14" sash or 16" tenon saw?

[Seth Bushinsky]

Hi folks,

I am looking to buy a larger back saw and am looking for advice about what would be a good next saw. I currently have a dovetail (9") and a carcass (11") saw, as well as a D8 rip saw and an old, kind of rusty panel saw that I've filed crosscut. I think a larger back saw would help me - I've found find myself bottoming out in depth of cut with my carcass saw and would like to make some larger projects (next up are a new bed, new workbench, and a toolbox).

I've seen opinions online about whether a smaller sash saw (14") or a larger tenon saw (16 or even 18") is a good third joinery saw to get. Obviously personal preference weighs in, but I don't have an easy way to try out different sized saws until I can find a tool show nearby and thought I'd solicit some opinions here. Since my style of work matters - I use almost entirely hand tools right now, but down the road I'm open to getting a band saw or table saw (and definitely a lathe) if my workshop is no longer also the second bedroom of my apartment and I'd like to get something that will be used forever.

Anyway, any advice appreciated. I've lurked on here for a while and enjoy seeing the work posted and the discussions.

Best,
Seth

[Tony Wilkins]

I would think that the scale of work would influence the suggestions. I see bed and workbench (definitely a special case but can be done with a handsaw) in your future. What kind of bed with what kind of joinery? Besides these, are you more apt to build jewelry boxes or armoires?

[Derek Cohen]

Seth, I find more use for a 14" sash saw than a 16" tenon saw with more common sized work (e.g. 2"-3" wide tenons). Both are rip, but the smaller, lighter saw, in spite of having more teeth, cuts tenons as quickly. It feels better balanced and more user friendly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Seth Bushinsky]

So far I've mainly built smaller items like boxes. The largest piece of furniture I've made was my first - cutting board table for our kitchen, which acted as my gateway drug I suppose. And right now I'm in the middle of trying to make a jewelry box modeled after a Nakashima Mira box.

The bed I have in mind is this one: http://offermanwoodshop.com/custom/beds/slumberjack-knock-bed/. Down the road I'd like to build a desk, coffee table, and bookshelves.

[Seth Bushinsky]

Thanks for the input Derek. I've read through your website, so I have some idea of the size of furniture you work on which helps to put that in context.

[Jeff Heath]

Typical plate depths under the back on a 14" saw range from 3 3/8" to 3 5/8" (these are approx. depending on the maker). Are you going to be building with larger timbers that are wider, and will require a deeper cut?

I have 2 16" Bad Axe saws. One filed rip, and one filed cross cut. I love the 4" depth of cut, but I work with larger timbers all the time, frequently cutting legs in stock that is off the sawmill at 6" X 4". Not a common timber, but I build a lot of rustic furniture with heavy slab tops. My 14" saws are plenty good enough for other typical woodworking projects. As Derek stated, you're rarely going to be cutting to a depth of more than 3 1/2", so the 14" saws should be plenty good enough. The bigger saws are sure nice to have, but are also more money, and are heavier in the hand, and require a little more wielding when sawing. Not necessary in 4/4 or 8/4 stock.

[Mark Rainey]

I agree with Derek & Jeff in that a 14 inch rip backsaw will be easier to handle initially. But I am going to recommend the Lie Neilsen tapered 16 inch tenon for several reasons. Lie Neilsen is a quality company & makes a quality saw. When I got the saw it was a bit unwieldy. But after a short period I adjusted and the thin plate and small set teeth allowed me to saw tenons like a knife thru butter. Most important of all is LN will sharpen your saw for $25 whenever you need it. That was the dealmaker for me. Yes, you can sharpen your own saw, but there is a learning curve. Many on this forum have those skills but for the (early) woodworker who chooses to focus on woodworking this will be a consideration. Your saw will get dull.

[Pete Taran]

Totally agree with what others have said about the 14" saw. A 16" saw is tricky to use, heavy and easy to get off track, especially for newer woodworkers not used to saws like this. I've sold many 16" saws to people who wanted them, many come back wanting to trade down to a 14" saw. It is a special tool for special work. You didn't say if you wanted your saw to to crosscut or rip work. I assume rip as even your 11" carcass saw should give you the depth of cut for the type of work you mentioned doing. If not, a standard 12" 13ppi crosscut is a great start to fix that problem.

[Ron Bontz]

Totally agree with what others have said about the 14" saw. A 16" saw is tricky to use, heavy and easy to get off track, especially for newer woodworkers not used to saws like this. I've sold many 16" saws to people who wanted them, many come back wanting to trade down to a 14" saw. It is a special tool for special work. You didn't say if you wanted your saw to to crosscut or rip work. I assume rip as even your 11" carcass saw should give you the depth of cut for the type of work you mentioned doing. If not, a standard 12" 13ppi crosscut is a great start to fix that problem.

+1 Typical sash--14" tooth line, 3.5" under spine, 0.025" thick plate. Filed 11-12 ppi, 6* to 10* rake, ( depending on aggressiveness desired ) and no fleam.
Typical 16" -- 16" tooth line, 4.0" under spine, 0.025" plate or 0.032" plate. ( I like the 0.032" plate better. More rigid ). Filed 10-11ppi, 4* to 10* rake,( depending on aggressiveness desired ) NO Fleam. Much is simply your preference.
Best wishes.

[Seth Bushinsky]

Thanks for all the responses. It seems like a 14" sash saw would be sufficient for what I do/have planned. I think it probably makes sense to start there and if I find myself still wanting something larger in a few years I can re-think things.

The $25 resharpening from Lie-Nielsen is a good deal, but I'm optimistic I can do a decent job sharpening my saws, though the dovetail saw with its fine teeth is a bit intimidating.

Thanks again, this has been helpful.

-Seth

[lowell holmes]

Many in this group would have one of each. :)
I do including a Blackburn kit.

https://bontzsawworks.net/

http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/slotted-back-saw-kits/index.html

[Seth Bushinsky]

That's fair (and I'm sure that Bontz saw of yours is a good-looking saw). I'm hoping that by acquiring tools over time I'll end up with fewer purchases I regret and fewer tools going unused.

[Jeff Heath]

Thanks for all the responses. It seems like a 14" sash saw would be sufficient for what I do/have planned. I think it probably makes sense to start there and if I find myself still wanting something larger in a few years I can re-think things.

The $25 resharpening from Lie-Nielsen is a good deal, but I'm optimistic I can do a decent job sharpening my saws, though the dovetail saw with its fine teeth is a bit intimidating.

Thanks again, this has been helpful.

-Seth

These are wise words. You HAVE to learn to sharpen your own tools if you're going to work with wood. When I'm busy with a lot of work (like the past 20 years) I sharpen my tools every day. You can't keep sending out your tools (AND your money) to someone else to do a task such as sharpening, which has an easy learning curve. If you're nervous about it, practice on a $10 garage sale Disston (they are everywhere around here) and once you're a little comfortable, move on to your new saws. You just might find, as I did, that those Disston garage sale finds are pretty darned good saws, too. Still, having a Bontz, a Bad Axe, A Wenzloff, a Lie Nielsen, .....(insert your favorite saw maker) is always a joy. I personally love my Bad Axe saws (2) and my Mikey Wenzloff saws (5), but my other 10 or 15 or 20 saws (my YouTube subs keep giving them to me, so I'm honestly not sure how many I have up in the shop) that are sharp cut just as well. They just aren't as pretty.

[lowell holmes]

The Bontz saw was a special order saw before he started offering kits.
I had him send me a 4"x 24" saw plate toothed and sharpened rip. IIRC he also included saw nuts.
I made a curly maple handle. It is a sawing machine for rip cuts.