will finish the edges of the sheet material you choose to use.

[Nick Lazz]

I’m not a big fan of frameless cabinets. When I first started building cabinets I too leaned towards the frameless style due to ease but face frames are not that difficult, if you build your carcass square and what not. FF will break up the drawers a little. If you’re sold on frameless, it’s not a bad way to go, but as Lisa said, you’ll need to figure out how to trim out the edges. I’ve used iron on veneer and it has worked out fine but again, not my favorite method of trimming out a cabinet.,,especially in a kitchen.
Height sounds good on paper but once you have something built it will feel a lot taller than holding a tape measure up to a certain height. A mock up as suggested is a good idea. Even a couple inches will go a long way and feel much taller.

[Gary Ragatz]

I'll cast another vote for a mock-up. I'm 6'1" and do most of the cooking in our household. We have a 36" high island where I do most of the food prep - slicing, chopping, mixing, etc. - and 36" is just right for me. I set my cutting board up on a couple inches of stacked up newspapers to make it 38", and it's a manageable height, but not as comfortable as 36" - especially if I'm cutting something where I need some leverage.

I know I'm out of step with the times, but I'm not a fan of drawer stacks in the kitchen. We had a stack in our old home, and it just seemed like they got too cluttered and I could never find what I was looking for. In our new place, all the lower cabinets are a single drawer with doors below. We do have the slide-out shelves that Mike mentioned earlier, and I think they're great - pots, pans, mixing bowls, serving dishes, all those plastic leftover containers all go on the sliding shelves, and I can pull them out and find exactly what I'm looking for.

[Martin Wasner]

I've got a very narrow view because I'm used to standard. I've built a handful of kitchens with 38" counters. It's weird to me, but I'm brainwashed.

Things to keep in mind

Appliances are that sit on the floor like ranges and dishwashers are meant to fit a standard height cabinet. This can be negated with a cooktop and a wall oven. The dishwasher opening can be filled with a little filler over the top, or raised up.

You will want to raise your wall cabinets to maintain a 18" or better clearance under them to the countertop. Counter appliances are made to slide under your wall cabinet.

There's nothing saying you can't make them to whatever height you want.

[Martin Wasner]

Most of my kitchens have very few doors in base cabinets as well. Drawers are a better use of space

[John Goodin]

The simple base cabinet generally has a lot of wasted space that could be better utilized other ways. Drawers are more complicated but an excellent use of space, great for taller people and those who have issues bending. There are other features such as pull outs that are helpful too. Look at the Kraftmaid website. They have a huge selection of upgrades that can give you ideas about making better use of the space you have. There is a lot out there.

One of the the nicer features in a home I have seen is a raised dishwasher. The counter above the dishwasher was 42” and transitioned into the bar area for a seamless look. This provided a nice elevated work space but also required much less bending to load and unload the dishwasher. I will look for a picture later to post.

i would be careful about making you cabinets too tall if selling your home is in the near future. The taller cabinets may turn off some potential buyers.

[John Goodin]

Here is an image of an elevated dishwasher. You may not have your on the island but maybe it will stimulate and idea

400982

[Jim Becker]

All drawers for sure...and height is a personal preference. Given that many of us use our kitchen islands extensively for prep work, having the best height for our comfort should be the goal. There's no requirement that it matches the fixed counters in the rest of the kitchen which are likely at some "standard" height that the home builder or kitchen firm preferred to use at the time of installation unless you were personally involved in the design and specified otherwise.

[John Gornall]

At the far end of the island as you enter the kitchen my wife's idea was to have book shelves for the cook books. Don't see them unless you walk down to that end of the island.

An idea I had was with the depth of fridges I made the counters on that side 30 inches deep so fridge doesn't stick out - drawers in lower are deep and uppers are 18 inches deep. Found this extra depth good as some things just need a little more space

[Jim Becker]

John, my current island has shelves at the end. While they are functional for holding things, they have proven to be a real pain to keep clean....you know, an "out of sight, out of mind" type thing.

[Mike Cutler]

I'll second the opinion that you'll want to do all drawers. I built our entire kitchen, and except for the cabinet under the induction cooktop, everything is drawers. We have no upper cabinets and find that even our dinnerware works great in drawers. You will save time and money with frameless, but need to consider how you will finish the edges of the sheet material you choose to use.

Lisa
Would you mind posting of photo of how you built the inside of your drawer for plates? I want to modify one of our big drawers to hold plates, whether stacked, or set on edge. Stacked doesn't seem to be the best way to do it.
The drawer is 36" wide, 14" tall, and 22" deep. It has two Gras, bottom mount, full extension slides that are rated 250lbs for the pair. It was built for storing dinnerware.
Thank you
Mike

[James Pallas]

A lot would depend on what type of prep will be done. If a lot of baking is done(rolling pin work) a 36 may be better. Remember you can raise the work surface with a thick cutting board. No easy way to lower it. People in general are use to a 36" height. If others help in your kitchen at times, parents, kids, etc higher tops tend to cause spills. It's like stairs that are too high or too low, the riser I'm referring to on stairs. I'm a firm believer in keeping it at 36" and raising as needed with cutting boards or stands.
Jim

[Steve Jenkins]

I'll second the opinion that you'll want to do all drawers. I built our entire kitchen, and except for the cabinet under the induction cooktop, everything is drawers. We have no upper cabinets and find that even our dinnerware works great in drawers. You will save time and money with frameless, but need to consider how you will finish the edges of the sheet material you choose to use.

We also did all drawers except under the sink and cooktop. Under the cooktop we mounted a shower rod and used s hooks to hang all the pans that have a single handle . Below the wall oven we made a large drawer with dividers for cutting boards, cookie sheets etc. I made the drawer front look like a pair of doors since it was so big

[James Pallas]

Here is an image of an elevated dishwasher. You may not have your on the island but maybe it will stimulate and idea

400982

That kitchen may be set up as an Accessibility kitchen. The counter tops would be at thirty two and actually raised to accommodate the dishwasher. It also allows the upper cabinets to be 4" lower so easier to reach from a wheelchair.
Jim

[fRED mCnEILL]

We have drawers in the toe kick and one of them is an"upside down" drawer that you can stand on to give some extra elevation for baking, rolling pin stuff. To support the drawer I put plastic runners on the bottom.

[Chad Visker]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts and opinions. They are all great. As far as finishing, they will be painted white. Was originally thinking the iron on edging for the front edges of the plywood, but perhaps wood filler, followed by paint?

[Myk Rian]

Ours is 36.25" tall. It works great for everyone during gatherings.
We put the dishwasher in the island. It has worked out very well.

[Tim Bueler]

We have 2 islands. One is all drawers and pullout shelves. Honestly I don't know why anyone would want to get down on their knees to dig through a cabinet when there is so much great hardware to make accessing lower cabinets easy and efficient. This island is 36", LOML has a cutting board on top which raises her cutting surface to 38". She is 5' 3" (and does all the cooking).

The other "island" is a reclaimed meat cutters block. 30" x 30" x 30" high. She uses this to roll out pastry and/or pizza dough. She also has her Kitchen-Aid mixer here, makes it easier for her to see in the bowl (like when she adds chocolate chips to cookie dough :)).

Countertop height is/should be a function of the intended use. Nothing wrong with having varied counter heights. Many years ago I built a kitchen for a little Filipino lady and her mother. Countertops were 33" (appliances were a !@#$%). EXCEPT, the dishwasher was raised 6" or 8" so they didn't have to bend over to load/unload. Can't remember how tall she was but I don't think she'd make 5' if she stood on tip-toes.

[Martin Wasner]

I don't understand pull outs.

Why open a door to open a drawer?

[Patrick Walsh]

I think that might be a very common belief amongst us cabinet makers.

I have yet to meet one that understood the point. As it is a bank of drawers even looks better.

Ok maybe in a pantry I get pullouts. Beyond that not so much.

As for height, the only way I would ever deviate from the 36” is when field conditions force it.


I don't understand pull outs.

Why open a door to open a drawer?

[Martin Wasner]

Ok maybe in a pantry I get pullouts. Beyond that not so much.

I agree, but to me a pantry should only be about 14" deep anyways.

I just hate pull outs. We do them a really stupid and really time consuming way. My fault, but I don't charge enough.

[Darcy Warner]

Saw horses, solid core door and totes. Bam, island done in 15 minutes.

[Chad Visker]

I don't either. Too much wasted space. that's why I'll be doing all drawers instead of doors with pull-outs.



I don't understand pull outs.

Why open a door to open a drawer?

[Patrick Walsh]

Oh yeah please explain.

What do you do box in a box?

We just do maple stand off blocks hit with cv..

It’s a crap look imop but it’s what we do.


I agree, but to me a pantry should only be about 14" deep anyways.

I just hate pull outs. We do them a really stupid and really time consuming way. My fault, but I don't charge enough.

[Martin Wasner]

Oh yeah please explain.

What do you do box in a box?

We just do maple stand off blocks hit with cv..

It’s a crap look imop but it’s what we do.

Ugh...

We do a stick the full height of the opening if multiple roll outs. Those used to get drilled on the linebore. My first linebore it was easy, just a little Delta 13 spindle. It was impossible on the Gannomat, and we don't even have that anymore. We mark them out and drill them on the drill press as of right now. (Retarded, I know) I need to figure out a easy way to hold them on the cnc, that will take seconds.

5mm screws to hold 563's to the sticks.

The box itself is hard to explain. Imagine a standard 4" dovetail drawer box. Prior to assembly the front is cut down to 2". The left and right sides are cut at an angle starting from about 10" from the back, down to as close as possible without cutting into the pin in front.

They look good, but they're a lot of screwing around.

[Jim Becker]

I don't understand pull outs.

Why open a door to open a drawer?
This is a valid statement from my experience. I have pull-outs now on my island simply because I didn't know any better "back then". I do plan on replacing the current island...perhaps even this year...and it will be all drawers and nothing but drawers. I suspect that some meaningful percentage of pull outs out in the wild came about as retrofits, too, and then other folks see them and say, "how kewel...I want that' without thinking things through.

[Gary Ragatz]

I think that might be a very common belief amongst us cabinet makers.

I have yet to meet one that understood the point. As it is a bank of drawers even looks better.

Ok maybe in a pantry I get pullouts. Beyond that not so much.

As for height, the only way I would ever deviate from the 36” is when field conditions force it.

I've never built a kitchen (probably never will), but I work in mine ~ 2 hours a day.

We built a new home a couple of years ago, and went with single drawers with doors/pull outs below. No regrets.

If I recall correctly, doors with pull outs were less expensive than drawer stacks, but that wasn't a deciding factor.

I'm very happy with the pull outs - don't know why I would want to lift pots & pans or a stack of mixing bowls over an 8" or 9" drawer box, when my pull outs have a 2" lip. Also, a little easier to see what's stacked up when I don't have a deep drawer box in the way.

Don't see why a bank of drawers looks better than doors.

[lowell holmes]

I'm late to the party, but you might want to check this site.

https://www.pinterest.com/craftantix/kitchen-island-plans/?lp=true

https://www.google.com/search?q=kitchen+island+plans&oq=kitchen+island+plans&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.25847j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Tim Bueler]

I don't understand pull outs.

Why open a door to open a drawer?

The answer to your question is simple, Martin. It's because it's what the customer wants, or at least, thinks they want if we, as the cabinet maker, can't talk them into drawers. I've had some customers that simply won't open up to the idea of drawers only in the base. No problem if you charge appropriately. In the case of my own island my "customer" was SWMBO and she wanted pull out shelves. There's no way I'm getting on her dark side! If Momma ain't happy, nobody's happy! :o:D

[Bill Dufour]

Remember that kitchens and bathrooms are designed so a five year old can use them comfortably. That is why the sinks, toilets etc seem so low to adults. It is no problem for a five year old to crawl into the back of a lower cabinet to find stuff down there.
Bill D.

[Warren Lake]

it doesnt look better its just different. There are more alignment issues with gaps being uneven in drawers than doors. Drawer slides are more inconsistent than hinges in returning to where they started from. In inset face frame i like rails between drawers but its more work and you lose space.

[Martin Wasner]

In the case of my own island my "customer" was SWMBO and she wanted pull out shelves. There's no way I'm getting on her dark side! If Momma ain't happy, nobody's happy! :o:D


Oddly enough, I said this is how we're going to rearrange things, this is how it's going to look, this is what it's going to be made out of, and this is how it's going to be stained. Might build a house next year, I doubt I'll have that much say in things, but it'll be small so the options will be rather finite.

I've seen built kitchens to know what she wants more than she does. She grumbled about a few things, but in the end it all made sense to her.



Here's how I do my roll outs.



https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=401244&d=1547556555



https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=401242&d=1547556506



https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=401243&d=1547556530




Will somebody please figure out the picture situation on this site? Either fix it, or figure out what has to be done on my end? All three of those pictures are orientated correctly on my computer.

[Gary Ragatz]

Martin,

a) That's some beautiful work!
b) It looks like the pullouts can be adjusted to different heights, as needed? If so, I think that strengthens the argument for pullouts over drawers.
c) Is that a drawer at the bottom, or a pullout step?

[Jim Becker]

Martin, as an aside, it's not "this site" relative to the picture issue. It's become a common problem because of how the EXIF information is stored in phone cameras. I'm seeing this at pretty much every forum site I manage. I never have this issue because I never upload directly from my phone...everything goes into my computer first for editing. Please see this thread in Forum Tech Support for more information: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?258495-Why-your-photos-show-up-sideways-on-SMC

[Warren Lake]

id tweak them a but but nothing in this computer. That is how Kraftmaid does their pullouts. Ill find one later. Friend has had one of their kitchens for a while, better than some of the stuff ive seen.




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here is the friends cabinet. They use a face frame hinge so more room and have attached the front of the drawer slide to the strip in the cabinet. The old guy never made doors this way always a strip in the left hand door so you didnt see into the cabinet, not a big deal then his doors would have been mortise and tennon as well. Overall this kitchen has stood up well, I see finish worn off around knobs and some shrinkage so bare wood but overall it was good for the money and better than some of the junk I see.






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[Jack Frederick]

When we did the re-model a few years ago we added the 38x92x37.25 H Island. It is action central for the house as we have a 12" overhang on one side and end. That allows 3 stools on the side and one on the end. One end is blank, with electrical outlets and the side facing the stove is 3 large drawers across the top, deep, wide center drawers and cabinets on either side. The one cabinet is for vertical storage of cookie sheets, etc. One thing to consider on islands. Our island would not work out as well if you could not get around it. If you have to do a doe-see-doe with whomever else is there with you it becomes a pain in the neck having people there. As it is now with 46" between the counter and the island on the two work sides the folks on the stools can offer advise to those doing the work. Sometimes it works out well. Others...?

[Bob Grier]

Chad, When I built my kitchen I went with an island that is on legs so the floor area is continuous. I did this to help with the open space feeling in a relatively small area. I raised the top of the island to 38" so it is easier to use and sit at. The base cabinets are 36 inches. Generally I feel 36" is too low but raising it for base cabinets can cause other issues so I just raised the island. It worked out good. People like it.

My base cabinets have a top drawer that is common height across the kitchen. I have no fixed shelves. Instead I went with drawers for 3 cabinets, pullouts for 4 cabinets. The pullouts are used for storing pots & pans, storage containers, serving bowls, mixing bowls, etc. With pullouts the spacing between them is adjustable. Each of my pullout cabinets has 3 pullouts and each has different vertical spacing to fit the items being stored. Different height drawers would not look very good on adjacent cabinets. I am happy I did what I did. Once I moved into the kitchen, I added some pullouts and adjusted the height of nearly every one of the pullouts to accommodate the needs. It was easy to change the vertical spacing and add pullouts as needed. Can't do that with drawers. As mentioned by others, there is a side benefit of slightly less cost. There is a downside and that is you have to open the door to get to the pullouts. This took me several months to get use. Now I don't even notice. At first I was banging doors against partially retracted pullouts and cussing and fuming. I started to add bumpers to the pullouts. Then I decided it was easier to change my attitude and everything was good after that.

The 3 pullouts under the cooktop are 36" wide so that cabinet has 2 doors to open in-order to access the pots and pans. It works fine.

One of several neat things I did was under the sink. I purchased a large single sink with the drain on the right side. This freed up the left side under the sink for garbage and recycle containers. They are mounted on a pullout with an electric gizmo behind it. To access the garbage I simply pull the false cabinet door that is connected to the pullout. Or, if my hands are sloppy, I simply tap the door with my knee and the gizmo gives the pullout a shove and it opens so I can just drop garbage or recycle into the bins. Then I shove it back in and it self closes.

Another neat thing. Since it was a struggle for me to decide where to put the microwave I wired several places for it. Standard location in upper cabinets and one above the double ovens. In the end I decided to put a microwave drawer in the island just under the top. The microwave is now out of the way, easy to access and use. Just walk up to it and tap with knee or push a button and the drawer opens. Same for closing.

I did one other neat thing for a corner base cabinet. Basically the shelves all come out of the cabinet on sliders to give easy access to the shelves. They are adjustable in vertical position. I put large things in here like lettuce whirlybirds and tall pots but also little used baking tins.

I hope this gives you some things to think about.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin,

a) That's some beautiful work!
b) It looks like the pullouts can be adjusted to different heights, as needed? If so, I think that strengthens the argument for pullouts over drawers.
c) Is that a drawer at the bottom, or a pullout step?

A) Thank you. We work on houses I'll never be able to afford.

B) They can be adjusted, but this is a tall opening. In a base cabinet, you have a 21-ish tall opening. Two pull outs, one at the bottom, one in the middle. Much more than one hole up or down and things start getting useless quick, might as well have a drawer.

C) Drawer. Matches a oven/warming drawer cabinet on the other end of the run.


Jim, it was loaded from a computer, but taken with a phone. I'll look into it.

Thanks Warren

[Roger Feeley]

Consider extra deep drawers with removable trays. Generally, the flatware draw is deeper than it needs to be. In our last house, we had contractor cabinets and this was the case but the drawer for flatware was about 4" deep and wasn't worth messing with. When we redid it, I had that drawer made 5". Then I made a removable tray for the flatware leaving a bunch of space underneath for stuff we didn't use that much. It worked out great. My wife liked it so much she had me make trays for a some other drawers. Again, the trays were for stuff we used a lot. The space underneath was for things we seldom used.

My point here is to think three-dimensionally.