Pattern Maker's Woodworking Vise or Traditional Front Vice

[David LaRue]

I'm in the process of obtaining the materials I will need to create this workbench: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/media/fw_181_080a.jpg

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/ProductImages/workbenches/168042.jpg? http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/ProductImages/workbenches/168042.jpg

I do common woodworking tasks, and some home DIY, but no carving. Thoughts?

David

[Jeff Singleton]

Dave, That is one mean looking bench and would be a great addition to any shop. As far as vises go, and the one in the picture looks like a Kindt-Collins, you can't go wrong. The Emmerts, which I have 3, are the standard in patternmaking vises and they made them as far back as 1890. Oliver and Kindt-Collins both made nearly identical vises that are just as good as the Emmerts. You can taper the jaws, spins the jaws around like a merry go round and then loosen the arm and tilt the vise up and use it like a press. Plus the jaws will open about 16" or so. Mine also have the angled piece the fits in the jaws. There is no more versital vice then a patternmakers vise. My bench is 66" x 108", 3" thick soft maple top with 6"x8" douglas fir legs. I made my top in 5 pieces so I could take it apart and run each section through my planer and make it new again. The legs were left over when I built my timber frame addition on my house. I used Accuride guides for 20 years and switched to CSH early this year. Their guides are every bit as good as Accuride if not better and they are a whole lot less money. I hope you post a picture or two of your bench.

Jeff Singleton
"Take your time, you'll get more done"

[tod evans]

david, i opted for the patternmakers vices on my bench due to their versatility. 02, tod

[Brian Hale]

I considered that same vise but went with a standard bench vise, mostly because of the $$$, however that one is still on my list for when i build a "real" bench.

One thing i never asked is.... Does the patternmakers vise require a lot of clearance under the bench top for when you swing it up 90 deg? I assume the screw has to rotate down?

Brian :)

[tod evans]

david,brian,jeff, here are some pics of what i`ve done to mount them on a 3 1/2" bench top. the top had to be mortised and the locking bars cut and welded to clear. hope this helps? tod 26866

26867

26868

[Dan Forman]

Tod---Dude, that's some serious visage! I could maybe fit a couple of those workbenches into my shop, if I got rid of all my tools. Whats the acreage on the bench top?

Dan

[tod evans]

dan, 36"x 112", these are not "real" patternmakers vices only the taiwan clones but i`m hard on stuff and would hate to damage a real one. tod

[Steve Stube]

tod, where can I find bench feet like those you have? are the castiron?

David, how about one of each for your bench? Get the one now that you wouldn't buy/add later and make it easy on yourself later when you add the second. Not much help maybe but that is the way I would approach it.

[tod evans]

steve, the legs came from burlington northerns engine rebuilding facility in springfield mo. that was shut down in the `50`s. yes they`re cast and about 150# each i doubt you`ll find a set unless you`re a lucky junker. tod

[Dan Forman]

Tod---What would be the ideal benchtop thickness for easiest fit of the clone?

Dan

[tod evans]

dan, we`re relying on my addled memory here but i think it`s 1 5/8" i recall bob s. put one on fairly reciently he may have a better memory than i. if a fellow needs to retrofit it`s pretty straight forward so don`t shy away because of bench thickness. tod

[Dan Forman]

Thanks Tod, thinking seriously of going in that direction for my next bench.

Dan

[David LaRue]

Tod,

Wow. That's a great bench! I can be hard on certain things too. When I was a kid I broke my dad's cast iron vice in two. :o I was beating something into submission in the vice when the vice gave up 1st. (sorry dad :rolleyes: )

I leaning heavy twords the patten makers vice. They are only $200. I'm still planning on the Veritas twin screw for the tail vice.

I'd like to hear other's comments on their tradional front vice too.

David

[Alan Turner]

I have an Emmert No. 2 on my basement bench, which is where I have built all of my furniture to date. Unlike the other mountings shown here, I recessed for the hub, and the jaws are thus 1/8" in front of the bench front, not out about 3". I prefer this mount, and my space was limited. You have to cut a bit of wood to get there, however. My top is 12/4 hard maple, at 26 1/2" w by 72, with a traditional tail vise.

What I miss most about a standard WW vise is the quick action, with my hip, leaving two hands to hold something being clamped. But, on balance, I still would not trade.

In the new teaching studio, there are three "back" benches, each at 32 x 96, and 38" tall, and each has a No. 1 Emmert. They will be handy that way, with traditional WW vises on all other 11 benches (10 still under construction).

Nice bench you are building there. bE sure to leave enough room between the bottom of the top, and the drawers, for holdfasts, clamping, etc.

Somewhere way back I think I posted a pix of both benches, the second one of which was a commission of sorts with Ron Kanter (a former student). Both have traditional tail vises, and QA WW vises. The new one is 26 1/2 by 87".

As to the Emmert clone, I have not seen one so can't comment, but the old N0. 1's are about 90 lbs or so and very solid.

[Mark Singer]

David,
The Pattern Makers vise is flexible and versitile...no question. The one drawback is for edge planning boards the board should be on edge and against the edge of the bench. I have a hold fast near the other end . I think you should get both and mount the patternmakers vise on the back if you don't have a trough. I am thinking of getting one myself ...I just don't know where to put it:confused:

[Dev Emch]

For the record...

1). The vise pictured is tiny. A true emmert K1 is 18 inches wide. Oliver made two significant pattern maker vises. The #1 has a tilt system that is crude but was copied by the tucker vise. The other oliver patternmaker was the #146 or #148 and it was sold outright to Kindt Collins who changed the name and nothing else. This vise has the heaviest of all lead screws and sports rapid action vis a viz its double lead, 4 TPI, 1.25 inch lead screw. Its the only one of these vises out there with a double lead. The K1 has a 1.0 inch lead screw with 4 TPI as well but its only single lead.

2). Originals are hard to come by and often command a serious price. The last listed price prior to Kindt Collins discontinueing the vise was $1800 dollars.

3). For the most part, these vises are incredible. But they sometimes get in the way of real woodworking. They lack the spring loaded half nut you find on other vises. So you learn to crank a lot.

4). Most of these are installed such that the rear jaw kisses the bench apron making it hard to hold a board horizontal against the bench apron. But there is one way to install these such that the rear face of the rear jaw is flush with the apron. This involves carefully cutting out a jaw recess in the apron and setting the vise back a bit.

But here is the big warning about benches. Clear your social calender if you actually wish to finish one. I started mine two years ago and have had to back burner it a dozen times. At this rate, my bench will be done in about 10 years!:rolleyes: And this problem allows you to change the design. Right now, I have a paramo vise, an emmert K1 vise and a kindt collins vise. That does not include the woodcraft tail vise hardware kit I bought years ago when these things were black and not green. I do like these as the lead screw is a 1.25 inch, 4 TPI, single lead acme screw. Real beefy for a tail vise.

I keep waffling between using a single tail vise and two tail vises. No, I dont wish to use the LV dual leadscrew vise design as the distance between the dog hole tracks and the leadscrew centerlines is much to great. This will eat up hardware through racking damage.

The old, large Record vises were nice. The paramo I have is a clone of the record and was the result of churchill demanding that more than one company make these. "We need to make sure our patternmakers have the tools they need to defeat Mr. Hitler!" So a company casting man hole covers began making vises for the pattern industry. The #152 paramo I found had been sitting in the back shelves of an old hardware store for at least 20 years. I haggled with the manager and he finally cut me a nice deal to just get it out of there.... dust and all. First, its rare. Not everybody has a paramo. Second, I feel its made a bit better than the record on which its based.

One more thing. If your planning on putting a cabinet under your work bench, be warned of patternmaker vises. As they swing into the vertical, they tend to sweep an arch meaning that everything in this arch must be free. So, this may require you to cantelever one side of the table as much as 20 inches from the leg.

[Dev Emch]

Here is a picture if my K1 emmert pattern makers vise. Very nice vise but not as well done as the orig. kindt collins vise.

[Bruce Page]

Here is a picture if my K1 emmert pattern makers vise. Very nice vise but not as well done as the orig. kindt collins vise.

Sweet vice, looks almost new!

[tod evans]

very nice vice dev. puts my taiwan stuff to shame:) tod

[Alan Turner]

Here are a few pix of my basement workbench. It was built with a quick action, older WW vise, and later I stumbled onto an Emmert No. 2, which has jaws 14"w and 5" high. I did a full, nearly flush, mount which required carving it into the bottom and side of the bench, both for the lead screw housing, and the hub, and the jaws. For me it has been worth it, but I bought the Emmert about right in terms of price. I have never seen another Emmert No. 2 for sale, either before or since. I assume that Emmert did not make a lot of these, but I really have no information.

For the Emmert geeks among you, I have an original Emmert phamplet, with pricing, from the early 50's I think. A No. 1 was $63.50, and hte No. 2 was $56.50. I will see if I can reduce them and post below.

Just a quick side note -- I think that was the last timethe shop was that clean. I am a bit embarassed about that.

[Alan Turner]

Here is the Emmert Brochere, which I got when bought too many tools from a pattern shop. Bought a few Emmerts also.

[tod evans]

alan, someday if i ever get rich and famous or just plain lucky i too will own the real McCoy........nice vice and thanks for the literature. tod

[David LaRue]

Alen,

I see you made a relief in the underside of the bench too. Right? What is that for?

[Jim Dunn]

Hey Tod, I like your vice and your cup. Got a couple around here too, cups that is:)

[Alan Turner]

Alen,

I see you made a relief in the underside of the bench too. Right? What is that for?

David,

The housing for the lead screw is square in section, and about 18" long, and I believe is about 1 3/4" from the top of the mounting hinge plate when the vise is in the true horizontal position. Since my bench finished at about 2 7/8" thick, I needed to excavate a trough for the housing. Behind the jaws is a split hub which permits the jaws to rotate, like a propeller, and its diameter is perhaps 3 3/4", so one needs to excavate for that also. Then, if you want to have the jaws flush with the front edge of the bench, you need to relieve the front edge to accomodate the rear jaw casting, and this is a sort of heavy duty carving project.

A couple of hours of carving and sweating (that you measured and conceptualized correctly) and you are there.

My bench was pretty new to me at the time, and I put a lot of effort into building it, so it was a hard decision as to whether to tear it up to mount the Emmert. But, I figured that if I did not like it enough, or if I screwed up the installation, I could always rip off the dog hole strip, or shorten the bench, or cry a bit and rebuild the top, and so I went for it. A good decision, all in all. I do a fair number of cabriole legs and a bit of carving, and when the jaws are vertical, above the table, then these operations are easy!

To me, a semi-neander, the bench is the most important tool in the shop, and so no shortcuts was my rule for design and construction. This has worked out well, all in all.