I just don’t get it I'm trying to learn

[James Pallas]

It seems to me that many people use a grinder or power sharpening regularly even routinely. I do use a grinder but rarely. I grind a chisel or plane iron and than just maintain it unless I damage it enough to warrant grinding. If the bevel gets to flat I just maintain it that way. I have chisels in regular use that have not seen a grinder in five years. Granted I’m not doing as much work as I had in the past, even then I didn’t use a grinder much. I did buy a CBN wheel and it works very well. I guess the questions I have are,
Do you grind as soon as the arc is gone.
Do you grind every time you sharpen
How long does it take you to maintain a blade, ie 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes

it usually takes me between 2 and five minutes to maintain an edge even when flat bevel.

This is not meant to be critical of anyone’s methods. Just trying to learn.
Jim

I messed up the header somehow

[ken hatch]

It seems to me that many people use a grinder or power sharpening regularly even routinely. I do use a grinder but rarely. I grind a chisel or plane iron and than just maintain it unless I damage it enough to warrant grinding. If the bevel gets to flat I just maintain it that way. I have chisels in regular use that have not seen a grinder in five years. Granted I’m not doing as much work as I had in the past, even then I didn’t use a grinder much. I did buy a CBN wheel and it works very well. I guess the questions I have are,
Do you grind as soon as the arc is gone.
Do you grind every time you sharpen
How long does it take you to maintain a blade, ie 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes

it usually takes me between 2 and five minutes to maintain an edge even when flat bevel.

This is not meant to be critical of anyone’s methods. Just trying to learn.
Jim

I messed up the header somehow

Jim,

We are in the same school, even sounds like maybe the same classroom.:-)

I will grind if the edge is in need of more work than my short attention span on the stones allow. Either way, grind or no grind, it is usually a two stone, occasionally three stone process. Most of my bevels are flat except when fresh off the grinder or a convex bevel is needed.

ken

[Vincent Tai]

“Arc is gone”? I’m going to assume the hollow? I grind well before that. Usually. Some irons are thin and small enough that I just go meh and be lazy sometimes. Even for a full size vintage Stanley plane iron I sometimes let go until the hollow is mostly gone.

I do not grind every time I sharpen. I would question the usefulness of doing so. Would say it’s useless to do so frankly unless one has a habit of dropping tools or nicking the edge on something hard. Oh yikes that’s me except I always drop on my feet. Breaks the fall well.

The first few honings off a fresh, near fresh hollow is very quick, around 30-40 seconds, sometimes less more or less depending on tool size or sharpening method. And then you reach 1 min, 2, etc as the days go by. Depends on how much wear between each session too. Plane blades seem to stay away longer from the grinder. Also tools I choose to hollow grind but sharpen with a secondary bevel can stay away from the grinder for a while. No grinding of the “other end of the hollow” means the hollow stays intact a bit longer I guess. Sometimes the blades seem to plateau for a bit at a certain time, 2-3 min range maybe.

As for regrinding, a quick and accurately repeatable angle setting jig is useful. Necessary in my books. The ones like what the Veritas rest comes with are useless. I’m not too sure on the speed of say the tormek jig but the accuracy seems very nice and if you can keep the angle somehow for your rest of the tools then perhaps the extra time setting up is made up in ease of repeatable grinding.

Regrinding should be a quick affair, a “quick buzz” at the grinder should do it for many chisel sizes. 30-40 seconds for a thick plane blade that has seen some good honing. Maybe 90 seconds or more for more shallow angles on thick stuff or for something I’ve really let the hollow get away.

Maintaining a hollow is useful on thick hard stuff. Even just maintaining a ball park grinding angle and honing on a secondary bevel is very useful and quick, actually a bit quicker, you can work on the stone faster then balancing on the hollow. I choose to do this on many tools, Stanley irons, some odds and ends, super thick stuff, some slimmer stuff, something like the blunt chisel technique is an extreme example of angles, grind at a “normal” angle and hone around 90 degrees.

[Tom M King]

I never grind unless the edge is damaged. I never worry about how much of a hollow. It starts with a hollow, whenever it comes off the grinder, but after that, the flat just takes over the bevel until, and if, it needs to visit a grinder again. I have helpers that are hopeless by hand, but can get a sharp edge as good as I can when using my setting gauges, and a jig. We never do micro bevels either. There is no guesswork, and angles are always maintained exactly the same.

Probably not much over a minute for honing in the middle of a job. Irons start at 6k in the middle of a job. Maybe three minutes if starting from scratch. The sharpening sink is set up, ready to go always. We use sharp chisels for many things other than normal woodworking uses, so the system needs to be efficient, and so anyone can do it.

[Jim Koepke]

I have chisels in regular use that have not seen a grinder in five years.


I will grind if the edge is in need of more work


I never grind unless the edge is damaged. I never worry about how much of a hollow.

My blades are kept away from grinding as long as they can be easily sharpened on stones.

The power sharpening system in my shop produces a flat bevel.

Currently a foot powered grinding stone is being set up for shop use. Though it might only be useable outside:

400318

Maybe having the ability to grind a hollow will get me to grind a hollow more often.

jtk

[ken hatch]

I don't find a hollow all that useful as a means of registering the chisel, a good flat bevel works just as well. If I've dubbed the edge of a flat bevel I'll usually go to the grinder to fix. Like I posted before I have a short attention span on the stones and will sharpen earlier rather than later. BTW I've the new Tormek diamond stone that will grind a flat bevel. I haven't tried it yet. Next time I've a few spare minutes in the shop I'll give it a go and a thumbs up or down. I will say it is faster than the CBN wheel it replaced but also a much coarser grind. Removing the grind marks on a flat bevel might be more work than I would like..

ken

[James Pallas]

[QUOTE=Vincent Tai;2883670]“Arc is gone”? Funny what a person is use to saying. I'm used to calling arc like an arch and a hollow like a bowl. So a hollow to me is like the face of a Japanese chisel:o
Jim

[James Pallas]

I don't find a hollow all that useful as a means of registering the chisel, a good flat bevel works just as well. If I've dubbed the edge of a flat bevel I'll usually go to the grinder to fix. Like I posted before I have a short attention span on the stones and will sharpen earlier rather than later. BTW I've the new Tormek diamond stone that will grind a flat bevel. I haven't tried it yet. Next time I've a few spare minutes in the shop I'll give it a go and a thumbs up or down. I will say it is faster than the CBN wheel it replaced but also a much coarser grind. Removing the grind marks on a flat bevel might be more work than I would like..

ken

i tried a friends Tormek once. Maybe it was the setup but I found it very slow. I don't do many chisel refurbishes so not a lot of flattening. I also think that when you flatten you have a good chance of putting the good part out of parallel with the other side. Then you use a guide and your out of whack somewhat. I'm not saying that all chisel come parallel either or square to the sides or not tapered along the length. IMO that is why guides don't work so well sometimes. I do own some tho. When I do grind I don't worry much about the finish in the arc "hollow" I don't think it too difficult to work a narrow edge off of a 36 grit stone but do find it to be more work than just cleaning up a good full bevel because I can't seem to balance that well. All the high speed, low speed this system or that system has me confused and thinking I'm not up to date.
Jim

[Tom M King]

There is no one right way. The work doesn't care how you get it sharp. It only needs to be a sharp intersection of the bevel, and back side.

[Vincent Tai]

There is no one right way. The work doesn't care how you get it sharp. It only needs to be a sharp intersection of the bevel, and back side.

So true. I have tools that never touch the grinder and I really don't notice the extra time spent on stones. Recently a majority of my honing is on the spyderco ceramics with a Jnat as the finisher, Atoma 1200x as the more aggressive stone when needed. Maybe next week I'll use my water stones more. I also need to get oilstones, just to satisfy some unhealthy urges.

[ken hatch]

i tried a friends Tormek once. Maybe it was the setup but I found it very slow. I don't do many chisel refurbishes so not a lot of flattening. I also think that when you flatten you have a good chance of putting the good part out of parallel with the other side. Then you use a guide and your out of whack somewhat. I'm not saying that all chisel come parallel either or square to the sides or not tapered along the length. IMO that is why guides don't work so well sometimes. I do own some tho. When I do grind I don't worry much about the finish in the arc "hollow" I don't think it too difficult to work a narrow edge off of a 36 grit stone but do find it to be more work than just cleaning up a good full bevel because I can't seem to balance that well. All the high speed, low speed this system or that system has me confused and thinking I'm not up to date.
Jim

Jim,

I have a like/hate relationship with the Tormek. CBN and now diamond wheels have moved the needle more to the like side than hate but yes it is slow. The things that save it are the new 77 jig and it is almost impossible to burn your tools. If I used it more I would go a different route and if I didn't own one I would not buy one.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe next week I'll use my water stones more. I also need to get oilstones, just to satisfy some unhealthy urges.

My water stones are on vacation when it is cold enough for water to freeze in the shop. Quartz heaters were on sale recently so one was acquired for the shop.

jtk

[Bob Glenn]

It's easier to keep a tool sharp than to sharpen it when it gets dull.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, my sharpening methods vary according to the needs of the blade. (1) Japanese paring chisels are honed flat by hand, and never touch a grinder. (2) All bench chisels and BD plane blades are hollow ground at 30 degrees, and then freehanded directly on the hollow. (3) All BU plane blades are hollow ground at 25 degrees, and then receive a secondary bevel using a honing guide.

It is the second group that will interest you most. The system that I have written about so frequently is based on as full a hollow as possible. The Tormek guides (whether used on the Tormek or bench grinder) allow for a high degree of accuracy, and the CBN wheel creates a fine and even surface. The aim is to leave the minimum amount of steel to hone, which is a bonus with the more abrasive resistant steels, such as PM-V11 and A2. I love using O1, but the edges last a very short time on my local woods. Maximum hollow, minimum honing time.

I touch up the edge as soon as I feel it not cutting easily. At first this requires only the 6000 and 13000 stones. About half a dozen honings into the edge, and the micro bevel has increased in size to about 2mm in width. At that point the 1000 grit stone is used. I would continue this way until the edge is 3mm, and then it is time to grind the hollow again. The point of the hollow is to speed up honing. Once this is not happening, grind again. How frequently one grinds depends on the steel type, the honing media, and the skill in achieving the largest hollow in the first place.

It is important to realise that grinding takes steel from inside the bevel face, and does not remove steel from the length of the blade. There seems to be a misconception that grinding reduces the length of a blade - it might it one is a beginner or ham-fisted.

The second misconception is that there is a big danger in overheating the edge and losing temper. This is possible, even on CBN wheels. However it really takes a LOT of heat to change temper. Getting hot in your hand does not count. The CBN wheel was a game changer, partly because it is a big heat sink. The bottom line is that learning to hollow is like any skill, and once learned it offers advantages.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Stenzel]

There is no one right way. The work doesn't care how you get it sharp. It only needs to be a sharp intersection of the bevel, and back side.

Please, don't try to talk sense. This is the internet where the short people that live under bridges come out!;)

To answer the original question, I don't have any modern alloys and use oil stones. The result:

Do you grind as soon as the arc is gone- No.

Do you grind every time you sharpen- NO!

How long does it take you to maintain a blade, ie 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes- Too long. But for me sharpening is when I relax and think about what I'm trying accomplish. Grinding happens to repair a chip and using just the stones would take forever. Once I blued the corner of my #7 iron with my grinder, really ticked me off. Other than that I've had no problem with the normal gray wheels.

My sharpening could be better.

-Tom

[Warren Mickley]

None of my chisels have been put to an electric grinder since I acquired them. I sharpen full flat bevel every time. It takes me about 70 seconds to sharpen a chisel and I do the same routine every time, which I think is good for developing intimacy with the tools.

I don't agree that all methods are equal. Some techniques are designed for the less skilled (master sharpening in a weekend workshop), some are inefficient, some are used by those who are not so discerning, some work is not so demanding as others. Some claim they can grind on a wheel without damaging the chisel and then seem to need special steel to get edge longevity.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m no sharpening expert and consider myself still learning. With that said I’m pretty good at it st this point.

I will sit for 45 minutes working from 400 through a Janet finish stone. I don’t own a grinder and attribute learning to sharpen well in a short time to being forced to do it by hand.

I have also learnt to sharpen before I need to sharpen. When I’m doing something important I will stop and touch up “two stone process” say for every operation. It takes all of 30-60 seconds.

[Rob Luter]

If I need to completely restore an edge due to big nicks, chips, or other major issues, I hollow grind on my low speed grinder. Beyond that I only use flat abrasives (stones/film/diamond/strop/etc.). I can say that of my tools that have had to be ground, none have had it done more than once in the last 6-7 years. Being a hobbyist, my tooks just don't get that much wear. Periodic touch ups sustain the sharp edge.

Do you grind as soon as the arc is gone? - I haven't worn a blade that much yet
Do you grind every time you sharpen? - No
How long does it take you to maintain a blade, ie 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes? - About 30 seconds if I strop. About 5 minutes if I just dress the secondary bevel. Most of the time is used taking the iron out of the plane, placing it in the honing guide, and and putting it back in after sharpening. The time on the abrasives is very short. Stropping is performed freehand.

Since I discovered stropping, I sharpen on my abrasives less often. Prior to using a plane or chisel I'll freshen up the edge with a few strokes on the strop freehand, and then periodically during extended work sessions. It's remarkable how effective it is.

[steven c newman]

Have had plane irons come into the shop, looking like this..~....and more than a few chisels come in at a skew....I' ll grind those, to get them back to straight....and square to the side....after that...mainly oil stone and paper...then strop....unless the edge is really messed up. I try for a single, flat bevel. Maintain....usually just a strop..been known to use the pants leg of my jeans...sitting down at the bench, chopping mortises, refresh on the jeans, chop the next mortise. 5x on the bevel to 1-2 on the back. Back to work.

[James Pallas]

I did learn from this thread. If you can grind on a high speed grinder with no fear of burning no need to change. A CBN wheel is a nice feature to add. It seems about equal between maintaining flat bevel or hollow grind. Tool rests can make some difference. The amount of time spent seems to be about the same for sharpening media other than grinders. If your getting good edges be happy. The part I still don’t understand is: When someone asks the first suggestions usually involve an expensive slow speed grinding system. I think I’ll not be spending money on a system. I do have PMV irons, no chisels yet. I like the PMV 11 irons well enough that I’ll think I’ll use the cash I’ll save on the grinding system to buy some PMV 11 chisels.
Thanks Jim

[Vincent Tai]

I did learn from this thread. If you can grind on a high speed grinder with no fear of burning no need to change. A CBN wheel is a nice feature to add. It seems about equal between maintaining flat bevel or hollow grind. Tool rests can make some difference. The amount of time spent seems to be about the same for sharpening media other than grinders. If your getting good edges be happy. The part I still don’t understand is: When someone asks the first suggestions usually involve an expensive slow speed grinding system. I think I’ll not be spending money on a system. I do have PMV irons, no chisels yet. I like the PMV 11 irons well enough that I’ll think I’ll use the cash I’ll save on the grinding system to buy some PMV 11 chisels.
Thanks Jim

I don't like the idea of the Tormek and other slower speed clones and its price tag for someone starting out either. Unless they can easily spare the cash and just get every sharpening system. I do think a normal bench grinder (fast or 1800 rpm) has additional usefulness when their owner likes to make tools or work with metal every now and then.

I was working through the night today and sharpening my PMV-11 chisels a few times after this thread so I properly timed myself, I could get the time down to 20 seconds for some chisels. 30 for something that needs work on a 1000 grit sort of stone. At that point that I have to make the effort of speeding things like moving from one stone to the other and a little more speed in the strokes etc. For the bigger chisels where I rest the chisel on the hollow; I am too faint hearted to go much faster and potentially "lift off" the hollow, so 50 seconds give or take.

I like this thread. Warren's times for his flat bevel chisels are something I'll be keeping in mind for my set of chisels with flat bevels. I think I'll be stuck at being at least twice as slow (3-4 times slower for the big chisels) for a long while but nevertheless a decade later and perhaps my efficiency might go up a tick.

[William Fretwell]

I did buy a Tormek like copy with a water wheel, but not for sharpening, grinding mis-formed stainless corners from a drawing process. I have used it once for a chipped corner on a Japanese chisel.

I find my diamond plates followed by stones very fast for my regular and high speed steel. I found A2 steel would stay almost sharp for a long time but I prefer to work with very sharp and hone so have given up on A2.

My D2 pig stickers work well with my manual sharpening also, hollow grinding those would be counter productive.

My timber frame chisels have a rounded bevel. I currently see no place for grinding outside of a major repair.

[lowell holmes]

I have diamond hones that do a great job. I have three grades from coarse to fine. My edges never see a grinder unless they are dropped and chipped.

[Rob Luter]

I did learn from this thread. If you can grind on a high speed grinder with no fear of burning no need to change. A CBN wheel is a nice feature to add. It seems about equal between maintaining flat bevel or hollow grind. Tool rests can make some difference. The amount of time spent seems to be about the same for sharpening media other than grinders. If your getting good edges be happy. The part I still don’t understand is: When someone asks the first suggestions usually involve an expensive slow speed grinding system. I think I’ll not be spending money on a system. I do have PMV irons, no chisels yet. I like the PMV 11 irons well enough that I’ll think I’ll use the cash I’ll save on the grinding system to buy some PMV 11 chisels.
Thanks Jim

Slow speed doesn’t mean expensive. I use a variable speed Delta from the Borg and I get great results.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5511/12016227873_7c0db0c76f_b.jpg

[Jerry Olexa]

I don't grind unless there is damage (a chip, uneven edges etc.). Your sharpening regimine should handle most of your needs IMHO.

[Steve Voigt]

I think it depends entirely on how you sharpen, what kind of stones you use, and what kind of grinder you have. Changing any of these variables is likely to change the result. You should find a grinding method that fits with your stones and your technique.
I use oilstones and high speed 8" dry grinder. When sharpening, I locate the hollow on the stone (starting with a medium India), then lift approximately 5° and raise a burr. I work the back, then repeat on a trans Ark, flatten the back again, and strop. With say a 1" chisel, I'm typically taking only 3-5 strokes on each stone, so it's very fast.
For this technique to work, it's important to keep the secondary bevel small. When the secondary is more than an eighth of an inch wide, it becomes a chore, and I go back to the grinder. I grind until the secondary is almost, but not quite, gone (see pic below). For the chisels shown, it probably takes 2-3 minutes to grind, including setting the angle.
I probably get 15-20 honings in before I have to grind. My most used chisels probably go back to the grinder every 2-4 weeks. I am at the bench nearly full time, so for the evenings/weekends woodworker, trips to the grinder would be far less frequent.
If you're not honing at a higher angle than you grind at, or if you're using the "convex bevel" method, it makes sense to grind less frequently. Same is true if you're using water or diamond stones. So again, my advice is not to look for general answers, but to find an approach that fits with your system.

400430

[James Pallas]

I started this thread because it seemed to me that when the subject comes up the advice is a power sharpener system not a grinder but a system. As I said I tried one, don't need to mention the brand. I could have sung Marty Robbins' "El Passo" 2 or 3 times in the time it took to grind a 3/4" chisel. I've worked with grinders a lot, both high and low speed. There were not many small low speed grinders around. 8" and up mostly. I'm just fine with a high speed and don't use that often. I'm surprised that there are so many that use grinders seldom in the replies. I thought I was missing something so I asked. I got good answers I think. It seems to me that systems are somewhat of a luxury item by the replies. I'm good to go with what I do. Not going to change anything. No speed secret that I can see from replies.
Jim

[Andrew Seemann]

I redo the hollow grind based on a precise mathematical formula derived from the intersection of curves representing the amount of time it takes to hone and the amount of time it takes to regrind the hollow modified by a coefficient representing my general level of impatience at that point in time (I got the Big Bang Theory DVD set for Christmas and am letting out my inner Sheldon :) ).

Basically, I only regrind the hollow if the edge is messed up or I loose patience at how long it takes to touch up the edge. For some tools it could be every few months, and others, every few years. Usually I wait to do a bunch of chisels and planes at once.

I have a Tormek, that I got cheap on super closeout from Rockler a dozen years ago, for doing the hollow grinds. I learned on water stones and could go back to that method if I had to (like if they banned electricity), but I prefer the ease and no-brain simplicity of the Tormek.

I've tried basically every method of sharpening (including using concrete floor), and have a drawerful of stuff to prove it; the only method I really don't like is sandpaper. Everything else was at least passable, though my preferred way is Tormek for the hollow grind, water stones to hone/touch up the cutting bevel, and the leather Tormek wheel with that Tormek toothpaste to strop.

[ken hatch]

I started this thread because it seemed to me that when the subject comes up the advice is a power sharpener system not a grinder but a system. As I said I tried one, don't need to mention the brand. I could have sung Marty Robbins' "El Passo" 2 or 3 times in the time it took to grind a 3/4" chisel. I've worked with grinders a lot, both high and low speed. There were not many small low speed grinders around. 8" and up mostly. I'm just fine with a high speed and don't use that often. I'm surprised that there are so many that use grinders seldom in the replies. I thought I was missing something so I asked. I got good answers I think. It seems to me that systems are somewhat of a luxury item by the replies. I'm good to go with what I do. Not going to change anything. No speed secret that I can see from replies.
Jim

Jim,

You are correct there is only one set of secrets to sharpening and it has nothing to do with stones or grinders. The secret is developing your eye and your fingers. You can see and feel sharp. If it looks sharp and feels sharp it is sharp and if you can not see and feel all the grinders, jigs, and stones are just so much mumbo jumbo. Of course as always with all thing wood and in life I'm likely full of it and YMMV.

Good decision to just keep on keeping on.

Good thread,

ken