Shaper spindle rebuild.

[Jared Sankovich]

Double 6008z bearings on top, lower bearing has two grease grooves ground into the race.. from the haphazard angle and location I don't think it was a NSK factory option. I can match it but hate the idea of abrasive dust contamination. Even with cleaning it's a concern.

Thoughts?

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[sean meltvedt]

Jared, I think I would clean it somewhat, put down some tape around, then coat that with grease. The thought being that the abrasive would get stuck in the grease on top of the tape. Then just pull off the tape and contaminated grease, clean end repack the bearing.
On another hand, Im in the process of replacing my own bearings on a g1026. It takes a pair of 6205 bearings. So I say to myself-these are the same bearings that are in my Polaris sled idlers. So I install a pair of 6205rs bearings and do a test run. In about 10 minutes, the spindle was very warm. Now I have the correct 6205zz bearings coming. The sled bearings seal has too much friction and creates heat at spindle speeds. The zz shields are non-contact, so no heat from the seal. Lesson learned!
Cheers
Sean

[David Kumm]

Is there a grease zerk on the side of the quill that matches the spot for the bearings to accept the grease or does the grease enter the bearing from the top? If the grease can enter from the top, there should be no need for the two slots unless that is to expel grease if overfilled. The bearing does look too full as do most open bearings. What is the machine and do you have more pictures. I would replace with shielded SKF Explorer and remove one shield. Then buy a cartridge if SKF grease for later. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

Is there a grease zerk on the side of the quill that matches the spot for the bearings to accept the grease or does the grease enter the bearing from the top? If the grease can enter from the top, there should be no need for the two slots unless that is to expel grease if overfilled. The bearing does look too full as do most open bearings. What is the machine and do you have more pictures. I would replace with shielded SKF Explorer and remove one shield. Then buy a cartridge if SKF grease for later. Dave

Its a Bridgewood 511. Double zerks matching the "ports" the design is slightly open so grease replacement is part of the maintenance process.. I assume to remove any contamination.

I already have the bearings

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[David Kumm]

Do you have the manual and know the bearings are correct? I only question because I've had machines with improper bearing replacements and found a reference over at Practical Machinist talking about two angular contact bearings for a Bridgewood shaper. As to the slots on the bottom bearing, I've never seen anything like that. When the bearing is fitted, does it cover the grease hole so the slots were needed for the grease to enter the balls? Also, you don't want C3 clearance on the bearings. CN is fine. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

The bearings I pulled were 6008z and match the manual

As for the manual, all I have is the laguna version (though the Axminister manual is the same) for the 5XX series shapers.

From the inspection and teardown of the machine it's the correct assembly as shown in the exploded diagram.

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[David Kumm]

I saw the laguna manual too and wondered if the Bridgewood used the same bearings. I'm not sure the Delta version did. The PM thread made some sense to me as a low angle 15 degree pair of A/C bearings would be an upgrade with both radial and axial load capacities but would need a design with removable shields on the quill as A/C bearings are almost always open. Are the grooves in the bottom bearing necessary for the grease hole to clear the bearing? The double bearing in the picture shows the open faces mated together. How does the grease get into them? Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

I saw the laguna manual too and wondered if the Bridgewood used the same bearings. I'm not sure the Delta version did. The PM thread made some sense to me as a low angle 15 degree pair of A/C bearings would be an upgrade with both radial and axial load capacities but would need a design with removable shields on the quill as A/C bearings are almost always open. Are the grooves in the bottom bearing necessary for the grease hole to clear the bearing? The double bearing in the picture shows the open faces mated together. How does the grease get into them? Dave

I found a delta manual before and IIRC it used double 6009 or 6010s

The open faces mate, the groove is the crude method grease is supposed to pass through the quill and into the bearings then the excess builds up in the quill, or comes out the between the top retaining plate and spindle spanner nut.

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[David Kumm]

I wonder if Darcy or peter have seen something like that. I haven't. I have seen bearings with a slot around the outside and holes so the grease could fill the slot and eventually deliver into the hole but not what you have there unless someone's idea of an improvement. I don't know how the grease would enter the bearing without them. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

I wonder if Darcy or peter have seen something like that. I haven't. I have seen bearings with a slot around the outside and holes so the grease could fill the slot and eventually deliver into the hole but not what you have there unless someone's idea of an improvement. I don't know how the grease would enter the bearing without them. Dave

I assume all the shapers of this design have the same setup. They all seem to have the double zerks with a pair of 600X bearings. I agree with you there is no other way for grease to make it to the bearings without the modification.

Seems a bit of an after thought though.

Add cantek to the list of those with the same design
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[David Kumm]

Jet also sold that machine and their manuals can be bought online. I wonder if the zerks actually prolong the bearing life or not. Too much is almost as bad as. too little grease. Dave

[Jerry Bruette]

I've rebuilt alot of spindles at work, some with angular contact bearings and some with 6xxxx deep groove bearings, and none of them have ever been bastardized like the ones you show. These spindles are on precision metal cutting machines.

How much run time do you think you'll have in one year? The page you show with the recommended maintenance says 2 pumps of grease every 200 hours of run time. I have a hard time believing those 4 pumps of grease that happen once or twice a year are doing much to flush contaminants out of the bearings. Even if the bearings had provisions for grease to get in from the two zerks there's no way to assure that the grease is getting into both bearings. In my experience the grease will take the path of least resistance.


Dave is right about too much grease. When too much grease is put into a bearing it creates a condition called slushing. Instructor in millwright school gave the analogy of a person running in water. Running in ankle deep water is easy, but running in waist deep water is more difficult. Too much grease can create alot of heat that isn't good for the bearing or the spindle.

I think I'd hand pack the bearings and install them as shown in the manual then try to put a slinger above the bearing to help keep contaminants out of the bearing. McMaster-Carr may have a bearing slinger that would work.

[Jared Sankovich]

I think I'd hand pack the bearings and install them as shown in the manual then try to put a slinger above the bearing to help keep contaminants out of the bearing. McMaster-Carr may have a bearing slinger that would work.

The design keeps some contamination out. Packing and installing as is doesn't sound then bad. The bearings are relatively inexpensive and disassembly if needed was relatively straight forward.

The spanner nut overlaps the retaining plate to make the open path to the bearing slightly difficult for particulates
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[David Kumm]

Too much oil has the same problems. My oil bath bearing machines need to be fairly level or the low bearing will heat up.

Jerry, do you have a preference for double deep groove or A/C in this type of application and how would you deal with an external replacement for the missing shield on A/C. Dave

[Jerry Bruette]

The design keeps some contamination out. Packing and installing as is doesn't sound then bad. The bearings are relatively inexpensive and disassembly if needed was relatively straight forward.

The spanner nut overlaps the retaining plate to make the open path to the bearing slightly difficult for particulates
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Looks like your spanner nut creates a bit of a labyrinth seal to help keep contaminants out.

[Jerry Bruette]

Too much oil has the same problems. My oil bath bearing machines need to be fairly level or the low bearing will heat up.

Jerry, do you have a preference for double deep groove or A/C in this type of application and how would you deal with an external replacement for the missing shield on A/C. Dave

Sorry to get back so late, work and shoveling snow got in the way.

Dave, I guess I don't have a preference. I've only replaced what was there, but I have developed some opinions.

The A/C bearings seem to be very stout, but if you don't have experience installing or setting them you could be your own worst enemy. You have to pick whether they go in back to back or face to face and then you have to decide how you're going to set the end play, by feel or measure with an instrument. I don't think I've ever dealt with a A/C that had a shield or seal that was integral to the bearing. All of our spindles have either a labyrinth seal or a cover plate with a lip seal installed. Some of the A/C bearings we work with have a eight inch bore and have a lip seal in the retaining cover.

I assume you're referring to 5xxx series double deep groove bearings. I think I've only installed them in centrifugal pumps and not on a machine spindle. They run in an oil bath and have the holes in the outer ring to introduce oil for lubrication. You can just put these bearings in and forget about them. You don't have to worry about setting end play.

Lip seals can be another hot subject. You have to decide if your seal is to be installed as an inclusion or exclusion type situation. Do you want to keep the lubricant in the spindle housing with a possibility of contaminants working their way in or is it okay to let the lubricant out in order to flush out contaminants when you replenish the lubricant?

How much axial thrust is there in a shaper spindle? I'm thinking most of the force would be radial, but I don't know what the different type of cutters look like. And that could be a deciding factor for which type of bearing is installed.

[David Kumm]

Good info Jerry. I've not installed A/C to set the the play. I think the old Wadkin EQ shapers used that type of bearing. All of my shapers use deep groove radial bearings. I did experiment with shaft seals when I rebuilt my Whitney 77 sliding saw. The original set up was oil bath and I wanted to keep it that way. I had shaft seals milled into the end bells but oil still leaked out of the front bearing when the blade was tilted so I went to grease on that one. The later Whitney 177 used grease bearings but the outer had a slot all the way around with a hole to allow grease to enter. It was a large 63311 with a snap ring so not cheap to replace. Dave

[brent stanley]

Good info Jerry. I've not installed A/C to set the the play. I think the old Wadkin EQ shapers used that type of bearing. All of my shapers use deep groove radial bearings. I did experiment with shaft seals when I rebuilt my Whitney 77 sliding saw. The original set up was oil bath and I wanted to keep it that way. I had shaft seals milled into the end bells but oil still leaked out of the front bearing when the blade was tilted so I went to grease on that one. The later Whitney 177 used grease bearings but the outer had a slot all the way around with a hole to allow grease to enter. It was a large 63311 with a snap ring so not cheap to replace. Dave

I think you're correct about the EQ bearings, and I believe the preload was designed to be delivered by the weight of the whole quill assembly.

Interested to know more about the oil system. I'm getting ready to use my EQ after letting it sit for a year. It was properly lubricated when I put it away for the year, and my assumption was that it was hard to over oil it since any excess would just run away. Is the risk of over oiling the same with the oil mist system as with the oil bath system?

B

[David Kumm]

Oil mist or drip systems should be better if working. The oil should have a way to exit and recirculate. Oil bath can get into problems if people modify the height of the reservoir and the oil doesn't exit out the shaft to reach proper depth. Usually the bath only covers the bottom 1/4-1/3 of the bearing- maybe less. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

Do you have the manual and know the bearings are correct? I only question because I've had machines with improper bearing replacements and found a reference over at Practical Machinist talking about two angular contact bearings for a Bridgewood shaper. As to the slots on the bottom bearing, I've never seen anything like that. When the bearing is fitted, does it cover the grease hole so the slots were needed for the grease to enter the balls? Also, you don't want C3 clearance on the bearings. CN is fine. Dave

I found the PM thread, I think the person there was confused about the stacked bearings. Though I am curious how much axial play this setup will have once the spindle is back together (grease finally shows up today)

[Jared Sankovich]

Looks like your spanner nut creates a bit of a labyrinth seal to help keep contaminants out.

It does, though it doesn't help much if the entire table opening is packed full with MDF dust. Maintenance was not the previous owner (Mill shop) strong suit.

[Jared Sankovich]

I realized the lower zerk didn't actually do anything other than fill up the quill with grease, since its past the bearing shoulder.

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It's running a bit warm on inital break in.