My new, CNC controlled sliding table saw.

[Jessica de Boer]

A company in a nearby town is closing its doors and they're selling all their machines. I knew they have a SCM CNC controlled sliding table saw so I went over to take a look at it. It's in perfect shape and there are 6 saw blades that go with it. I was able to negotiate a good deal and now it's mine. It has 400mm saw blade, it can handle wood op to 3200mm in length, and it has electronically controlled height and angle adjustment.

https://i.imgur.com/3pJZkbv.jpg

[Mike Cutler]

Nice!!
Congratulations on your new saw. I don't know much about sliders, but that looks like a very well built machine. CNC obviously takes it to a different level.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Wow, what a machine!

And the dust collector in the background looks pretty impressive, too. Who makes that?

[Jessica de Boer]

I don't know much about sliders, but that looks like a very well built machine.
SCM is an Italian company that makes very high quality machines comparable to Altendorf but a lower price. It can also store 99 different programs. I don't think I will use that feature much though.


And the dust collector in the background looks pretty impressive, too. Who makes that?
It's made by Höcker Polytechnik. This model is the Vacumobil 180.

[Jim Becker]

You scored a really excellent machine there, Jessica! You're going to enjoy working with it as you create your extraordinarily good project results. Congratulations!

I'm personally an SCM/Minimax fan (and user), so no complaints from me on that part!

[Jessica de Boer]

Yep, it's a great machine. Everything runs super smooth and the CNC controls make like so easy.

Btw, does this machine exist in the US?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUAi3rkqdzc

Edit: Apparently the machine in the Youtube video is called a slot mortising machine.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Make a Fritz and Franz jig for holding smaller pieces of wood and possibly air clamps and you will be amazed at your new saw’s capabilities. Not sure if you are new to a slider? You may already know all this.

Congrats.

[Steve Jenkins]

Just color me jealous. Great saw

[Jessica de Boer]

Not sure if you are new to a slider? You may already know all this.

Indeed I do ;)

[David Kumm]

look at airtightclamps. com. Mac is running a year end sale. The quality is second to none. Dave

[Jessica de Boer]

look at airtightclamps. com. Mac is running a year end sale. The quality is second to none. Dave

Similar clamps are available where I live so I'm not going to order something from the US which most likely needs to be adapted to the pneumatic connections we use here. Apart from that I don't need pneumatic clamps.

[John Densmore]

What is CNC on the saw? What is the computer controlling? My imagination just can't figure out what this thing can do.

[Matt Mattingley]

What is CNC on the saw? What is the computer controlling? My imagination just can't figure out what this thing can do. usually in this type of machine it is blade height, blade tilt, and fence offset. Sometimes the computer will hold a thousand different preset programs. Some machines have programmable mitre angle and programmable stop on the mitre. Some bigger screen displays even show you where to place the wood and will move it into a locking position.

[Tom Bain]

Wow, that is a sweet saw. Great score. Out of curiosity, why was the other shop closing down?

[Martin Wasner]

usually in this type of machine it is blade height, blade tilt, and fence offset. Sometimes the computer will hold a thousand different preset programs. Some machines have programmable mitre angle and programmable stop on the mitre. Some bigger screen displays even show you where to place the wood and will move it into a locking position.

I think what John is getting at is it's NC, not CNC. There no program that runs, only stored settings.

[Jim Becker]

I think what John is getting at is it's NC, not CNC. There no program that runs, only stored settings.
Yes, I believe that's a more accurate description. Regardless...that's a very nice tool!

[Peter Christensen]

If it was CNC wouldn't one be able to have the blade angle change as the table was advanced to the end of the cut thus creating a twist/spiral? That would make for some interesting table leg and edge treatments. Yes I know a blade with extra wide kerf would be needed to prevent friction burning. ;)

Nice purchase. I'll never have that kind of real estate in a shop for one of those but I'm still a bit envious.

[Peter Kelly]

SCM is an Italian company that makes very high quality machines comparable to Altendorf but a lower price.Some priced similarly as well.
https://www.scmgroup.com/en_GB/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/l-invincibile-six.778

[Nick Decker]

We need a new forum called "Aircraft Carriers."

[Martin Wasner]

If it was CNC wouldn't one be able to have the blade angle change as the table was advanced to the end of the cut thus creating a twist/spiral? That would make for some interesting table leg and edge treatments. Yes I know a blade with extra wide kerf would be needed to prevent friction burning. ;)


You'd be better off doing something like that on a cnc with a C axis. Or, a cnc with a 4th axis lathe type attachment.

[Chris Parks]

I think what John is getting at is it's NC, not CNC. There no program that runs, only stored settings.

Yes, I am building an NC router table at the moment which holds the jobs in memory. Big difference between the two. Nice saw BTW, enjoy.

[Derek Cohen]

In the past I avoided visiting the Power Tool forum as I found it so intimidating. It still is intimidating! :) What intimidates me is that I assume many here are professional woodworkers, since the machinery on display - not just this thread - is Big and Expensive. Often Very Big and Very Expensive.

As an amateur, albeit one with over 30 years designing and building furniture, my aspirations are met (even exceeded) with the Hammer machines I have. Indeed, there are many professionals who would be happy to have what I own. Further, I know many professional who get by with minimal or very basic machines. Even further still, there are professionals with few pieces of equipment and do as much as possible with hand tools. It is horses for courses.

As a professional (just in a different line of work), the nature of profitablity is a simple equation: make more than you spend. My question is, how long does it take to make a machine (and several) costing in the five (or more) digits pay for itself? Does it ever? Are these machines really necessary, and when so? Factory production? Boutique maker?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Martin Wasner]

My question is, how long does it take to make a machine (and several) costing in the five (or more) digits pay for itself?

Like anything, it depends. Eliminating bottle necks is typically why you dump capital into a problem. Some are bigger than others. There's many factors as well. Does it do a job faster? Better? Can it be done by a lower skilled/paid worker? Does it open doors to a new and more profitable product?

Let's say you make drawers. You might start by making them from plywood and rabbeting them together. You want to upgrade your drawers to dovetail, and spend $500 on a jig and router. You're now making a higher end product the capital outlay was minimal, but it's labor intensive. So you spend $10k on an automatic dovetailer. It is more than twice as fast, and a monkey can operate it. Now you're cranking a product out with better margins, and low inputs.

I've found it scales for me.



Does it ever?

It better, a business can survive a finite number of poor decisions. My old widebelt took six passes to sand a cabinet door, and had a slow feed rate. My current widebelt takes four passes, and has a faster feed rate. Secondary sanding operations go more quickly as well. It was $40k, I don't think it took more than a year to pay for itself.
My router new was about $120,000. I bought it used and have about $65k into it. On my best day I could turn a sheet of plywood into cabinet parts in about 35 minutes. Usually about 45, I wasn't cutting nailers, stretchers, or shelves in that either. The router will do it in about 5-6 minutes of operation time and another 5-6 to unload/label parts, clean the spoilboard, and load the next sheet 12 minutes versus 45 minutes. Process 500 sheets a year and that saves at least 250 hours of labor. At least. The parts are perfect, that saves time on assembly. Shelves don't have to be measured and cut after assembly and potentially incur errors Nailers and stretchers aren't cut at the bench, that saves time and potential errors. There are essentially ZERO errors by the machine, (programming is another story). Say it'll conservatively save 500 hours a year for me, at minimum that's worth $50,000 to me. But wait, there's more. It opens doors to different kinds of work I couldn't competitively do. It frees up my time personally to keep seek out more work.




Are these machines really necessary, and when so?

If a business isn't growing, it's dying.




Factory production? Boutique maker?

I like to think we're both. Approaching manufacturing from a production attitude at any scale is a wise move. My shop has the equipment and space to handle probably double the number of bodies it currently has, I just haven't created opportunity to do so yet. I'm not fully utilizing my investment, but it carries very little debt, is profitable, and I can mentally manage it (mostly). I've got a very nice shop, a good crew, and we can hammer an excellent product out the door.

[Mike Henderson]

That's a great machine. I had the opportunity to use a similar one once. I was amazed at the accuracy of the machine.

Great purchase.

Mike

[Patrick Walsh]

Derek I don’t know much as I’m just a worker bee.

I am the shop manager though so I do understand pricing, time frame to build, finish, instal, materials costs, rent monthly payroll costs so forth and so on.

I’ll say this, our average project is probably somewhere between $35-50K we do an number of $80-100K projects a year also. We also do the random one off entertainment center bath vanity hutch and or whatever we can get paid enough to build and turn a profit.

The point Im trying to make is I’d say the average $45-$65k job probably takes out two man shop with a boss that installs with a helper about two months from the time we comense building till the time it’s instaled and we can expect a final payment.

Much of anything can be built with a cabinet saw and pile of router tables. With nobody in our shop making less than $30 hr some of us more, payed holidays, vacations, overtime pay as it always a nessity to meet deadlines it can be very very hard to turn a profit. Paying guys to mess about with junk heaps of machines is a waste. Labor is by far way more expensive that any tool any day. There is a cut off point though where the machines exceed the cost of the labor. The good news is very very nice used machinery can be had for relatively short money when talking about running a business.

The bellow machine was purchased for $9K it cost $3K to get it for the west to east coast and into our shop. It then took me two days to remove our old machine and setup and calibrate this machine. Our shop is on the fourth floor of a old mill building so moving it was kinda fun. The two days of setup was my Christmas gift to my boss for being well such a good boss and bending over backward for us.

400252

So I don’t have a direct answer for your question but the machinery is not the most expensive aspect of running a custom cabinet furniture business he labor is! It’s also not as expensive as it looks if you get savvy sourcing it used. That jointer in the background is mine and financed it did cost me $28600. Will it every pay for itself being i work for someone and just wanted it and do t need it. Not a chance! In my experience and at least in our shop we all do what we do by choice because it’s what we like to do. Money is far from any of our sole motivators in life. If money was our driving force I think we all would had chosen to do something else. I for one can’t even fake doing something I don’t actually won’t to do for maker than a few years before I self combust. I’m notmrelaly a fan of box cabinetry, plywood or pocket screws, cnc machines and the like. But I’ll tell you this, since I have been making canierty for a living not one day has ever felt like work and I average 65-70 hrs a week and am taking my first vacation right now that I have had in over three years.

I used to build houses frame to finish and man that was hell. Hated every minute of it!


se
In the past I avoided visiting the Power Tool forum as I found it so intimidating. It still is intimidating! :) What intimidates me is that I assume many here are professional woodworkers, since the machinery on display - not just this thread - is Big and Expensive. Often Very Big and Very Expensive.

As an amateur, albeit one with over 30 years designing and building furniture, my aspirations are met (even exceeded) with the Hammer machines I have. Indeed, there are many professionals who would be happy to have what I own. Further, I know many professional who get by with minimal or very basic machines. Even further still, there are professionals with few pieces of equipment and do as much as possible with hand tools. It is horses for courses.

As a professional (just in a different line of work), the nature of profitablity is a simple equation: make more than you spend. My question is, how long does it take to make a machine (and several) costing in the five (or more) digits pay for itself? Does it ever? Are these machines really necessary, and when so? Factory production? Boutique maker?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Martin Wasner]

If money was our driving force I think we all would had chosen to do something else.
se

Cabinet makers do it because they enjoy it. The knowledge base needs to be big, the pay sucks, and dangers are present.

[Will Boulware]

Congrats on the saw! I think the majority of us are pretty envious. Your work is fantastic, and I hope this beast gives you even more capability and flexibility.

[Chris Parks]

I had a fair bit to do with a fully CNC metal fabrication shop building trailers and first thing that became obvious was we never had to measure anything and everything that came off the machines fitted with no re-work needed. The labour involved was two people and beyond knowing the chassis dimensions and height we never did picked up a tape and I can't begin to think how much faster, more accurate and how not having to massage pieces to fit made our life. I don't know the cost/benefit but until you have worked in an environment like that it is very hard to understand the benefits.

[Jessica de Boer]

@ Patrick Walsh: Martin also makes very nice machines.

The purchase of this machine was purely because of the time saving and repeatable accuracy. I also already had a buyer for my old saw so that made the monetary impact smaller.

By the way, I calibrated the cross cut arm for squareness and the deviation is now 0.2mm over a length of 4 metres. Close enough for me.

[glenn bradley]

Awesome machine and sure to be an immediate benefit. Congrats!

[Jim Becker]

In the past I avoided visiting the Power Tool forum as I found it so intimidating. It still is intimidating! :) What intimidates me is that I assume many here are professional woodworkers, since the machinery on display - not just this thread - is Big and Expensive. Often Very Big and Very Expensive.
Derek, the real mix of folks is very broad with the majority likely hobbyists. I personally only became "professional" (IE, working for money) recently. Yea, I do have some nice stuff in my shop, but that was because I had the opportunity and means a number of years ago (pre-kids) and knew I wouldn't be able to do the same post-retirement. I actually like the mix of folks who post. There is a lot to learn from everyone...even when a particular tool isn't in the cards for the reader, learning about it can be enriching.

[John Densmore]

Thanks for the information on how the machine works. It seems like it could be a real benefit to a production shop.

[Carl Beckett]

Derek, the real mix of folks is very broad with the majority likely hobbyists. I personally only became "professional" (IE, working for money) recently. Yea, I do have some nice stuff in my shop, but that was because I had the opportunity and means a number of years ago (pre-kids) and knew I wouldn't be able to do the same post-retirement. I actually like the mix of folks who post. There is a lot to learn from everyone...even when a particular tool isn't in the cards for the reader, learning about it can be enriching.

This gets off topic of this thread, but imo is worthy of a different thread so will start one.

[Michael Costa]

Whoa. Not only is that thing cool... but you have a ton of spotless space for it. I'm impressed by both.