Low angle jack plane vs jointer plane

[Jim Riseborough]

I have a Lie Nielsen low angle jack plane. Was going to need to flatten some glue ups, any advice if this is the best plane to use? Currently has a 30Deg bevel on the blade. Should I get a 50deg blade too?

My wood is mostly flat sawn, some knots but not alot.

Thanks

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, the 30 degree blade is really only good for end grain, or for planing across the grain. I would get a second blade and add a 40-50 degree secondary bevel for jointing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Riseborough]

Jim, the 30 degree blade is really only good for end grain, or for planing across the grain. I would get a second blade and add a 40-50 degree secondary bevel for jointing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ok, Thanks. Im using this for soft wood.

Just to be clear, my blade now is 25 degree with a "micro-bevel" of a couple degrees, and then a back bevel of 10 degrees. Are you saying get a second blade and put a 40 degree bevel, plus the micro bevel and back bevel?

I have the Veritas MK.II sharpening jig. Its got these recommendations. It says 25-30deg bevel angle is good for softwood.

Im a hand tool plane novice, so only know what I have read.

[James Pallas]

Jim, the 30 degree blade is really only good for end grain, or for planing across the grain. I would get a second blade and add a 40-50 degree secondary bevel for jointing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

42* only good for end grain?
Jim

[Jim Riseborough]

42* only good for end grain?
Jim

Is it 30* on the blade, and then the bed of the plane adds 12* for total?

So my 2nd blade would be 50* plus 12* of the plane for total of 62*?

This is where I get confused about planes! Im going to watch a few videos on the Lie Nielsen youtube channel and see what I can pick up

[Derek Cohen]

Ok, Thanks. Im using this for soft wood.

Just to be clear, my blade now is 25 degree with a "micro-bevel" of a couple degrees, and then a back bevel of 10 degrees. Are you saying get a second blade and put a 40 degree bevel, plus the micro bevel and back bevel?

I have the Veritas MK.II sharpening jig. Its got these recommendations. It says 25-30deg bevel angle is good for softwood.

Im a hand tool plane novice, so only know what I have read.

Jim, the LN blades all come with a 25 degree primary bevel. If you add an extra 5 degrees as a secondary bevel, (i.e. 30 degree) you are creating a cutting angle of 42 degrees (12 degrees bed + 30 degree bevel).

Now you MUST NOT use a 10 degree back bevel on a BU plane! This destroys the clearance needed - it reduces it to 2 degrees. Where on Earth did you get this idea? It is crazy ... and quite unnecessary if you are thinking it is a way to strengthen the blade. LN make excellent A2 blades. They are cryogenically treated.

If you were using a double iron BD plane, I would suggest that you close up the chip breaker in the face of tearout. However, since you are using a BU plane, you need to increase the cutting angle. The "common" angle is 45 degrees. You are below this, more in line with a cutting angle used specifically for end grain. But it really is a neither here-nor-there cutting angle. Too high to give the best in end grain, and too low to plane face grain (unless it is clear, strain grained wood).

I use a 25 degree bevel for end grain. Never had a problem with chipping A2 at this angle. I use a 50 degree bevel (= 62 degree cutting angle) for face or edge grain on the local hard woods. Go lower with your woods, hence a 40 degree bevel for a 52 degree cutting angle. Create this by adding a 40 degree secondary bevel to a 25 degree primary bevel. And please get rid of the back bevel! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

The best plane is a double iron bench plane. You can probably buy a serviceable plane for not too much more than a spare iron for your low angle plane.

[Jim Riseborough]

Jim, the LN blades all come with a 25 degree primary bevel. If you add an extra 5 degrees as a secondary bevel, (i.e. 30 degree) you are creating a cutting angle of 42 degrees (12 degrees bed + 30 degree bevel).

Now you MUST NOT use a 10 degree back bevel on a BU plane! This destroys the clearance needed - it reduces it to 2 degrees. Where on Earth did you get this idea? It is crazy ... and quite unnecessary if you are thinking it is a way to strengthen the blade. LN make excellent A2 blades. They are cryogenically treated.

If you were using a double iron BD plane, I would suggest that you close up the chip breaker in the face of tearout. However, since you are using a BU plane, you need to increase the cutting angle. The "common" angle is 45 degrees. You are below this, more in line with a cutting angle used specifically for end grain. But it really is a neither here-nor-there cutting angle. Too high to give the best in end grain, and too low to plane face grain (unless it is clear, strain grained wood).

I use a 25 degree bevel for end grain. Never had a problem with chipping A2 at this angle. I use a 50 degree bevel (= 62 degree cutting angle) for face or edge grain on the local hard woods. Go lower with your woods, hence a 40 degree bevel for a 52 degree cutting angle. Create this by adding a 40 degree secondary bevel to a 25 degree primary bevel. And please get rid of the back bevel! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the explanation. So I ordered another blade, I will add an extra 15 degrees to it to get to 40 on the blade and 52 total.

The back bevel came from sharpening some Bevel down planes. I have not back beveled my LN blade that is in it. I am forgetting the jack plane is BU.

Thanks

Jim

[Robert Engel]

I think you should get a #6 plane for this task.

After using one, personally I've never seen the advantage of a BU plane. I have a the same LN BU & originally got it for shooting board. Turns out its too light and doesn't fit my hand well, even with hotdog.

All I use it for now is end grain and cross grain flattening panels.

[James Pallas]

Jim, you may be getting a little confusion with the terminology of bevels. It does get confusing with micro bevels, secondary bevels and especially back bevels. Back bevel is a term generally used for a bevel put on the flat side of a bevel down plane to increase the angle from 45* degree angle of the frog. No use that I know of for a bevel up plane. Maybe you should watch a few videos to get a handle on it. I would not try to mix bevel up and bevel down plane terminology it will just be confusing. Two very different animals.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

I have a Lie Nielsen low angle jack plane. Was going to need to flatten some glue ups, any advice if this is the best plane to use? Currently has a 30Deg bevel on the blade. Should I get a 50deg blade too?

My wood is mostly flat sawn, some knots but not alot.

Thanks

My reply to, "any advice if this is the best plane to use" brings up a few questions.

How much flattening is there to be done?

How big are the glue ups?

What other planes do you have that can be put to the task?

With some glue ups my LA Jack does okay. Some of fir with swirly grain tend to have problems. The LA Jack can be effective across grain to get rid of high spots.

Around knots my low angle blade (25º) tends to cause more tear out in soft woods around knots or spots with changing grain. With great care a bevel down plane can work around knots to help counter tear out. This requires a shorter plane like a smoother, a scraper or a higher angle to the blade's edge.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

There are days I really like my LA jack and days I reach for a bevel down. A #62 is certainly capable of doing the job. You might need a higher angle blade if you decide you need the low angle you have on the current one for shooting, end grain what have you. Do you use it enough in those roles to keep it at that bevel?

[Jim Riseborough]

My reply to, "any advice if this is the best plane to use" brings up a few questions.

How much flattening is there to be done?

Boards were jointed and planed. The glue up maybe varies by 1/32"

How big are the glue ups?

It will be 4'-0" x 9'-0"

What other planes do you have that can be put to the task?

Some block planes, nothing of top quality. Stanley #4 maybe (they are older, I have not played around with them, got them at an auction)

With some glue ups my LA Jack does okay. Some of fir with swirly grain tend to have problems. The LA Jack can be effective across grain to get rid of high spots.

Around knots my low angle blade (25º) tends to cause more tear out in soft woods around knots or spots with changing grain. With great care a bevel down plane can work around knots to help counter tear out. This requires a shorter plane like a smoother, a scraper or a higher angle to the blade's edge.

jtk

See above in bold.

[Jim Riseborough]

There are days I really like my LA jack and days I reach for a bevel down. A #62 is certainly capable of doing the job. You might need a higher angle blade if you decide you need the low angle you have on the current one for shooting, end grain what have you. Do you use it enough in those roles to keep it at that bevel?

I will have blades with 25* and 40* each one. I just ordered a new blade to cut to 40*

[Jim Koepke]

Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke:
My reply to, "any advice if this is the best plane to use" brings up a few questions.

How much flattening is there to be done?

Boards were jointed and planed. The glue up maybe varies by 1/32"

How big are the glue ups?

It will be 4'-0" x 9'-0"

What other planes do you have that can be put to the task?

Some block planes, nothing of top quality. Stanley #4 maybe (they are older, I have not played around with them, got them at an auction)

With some glue ups my LA Jack does okay. Some of fir with swirly grain tend to have problems. The LA Jack can be effective across grain to get rid of high spots.

Around knots my low angle blade (25º) tends to cause more tear out in soft woods around knots or spots with changing grain. With great care a bevel down plane can work around knots to help counter tear out. This requires a shorter plane like a smoother, a scraper or a higher angle to the blade's edge.

jtk


See above in bold.

Then my best advice would be to use what you have and learn from the experience.

If you can get the #4 working well, that would be a help.

jtk

[Jim Riseborough]

Then my best advice would be to use what you have and learn from the experience.

If you can get the #4 working well, that would be a help.

jtk

Thanks! will update this when I get everything glued up and start flattening it all out.

[Ted Phillips]

I have a Lie Nielsen low angle jack plane. Was going to need to flatten some glue ups, any advice if this is the best plane to use? Currently has a 30Deg bevel on the blade. Should I get a 50deg blade too?

My wood is mostly flat sawn, some knots but not alot.

Thanks

I've got three irons for my BU low angle jack - a standard 30 degree, a 50 degree, and a toothed iron. This is one of the best things about this plane - you can change out the iron and have a whole new plane. Been wanting to try out the 90 degree scraper blade, but haven't dropped the coin on it yet.

TedP

[steven c newman]

I have a #62 and a #6c, a #7c, and a #8 The jointers win hands down.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a #62 and a #6c, a #7c, and a #8 The jointers win hands down.

Why Steven? Inquiring minds would benefit from your reasons (I can see pros and cons - horses for courses).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Lately I have been working with skipped planed Ash....trying to plane it into S4S.....and getting way betters results using a Millers Falls No. 11 Junior Jack plane, than whatever that 62 thinks is good work.

IF it cuts.....if it doesn't produce tearout WITH the grain....jointing an edge is a joke, always bevels an edge...then I have to come back and fix that, with a normal jointer plane, lately it has been a Stanley No. 6c, type 10. Lately, the #62 just sits on a shelf....
401089401090401091401092

YMMV

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, what is the angle of the bevel on your #62's blade? What came with the plane when new?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

401106
Needed this Ash plank S4S....drawers will be sliding on it. There is a knot sitting there, 20 degree bevel tore the H out of it...flipped this useless side over..
401107
And let Junior handle the job...the knot?
401108
Had two of these boards to mill, one for the drawers, the other for a pencil til. Junior did the rest of the work..
401109401110
Even jointed the edges square..
401111
IF you look back a bit, you will see the #62 in it's normal spot...$$$ shelf sitter.

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, if you are using the low angle jack with the factory angle on the blade (25 degrees), then the cutting angle will be 37 degrees (25 degrees for the blade + 12 degrees for the bed). This is far too low for most face grain, and definitely too low for any interlocked wood. If you plane is set up like this, then it is no wonder it is tearing out. You need to increase the bevel angle to increase the cutting angle (I would suggest a bevel angle of at least 40 degrees).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Many planes seem to have places where they excel. For me the low angle Jack excels on end grain. Sometimes it is used on face grain of straight grained wood and does a good job. Of course the relatively recent shooting plane from Veritas is even better at end grain on a shooting board. Though the Veritas shooting plane likely isn't a great choice for panel flattening.

jtk

[steven c newman]

I might shoot end grain....couple of times a year. Have had to sharpen the iron on the 62 already....stayed with the same angle set ups. I do not put back bevels and other strange concoctions on the plane irons I use....
401164
Sometimes, this is about all I need
401165
Sometimes, this is all I need to level a glue joint...
401166
Sometimes, I can use the #8 to flatten a panel..
401167
Sometimes just a Jack plane will do.

YMMV....

[lowell holmes]

I love this string. It shows why we need at least one of each tools.

[Terry Beadle]

Quite some time ago I bought a #10 Harbor Freight small plane. I think I paid $12 or so. I shaped the cutting edge for roughing work and have used it on several glue up work pieces.
Good steel. Cheap. Light weight so an old 70 yr old man like me can cut the mustard with it. A lot cheaper than a low Angle spare blade etc.

Recommended.

Enjoy the shavings.

[Jim Riseborough]

Jim, the LN blades all come with a 25 degree primary bevel. If you add an extra 5 degrees as a secondary bevel, (i.e. 30 degree) you are creating a cutting angle of 42 degrees (12 degrees bed + 30 degree bevel).

Now you MUST NOT use a 10 degree back bevel on a BU plane! This destroys the clearance needed - it reduces it to 2 degrees. Where on Earth did you get this idea? It is crazy ... and quite unnecessary if you are thinking it is a way to strengthen the blade. LN make excellent A2 blades. They are cryogenically treated.

If you were using a double iron BD plane, I would suggest that you close up the chip breaker in the face of tearout. However, since you are using a BU plane, you need to increase the cutting angle. The "common" angle is 45 degrees. You are below this, more in line with a cutting angle used specifically for end grain. But it really is a neither here-nor-there cutting angle. Too high to give the best in end grain, and too low to plane face grain (unless it is clear, strain grained wood).

I use a 25 degree bevel for end grain. Never had a problem with chipping A2 at this angle. I use a 50 degree bevel (= 62 degree cutting angle) for face or edge grain on the local hard woods. Go lower with your woods, hence a 40 degree bevel for a 52 degree cutting angle. Create this by adding a 40 degree secondary bevel to a 25 degree primary bevel. And please get rid of the back bevel! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Back on my project, getting ready to change the angle of the new blade I ordered from LN. How far up the original bevel do I need to grind onto the blade? Im going to go with 40*, so if I go the thickness of the blade up into the factory bevel, that ok?

[David Silverson]

I follow Derek’s advice and sharpen all my BU blades at 25 *. I then add a secondary microbevel as desired , so in your case the secondary microbevel would be at 40* approx 2mm wide.

[Jim Riseborough]

Something like this ok then?402567

[David Silverson]

That’s what I do.

[Derek Cohen]

I follow Derek’s advice and sharpen all my BU blades at 25 *. I then add a secondary microbevel as desired , so in your case the secondary microbevel would be at 40* approx 2mm wide.

David, only a micro-sized secondary bevel at the chosen angle is needed, especially if you plane to add camber to the bevel.

Years and years ago, when BU planes had begun to be popular, they acquired a reputation for being extraordinarily difficult to camber at the higher bevel angles. What was happening was that users were purchasing the high angle versions (from Lee Valley) or grinding the bevel at the desired high angle (if LN). This resulted in a lot of steel to remove when cambering. Too much steel.

My solution was to use the lowest bevel angle (which is 25 degrees) and add the camber to this at the same time as the desired secondary bevel angle. The amount of the secondary to remove is as small as you can make it. Wider not only is unnecessary, but it makes for more work (more steel to remove). Honing with this method is as efficient as when honing a BD blade.

Because the bevel angles matter when honing BU, unlike when honing BD, you are advised to use a honing guide.

Here is the article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Silverson]

Thanks again. I did go back and reread your article carefully. I had read it years ago when you first posted it but until this thread somehow missed that you used a guide to create the microbevel. I then this week bought the Lee Valley system 2 guide with the cambered roller and have been thrilled and very pleased with the results.